Either way, by culturing the said stem cells for a short period of time, one can increase their numbers exponentially. It really isn't very hard to increase the number of stem cells found in 10ccof fat tissue 1000 fold. For example, a thousand cells can be turned into a million cells with the right culturing solution, incubation temperature and time management. Think of what a 1000X viable cell mass can do for the skin in comparison to what has already been achieved with the traditional fat transfer procedure...
BRD
BRD,
I want to say a heartfelt THANK YOU for your COMPASSION, TIME, and ENERGY put into informing us the latest in Stem Cell medical technology for scar remodeling. This is really the most promising treatment for acne scaring I have heard in a VERY long time. You are a great treasure on this board and we are so fortunate to have you with us!
Please stay with us and keep us informed with your latest update.
I am considering the treatment at SEISHIN Regenerative Medicine Center in Japan.
http://www.saisei-iryou.com/english/cellantiaging/
But after reading about the procedure outlined on their website, I have one question.
I understand that The Celution System allows automated, precise separation and extraction of adipose tissue-derived stem cells... However, there was NO mention on their website that, after the extraction, the cells are then cultured for a period of time to increase their numbers exponentially... in order to achieve the maximum result in regeneration.
In fact, it even appears that in SEISHIN, the extracted stem cells are (or can be) injected to the scar immediately after its extraction (thus leaving no time for culturing).
In reading your introduction (your first post) on mysenchymal stem cells, I was under the impression that culturing the mysenchymal stem cells to increase its number by 1000s is an essential step of this procedure to yield maximum result in scar remodeling.
In your opinion, Is Seishin missing this important step? I would think unlikely. But why this step of culturing to increase numbers of mysenchymal stem cells not described in their procedure?
Or maybe I am missing something here? For example, can the Celution not only extract but also culture the mysenchymal stem cells to increase its numbers?
I can imagine your inbox must be flooded with questions. But I hope I hear from you. THANK YOU.
Hi 2012,
Thank you for the kind words.
The Seishin centre uses a different method to increase the concentration of stem cells. They take about 200 cc of adipose tissue and extract the stem cells by way of the Celution machine. This leaves them with just a few cc of stem cells that are then added to a few cc of adipose tissue. What ends up happening is that a small volume of fat (ie: 5-10 cc) now contains the equivalent amount of stem cells present in alot more fat (200 cc). Thus the relative increase in MSCs is approximately 20-40X.
I have made the conscious choice to culture the MSCs in order to increase their numbers substantially more than this. However it does take more time to do and the extra steps in the process does increase the probability that errors will be made along the way. I suppose it all depends on how comfortable a physician is working with live cellular cultures... That said, Seishin does culture gingival and dermal fibroblasts, so I don't see a reason why they wouldn't be able to learn to culture MSCs. It's probably a matter of economics rather then a technical one. You can ask them if you are interested. I should also be very specific about the fact that even a 10X increase in stem cells per cc of injectable solution will make quite a positive difference when combined with adipose tissue.
I also suggest you talk to some of your local docs if they are willing to try stem cell injections before you decide to make a jump to the Far East.
All the best,
BRD
I forgot to mention, in my previous post comparing Isolagen by Aoluosi in Beijin and Cellution by Seishin in Japan,
Seishin recombines fat and adipose-derived stem cells for injection, whereas there was no mention of similar procedure (i.e. recombining fat and fibroblast culture) before injection on Aoluosi's website...
Another questions for BRD, you mentioned that similar stem cell therapy to that you outlined at the top of this thread is already available in Eastern Europe, Russia, China, Korea, Taiwan etc.
So far related procedure has only been located in Japan. (Since Aoluosi in China offers Isolagen, not stem cell treatment). I am still searching for clinics in China, Korea, and Taiwan that offers it. I was born and raised in Taiwan and speak Chinese, Taiwanese, and some Japanese + I also have many of my Korean students searching for it for me in Korea... But so far no success. There was only a news clip saying that Taiwan may approve similar procedure in 2009 but then no news so far.
What source of info do you have re: stem-cell therapy for acne scar is available in Taiwan, China, and Korea (perhaps also Hong Kong)? Do you have any pointers you can give me to facilitate locating the services in these countries, such as names of clinics, doctors, research or clinical medical associates etc.... anything...?
I will certainly ask Seishin this question too when I call them, but they may not be so wiling to give information on competitors in neighbouring countries, even if they do have such info.
Also, can you provide clinic contacts in Eastern Europe or Russia? Thanks.
Summary: Some Important Points of the Isolagen Procedure offered in Beijing by AoluosiI have looked into the Chinese website (from which the before/after photos in BRD's post that started this thread). Since I read Chinese, I have summarized in brief translation the important points on the procedure below,
info source: http://www.aoluosi.com/detail/5563.html
The important point is: what is injected into your scars is your own fibroblast cultured to a large number (which, to me, seems NOT the stem cells or mesenchymal cells BRD described.) + growth factors sourced from your own blood.
1) The procedure is indeed Isolagen. There is an English article on Aoluosi's website:
http://www.aoluosi.com/detail/5546.html
The Chinese name used for this procedure in scar remodeling in Aolusi is .
2) 10 cc of your blood + a skin sample from the back of your ear (size 0.3 cm*1 cm) is taken and cultured at China's GMP lab for 6-8 weeks, until the fibroblast content reaches the concentration at 20,000,000/ml.
23 different growth factors sourced from your blood, including EGF, FGF, IGF-1,PDGF-AB, TGF-beta, VEGF will also be injected to stimulate regeneration. [but I am not sure if the Growth Factors are combined with the fibroblast culture or if they are injected separately]
3) The above is then injected into the site of the scars. 3 injections are required and each of them 17 days apart.
4) A comprehensive range of cosmeticeutical topical such and supplements are prescribed (and sold to the patient, I assume) by Aolusi to be used in conjunction with the procedure.
5) Aolusi, the clinic in Beijin, claims to be the only one officially authorized by the Chinese government to provide the procedure in China. The director of Aolusi is Japan trained Chinese scientist/surgeon, who received his PH.d in Cosmetic (??) Surgery from Kyoto University. Aolusi claims that it has performed this procedure on thousands of patients with success.
6) Cost is according to the volume of the final culture you need, therefore dependent on how many scars/how large or deep the scars etc. 1 ml costs $6600 RNB = $964.884 USD = $1,185.96 CAD
7) how long the result lasts, in some places it says 3-5 years, in other places it says 5-10 years (more for wrinkles) and there is also mentioning of semi-permanent or permanent results on their website.
7) You can pay an extra $235/year for Isolagen to store your cells for future use.
Now compare Isolagen by Aoluosi and Cellution at SEISHIN.
http://www.saisei-iryou.com/english/cellantiaging/
From my research so far, SEISHIN's procedure is closer to the stem cell therapy BRD described. because it actually uses adipose-derived stem cells. The Isolagen at Aolusi, Beijin uses fibroblast (albeit cultured to a large number), NOT stem cells.
However, SEISHIN does NOT culture the adipose-derived cells extracted by Cellution to a large number before injecting. SEISHIN says it is not necessary when using the Cellution. WHY? I don't know. (BRD, if you are reading this please help us on to clarify this?)
from SEISHIN's website:
"In transplantation of adipose tissue-derived stem cells with the Celution System, stem cells are accurately extracted from fat collected from the abdomen or thighs and injected together with injectable fat.
At the injection sites, stem cells produce the unique effects of angiogenesis and differentiate into adipocytes to form adipose tissue, thereby achieving very high rates of fat graft survival and providing sustained benefit. Unlike injection of fibroblasts that requires long-term culture, transplantation of adipose tissue-derived stem cells allows real-time treatment. A series of processes from liposuction to extraction and injection of stem cells are performed during a single clinical visit (about 3 hours), and re-injections are not necessary. In fibroblast injection, injectable sites are limited, and medical costs increase substantially with increasing injection sites. In our procedures, however, about 100 cc of injectable fat (adipose tissue-derived stem cells) is harvested in one fat collection session, and thus costs for one session are sufficient for injection into multiple sites."
At SEISHIN, Cellution procedure costs 1 million yen regardless of numbers of sites requiring injections. I will be calling SEISHIN and Aoluosi to ask many questions. If anyone has questions you would like me to ask, please post.
Please look at my above post as it answers some of your questions.
I already promised Tofu to clarify the information I received from the Aoluosi Clinic. The very fact that they work with fibroblasts is actually quite positive simply because it means they have experience working with cellular cultures. However as I said before, the original information clearly stated that they increase fat graft survival by utilizing an increased amount of stem cells. I'll update you after I talk to them.
?
BRD,
Thanks for your reply. I just happened to notice you have just spent a few hours here replying to people.... I am grateful for (and intrigued by) your enthusiasm and dedication... From your photo (if it's you) you look like you have perfect skin, so I assume you are only here to help others with your professional expertise and for what you believe....
Far East is Home-sweet-home for me! Going to the Far East for treatment would be a gift to take me away from the white-washed North American society that I have long yearn to escape. (not a racist comment here, "white" here refers not to race, but the mainstream psycho-socio-economic-cultural-spiritual conditions in North America, that I find mostly uninteresting).
1) Trying to find the top 2% of skilled-artistic-compassionate doctors on your bell curve is not easy. 2) And trying to convince 99% of doctors here to do anything out of their status quote or comfort zone, without being able to offer them either remarkable fame or sizable money is next to impossible. (Like you said, Brad Pitt can pull it off, but not likely for people like us.)
So you add 1) and 2) together, it takes no math genius to show how slim the probability is.
For example, all cosmetic surgeons I have seen just want to push the most expensive of what they offer (usually laser procedures) down my throat. 
I think a better approach to help initiate the change in NA or West Europe is:
Let's organize a group from Acne.org to the Far East, Eastern Europe, Russia for treatment, create a unified and detailed template to document the treatment and result, using photos, videos, blogs etc. Then we will put up a website to continuously collect these case documents as they become available. Then we can all refer all our derms and docs to go to that website to see for themselves case after case, not just one, but many results treated with different stem-cell therapy methods in different countries - thereby raising their awareness and hopefully inspire them enough to try it.
What do you think? 
However, Cellution at SEISHIN Is very expensive: about $15,000 USD (Cellution +PRP), yet it is the only procedure in the world I am able to locate so car that offers anything close to stem-cell therapy. If the Cellution method only increases the MSC by 20- 40 times, it just does not seem good enough for the price it's asking. Even though you said increase the MSC even by 10 time would have a positive difference, but you must have a good reason for your decision to increase the MSC by far more in your method? Do we have an established data re: what amount or concentration of MSC will yield best result, or any related research that can help us at arriving at such data?
It would suck to spend $15,000 USD but fail to get the max result--- because it is not 'economic' or ''comfortable' for them to work with live culture.
So even though Cellution offers real-time advantages of almost immediate transfer, in comparison, traditional method of extraction and culturing in a lab may be more cost effective and I assume the amount of MSC can be adjusted to the desired level. This brings me to the idea of getting the treatment in East Europe and Russia, if the procedure is being offered there.... Have always wanted to visit Eastern Europe and this may just be the opportunity.... 
BRD, can you suggest any clue as to where, who, how to find optimal procedure in Eastern Europe or Russia or anywhere else in the world for that matter? Someone who is at the top 2% of the bell curve by your standard? If it's not kosher to post that here, please PM me.
As always, thank you for the inspirations that you are.
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hey BRD
Yes i am going for PRP..but im also preparing for the prp combined with the stem cell injection should i need it:)..he showed me pics of his results with both..he knew about the celution machine..he said hes ordered it and it should be in the clininc by the end of this month. right now he sends the fat and its stem cells to be cultured to a clinic in cambridge. So either way if this doesnt get the results im looking for ill have the 2nd hit ..i would probably be doing the prp/stem cell combo in early april if im not satisified with the results i get on the 6th ( and ongoing as i shoulod continue to improve)
Thanks again BRD..and ill keep all you guys updated..i tried msging heidi but she hasnt replied yet..she saw dr khan yesterday
Hi
So I went and he suggested Fractional CO2 laser followed by the blood injections. He said I could do the stem cell bit if I wanted. I said I did.
He has to get a quote for me as he needs to send the stem cells off to another lab. I saw pictures of the blood injections and they looked good. A older man with dark skin and deep scars went from severe to moderate in a month. He says the healing continues. I didnt see pictures of the stem cell injections.
I said I would do the CO2 at a later date and would prefer to do the blood injections and stem cells first. I am wating to hear back from him before I make any decisions.
I will report back more once I get more information.
thanks
Heidi
BRD,Thanks for your reply. I just happened to notice you have just spent a few early morning hours (assuming you are in Bulgaria) here replying to people.... I am grateful for (and intrigued by) your enthusiasm and dedication...especially from your photo you look like you have perfect skin, so I assume you are only here to help others and for what you believe....
Far East is Home-sweet-home for me! Going to the Far East for treatment would be a gift to take me away from the white-washed North American society that I have long yearn to escape. (not a racist comment here, "white" here refers not to race, but the mainstream psycho-socio-economic-cultural-spiritual conditions in North America, that I find mostly uninteresting).
1) Trying to find the top 2% of skilled-artistic-compassionate doctors on your bell curve is not easy. 2) And trying to convince 99% of doctors here to do anything out of their status quote or comfort zone, without being able to offer them either remarkable fame or sizable money is next to impossible. (Like you said, Brad Pitt can pull it off, but not likely for people like us.)
So you add 1) and 2) together, it takes no math genius to show how slim the probability is.
For example, all cosmetic surgeons I have seen just want to push the most expensive of what they offer (usually laser procedures) down my throat.
I think a better approach to help initiate the change in NA or West Europe is:
Let's organize a group from Acne.org to the Far East, Eastern Europe, Russia for treatment, create a unified and detailed template to document the treatment and result, using photos, videos, blogs etc. Then we will put up a website to continuously collect these case documents as they become available. Then we can all refer all our derms and docs to go to that website to see for themselves case after case, not just one, but many results treated with different stem-cell therapy methods in different countries - thereby raising their awareness and hopefully inspire them enough to try it.
What do you think? 😉
However, Cellution at SEISHIN Is very expensive: about $15,000 USD (Cellution +PRP), yet it is the only procedure in the world I am able to locate so car that offers anything close to stem-cell therapy. If the Cellution method only increases the MSC by 20- 40 times, it just does not seem good enough for the price it's asking. Even though you said increase the MSC even by 10 time would have a positive difference, but you must have a good reason for your decision to increase the MSC by far more in your method? Do we have an established data re: what amount or concentration of MSC will yield best result, or any related research that can help us at arriving at such data?
It would suck to spend $15,000 USD but fail to get the max result--- because it is not 'economic' or ''comfortable' for them to work with live culture.
So even though Cellution offers real-time advantages of almost immediate transfer, in comparison, traditional method of extraction and culturing in a lab may be more cost effective and I assume the amount of MSC can be adjusted to the desired level. This brings me to the idea of getting the treatment in East Europe and Russia, if the procedure is being offered there.... Have always wanted to visit Eastern Europe and this may just be the opportunity....
BRD, can you suggest where, who, how would I find optimal procedure in Eastern Europe or Russia? Someone who is at the top 2% of the bell curve by your standard? If it's not kosher to post that here, please PM me.
As always, thank you for the inspirations that you are.
2012,
I know it's tough finding a good plastic surgeon or dermatologist, especially when looking beyong the glass ceiling of traditional and largely ineffective scar revision treatments. Thus I think your idea of starting a group to document such procedures is good. You could also talk to holdontohope who is starting a not for profit organization focused on regenerative medicine specifically in the field of scarless dermal regeneration.
As for Seishin, I agree it is very expensive. I suppose it's because the Celution tech is very new and few doctors have purchased it. Often times doctors/clinics that are doing something others aren't doing will raise the prices to get maximal benefit from being innovators in their geographic market area. Unfortunately that's the dark side of capitalism in the short-term. Fortunately in the long-term the bright side of capitalism comes forth as the potential success and profitability of the treatment will stimulate more doctors to start emulating the market leaders, which in turn leads to increased competition, economies of scale and finally lower prices.
BTW, with regard to the Asia Pacific region, I believe that Cytori has been marketing their technology there quite aggressively. Here's an article where you can read about this and it certainly mentions Korea and China: http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/106365...work/index.html
Since Cytori is an American company, I would expect them to be marketing to North American physicians as well. In fact I would be surprised if North America is not their primary target market. The only hurdle for them to overcome is the globally famous stringent regulatory approval process in the US and Canada. Not sure how far along they are in this regard.
So if a doctor you know thinks that stem cell therapy for dermal deficits is something straight out of your imagination, you could simply tell him about Cytori. This is perhaps the easiest way to get any doctor to believe that what you are saying is indeed a reality. The company would be more than willing to send him/her their sales material.
Anyway, I'm not going to be using the Celution tech because it's not necessary. Yes it automates many of the initial steps, but I am not exactly willing to make the investment (I am still young and poor) when I know that with some focused training my assistant and I will be able to do it well, albeit a little slower than what the Celution system offers. Plus the Celution system is not designed to aide with culturing... So I say it's an expensive toy like a Ferrari, whereas my way is more like a Ford Escort. 🙂 In my case all it took to get things off the ground in a theoretical sense was consulting with staff at the Sofia University (faculty of Biology) along with a few casual contacts at the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences who were helpful with some advice on bio-incubators, stem cell growth solution types and suppliers, etc...
I will look into doctors doing this in Eastern Europe and see if I can get you some info. Nonetheless, it would seem that Dr. Khan who will be treating icaretohelp soon, is adept at both PRP and MSCs procedures. Apparently a lab in the Cambridge does the culturing for him... Heidi55 also went to visit him, so perhaps she will soon update us about how her first impressions.
I also looked more carefully at the Aoluosi Clinic's website and found some information on their treatment for acne scars. I've posted the link below:
http://www.aoluosi.com/detail/6994.html
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are talking about fibroblasts, stem cells and adipose tissue. Anyway sounds to me like the information I was initially given some time ago.
I am OK at Chinese. From the age of 18 to 21, I did some semesters on and off abroad in China (Nanjing University and Harbin Normal University) and Taiwan (Taizhong) as I was interested in the Chinese culture and Mandarin language. Believe it or not medschool was not my first love, but more like something I did due to my battle with acne scars... Anyway, I lived on and off in East Asia for a few years...
...
. 2001-2002. .
...
88,
BRD
Hello, BRDIf, at Seishin, the liposuction takes one extraction of 200 cc of fat and then Cellution extracts the stem-cells from it and remix the extracted SC back to a smaller volume of fat (like you said 5cc-10cc), to increase the concentration of MSC by 20 -40 times.... then the math does not add up.
Because according to Seishin's website, one liposuction of 200 cc of fact will yield 100 cc of the final injectable mix of, I assume, fat and extracted SC. That makes only an increase of 2 times of the MSC concentration in the final mix.
Unless, more than one liposuction of 200 cc of fat are performed. So maybe 200 cc each time, and multiple times are done, as their website does mention:
"A series of processes from liposuction to extraction and injection of stem cells are performed during a single clinical visit (about 3 hours), and re-injections are not necessary. In fibroblast injection, injectable sites are limited, and medical costs increase substantially with increasing injection sites. In our procedures, however, about 100 cc of injectable fat (adipose tissue-derived stem cells) is harvested in one fat collection session, and thus costs for one session are sufficient for injection into multiple sites." from http://www.saisei-iryou.com/english/cellantiaging/
But if multiple suctions of fat are required then it would take 10 suctions of 200cc each to achieve a 20 times increase of MSC concentration, and 20 suctions of the same amount to achieve the 40 times concentration -- in the final mixture of 100ml injectable.
That seems like a lot of fat sucked out in one session: 2000 cc or 4000 cc. Great for people who want to lose fat on their stomach and thighs - 2 procedures in one... lol....
But that doesn't sound right, does it?
*******
I just read your reply to Franklin Towers re: your forum ethics AFTER I made my last post. I am sorry if my asking for suggestions or details re: the best where/who/how in Eastern Europe/Russia/rest of the world - is deem inappropriate too. Especially if and when any of these communities of medical professionals may be too 'close to home' for you -- geographically or professionally speaking . But since I don't know your geographical location, so I hope not.
However, if it's inappropriate to you, please accept my apology.
The reasons why I asked are because
1) Doctors know best good doctors and bad doctors in their line of work, especially when they work in closely connected communities. Lay people like most of us, outside of the medical profession without power or money or fame, sadly, rarely know of or have access to (even info about) good doctors locally, let alone Eastern Europe or Russia. Language barrier also makes it more challenge to research the issue.
2) For me, many cosmetic surgeons' and dermatologists' so called professional opinions are not trustworthy. Even when I paid high-price ticket to consult them, often either I see right through their top priority (they don't even hide it so well): patient's money, not patient's interests; or their ego/conformity is too big to reach outside of their current scope of knowledge and ability which are usually the current average medical standards. These standards, unfortunately, tend to be 10 (often more) years behind the cutting edge. This leaves most patients with little options. To find treatment options, doctors, or even information that are truly in the patient's best interests is a battle a patient has to fight, together along with struggling with his/her actual condition or dis-ease.
On the contrary, it's very clear to me that you don't agree with the standard conformist and mediocre medical community and you are here to offer sincere help with no selfish motive. Thus I trust your opinion would be professional and out of compassion, not self-interests. That means a precious and rare opportunity for me to get truly helpful information, so I asked.
,
Hi again,
No need to apologize for anything. You have been very kind and I am absolutely honoured to help you and everyone as best I can. 🙂
Your points about Seishin are good. I'll have to look at what they do more closely. Now I am very curious just how much they concentrate their stem cells... I was giving an educated guess, but perhaps my inital estimate of their procedure is off the mark.
BTW I see that heidi55 has also just stated that Dr. Khan cultures MSCs. I suppose heidi will be going through with this procedure eventually (and possibly icaretohelp), so we'll have some real life experiences to discuss. This is very positive news for all.
Through cooperation we're bound to find more and more doctors doing this.
Best wishes,
BRD
Hi BRD!
So is Dr Khan's technique is similar to what you advising???
As I am getting this procedure to correct a previous procedure that went wrong, can you advise of any side effects??? This is why I dont want C02 laser...I am too scared to get anything done at this point that could be damaging.
Thanks again for your time and commitment to this board!
Heidi
dr from bulgariai sent you a pm.................... i dont care how much it costs......... when are u available? i need help!
Hi shortypinky,
I didn't get your PM. My inbox is full and I still have many messages to reply to, but it does take me a while to do so. If possible, write about your needs on this thread. If on the other hand it's personal and you don't want your message out in public just give me a few days to clear up my inbox.
Talk to you soon and best wishes,
BRD
Hi BRD!So is Dr Khan's technique is similar to what you advising???
As I am getting this procedure to correct a previous procedure that went wrong, can you advise of any side effects??? This is why I dont want C02 laser...I am too scared to get anything done at this point that could be damaging.
Thanks again for your time and commitment to this board!
Heidi
Hi heidi55,
From what I've heard from icaretohelp and yourself, it would seem that Dr. Khan is indeed doing something similar to what I'm advising.
I think the procedure is very safe as it involves only autologous cells. However I don't recommend you do CO2. I simply don't like lasers because they can lead to more problems in the long term, but then again many doctors disagree with me. Without a doubt some people do get good results from lasers, while others suffer from various hypo/hyperpigmentation problems, shiny looking skin, vellus hair loss, etc... I suppose my perspective is partially subjective and partially objective. Nothing more, nothing less...
And no worries about anything... I'm glad to help. BTW, I know you wrote me a PM that I still haven't responded to. Whenever I get many at the same time it takes me quite a while to get back to people. That said, I promise I'll keep in touch.
I actualy showed him the website BRD advised me too..and he said this is exactly what he does...the machine in question he will be ordering..as i and heidi mentioned he sends the fat to get stem cells cultured in a clinic in cambridge.. heidi rest assured:) you will do great..dont fret..btw guys due to business im going to be having my injection on the 9th now..just incase your wondering why you dont hear from me on the 6th..i will when th final results are showed show you on this thread my results from april 08 to the present day. im quite certain you will all be inspired to believe. i really hope heidi comes out of this with even more then she anticipates because she has done far tooo much trial and error for any human being to handle x
Hi BRD!
So is Dr Khan's technique is similar to what you advising???
As I am getting this procedure to correct a previous procedure that went wrong, can you advise of any side effects??? This is why I dont want C02 laser...I am too scared to get anything done at this point that could be damaging.
Thanks again for your time and commitment to this board!
Heidi
Hi heidi55,
From what I've heard from icaretohelp and yourself, it would seem that Dr. Khan is indeed doing something similar to what I'm advising.
I think the procedure is very safe as it involves only autologous cells. However I don't recommend you do CO2. I simply don't like lasers because they can lead to more problems in the long term, but then again many doctors disagree with me. Without a doubt some people do get good results from lasers, while others suffer from various hypo/hyperpigmentation problems, shiny looking skin, vellus hair loss, etc... I suppose my perspective is partially subjective and partially objective. Nothing more, nothing less...
And no worries about anything... I'm glad to help. BTW, I know you wrote me a PM that I still haven't responded to. Whenever I get many at the same time it takes me quite a while to get back to people. That said, I promise I'll keep in touch.
Hello, BRDIf, at Seishin, the liposuction takes one extraction of 200 cc of fat and then Cellution extracts the stem-cells from it and remix the extracted SC back to a smaller volume of fat (like you said 5cc-10cc), to increase the concentration of MSC by 20 -40 times.... then the math does not add up.
Because according to Seishin's website, one liposuction of 200 cc of fact will yield 100 cc of the final injectable mix of, I assume, fat and extracted SC. That makes only an increase of 2 times of the MSC concentration in the final mix.
Unless, more than one liposuction of 200 cc of fat are performed. So maybe 200 cc each time, and multiple times are done, as their website does mention:
"A series of processes from liposuction to extraction and injection of stem cells are performed during a single clinical visit (about 3 hours), and re-injections are not necessary. In fibroblast injection, injectable sites are limited, and medical costs increase substantially with increasing injection sites. In our procedures, however, about 100 cc of injectable fat (adipose tissue-derived stem cells) is harvested in one fat collection session, and thus costs for one session are sufficient for injection into multiple sites." from http://www.saisei-iryou.com/english/cellantiaging/
But if multiple suctions of fat are required then it would take 10 suctions of 200cc each to achieve a 20 times increase of MSC concentration, and 20 suctions of the same amount to achieve the 40 times concentration -- in the final mixture of 100ml injectable.
That seems like a lot of fat sucked out in one session: 2000 cc or 4000 cc. Great for people who want to lose fat on their stomach and thighs - 2 procedures in one... lol....
But that doesn't sound right, does it?
*******
I just read your reply to Franklin Towers re: your forum ethics AFTER I made my last post. I am sorry if my asking for suggestions or details re: the best where/who/how in Eastern Europe/Russia/rest of the world - is deem inappropriate too. Especially if and when any of these communities of medical professionals may be too 'close to home' for you -- geographically or professionally speaking . But since I don't know your geographical location, so I hope not.
However, if it's inappropriate to you, please accept my apology.
The reasons why I asked are because
1) Doctors know best good doctors and bad doctors in their line of work, especially when they work in closely connected communities. Lay people like most of us, outside of the medical profession without power or money or fame, sadly, rarely know of or have access to (even info about) good doctors locally, let alone Eastern Europe or Russia. Language barrier also makes it more challenge to research the issue.
2) For me, many cosmetic surgeons' and dermatologists' so called professional opinions are not trustworthy. Even when I paid high-price ticket to consult them, often either I see right through their top priority (they don't even hide it so well): patient's money, not patient's interests; or their ego/conformity is too big to reach outside of their current scope of knowledge and ability which are usually the current average medical standards. These standards, unfortunately, tend to be 10 (often more) years behind the cutting edge. This leaves most patients with little options. To find treatment options, doctors, or even information that are truly in the patient's best interests is a battle a patient has to fight, together along with struggling with his/her actual condition or dis-ease.
On the contrary, it's very clear to me that you don't agree with the standard conformist and mediocre medical community and you are here to offer sincere help with no selfish motive. Thus I trust your opinion would be professional and out of compassion, not self-interests. That means a precious and rare opportunity for me to get truly helpful information, so I asked.
,
Hi again,
No need to apologize for anything. You have been very kind and I am absolutely honoured to help you and everyone as best I can. 🙂
Your points about Seishin are good. I'll have to look at what they do more closely. Now I am very curious just how much they concentrate their stem cells... I was giving an educated guess, but perhaps my inital estimate of their procedure is off the mark.
BTW I see that heidi55 has also just stated that Dr. Khan cultures MSCs. I suppose heidi will be going through with this procedure eventually (and possibly icaretohelp), so we'll have some real life experiences to discuss. This is very positive news for all.
Through cooperation we're bound to find more and more doctors doing this.
Best wishes,
BRD
Thanks for your help, BRD.
I was originally scheduled for a needling treatment on Feb 8th. The procedure is to use a digitally controlled permanent make-up machine (rather than tattoo gun, Softtap or dermaroller) by a Chinese eye cosmetic surgeon/doctor turned PM artist and 'paramedical' esthetician. I have included a link to her portfolio below. If you have a moment, please check it out and give me your opinion. Close to the bottom of this web page, you can find her (, I assume, best) work in acne scar/pits remodeling. Specifically, there are 2 sets of before-and-after pictures of a young Asian female, petlover, who wrote about her experience on this board and how I found the service provider near me).
http://www.biotouchcanada.com/portfolio.htm
What is your assessment on the result shown? Do you think Cellution at Seishin, Aolousi, or similar stem cell procedure elsewhere alone can achieve much better result? You mentioned that you believe stem cell therapy after subcision would enhance result. Would that also be true for needling? Or the micro wound from needling would 'heal' too fast to have significant enhancement effect on stem cell therapy's result? How much enhancement, in your opinion, and is it worth taking the risk of damage?
I'm in my 30s, Asian on the fair side, type II skin, moderate scaring, mostly icepicks, a few deep ones, the rest are medium to shallow depth, plus some scarred pores. My skin is sensitive, heals slowly and post-inflammatory hyper-pigmentation from healed cysts (or a small burn wound for example) can take a year or more to fade away completely. I also have few spots of very slight but what seemed like semi-permanent hyper-pigmentation from scaring, and/or maybe even from doing micro-dermabrasion and smooth beam laser back to back during a time period when my skin was particularly sensitive.
Would you advise that I do needling prior to stem cell procedure? If I want the needling to enhance stem cell treatment, how close in time the two procedures have to be, in order to have the best chance for the positive enhancement effect?
Upon discovering this thread last night, I almost felt I no longer want to consider needling. I had to before because my research had concluded that it's my best option for now, all things considered. But a part of me was not comfortable with the risk of damaging the dermis and possible healing/ hyper-pigmentation issues etc..
Prior to this point, all potential treatment I knew of currently available for acne scars involves different forms and degrees of controlled damage to skin, in hope to initiate a regenerative response.
Light Therapy (eg. DPL and perhaps other professional ones) and Stem Cell Therapy are the only ones I know so far that can stimulate significant regenerative response without the necessity to damage the skin. And to me, these treatment option represent a big step beyond the old (and harsh) golden rule that "(controlled) damage is required to improve damage (caused by dis-ease), thus patients must suffer the risk of new damage in hope to improve old damage".
If we already have the technology to heal without re-damage, why should anyone suffer the pain and risk that comes with any controlled damage. If the reasons comes down to the bottom line of corruption of "the power that be" (medical, pharmaceutical, government, corporations, etc) and/or just plan stupidity of humans in general, then I encourage everyone to do EVERYTHING we can to break through this thick wall of BS and reach for the best possible. Regeneration without the need to re-damage seems to me so much more elegant, smarter and up to speed with where the advancement of our technology is really at.
And, BRD, I think you should get some REST!!
Best regards and thank you for all your help.
By the way, BRD
Your Chinese is great, please keep it up!
I was born and raised in Taiwan until I was 18. But I left home for Canada many years ago, now I am considering moving back to Asia (Thailand, India, Taiwan or Indonesia..not sure exactly yet) because my whole being is yearning to be in Asia...
If your first love wasn't dermatology, then could it be East Asian culture? If you ever come to Taiwan again, may I have the honor to show you some of my favorite places? And you have an open invitation to stay with my family in taipei, kaoshong, and pindong.
If you do, you don't even have to tell me your real identity, I will just call you BRD. So you won't have to risk disclosing your identity. What do you think? 
Have you ever thought about practicing and researching in Asia again?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are talking about fibroblasts, stem cells and adipose tissue. Anyway sounds to me like the information I was initially given some time ago.
BRD,
The terms used on Aoluosi are not clear, I would have to consult a qualified Chinese dermatologist to verify what Chinese terms correspond to exactly what English terms. To my limited understanding, I will attempt to do flat-out, over-literal translation (in brackets) of the keywords in the following paragraph taken from:
http://www.aoluosi.com/detail/5563.html
And see if it can help you in anyway.
(Isolagen) (Autologous cell?) (scar remodeling)
(collagen) (no idea) (Fibroblast & nutrition??) /p>
:/p>
(3D light treatment program, light and energy technology??)+ (Isolagen Autologous Cell Scar Remodeling?) + (micro-injury resurfacing technique?) (hyper-pigmentation)
-
GM
P (Fibroblast) (life cells?) 2000/ml) (??? not sure what is in English, it is referred to repeatedly by Aoluosi as the cells that are cultured to increase its numbers ) (autologous blood)23 (growth factors)
Here are some key words of which EXACT English equivalents are needed:
++
Now there was no mention of (stem cell) anywhere, nor adipose or fat. Yet the phrase does vaguely evoke a "connection" to stem cell, but as you probably know, simply means one's own body, in that the cells are taken from one's own body.
BRD,The terms used on Aoluosi are not clear, I would have to consult a qualified Chinese dermatologist to verify what Chinese terms correspond to exactly what English terms. To my limited understanding, I will attempt to do flat-out, over-literal translation (in brackets) of the keywords in the following paragraph taken from:
http://www.aoluosi.com/detail/5563.html
And see if it can help you in anyway.
(Isolagen) (Autologous cell?) (scar remodeling)
(collagen) (no idea) (Fibroblast & nutrition??) /p>
:/p>
(3D light treatment program, light and energy technology??)+ (Isolagen Autologous Cell Scar Remodeling?) + (micro-injury resurfacing technique?) (hyper-pigmentation)
-
GM
P (Fibroblast) (life cells?) 2000/ml) (??? not sure what is in English, it is referred to repeatedly by Aoluosi as the cells that are cultured to increase its numbers ) (autologous blood)23 (growth factors)
/p>
Here are some key words of which EXACT English equivalents are needed:
++
Now there was no mention of (stem cell) anywhere, nor adipose or fat. Yet the phrase does vaguely evoke a "connection" to stem cell, but as you probably know, simply means one's own body, in that the cells are taken from one's own body.
Hi 2012,
I am just in the midst of doing some things at work, so I will get back to all of your posts tomorrow. However before I logout for the day, I did want to show you the Auluosi text that I believe does discuss stem cells and fat tissue: http://www.aoluosi.com/detail/6994.html
Here's a copy of it (for some reason some characters just show up as blank squares):
""""
/p>
/p>
/p>
/p>
/p>
/p>
/p>
/p>
/p>
90%---98%/p>
/p>
6/p>
/p>
/p>
/p>
1030
/p>
, /p>
/p>
/p>
/p>
./p>
/p>
/p>
/p>
/p>
/p>
/p>
/p>
/p>
I've highlighted in red the words for stem cells (simplified characters), and in blue the words that as far as I know mean adipose tissue (fat). You and I have been reading two different texts. I think that's where the confusion is coming from.
Talk to you tomorrow and have a good Friday,
BRD
BRD,Would you consider treating patients once you have confidence that your stem cell procedure works?
Hi again,
As I've said before, I do not solicit people on acne.org, in any way form or manner, to come to my office and receive any treatment that I offer. In fact, when people on acne.org ask to come visit me I simply refuse. It would be unethical to accept their offers in light of the circumstances at hand. You know how I feel about this particular issue from our past conversations.
The most basic reason I do things this way is that I am not on this forum to advertise myself. Thereby no one here knows my name and/or where I'm located. In other words, the help I provide herein is free of charge and I consequently don't seek public recognition or your money. In this way there are no moral hazards that could lead to unethical behaviour or the accusation of such. Thus I simply provide you (a person in need) with cutting edge information which you can then use to help yourself by finding doctors who are forward looking. Learn from this information, personalize it and present it to those who you deem qualified to hear you out.
Hi BRD,
My sincere apologies if I have offended you in any way. Please know that the reason I asked this was because you have earned my trust (and I'm certain that of most of the acne.org community).
2012 brings up an interesting question: Is there an optimal amount of cultured MSC's to be injected per square inch (or some measurement)?
And If one were to have an excision, is it ultimately best to have the MSC's injected right after? Could MSC's be injected before the excision and still exert a positive effect? If so, how soon before an excision could MSC's be injected? Would 48 hours be too late?
Finally, could MSC's work at reducing internal scarring?
Thanks for your time.
Cheers and all the best,
FT
I'm sorry if this has already been answered... I did look but couldn't find the answer so thought I'd try again.
Does anyone know if this treatment has any effect on red marks or acne in general? I'd like to get it done but seeing as I still suffer from moderate acne/red marks I don't know whether there's any point... spending so much to get rid of the scars, only to get more seems a waste.
Or will this only work on depressed/raised scars?
Hello, BRDIf, at Seishin, the liposuction takes one extraction of 200 cc of fat and then Cellution extracts the stem-cells from it and remix the extracted SC back to a smaller volume of fat (like you said 5cc-10cc), to increase the concentration of MSC by 20 -40 times.... then the math does not add up.
Because according to Seishin's website, one liposuction of 200 cc of fact will yield 100 cc of the final injectable mix of, I assume, fat and extracted SC. That makes only an increase of 2 times of the MSC concentration in the final mix.
Unless, more than one liposuction of 200 cc of fat are performed. So maybe 200 cc each time, and multiple times are done, as their website does mention:
"A series of processes from liposuction to extraction and injection of stem cells are performed during a single clinical visit (about 3 hours), and re-injections are not necessary. In fibroblast injection, injectable sites are limited, and medical costs increase substantially with increasing injection sites. In our procedures, however, about 100 cc of injectable fat (adipose tissue-derived stem cells) is harvested in one fat collection session, and thus costs for one session are sufficient for injection into multiple sites." from http://www.saisei-iryou.com/english/cellantiaging/
But if multiple suctions of fat are required then it would take 10 suctions of 200cc each to achieve a 20 times increase of MSC concentration, and 20 suctions of the same amount to achieve the 40 times concentration -- in the final mixture of 100ml injectable.
That seems like a lot of fat sucked out in one session: 2000 cc or 4000 cc. Great for people who want to lose fat on their stomach and thighs - 2 procedures in one... lol....
But that doesn't sound right, does it?
*******
I just read your reply to Franklin Towers re: your forum ethics AFTER I made my last post. I am sorry if my asking for suggestions or details re: the best where/who/how in Eastern Europe/Russia/rest of the world - is deem inappropriate too. Especially if and when any of these communities of medical professionals may be too 'close to home' for you -- geographically or professionally speaking . But since I don't know your geographical location, so I hope not.
However, if it's inappropriate to you, please accept my apology.
The reasons why I asked are because
1) Doctors know best good doctors and bad doctors in their line of work, especially when they work in closely connected communities. Lay people like most of us, outside of the medical profession without power or money or fame, sadly, rarely know of or have access to (even info about) good doctors locally, let alone Eastern Europe or Russia. Language barrier also makes it more challenge to research the issue.
2) For me, many cosmetic surgeons' and dermatologists' so called professional opinions are not trustworthy. Even when I paid high-price ticket to consult them, often either I see right through their top priority (they don't even hide it so well): patient's money, not patient's interests; or their ego/conformity is too big to reach outside of their current scope of knowledge and ability which are usually the current average medical standards. These standards, unfortunately, tend to be 10 (often more) years behind the cutting edge. This leaves most patients with little options. To find treatment options, doctors, or even information that are truly in the patient's best interests is a battle a patient has to fight, together along with struggling with his/her actual condition or dis-ease.
On the contrary, it's very clear to me that you don't agree with the standard conformist and mediocre medical community and you are here to offer sincere help with no selfish motive. Thus I trust your opinion would be professional and out of compassion, not self-interests. That means a precious and rare opportunity for me to get truly helpful information, so I asked.
,
Hi again,
No need to apologize for anything. You have been very kind and I am absolutely honoured to help you and everyone as best I can. 🙂
Your points about Seishin are good. I'll have to look at what they do more closely. Now I am very curious just how much they concentrate their stem cells... I was giving an educated guess, but perhaps my inital estimate of their procedure is off the mark.
BTW I see that heidi55 has also just stated that Dr. Khan cultures MSCs. I suppose heidi will be going through with this procedure eventually (and possibly icaretohelp), so we'll have some real life experiences to discuss. This is very positive news for all.
Through cooperation we're bound to find more and more doctors doing this.
Best wishes,
BRD
Thanks for your help, BRD.
I was originally scheduled for a needling treatment on Feb 8th. The procedure is to use a digitally controlled permanent make-up machine (rather than tattoo gun, Softtap or dermaroller) by a Chinese eye cosmetic surgeon/doctor turned PM artist and 'paramedical' esthetician. I have included a link to her portfolio below. If you have a moment, please check it out and give me your opinion. Close to the bottom of this web page, you can find her (, I assume, best) work in acne scar/pits remodeling. Specifically, there are 2 sets of before-and-after pictures of a young Asian female, petlover, who wrote about her experience on this board and how I found the service provider near me).
http://www.biotouchcanada.com/portfolio.htm
What is your assessment on the result shown? Do you think Cellution at Seishin, Aolousi, or similar stem cell procedure elsewhere alone can achieve much better result? You mentioned that you believe stem cell therapy after subcision would enhance result. Would that also be true for needling? Or the micro wound from needling would 'heal' too fast to have significant enhancement effect on stem cell therapy's result? How much enhancement, in your opinion, and is it worth taking the risk of damage?
I'm in my 30s, Asian on the fair side, type II skin, moderate scaring, mostly icepicks, a few deep ones, the rest are medium to shallow depth, plus some scarred pores. My skin is sensitive, heals slowly and post-inflammatory hyper-pigmentation from healed cysts (or a small burn wound for example) can take a year or more to fade away completely. I also have few spots of very slight but what seemed like semi-permanent hyper-pigmentation from scaring, and/or maybe even from doing micro-dermabrasion and smooth beam laser back to back during a time period when my skin was particularly sensitive.
Would you advise that I do needling prior to stem cell procedure? If I want the needling to enhance stem cell treatment, how close in time the two procedures have to be, in order to have the best chance for the positive enhancement effect?
Upon discovering this thread last night, I almost felt I no longer want to consider needling. I had to before because my research had concluded that it's my best option for now, all things considered. But a part of me was not comfortable with the risk of damaging the dermis and possible healing/ hyper-pigmentation issues etc..
Prior to this point, all potential treatment I knew of currently available for acne scars involves different forms and degrees of controlled damage to skin, in hope to initiate a regenerative response.
Light Therapy (eg. DPL and perhaps other professional ones) and Stem Cell Therapy are the only ones I know so far that can stimulate significant regenerative response without the necessity to damage the skin. And to me, these treatment option represent a big step beyond the old (and harsh) golden rule that "(controlled) damage is required to improve damage (caused by dis-ease), thus patients must suffer the risk of new damage in hope to improve old damage".
If we already have the technology to heal without re-damage, why should anyone suffer the pain and risk that comes with any controlled damage. If the reasons comes down to the bottom line of corruption of "the power that be" (medical, pharmaceutical, government, corporations, etc) and/or just plan stupidity of humans in general, then I encourage everyone to do EVERYTHING we can to break through this thick wall of BS and reach for the best possible. Regeneration without the need to re-damage seems to me so much more elegant, smarter and up to speed with where the advancement of our technology is really at.
And, BRD, I think you should get some REST!!
Best regards and thank you for all your help.
Hi 2012,
I looked at the website you mentioned. It seems that the results are pretty good considering the circumstances. That said, I believe that needling by itself may not offer the kind of results that most people are looking for. On the other hand the combination of needling and LED light therapy at the right red and infrared wavelengths will enhance the healing and minimize any negative post treatment effects. Lamarr1986 (famous and very kind acne.org member) has had good results in using this combination treatment. I also believe that light therapy goes well with subcision.
I am sure that any procedure, needling included, would be maximally enhanced by stem cell injections. After all, when skin is injured in one way or another, a small amount of stem cells bind to the site of injury and start the reparative process. However the mobilized/available quantity of stem cells is small, which also limits their collective ability to repair injury in the best way possible. If however one increases their numbers significantly by way of injection, then the induced dermal damage will be repaired in a more efficient manner, whilst the remodelled tissues are better organized. Also for the stem cell therapy to work in synergy with needling or subcision, the two treatments would likely be best done on the same day. As you know, the reason that stem cells are attracted to the site of injury is that certain growth factors (ie: PDGF) are released by coagulating platelets, which also lay down a temporary scaffold where new connective tissues can be generated. If a few days/weeks have passed and the said injury is healed (or in an advanced phase of healing), then one would not be taking advantage of this rather short-lived post injury histological process.
Since you mention that your scarring is generally moderate, I suggest you instead try blood injections (PRP) along with needling and daily light therapy at approximately 4 Joules/cm2. I think this will help you and thus you will likely not need to spend a lot of money on the more expensive stem cell therapy.
1 a) Once every two months needle at a max depth of 2mm (if you want to be on the safe side go with 1.5mm depth)
b) Followed up by PRP injection
2) Needle ~3 times a week at 0.5mm - 0.75mm (for sensitive skin simply use 0.5mm)
3) Daily light therapy (~4J/cm2)
I think this type of treatment is fairly safe, at least in comparison to deep chemical peels and laser treatments. If you need more information on blood injections, take a look at the "Autologous Blood Injection" thread.
All the best...
By the way, BRDYour Chinese is great, please keep it up!
I was born and raised in Taiwan until I was 18. But I left home for Canada many years ago, now I am considering moving back to Asia (Thailand, India, Taiwan or Indonesia..not sure exactly yet) because my whole being is yearning to be in Asia...
If your first love wasn't dermatology, then could it be East Asian culture? If you ever come to Taiwan again, may I have the honor to show you some of my favorite places? And you have an open invitation to stay with my family in taipei, kaoshong, and pindong.
If you do, you don't even have to tell me your real identity, I will just call you BRD. So you won't have to risk disclosing your identity. What do you think? 😀
Have you ever thought about practicing and researching in Asia again?
Thanks for the compliment. Still, I think you are being too kind and I definitely need to improve, especially my writing skills. 🙁
One of my first intellectual loves was oriented around East Asian culture. When I was young I loved reading books and watching movies about ancient China, Japan, etc... I was also crazy about aerospace and aviation, physics and art. Kind of a weird combo of interests... Then came along acne, bad side effects from Accutane and finally moderate to deep acne scars. So, my attention turned to fiding a way to help myself and others like me. The rest is history.
Thank you for the invitation. I accept and I will be most happy to visit "Ilha Formosa" again sometime in the near future. As for research, indeed I have thought about doing some more in East Asia. It's definitely a very interesting and dynamic place that offers limitless opportunities in this line of work.
Best wishes...
BRD,Would you consider treating patients once you have confidence that your stem cell procedure works?
Hi again,
As I've said before, I do not solicit people on acne.org, in any way form or manner, to come to my office and receive any treatment that I offer. In fact, when people on acne.org ask to come visit me I simply refuse. It would be unethical to accept their offers in light of the circumstances at hand. You know how I feel about this particular issue from our past conversations.
The most basic reason I do things this way is that I am not on this forum to advertise myself. Thereby no one here knows my name and/or where I'm located. In other words, the help I provide herein is free of charge and I consequently don't seek public recognition or your money. In this way there are no moral hazards that could lead to unethical behaviour or the accusation of such. Thus I simply provide you (a person in need) with cutting edge information which you can then use to help yourself by finding doctors who are forward looking. Learn from this information, personalize it and present it to those who you deem qualified to hear you out.
Hi BRD,
My sincere apologies if I have offended you in any way. Please know that the reason I asked this was because you have earned my trust (and I'm certain that of most of the acne.org community).
2012 brings up an interesting question: Is there an optimal amount of cultured MSC's to be injected per square inch (or some measurement)?
And If one were to have an excision, is it ultimately best to have the MSC's injected right after? Could MSC's be injected before the excision and still exert a positive effect? If so, how soon before an excision could MSC's be injected? Would 48 hours be too late?
Finally, could MSC's work at reducing internal scarring?
Thanks for your time.
Cheers and all the best,
FT
Hi Franklin Towers,
No need to apologize what-so-ever... I think you're a very valuable member on acne.org because you are always contributing in a positive manner. Thus I have utmost respect for you.
I'm not sure about a specific "optimal amount" for MSC concentration per cc of injected autologous material. I suppose some trial and error will give me a better idea as time goes by.
In regard to your question about excision, I do think MSCs would have to be injected right after. However, I also think that the area of excision should be sutured up with an implanted ECM scaffold. This will work in a complimentary fashion with the stem cells. In the end you'll likely end up with a small line scar in place of the hypertrophic scar. I would also suggest you do daily light therapy after such a procedure.
Best wishes...