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Thanks, BRD
Looks like I will need to find a physician who will use both Acell and MSC, which is what I suspected all along.
Has anyone contacted Dr. Allan Wu, MD ([email protected]) from Palm Springs, CA? Although he said that my hypertrophic scar is too big for their current application, he may very well be inclined to use MSC's for relatively small scars, such as those cause by acne.
I found another forum actively discussing regerative medicine: http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=32
Although it is mainly for spinal cord injuries, it may prove informative none the less.
question for BRD - this is kinda off topic but it is to do with scaring. in the past when i had moderate acne i did not get any scars. but now even though i only get 1 or 2 tiny tiny little spots it leaves a indented scar! im getting really worried becuase im getting scars everywhere (like large pores / ice pic scars) is there anything that you could suggest to get my skin to stop scaring so easily. it never used to scar in the past ... the only treatment i have had done was two 40 - 50 % glycolic/salcilic acid peels done about one and a half years ago (these were not the deep peels that you would get done my a doctor they were milder ones, wher you had to get a series of 6 peels done to get the disired results - i only had 2 done and did not have any bad reactions from them just a lil redness that disspapeard within a day. i get alot of acne on my back and chest but i never get any scars from them. its really worrying me becuase i know whenever i get a tiny tiny spot it will leave a scar
is there anything that can be done ?
also is there anything you could suggest for large pores ? would stem cells work for this aswel ?
Thanks
BRD
I just like to say i really admire you as a person and what you have to say is very interesting and informative. I would like to know if the new prp regeneration therapy will be right for me, i've never had acne but have burn scars from a beauty product , most of my scars look like depression but a few is flat and shiny.
Many thanks CT
BRD,
Is there anyway you could help finding a doctor in the U.S that performs stem cell injections? I am going to see my doc. on Monday and I am going to bring it up to him. He has already recommended blood injections, but he never mentioned separating the platelets in the blood, just simply withdrawling blood and re-injecting it into my scars. But if you could help me find a doctor in the states that are doing stem cell, that would be great. Thank you for all your posts.
Hello, BRDIf, at Seishin, the liposuction takes one extraction of 200 cc of fat and then Cellution extracts the stem-cells from it and remix the extracted SC back to a smaller volume of fat (like you said 5cc-10cc), to increase the concentration of MSC by 20 -40 times.... then the math does not add up.
Because according to Seishin's website, one liposuction of 200 cc of fact will yield 100 cc of the final injectable mix of, I assume, fat and extracted SC. That makes only an increase of 2 times of the MSC concentration in the final mix.
Unless, more than one liposuction of 200 cc of fat are performed. So maybe 200 cc each time, and multiple times are done, as their website does mention:
"A series of processes from liposuction to extraction and injection of stem cells are performed during a single clinical visit (about 3 hours), and re-injections are not necessary. In fibroblast injection, injectable sites are limited, and medical costs increase substantially with increasing injection sites. In our procedures, however, about 100 cc of injectable fat (adipose tissue-derived stem cells) is harvested in one fat collection session, and thus costs for one session are sufficient for injection into multiple sites." from http://www.saisei-iryou.com/english/cellantiaging/
But if multiple suctions of fat are required then it would take 10 suctions of 200cc each to achieve a 20 times increase of MSC concentration, and 20 suctions of the same amount to achieve the 40 times concentration -- in the final mixture of 100ml injectable.
That seems like a lot of fat sucked out in one session: 2000 cc or 4000 cc. Great for people who want to lose fat on their stomach and thighs - 2 procedures in one... lol....
But that doesn't sound right, does it?
****
I just read your reply to Franklin Towers re: your forum ethics AFTER I made my last post. I am sorry if my asking for suggestions or details re: the best where/who/how in Eastern Europe/Russia/rest of the world - is deem inappropriate too. Especially if and when any of these communities of medical professionals may be too 'close to home' for you -- geographically or professionally speaking . But since I don't know your geographical location, so I hope not.
However, if it's inappropriate to you, please accept my apology.
The reasons why I asked are because
1) Doctors know best good doctors and bad doctors in their line of work, especially when they work in closely connected communities. Lay people like most of us, outside of the medical profession without power or money or fame, sadly, rarely know of or have access to (even info about) good doctors locally, let alone Eastern Europe or Russia. Language barrier also makes it more challenge to research the issue.
2) For me, many cosmetic surgeons' and dermatologists' so called professional opinions are not trustworthy. Even when I paid high-price ticket to consult them, often either I see right through their top priority (they don't even hide it so well): patient's money, not patient's interests; or their ego/conformity is too big to reach outside of their current scope of knowledge and ability which are usually the current average medical standards. These standards, unfortunately, tend to be 10 (often more) years behind the cutting edge. This leaves most patients with little options. To find treatment options, doctors, or even information that are truly in the patient's best interests is a battle a patient has to fight, together along with struggling with his/her actual condition or dis-ease.
On the contrary, it's very clear to me that you don't agree with the standard conformist and mediocre medical community :clap: and you are here to offer sincere help with no selfish motive. Thus I trust your opinion would be professional and out of compassion, not self-interests. That means a precious and rare opportunity for me to get truly helpful information, so I asked.
,
Hi again,
No need to apologize for anything. You have been very kind and I am absolutely honoured to help you and everyone as best I can. 🙂
Your points about Seishin are good. I'll have to look at what they do more closely. Now I am very curious just how much they concentrate their stem cells... I was giving an educated guess, but perhaps my inital estimate of their procedure is off the mark.
BTW I see that heidi55 has also just stated that Dr. Khan cultures MSCs. I suppose heidi will be going through with this procedure eventually (and possibly icaretohelp), so we'll have some real life experiences to discuss. This is very positive news for all.
Through cooperation we're bound to find more and more doctors doing this.
Best wishes,
BRD
Thanks for your help, BRD.
I was originally scheduled for a needling treatment on Feb 8th. The procedure is to use a digitally controlled permanent make-up machine (rather than tattoo gun, Softtap or dermaroller) by a Chinese eye cosmetic surgeon/doctor turned PM artist and 'paramedical' esthetician. I have included a link to her portfolio below. If you have a moment, please check it out and give me your opinion. Close to the bottom of this web page, you can find her (, I assume, best) work in acne scar/pits remodeling. Specifically, there are 2 sets of before-and-after pictures of a young Asian female, petlover, who wrote about her experience on this board and how I found the service provider near me).
http://www.biotouchcanada.com/portfolio.htm
What is your assessment on the result shown? Do you think Cellution at Seishin, Aolousi, or similar stem cell procedure elsewhere alone can achieve much better result? You mentioned that you believe stem cell therapy after subcision would enhance result. Would that also be true for needling? Or the micro wound from needling would 'heal' too fast to have significant enhancement effect on stem cell therapy's result? How much enhancement, in your opinion, and is it worth taking the risk of damage?
I'm in my 30s, Asian on the fair side, type II skin, moderate scaring, mostly icepicks, a few deep ones, the rest are medium to shallow depth, plus some scarred pores. My skin is sensitive, heals slowly and post-inflammatory hyper-pigmentation from healed cysts (or a small burn wound for example) can take a year or more to fade away completely. I also have few spots of very slight but what seemed like semi-permanent hyper-pigmentation from scaring, and/or maybe even from doing micro-dermabrasion and smooth beam laser back to back during a time period when my skin was particularly sensitive.
Would you advise that I do needling prior to stem cell procedure? If I want the needling to enhance stem cell treatment, how close in time the two procedures have to be, in order to have the best chance for the positive enhancement effect?
Upon discovering this thread last night, I almost felt I no longer want to consider needling. I had to before because my research had concluded that it's my best option for now, all things considered. But a part of me was not comfortable with the risk of damaging the dermis and possible healing/ hyper-pigmentation issues etc..
Prior to this point, all potential treatment I knew of currently available for acne scars involves different forms and degrees of controlled damage to skin, in hope to initiate a regenerative response.
Light Therapy (eg. DPL and perhaps other professional ones) and Stem Cell Therapy are the only ones I know so far that can stimulate significant regenerative response without the necessity to damage the skin. And to me, these treatment option represent a big step beyond the old (and harsh) golden rule that "(controlled) damage is required to improve damage (caused by dis-ease), thus patients must suffer the risk of new damage in hope to improve old damage".
If we already have the technology to heal without re-damage, why should anyone suffer the pain and risk that comes with any controlled damage. If the reasons comes down to the bottom line of corruption of "the power that be" (medical, pharmaceutical, government, corporations, etc) and/or just plan stupidity of humans in general, then I encourage everyone to do EVERYTHING we can to break through this thick wall of BS and reach for the best possible. Regeneration without the need to re-damage seems to me so much more elegant, smarter and up to speed with where the advancement of our technology is really at.
And, BRD, I think you should get some REST!!
Best regards and thank you for all your help.
Hi 2012,
I looked at the website you mentioned. It seems that the results are pretty good considering the circumstances. That said, I believe that needling by itself may not offer the kind of results that most people are looking for. On the other hand the combination of needling and LED light therapy at the right red and infrared wavelengths will enhance the healing and minimize any negative post treatment effects. Lamarr1986 (famous and very kind acne.org member) has had good results in using this combination treatment. I also believe that light therapy goes well with subcision.
I am sure that any procedure, needling included, would be maximally enhanced by stem cell injections. After all, when skin is injured in one way or another, a small amount of stem cells bind to the site of injury and start the reparative process. However the mobilized/available quantity of stem cells is small, which also limits their collective ability to repair injury in the best way possible. If however one increases their numbers significantly by way of injection, then the induced dermal damage will be repaired in a more efficient manner, whilst the remodelled tissues are better organized. Also for the stem cell therapy to work in synergy with needling or subcision, the two treatments would likely be best done on the same day. As you know, the reason that stem cells are attracted to the site of injury is that certain growth factors (ie: PDGF) are released by coagulating platelets, which also lay down a temporary scaffold where new connective tissues can be generated. If a few days/weeks have passed and the said injury is healed (or in an advanced phase of healing), then one would not be taking advantage of this rather short-lived post injury histological process.
Since you mention that your scarring is generally moderate, I suggest you instead try blood injections (PRP) along with needling and daily light therapy at approximately 4 Joules/cm2. I think this will help you and thus you will likely not need to spend a lot of money on the more expensive stem cell therapy.
1 a) Once every two months needle at a max depth of 2mm (if you want to be on the safe side go with 1.5mm depth)
b) Followed up by PRP injection
2) Needle ~3 times a week at 0.5mm - 0.75mm (for sensitive skin simply use 0.5mm)
3) Daily light therapy (~4J/cm2)
I think this type of treatment is fairly safe, at least in comparison to deep chemical peels and laser treatments. If you need more information on blood injections, take a look at the "Autologous Blood Injection" thread.
All the best...
BRD,
Thanks for the suggestions.
I have some questions:
1 a) Once every two months needle at a max depth of 2mm (if you want to be on the safe side go with 1.5mm depth)
Are you referring to using a dermaroller of 2mm or 1.5mm?
Or do you recommend I get this done by dry a needling professional, such as the Chinese lady whose portfolio you saw, and just ask the digital machine to be set to maximum penetration of 1.5 - 2mm? What would be the desirable thickness of needles used for small icepicks and boxcar of 1mm - 4 mm in diameters?
And for this one, being a slow healer, am I looking at about 5 days of downtime after?
b) Followed up by PRP injection
I did read your Autologous Blood Injection thread before. And I am a bit confused.
Needling and then PRP injection make sense to me, but in that thread you said to Teamwork:
"...it is useful to needle the scar but only after the haematoma has formed. It is however important to wait approximately 24 hours before you needle. This procedure will be fairly easy because the haematoma will have pigmented the atrophied area of your skin, so you can simply use the pigment to find each and every scar you've injected with blood...."
I suppose these are similar principles but in reverse order: one induces micro wound then introduces blood to enhance the healing response; and the other one creates haematoma first and then induce the micro wound to kick the skin into repair mode?
A few hours after needling, the wounds, I assume, would still be quite raw and bright red. I was told the wounds would still be bleeding a little and thinly scabbed over. Do I just inject right at the wounded spot? (It just seems a bit "not right" to be doing that). Would inadequate rookie injection skill potentially does undesirable damage to the already injured skin?
I used to inject Kanalog into my cysts before, and a few times I either overdid it or injected too deep and created atrophy that took 1-3 months to recover. Maybe I am a bad candidate for self-injection of this nature.
Are there any "stopper" device I can use (for the practice phase at the beginning) to make sure I don't go over a certain depth when injecting. Where can I find it?
2) Needle ~3 times a week at 0.5mm - 0.75mm (for sensitive skin simply use 0.5mm)
You mean dermaroller type of needling, too? And for this one, is there any downtime? (i.e. can I walk out my door the next day without make up?)
3) Daily light therapy (~4J/cm2)
Yes, I already purchased DPL, still waiting for it to arrive. I plan to do it daily.
***
It would take me at least a few months before I am even able to make it to the Far East for Stem Cell Therapy. So in the meantime, I will give the above a try. This may help to fill my scars a little, so by the time I do get to do SCT, it may cost me considerably less than if I were to do it now (since, for example, Aoluosi charges by per ml of SC injectable needed, so I assume the less/shallower the scars, the less it would cost).
But I really resonate with the principles of SCT. For the first time, there is an effective acne scar therapy that doesn't make my stomach knot (on the thought of the "immediately-after-procedure picture" and the downtime face), plus improvement SCT can offer seems phenomenal compared to any other therapies I know. If Aoluosi's promise of 90%-98% improvement can really be delivered in one full treatment cycle of 3 injections, even if SCT is going to break my bank account, I am going for it. I just had to be patient, and that's hard since I can't quite just leave for Asia yet.
That being said, have you ever estimated what would be a fair price range for SCT (not Cellution, but traditional method of culturing), I mean a price that is fair to the doctor's work and fair to the patient's wallet? Aoluosi charges $660 RNB per 1ml final injectable, is that fair in your opinion? How many ml each time do you think one needs for a small scar (say grade 3, 1mm in diameter) and for a bigger, deeper scar (say grade 4, 4mm)?
I am also wondering does SCT work well for improving:
1) Tiny scars such as scared pores
2) Very fibrous scar (that even the touch of my finger can feel the scar tissue mass underneath), these are usually under deeper and bigger scars
3) "Orrange-peel effect" or rolling scars (a small area on my right cheek close to my nose has this type of scaring).
4) Hyper-pigmentation
And just to summarize, procedures should be done in the following order to optimize results:
[A]. Invasive treatment if used (needling/subcision etc.)
. PRP injection (once every two weeks)
[C]. SCT (if used)
[D] Light therapy (daily)
A, B, C on the same day (or fairly close).
Should Light therapy be used immediately after on the same day of invasive treatment, when the wound is still raw?
Will SCT also help with improving overall skin tone (evenness and luminosity) and texture, if it is injected to scars spread out through large area of the face (cheeks, forehead, etc.)? Or does it only effect each tiny spot where the scar is injected? What other things would you recommend for improving overall skin tone and texture of the whole face? For example: what method of exfoliation to use on a regular basis to keep pores clear ( that is, If I don't want to use acid, especially after needling and blood injection or SCT)?
THANK YOU for your help!
Warm regards,
Did you guys here what that female announcer said about Hines Ward before the start of the Super Bowl? She mentioned that he had a bad knee injury. Then she said that he had a new treatment done. She said he had his own blood taken, the cells multiplied and then re-injected into his knee. He said it feels almost 100%. This is right inline with all this stem-cell and blood injection talk. I think this is really the right way to go for acne scars. What do you guys think?
I was researching about PRP injections when i came across a small paragrah:
Historically PRP injections have been used with great success in dental and facial surgery to aid bone and SKIN GRAFTS. Recently PRP has been used in the treatment of joint injuries involving cartilage, tendons and ligaments. Tendons injected with PRP have been stonger than Non-injected tendons in just 6-8weeks. These injections may really improve our scars !
I found this website, they have a few pictures of people from Africa who had the PRP injection done
Also i think they say you can ask your doctor or dermatologist to purchase a PRP kit and injection gun. The injection gun seems kind of interesting because it states needle depth can be accurately set for precise delivery , it sounds great for all the people who are into needling in this forum.
Sorry my computer skills is not that great, so you need to type:
I've done a little digging for those of us here in America and I found Dr. Vincent Giampapa (he's French)in Newark New Jersy. He uses adult stem cells for skin rejuvenation (facelifts). I emailed his office to ask about acne scarring I'll post again when I get a response. I'm crossing my fingers!
I've done a little digging for those of us here in America and I found Dr. Vincent Giampapa (he's French)in Newark New Jersy. He uses adult stem cells for skin rejuvenation (facelifts). I emailed his office to ask about acne scarring I'll post again when I get a response. I'm crossing my fingers!
According to Dr. Giampapa's website ( http://www.youthfulneck.com/stem-cell-face-lifts.htm ) it appears that he is simply transplanting fat and injecting growth factors into both the donor fat and recipient site. He is not isolating, culturing, and injecting MSC.
Because of the line of work I am in, I have access to a listing of over 60, 000 Canadian physicians. If there is anyone confident enough in being able to convince doctors about using MSC for scar repair, let me know and I can send you a list of derms and surgeons for you to contact.
Because of the line of work I am in, I have access to a listing of over 60, 000 Canadian physicians. If there is anyone confident enough in being able to convince doctors about using MSC for scar repair, let me know and I can send you a list of derms and surgeons for you to contact.
I don't live in Canada, but this is a genius idea for someone who does! Awesome, Franklin!
Because of the line of work I am in, I have access to a listing of over 60, 000 Canadian physicians. If there is anyone confident enough in being able to convince doctors about using MSC for scar repair, let me know and I can send you a list of derms and surgeons for you to contact.I don't live in Canada, but this is a genius idea for someone who does! Awesome, Franklin!
If I can source a list of US derms and plastic surgeons, is there anyone interested in enlightening these docs on the use of MSC's for scars?
Because of the line of work I am in, I have access to a listing of over 60, 000 Canadian physicians. If there is anyone confident enough in being able to convince doctors about using MSC for scar repair, let me know and I can send you a list of derms and surgeons for you to contact.I don't live in Canada, but this is a genius idea for someone who does! Awesome, Franklin!
If I can source a list of US derms and plastic surgeons, is there anyone interested in enlightening these docs on the use of MSC's for scars?
Great idea, Franklin.
Yes, I would be interested. I am a marketing/design professional, and I could consult BRD in putting together an introductory letter on behalf of everyone here interested. I work with doctors and surgeons on a daily basis, creating marketing materials for their clinics, so I feel very comfortable writing something up that "speaks their language." I could make it very organized and look very professional. It would basically be a letter with sources and photos taken from other sites doing stem cell research, showing that there has been success. We could include the results of people on here, like icaretohelp, and others who are soon going to get it done.
Other random ideas: we could include a signed petition by as many acne scar sufferers as possible saying that they would be interested in this therapy if it were available in their area. I don't think doctors know that acne scar sufferers really do take things into their own hands.
I think we'd need to spell it out to doctors, and create a very clear, step by step guide, showing doctors all the places in the U.S. where they could have the stem cells cultured, how to do it, etc. We could also possibly provide links to videos that show how it is done, etc. I know doctors. I know how they are. Most of them will definitely NOT invest the time to research how to do it themselves unless it's a sure money-making bet. They need to be shown how easy and safe it is. I could do this very well, and would be up for the task.
What do you guys think?
Because of the line of work I am in, I have access to a listing of over 60, 000 Canadian physicians. If there is anyone confident enough in being able to convince doctors about using MSC for scar repair, let me know and I can send you a list of derms and surgeons for you to contact.
Hello, FT
Thanks for your PM. I have sent you email for you to send the list of docs.
Yes I certainly would widen my scope to all Canada and US -- there is bound to be a few brave doc who would be interested. If you have also US list available, please send it too.
If any doctors are at least open to considering experimenting with the SCT and PRP injection, extraction/injection should be easy enough for them. However, my guess is very few would probably be into learning about and working with live culture or simply do no have the facility to do so.
I feel if we can also research a list of labs locally that can successfully isolate and culture the 1) MSC in extracted fat and 2) PRP in extracted blood, and send this list along with the literature I will be compiling....It may help to make some doctors feel more inclined to try.
To this end, I am wondering if anyone know
what is the proper terms designated to this biotechnology of extracting and culturing 1) adipose cells derived MSC and 2) autologous blood derived PRP?
Once I have the exact procedure names to refer these biotechnology to the biotech professionals, then I can contact local labs in North America to find out which ones perform them AND will consent to doing them for patients if a MD or derm were to prescribe/order them.
Best wishes,
http://www.internationalshoulderjournal.or...ge=73;aulast=du
'Regarding facial rejuvenation and PRP, initial results are short-lived, inconsistent and further maintenance treatment is needed regarding facial wrinkle amelioration, as is the case with other fillers. It is not clear if "neocollagenesis" occurs after PRP rejuvenation therapy. Drawbacks of activated PRP, if used in the facial area, include the potential to micro-thrombosis in the region of the anterior facial vein, closed compartment syndrome and release of pro-inflammatory proteolytic activators from leucocytes.'
not sure what this all means tbh
I'll look into sourcing the US list ASAP. 2012, I'll send you the Canadian list within the next day.
2012 & holdontohope, you both have some really good ideas. Let's all work together to come up with a marketing strategy and overall plan for how best to approach these docs.
Because of the line of work I am in, I have access to a listing of over 60, 000 Canadian physicians. If there is anyone confident enough in being able to convince doctors about using MSC for scar repair, let me know and I can send you a list of derms and surgeons for you to contact.
Hello, FT
Thanks for your PM. I have sent you email for you to send the list of docs.
Yes I certainly would widen my scope to all Canada and US -- there is bound to be a few brave doc who would be interested. If you have also US list available, please send it too.
If any doctors are at least open to considering experimenting with the SCT and PRP injection, extraction/injection should be easy enough for them. However, my guess is very few would probably be into learning about and working with live culture or simply do no have the facility to do so.
I feel if we can also research a list of labs locally that can successfully isolate and culture the 1) MSC in extracted fat and 2) PRP in extracted blood, and send this list along with the literature I will be compiling....It may help to make some doctors feel more inclined to try.
To this end, I am wondering if anyone know
what is the proper terms designated to this biotechnology of extracting and culturing 1) adipose cells derived MSC and 2) autologous blood derived PRP?
Once I have the exact procedure names to refer these biotechnology to the biotech professionals, then I can contact local labs in North America to find out which ones perform them AND will consent to doing them for patients if a MD or derm were to prescribe/order them.
Best wishes,
Dont want to put a damper on this for people but I work harvesting stem cells for patients with bone marrow transplant rejection. I also know a doctor in chicago who does stem cell transplants, I will not give his name out because the answer to your question to him is NO.
My point is the use of stem cells for patients is in it's infancy. Its a very controlled treatment with strict protocols and guidelines and is being used only in a very limited manner. It has a great future particularily wth the change we have at the presidency. To be used to acne scars? Mabe once they delvelop the ability to use it for burn patients then they MAY be able to help those with acne scars. Your best bet is to keep track of it's use with burn patients.
Focus your concentration on treatments that can help you. dont be like the dog chasing the tail. This Bulgarian "doctor" sounds like he means well but is clueless.