Dont want to put a damper on this for people but I work harvesting stem cells for patients with bone marrow transplant rejection. I also know a doctor in chicago who does stem cell transplants, I will not give his name out because the answer to your question to him is NO.

My point is the use of stem cells for patients is in it's infancy. Its a very controlled treatment with strict protocols and guidelines and is being used only in a very limited manner. It has a great future particularily wth the change we have at the presidency. To be used to acne scars? Mabe once they delvelop the ability to use it for burn patients then they MAY be able to help those with acne scars. Your best bet is to keep track of it's use with burn patients.

Focus your concentration on treatments that can help you. dont be like the dog chasing the tail. This Bulgarian "doctor" sounds like he means well but is clueless.

your a dick

How do you explain the fact that other countries are already using stem cell therapy for acne scars?

Dont want to put a damper on this for people but I work harvesting stem cells for patients with bone marrow transplant rejection. I also know a doctor in chicago who does stem cell transplants, I will not give his name out because the answer to your question to him is NO.

My point is the use of stem cells for patients is in it's infancy. Its a very controlled treatment with strict protocols and guidelines and is being used only in a very limited manner. It has a great future particularily wth the change we have at the presidency. To be used to acne scars? Mabe once they delvelop the ability to use it for burn patients then they MAY be able to help those with acne scars. Your best bet is to keep track of it's use with burn patients.

Focus your concentration on treatments that can help you. dont be like the dog chasing the tail. This Bulgarian "doctor" sounds like he means well but is clueless.

Hello, thunderbay

There are two things I would like to address:

1) Your point re: the use of SCT not likely to see its widely available application soon for acne scars (in North America) --- is well taken. And what it does, for me, is another reminder that:

This is essentially NOT an issue with the doctors. Most (not all) doctors follow money. Given the high price tag of SCT for acne scars in other countries, I am positive most cosmetic surgeons here would be more than interested, for the sake of money and fame, if only they knew their "legal ass" can be covered.

Rather, the heart of the issues rests with the conservative, cumbersome/ineffective, pharmaceutical industry-driven and corrupted governmental agency's approval and regulatory politics in North America....

I believe, after being fully informed of all its risks and unknowns, a patient should have the right of decision to use his/her own stem cells and blood in any treatment of his/her own condition. And yes, I believe the best available medical technology/resources SHOULD be provided to help the patient FOR FREE in his/her choice of treatment!! And I believe this is so regardless to who the patient is and what condition or illness.

I understand this is a matter of political opinion and you may not agree with me. But I have a sincere question that I hope you would carefully consider and give us your opinion (especially since you work in biotech field harvesting stem cells) :

Despite your view already expressed in your post above, if you must point out one thing that would facilitate and speed up the process of making SCT available here in North America for acne scars, what could it possibly be?

2) If I may be blunt, I think you are not only being disrespectful but seriously failing to understand the value of this thread to many, by calling BRD "clueless" -- most people here feel quite the opposite.

Not all countries/people are willing victims of overly powerful and corrupted FDA and Health Canada alike. BRD is a well-informed and progressive-minded dermatologist/fellow scar sufferer, devoting much of his professional knowledge, time and energy to help people here get informed of cutting-edge treatment options available -- options undreamed of only a few years ago, have now benefited thousands worldwide, yet denied to the people of this country (USA, Canada etc).

If you had pursued a career in dermatology because of your determination to help yourself and others rid of scars AND you had valuable, scientifically-documented info on progressive treatment options medically shown to be safe & extremely effective AND you knew that this info may change the lives of many desperate people here on this board....

What would you do?

How do you explain the fact that other countries are already using stem cell therapy for acne scars?

tunderbay please explain ...

I'm sorry if this has already been answered... I did look but couldn't find the answer so thought I'd try again.

Does anyone know if this treatment has any effect on red marks or acne in general? I'd like to get it done but seeing as I still suffer from moderate acne/red marks I don't know whether there's any point... spending so much to get rid of the scars, only to get more seems a waste.

Or will this only work on depressed/raised scars?

bump

Rather, the heart of the issues rests with the conservative, cumbersome/ineffective, pharmaceutical industry-driven and corrupted governmental agency's approval and regulatory politics in North America....

Marvelously stated, 2012. You're contributions to this post have been just as valuable as BRD's. That's a compliment to you both!

Info on stem cell regulation in the US: http://www.stemtechlab.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7

Hello, BRD

Thanks for the article -- really helpful.

You are absolutely right.

In this article dated Dec 12, 2008, "stem cells" and "adipose tissue" were all over the place. It seems to me that Aoluosi first started doing Isolagen ( ) in China and has been for a few years. Only very recently, say, in the last year or so, they started some form of stem cell therapy such as the Autologous Adipose-Derived Stem Cell therapy (AADSC). And if what you said in your fist post is correct, Aoluosi's associate doctors may have collaborated with Japanese physicians (remember Seishin?) to develop the AADSC in China with, apparently, great success.

The great news, for all of you interested here, is, the above article by Aoluosi says they are so successful and confident with their acne scar treatment: that the treated acne pits can be improved by 90%- 98%, otherwise the patient's money will be refunded.

Now, that is a very ambitious promise!

BRD, indeed info in Aoluosi's website caused many confusions due to:

1) Bad organization. there are MANY articles but no clear, effective organizational system to database/access them -- just plain chaotic. For example, I still can't find the exact path to follow in order to access the article you quoted above, I can only use your link to access it.

2) Incoherent use of terminology all over the place. For example, , in some places is fibroblast or collagen-producing cells, in other places it becomes Stem Cells, in some other places it was used to describe the cells cultured in Isolagen treatment -- I am still not sure what it is exactly.

So I have come to the conclusion that we can not rely on their website to get precise details and answers. The best way is to consult the doctors there familiar with all these treatments.

That being said, another great news we can almost be certain from that article: two different approaches to treat depressed acne scars were offered:

1) --- Isolagen?? or Isolagen + stem cell therapy?? Major confusion here (see bellow)

2)-- similar to your method AADSC and that at Seishin, but main confusion here is that STEM CELL is not mentioned in this procedure.

I have taken the last 2 paragraphs of that article, which describe the two treatment, and translated them below. I have reorganized the 2 original paragraphs to present them in 3 separate sections in my translation - I believe this is how they were meant to be organized and makes a huge difference in clarity.

I tried to stick as close/authentic as possible to the Chinese words/expression used, with minimum interpretation marked by []. My hope is that all readers familiar with similar procedures can offer their own insights that may help to clear some of the confusions I will discuss below.

Since I have little knowledge of medical terms, lay person's language is used. If anyone were able to correct them and plug in the appropriate medical terms, it may be more helpful for others to reference these procedures to their doctors. For key terms I am unsure of their exact English equivalents, I used the original Chinese term, followed by my translation attempt and "?" in brackets -- to avoid further confusion. (I tried consulting online Chinese-English medical dictionary to no avail).

From (Aoluosi's treatment for Acne Scars)

http://www.aoluosi.com20081212 11:44

1) (Self Rejuvenation Stem Cell Treatment?):

A rice-grain sized skin sample is taken from the back of the patient's ear. Bio-technology is then used to isolate skin's stem cells from the sample. Next, a culturing solution is used to synthesize and multiply (precursor of fibroblast cells?) in an environment free of bacteria or virus. The final culture is then re-injected back to patient's dermis (or below the dermis?)

(precursor of fibroblast cells?) can produce collagen and is the essential component in the synthesis of (elastin?). Such process will increase the thickness and the density of collagen in the dermis, restore skin's elasticity, smooth out wrinkles, and resurface depressed scars. The result will last and the area treated will not regress.

2) (Autologous Adipose-Derived Cell Culture and Transfer? )

Using localized liposuction, fat is taken from the patient's body. Next biotechnology is sued to (extract and culture?) (adipose-derived cells?)in a bacteria/virus free environment . After cultivation, the (most active/vital and newly divided/differentiated?) adipose-derived cells are then re-injected back to the patients' (subcutaneous adipose/fat layer). The adipose-derived cells that survive the procedure will continue to grow and result in smoothing out the depressed scars.Results are lasting and semi-permanent.

[indications]

The above are two different treatment for depressed acne scars. An accurate pre-assessment will determine which treatment a patient needs, or if both approaches are required to achieve the best result.

Some depressed scars are caused by damage to the dermis, while others may be a result of damage to the subcutaneous fat layer.

(Self Rejuvenation Stem Cell Treatment?) is indicated for treatment of damage to the dermis. Generally speaking, shallower scars are caused by damage to the dermis, such as chicken pot mark and less severe acne pits.

(Autologous Adipose-Derived Cell culture and transfer?) is suitable to treat scars from damage to the subcutaneous fat tissue. This type of scars are usually larger and its atrophy deeper, sometimes with layers of scar tissues embedded under the site of damage in the subcutaneous fat tissue. This type of deep atrophy of skin often occurs toward the later [healing] phase of nodular/cystic acne, or as a result of more severe trauma from accident or injury.

Appropriate choice of treatment should be prescribed to target each of the two type of scars to achieve the best result.

So this is good news, we at least know that Aoluosi offers 1) Isolagen or 2) some form of stem cell therapy AND 3) Autologous Adipose-Derived cell regeneration and may use all of them on a patient if necessary.

Now the confusing part:

1) The description of seems exactly like Isolagen, Yet it says the skin's STEM CELL () is isolated from the sample and cultured to create large amount of (precursor of fibroblast?)... I was under the impression Isolagen does NOT involve stem cells, just fibroblast. Also, what is produced when culturing stem cells? more stem cells? or fibroblast? (or maybe my translation guess is way off on this one?)

2) The process of sounds just right. The only problem, here it does not say STEM CELL (), just (adipose cells), unless "" means Adipose Derived Stem Cells? Just culturing and multiplying the Adipose cells makes no sense, therefore i assume it must just be a mistake. However, one would think that such essential word, , would be absolutely necessary to describe this procedure, but it is not used here.

So, in summary, "" (stem cell) here seems to be referred as the cells cultured in Isolagen, while no mention of it in the supposedly AADSC procedure -- contrary and exactly opposite to what we would expect -- very confusing.

I think very likely they are just linguistic mistakes due to the very loose and incoherent use of terms by the author of the article. There may be no way to find out for sure until getting them clarified by Aoluosi.

Hi 2012,

I think you are right that there is loose and incoherent language used by the author. Either way, it certainly requires more investigation and one-on-one talk with the physician in charge at Aoluosi.

Thanks for translating the text. Your hard work and dedication to this thread is very much appreciated.

question for BRD - this is kinda off topic but it is to do with scaring. in the past when i had moderate acne i did not get any scars. but now even though i only get 1 or 2 tiny tiny little spots it leaves a indented scar! im getting really worried becuase im getting scars everywhere (like large pores / ice pic scars) is there anything that you could suggest to get my skin to stop scaring so easily. it never used to scar in the past ... the only treatment i have had done was two 40 - 50 % glycolic/salcilic acid peels done about one and a half years ago (these were not the deep peels that you would get done my a doctor they were milder ones, wher you had to get a series of 6 peels done to get the disired results - i only had 2 done and did not have any bad reactions from them just a lil redness that disspapeard within a day. i get alot of acne on my back and chest but i never get any scars from them. its really worrying me becuase i know whenever i get a tiny tiny spot it will leave a scar

is there anything that can be done ?

also is there anything you could suggest for large pores ? would stem cells work for this aswel ?

Thanks

I don't know why your skin is scarring from relatively mild acne, whilst it wasn't doing so before. Do you have any sytemic inflammatory disease by any chance?

You did mention that you have localized Seborrheic Dermatitis. This is an inflammatory dermatological condition, which some hypothesize to be an immunological reaction Malasezzia. It could also be an reaction to other microorganisms. Either way, inflammation is one of your biggest enemies when it comes to the way your skin will respond when damaged.

More inflammation generally means more scarring. Growth factors and interleukins are expressed differently in the inflammated derma. Thus I suggest you get some medical grade DMSO at 70% (it has to be MEDICAL grade) and apply it on the skin once a day. DMSO is dangerous when used improperly because it is one of the strongest solvents and dermal penetrants known to us. So your skin has to be cleaned with a little soap and A LOT of water before applying it. Otherwise anything with a relatively small molecular structure, including chemicals within soap, will be driven into your bloodstream and cause systemic effects in your body.

Anyway, DMSO may be effective for your condition because:

a) it is a very powerful antioxidant and anti-inflammatory agent

b) it softens collagen and helps dissolve disorganized collagen bundles

c) increases bloodflow and nutrient supply to diseased tissues

If you are going to be using DMSO, you will have to stop using whatever lotions you are currently putting on your skin. Your skin will get temporarily dry from DMSO, so if you need a moisturizer, then use pure tamanu oil and/or emu oil about three hours after DMSO application.

Keep us posted...

BRD

I just like to say i really admire you as a person and what you have to say is very interesting and informative. I would like to know if the new prp regeneration therapy will be right for me, i've never had acne but have burn scars from a beauty product , most of my scars look like depression but a few is flat and shiny.

Many thanks CT

Hi,

I am not sure if PRP would help you. Please send me some photos of your skin and I will reply as soon as I can.

BRD,

Is there anyway you could help finding a doctor in the U.S that performs stem cell injections? I am going to see my doc. on Monday and I am going to bring it up to him. He has already recommended blood injections, but he never mentioned separating the platelets in the blood, just simply withdrawling blood and re-injecting it into my scars. But if you could help me find a doctor in the states that are doing stem cell, that would be great. Thank you for all your posts.

Hi,

I think Franklin Towers mentioned a doctor in California who may be working with stem cells. Otherwise I don't know of anyone in the US who has as of yet done AMI. If I do hear about such a doctor I will post the information here.

BRD,

Thanks for the suggestions.

I have some questions:

1 a) Once every two months needle at a max depth of 2mm (if you want to be on the safe side go with 1.5mm depth)

Are you referring to using a dermaroller of 2mm or 1.5mm?

Or do you recommend I get this done by dry a needling professional, such as the Chinese lady whose portfolio you saw, and just ask the digital machine to be set to maximum penetration of 1.5 - 2mm? What would be the desirable thickness of needles used for small icepicks and boxcar of 1mm - 4 mm in diameters?

And for this one, being a slow healer, am I looking at about 5 days of downtime after?

b) Followed up by PRP injection

I did read your Autologous Blood Injection thread before. And I am a bit confused.

Needling and then PRP injection make sense to me, but in that thread you said to Teamwork:

"...it is useful to needle the scar but only after the haematoma has formed. It is however important to wait approximately 24 hours before you needle. This procedure will be fairly easy because the haematoma will have pigmented the atrophied area of your skin, so you can simply use the pigment to find each and every scar you've injected with blood...."

I suppose these are similar principles but in reverse order: one induces micro wound then introduces blood to enhance the healing response; and the other one creates haematoma first and then induce the micro wound to kick the skin into repair mode?

A few hours after needling, the wounds, I assume, would still be quite raw and bright red. I was told the wounds would still be bleeding a little and thinly scabbed over. Do I just inject right at the wounded spot? (It just seems a bit "not right" to be doing that). Would inadequate rookie injection skill potentially does undesirable damage to the already injured skin?

I used to inject Kanalog into my cysts before, and a few times I either overdid it or injected too deep and created atrophy that took 1-3 months to recover. Maybe I am a bad candidate for self-injection of this nature.

Are there any "stopper" device I can use (for the practice phase at the beginning) to make sure I don't go over a certain depth when injecting. Where can I find it?

2) Needle ~3 times a week at 0.5mm - 0.75mm (for sensitive skin simply use 0.5mm)

You mean dermaroller type of needling, too? And for this one, is there any downtime? (i.e. can I walk out my door the next day without make up?)

3) Daily light therapy (~4J/cm2)

Yes, I already purchased DPL, still waiting for it to arrive. I plan to do it daily.

******

It would take me at least a few months before I am even able to make it to the Far East for Stem Cell Therapy. So in the meantime, I will give the above a try. This may help to fill my scars a little, so by the time I do get to do SCT, it may cost me considerably less than if I were to do it now (since, for example, Aoluosi charges by per ml of SC injectable needed, so I assume the less/shallower the scars, the less it would cost).

But I really resonate with the principles of SCT. For the first time, there is an effective acne scar therapy that doesn't make my stomach knot (on the thought of the "immediately-after-procedure picture" and the downtime face), plus improvement SCT can offer seems phenomenal compared to any other therapies I know. If Aoluosi's promise of 90%-98% improvement can really be delivered in one full treatment cycle of 3 injections, even if SCT is going to break my bank account, I am going for it. I just had to be patient, and that's hard since I can't quite just leave for Asia yet.

That being said, have you ever estimated what would be a fair price range for SCT (not Cellution, but traditional method of culturing), I mean a price that is fair to the doctor's work and fair to the patient's wallet? Aoluosi charges $660 RNB per 1ml final injectable, is that fair in your opinion? How many ml each time do you think one needs for a small scar (say grade 3, 1mm in diameter) and for a bigger, deeper scar (say grade 4, 4mm)?

I am also wondering does SCT work well for improving:

1) Tiny scars such as scared pores

2) Very fibrous scar (that even the touch of my finger can feel the scar tissue mass underneath), these are usually under deeper and bigger scars

3) "Orrange-peel effect" or rolling scars (a small area on my right cheek close to my nose has this type of scaring).

4) Hyper-pigmentation

And just to summarize, procedures should be done in the following order to optimize results:

[A]. Invasive treatment if used (needling/subcision etc.)

. PRP injection (once every two weeks)

[C]. SCT (if used)

[D] Light therapy (daily)

A, B, C on the same day (or fairly close).

Should Light therapy be used immediately after on the same day of invasive treatment, when the wound is still raw?

Will SCT also help with improving overall skin tone (evenness and luminosity) and texture, if it is injected to scars spread out through large area of the face (cheeks, forehead, etc.)? Or does it only effect each tiny spot where the scar is injected? What other things would you recommend for improving overall skin tone and texture of the whole face? For example: what method of exfoliation to use on a regular basis to keep pores clear ( that is, If I don't want to use acid, especially after needling and blood injection or SCT)?

THANK YOU for your help!

Warm regards,

Hi 2012,

-Yes I was referring to the dermaroller, however the needle depth recommendations hold true for any sort of needling. As I say, 1.5mm depth is in my opinion the best option because it is minimally risky and yet has been shown to cause increased collagen synthesis. As for the diameter of the needles, I'd say go with 30/31 gauge needles if you are going to be doing individual needling. The downtimes will be around 5-7 days.

-The needling plus blood injection procedure can be done in any order, however from a practical standpoint it is easier to inject PRP into the scars first and wait for the haematoma to form. That way if you are doing individual scar needling you'll know where to needle. Otherwise the scars will be plumped up from the procedure and it will be harder to identify them.

-I suggest you don't inject yourself because there are some risks involved. Are there no doctors where you live that do PRP? Either way, use 30 gauge needles to inject. These are very fine and will not cause any permament damage to your skin.

-I am not sure about a stopper devise, however Lamarr1986 has talked about a stopper device that he uses at home. No matter what, if you do use some contraption as a stopper, make sure it is completely sterilized before needling.

-When I was talking about .5mm - .75mm legths I was indeed referring to dermarollers. With .75mm you will likely be red for a day. That's about it.

-I'm not sure what price range to give you for SCT. It's all a matter of which country you go to for this particular procedure. The Japanese clinic is expensive simply because of the general cost of living in the country. The same procedure performed in a country with 1/4 its GDP/capita may very well be 1/4 the price. The reason I say this is because SCT/AMI is labour intensive. In other words, it does not require a physician to purchase the raw materials (ie: as in the case of an expensive synthetic filler) in order to do the injection. He/she and/or his/her staff simply need to do lab work. That work can be measured in terms of hours necessary to harvest, isolate and culture the stem cells. As such, the price of service should have a direct mathematical relationship with the cost of labour in the particular country.

-The prices you quoted at Aoluosi seem fair. As for 1ml, it can actually go quite far. Nonetheless, depending on what they are doing, they may overinject in each of your scars in order to achieve maximal results. When autologous substances are injected, over-injection is preferred as some of the biomaterial reabsorbed. I would say 1ml can treat a few grade 4 scars at once.

-SCT will likely improve the 4 conditions you listed. However until I do it myself I can't tell you exactly what will happen. I can only say that a well done traitional fat transfer (even with its limited amount of MSCs) has greatly improved some of my patient's skin conditions, including general texture, depth of scars, coloration, etc...

-ABC should be done on the same day. Seishin does offer the A and D on the same day. I believe the advantage to this is that the platelets attract stem cells when coagulating. If PRP is combined with SCT/AMI then the two procedures would work in a synergistic fashion.

-Light therapy can be used when the wound is raw.

-I suggest you use the following natural and inexpensive products to improve the look of your skin:

a) baking soda mask twice a day for 20-30 minutes each time (baking soda mixed with a little water)

b) moisturize with tamanu or emu oil

c) Medical grade DMSO only if you are willing to follow very strict instructions for its proper use.

Best regards...

BRD,

I have mild systemic inflammatory diseases (hypothyroidism, seborrheic dermatitis, chrohn's, and psoriasis) which explains why I healed so poorly from surgery. Can MSC's and ECM materials work as good for me towards achieving scar-free healing as with anyone else or am I in a hopeless situation?

Could I even use my own MSC's for the purpose of acheiving scar repair or would they be considered "impure" becucase of my autoimune conditions? Would I have to be cured of these conditions first (using MSC's) before using MSC's for my scar?

Dont want to put a damper on this for people but I work harvesting stem cells for patients with bone marrow transplant rejection. I also know a doctor in chicago who does stem cell transplants, I will not give his name out because the answer to your question to him is NO.

My point is the use of stem cells for patients is in it's infancy. Its a very controlled treatment with strict protocols and guidelines and is being used only in a very limited manner. It has a great future particularily wth the change we have at the presidency. To be used to acne scars? Mabe once they delvelop the ability to use it for burn patients then they MAY be able to help those with acne scars. Your best bet is to keep track of it's use with burn patients.

Focus your concentration on treatments that can help you. dont be like the dog chasing the tail. This Bulgarian "doctor" sounds like he means well but is clueless.

Hello, thunderbay

There are two things I would like to address:

1) Your point re: the use of SCT not likely to see its widely available application soon for acne scars (in North America) --- is well taken. And what it does, for me, is another reminder that:

This is essentially NOT an issue with the doctors. Most (not all) doctors follow money. Given the high price tag of SCT for acne scars in other countries, I am positive most cosmetic surgeons here would be more than interested, for the sake of money and fame, if only they knew their "legal ass" can be covered.

Rather, the heart of the issues rests with the conservative, cumbersome/ineffective, pharmaceutical industry-driven and corrupted governmental agency's approval and regulatory politics in North America....

I believe, after being fully informed of all its risks and unknowns, a patient should have the right of decision to use his/her own stem cells and blood in any treatment of his/her own condition. And yes, I believe the best available medical technology/resources SHOULD be provided to help the patient FOR FREE in his/her choice of treatment!! And I believe this is so regardless to who the patient is and what condition or illness.

I understand this is a matter of political opinion and you may not agree with me. But I have a sincere question that I hope you would carefully consider and give us your opinion (especially since you work in biotech field harvesting stem cells) :

Despite your view already expressed in your post above, if you must point out one thing that would facilitate and speed up the process of making SCT available here in North America for acne scars, what could it possibly be?

2) If I may be blunt, I think you are not only being disrespectful but seriously failing to understand the value of this thread to many, by calling BRD "clueless" -- most people here feel quite the opposite.

Not all countries/people are willing victims of overly powerful and corrupted FDA and Health Canada alike. BRD is a well-informed and progressive-minded dermatologist/fellow scar sufferer, devoting much of his professional knowledge, time and energy to help people here get informed of cutting-edge treatment options available -- options undreamed of only a few years ago, have now benefited thousands worldwide, yet denied to the people of this country (USA, Canada etc).

If you had pursued a career in dermatology because of your determination to help yourself and others rid of scars AND you had valuable, scientifically-documented info on progressive treatment options medically shown to be safe & extremely effective AND you knew that this info may change the lives of many desperate people here on this board....

What would you do?

 

You have a very pie in the sky look at life IMO. First of all President Bush because of his religious ideology has held up the development of stem cell therapy.

Secondly, if you actually had a clue to what happens during the process you would understand that it will be used for the most serious of medical conditions.

Why does anything of value in life have to be offered "free". Do you expect taxpayer's to pay for your cosmetic procedures?

I too have acne scars but would never expect this.

What would speed up the process you ask? Nothing. I will reveal something for you to give you a better idea. I have a serious arthritic condition called Ankylosing Spondylitis, I have been in touch with an immunologist in Illinois regarding receiving a stem cell transplant to "cure it". They have yet to develop a protocol for it although the doctor told me "we should". My point is in the bigger picture (which all of you "desperate sufferers" are failing to realize the medical profession does not feel any urgency in speeding up the process for you . You probably will not see it in your life time. Sorry probably not the answer you want.

Because of the line of work I am in, I have access to a listing of over 60, 000 Canadian physicians. If there is anyone confident enough in being able to convince doctors about using MSC for scar repair, let me know and I can send you a list of derms and surgeons for you to contact.

Awesome stuff Franklins Tower. Keep up the good the work... 🙂

Because of the line of work I am in, I have access to a listing of over 60, 000 Canadian physicians. If there is anyone confident enough in being able to convince doctors about using MSC for scar repair, let me know and I can send you a list of derms and surgeons for you to contact.

I don't live in Canada, but this is a genius idea for someone who does! Awesome, Franklin!

 

If I can source a list of US derms and plastic surgeons, is there anyone interested in enlightening these docs on the use of MSC's for scars?

 

Great idea, Franklin.

Yes, I would be interested. I am a marketing/design professional, and I could consult BRD in putting together an introductory letter on behalf of everyone here interested. I work with doctors and surgeons on a daily basis, creating marketing materials for their clinics, so I feel very comfortable writing something up that "speaks their language." I could make it very organized and look very professional. It would basically be a letter with sources and photos taken from other sites doing stem cell research, showing that there has been success. We could include the results of people on here, like icaretohelp, and others who are soon going to get it done.

Other random ideas: we could include a signed petition by as many acne scar sufferers as possible saying that they would be interested in this therapy if it were available in their area. I don't think doctors know that acne scar sufferers really do take things into their own hands.

I think we'd need to spell it out to doctors, and create a very clear, step by step guide, showing doctors all the places in the U.S. where they could have the stem cells cultured, how to do it, etc. We could also possibly provide links to videos that show how it is done, etc. I know doctors. I know how they are. Most of them will definitely NOT invest the time to research how to do it themselves unless it's a sure money-making bet. They need to be shown how easy and safe it is. I could do this very well, and would be up for the task.

What do you guys think?

 

Great idea holdontohope... I think we're going to get this train rolling along. It's all about critical mass. Once it's reached, the chain reaction is irreversible. The resultant byproduct will be more and better treatment options available to all of you... 🙂

Because of the line of work I am in, I have access to a listing of over 60, 000 Canadian physicians. If there is anyone confident enough in being able to convince doctors about using MSC for scar repair, let me know and I can send you a list of derms and surgeons for you to contact.

Hello, FT

Thanks for your PM. I have sent you email for you to send the list of docs.

Yes I certainly would widen my scope to all Canada and US -- there is bound to be a few brave doc who would be interested. If you have also US list available, please send it too.

If any doctors are at least open to considering experimenting with the SCT and PRP injection, extraction/injection should be easy enough for them. However, my guess is very few would probably be into learning about and working with live culture or simply do no have the facility to do so.

I feel if we can also research a list of labs locally that can successfully isolate and culture the 1) MSC in extracted fat and 2) PRP in extracted blood, and send this list along with the literature I will be compiling....It may help to make some doctors feel more inclined to try.

To this end, I am wondering if anyone know

what is the proper terms designated to this biotechnology of extracting and culturing 1) adipose cells derived MSC and 2) autologous blood derived PRP?

Once I have the exact procedure names to refer these biotechnology to the biotech professionals, then I can contact local labs in North America to find out which ones perform them AND will consent to doing them for patients if a MD or derm were to prescribe/order them.

Best wishes,

 

Good ideas 2012... Glad to see that Franklin Towers, holdontohope and you are all working together on this.

I am not sure what you mean by proper terms designated to stem cell related biotechnology. Many of terms used herein are the very same used in the biotech field. If you need any specific procedural terminology let me know...

BTW, here are some companies that provide various tools, reagents and supplies that can be used for stem cell research related to isolation and culturing. I've used the company listed under the first link to get some of my supplies:

1) http://www.invitrogen.com/site/us/en/home/...Stem-Cells.html

2) http://www.millipore.com/stemcell/stma/mes...&type=mesen

3) http://www.stemcell.com/product_catalog/cu...CFQa-sgodrF7W0g

4) http://www.hyclone.com/advancestem/qualifiedstemcell.htm

Dont want to put a damper on this for people but I work harvesting stem cells for patients with bone marrow transplant rejection. I also know a doctor in chicago who does stem cell transplants, I will not give his name out because the answer to your question to him is NO.

My point is the use of stem cells for patients is in it's infancy. Its a very controlled treatment with strict protocols and guidelines and is being used only in a very limited manner. It has a great future particularily wth the change we have at the presidency. To be used to acne scars? Mabe once they delvelop the ability to use it for burn patients then they MAY be able to help those with acne scars. Your best bet is to keep track of it's use with burn patients.

Focus your concentration on treatments that can help you. dont be like the dog chasing the tail. This Bulgarian "doctor" sounds like he means well but is clueless.

Don't worry, you're not "putting a damper on this for people" because you haven't presented any evidence to counter what has been discussed in this thread thus far.

The doctor you mentioned who does stem cell transplants in Chicago, likely extracts pre-chemo bone marrow derived hematopoetic and/or mesenchymal stem cells, which are then used for allogeneic hematopoietic engraftment to prevent graft-versus-host disease. Such procedures can be used to essentially reboot/rebuild an organism's immune system (for example if destroyed by chemo or otherwise altered by autoimmune diseases) and indeed help neutralize (partially or fully) a wide variety of degenerative diseases.

The type of procedure described above is very much unrelated to the use of adipose derived mesenchymal stem cells that can be used for dermal regeneration. Please don't talk about things you don't understand, unless you are here to (a) learn (b) help others and present evidence for each of your argumentative statements.

I should also mention that the doctor you know is most likely either an oncologist, immunologist or hemotologist. Thus I would never tell him how to do his job in his particular field of medicine. I am afterall not in his line of work, just as he is not in my line of work. Thereby if he indeed said "NO" to the use of stem cells for acne scar repair, then I simply encourage him to drop what he's doing right now, go back to university and get retrained in dermatology. After this I suggest he work as a research dermatologist who experiments with MSCs. Finally when he has done this, you are welcome to yet again ask him if ADMSC can or can't be used to help acne scar patients. At this point in time (~5 years in the future), I will be more than happy to hear his loud and resounding opinion on the matter. Even then, if his opinion remains a "NO", I would simply disagree with him just as I do with many of my current colleagues. Yet truth be told, by the time the doctor you know does retrain himself in dermatology, dermal stem cell therapies will be relatively widespread and the argument will have already been neutralized. The same goes for you...

Dont want to put a damper on this for people but I work harvesting stem cells for patients with bone marrow transplant rejection. I also know a doctor in chicago who does stem cell transplants, I will not give his name out because the answer to your question to him is NO.

My point is the use of stem cells for patients is in it's infancy. Its a very controlled treatment with strict protocols and guidelines and is being used only in a very limited manner. It has a great future particularily wth the change we have at the presidency. To be used to acne scars? Mabe once they delvelop the ability to use it for burn patients then they MAY be able to help those with acne scars. Your best bet is to keep track of it's use with burn patients.

Focus your concentration on treatments that can help you. dont be like the dog chasing the tail. This Bulgarian "doctor" sounds like he means well but is clueless.

Don't worry, you're not "putting a damper on this for people" because you haven't presented any evidence to counter what has been discussed in this thread thus far.

The doctor you mentioned who does stem cell transplants in Chicago, likely extracts pre-chemo bone marrow derived hematopoetic and/or mesenchymal stem cells, which are then used for allogeneic hematopoietic engraftment to prevent graft-versus-host disease. Such procedures can be used to essentially reboot/rebuild an organism's immune system (for example if destroyed by chemo or otherwise altered by autoimmune diseases) and indeed help neutralize (partially or fully) a wide variety of degenerative diseases.

The type of procedure described above is very much unrelated to the use of adipose derived mesenchymal stem cells that can be used for dermal regeneration. Please don't talk about things you don't understand, unless you are here to (a) learn (b) help others and present evidence for each of your argumentative statements.

I should also mention that the doctor you know is most likely either an oncologist, immunologist or hemotologist. Thus I would never tell him how to do his job in his particular field of medicine. I am afterall not in his line of work, just as he is not in my line of work. Thereby if he indeed said "NO" to the use of stem cells for acne scar repair, then I simply encourage him to drop what he's doing right now, go back to university and get retrained in dermatology. After this I suggest he work as a research dermatologist who experiments with MSCs. Finally when he has done this, you are welcome to yet again ask him if ADMSC can or can't be used to help acne scar patients. At this point in time (~5 years in the future), I will be more than happy to hear his loud and resounding opinion on the matter. Even then, if his opinion remains a "NO", I would simply disagree with him just as I do with many of my current colleagues. Yet truth be told, by the time the doctor you know does retrain himself in dermatology, dermal stem cell therapies will be relatively widespread and the argument will have already been neutralized. The same goes for you...

 

I truely wish you well.

You have a very pie in the sky look at life IMO. First of all President Bush because of his religious ideology has held up the development of stem cell therapy.

This is precisely why many other countries offer advanced stem cell therapies that are just being considered in the US. You've just proven one of the primary points of this thread. Thanks...

Secondly, if you actually had a clue to what happens during the process you would understand that it will be used for the most serious of medical conditions.

So you are an expert on stem cell therapies? OK, let's deliberate this! I am more than happy to have an intellectual debate with you. You present all the evidence you can find to counter what I've said thus far and I will likewise present evidence to support my statements. After that we'll let people decide for themselves who understands "the process" and who doesn't.

Why does anything of value in life have to be offered "free". Do you expect taxpayer's to pay for your cosmetic procedures?

I too have acne scars but would never expect this.

Does it look like people on this website expect anything for free? BTW, the treatment of debilitating acne scars is not a cosmetic procedure. It is in fact a reconstructive procedure. The fact that US medical authorities and insurance companies don't treat it as such is a testament to the degradation of the system as a whole.

What would speed up the process you ask? Nothing.

Oh I see, you are now prophet as well. You can see the future, and in that future we acne scar sufferers continue to suffer for a long long time... What other bleak forecasts do you have for the rest of us blind folk?

I will reveal something for you to give you a better idea. I have a serious arthritic condition called Ankylosing Spondylitis, I have been in touch with an immunologist in Illinois regarding receiving a stem cell transplant to "cure it". They have yet to develop a protocol for it although the doctor told me "we should".

There are already doctors doing this, just not in the US. You already know the reason.

My point is in the bigger picture (which all of you "desperate sufferers" are failing to realize the medical profession does not feel any urgency in speeding up the process for you.

Thank you for validating the existence of this thread. It is precisely made to encourage acne scar sufferers to push for change, because as you say "the medical profession[al] does not feel any urgency in speeding up the process for [them]." Once again, I appreciate how you've proven that people should stand up, educate themselves and stimulate the medial professionals to change, rather then wait for them to do it on their own.

Sometimes one has to plant the seeds him/herself in order for the flowers to grow, let alone bloom...

You probably will not see it in your life time. Sorry probably not the answer you want.

Thank you Nostradamus, your optimistic rhetoric is just wonderful. You have sobered us up.

I guess your words of wisdom must mean that we are already 60-80 years in the future, passed our "lifetimes" as you say... After all, how can it not be so when the technology already exists to extract, isolate and culture ADMSCs? I did not know I am no longer alive. Although it does somehow feel that way when I am reminded of the sadness, anger and feeling of hopelessness that serious acne scars can bring about.

Do some research and carefully read this thread... You'll find that even private companies have already developed tools (albeit expensive) that make this type of procedure more accessible (as in simplified) to dermatologists and plastic surgeons. Even the cumbersome FDA is looking into allowing the use of Celution in the US. Yet as I say, one doesn't even need this tech to do this type of procedure. One simply needs patience, knowledge, creativity and a zest to be the best!

And thanks for calling me clueless... It's one more reason for me to try harder to do what I have to do to make the unfortunate reality of scarred skin disappear from our lives and hence exist as no more than dry ink on just another page in the book of medical history.

I truely wish you well.

I also truly wish you well.

I hope you understand that I, like you, am astonished and angered by how backward and tainted the medical profession is in many respects. It has become nothing more than a perceived basket of riches for those that seek material wealth and societal prestige. However, patients have a lot more power than they realize. Once they make the psychological leap from seeing themselves as helpless victims to being motivated revolutionaries, anything becomes possible.

You see, doctors are nothing more than ordinary people who think they are extraordinary. This feeling is nothing more than a fallacy that makes them believe in the greatest illusion of all, that of having power and control. It also makes them very weak when placed under the microscope, for then it becomes obvious that they are not gods, but subservient puppets. Alas, beneath it all doctors are susceptible to the same stimuli that make people in general behave as sheep in a heard. Thus like anyone else, they too can be co-opted and made to follow the heard where the sheepherder has commanded it to go...

PS: If you don't mind me asking, how advanced is your AS condition? I may have some info that could be of help to you.

I truely wish you well.

I also truly wish you well.

I hope you understand that I, like you, am astonished and angered by how backward and tainted the medical profession is in many respects. It has become nothing more than a perceived basket of riches for those that seek material wealth and societal prestige. However, patients have a lot more power than they realize. Once they make the psychological leap from seeing themselves as helpless victims to being motivated revolutionaries, anything becomes possible.

You see, doctors are nothing more than ordinary people who think they are extraordinary. This feeling is nothing more than a fallacy that makes them believe in the greatest illusion of all, that of powerful and control. It also makes them very weak when placed under the microscope, for then it becomes obvious that they are not gods, but subservient puppets. Alas, beneath it all doctors are susceptible to the same stimuli that make people in general behave as sheep in a heard. Thus like anyone else, they too can be co-opted and made to follow the heard where the sheepherder has commanded it to go...

PS: If you don't mind me asking, how advanced is your AS condition? I may have some info that could be of help to you.

 

I hope your right about everything and I am dead wrong.

I have tried many many treatments and perhaps that has jaded my outlook on treatments. I have done a couple of dermabrasions, co2 lasers, photofacial and punch graft with fair results. I only have a couple of rolling scars I would like to improve on. I will definatly keep an eye on future advancements and I think it's great you have the enthusiasm to develop it.

As far as my AS? I have no fusion and through Enbrel injections, some supplements and a vigorous yoga program I am doing pretty good. My brother is disabled from it though. any information I always welcome for me to review.

It seems that Regenexx, based in Broomfield, CO, is already treating patients using MSC.

Watch this video:

http://www.regenexx.com/about-regenexx/regenexx-videos/

Unfortunately, they solely treat muscle-skeletal diseases. Perhaps they would consider expanding their focus to scar repair.

Dont want to put a damper on this for people but I work harvesting stem cells for patients with bone marrow transplant rejection. I also know a doctor in chicago who does stem cell transplants, I will not give his name out because the answer to your question to him is NO.

My point is the use of stem cells for patients is in it's infancy. Its a very controlled treatment with strict protocols and guidelines and is being used only in a very limited manner. It has a great future particularily wth the change we have at the presidency. To be used to acne scars? Mabe once they delvelop the ability to use it for burn patients then they MAY be able to help those with acne scars. Your best bet is to keep track of it's use with burn patients.

Focus your concentration on treatments that can help you. dont be like the dog chasing the tail. This Bulgarian "doctor" sounds like he means well but is clueless.

Hello, thunderbay

There are two things I would like to address:

1) Your point re: the use of SCT not likely to see its widely available application soon for acne scars (in North America) --- is well taken. And what it does, for me, is another reminder that:

This is essentially NOT an issue with the doctors. Most (not all) doctors follow money. Given the high price tag of SCT for acne scars in other countries, I am positive most cosmetic surgeons here would be more than interested, for the sake of money and fame, if only they knew their "legal ass" can be covered.

Rather, the heart of the issues rests with the conservative, cumbersome/ineffective, pharmaceutical industry-driven and corrupted governmental agency's approval and regulatory politics in North America....

I believe, after being fully informed of all its risks and unknowns, a patient should have the right of decision to use his/her own stem cells and blood in any treatment of his/her own condition. And yes, I believe the best available medical technology/resources SHOULD be provided to help the patient FOR FREE in his/her choice of treatment!! And I believe this is so regardless to who the patient is and what condition or illness.

I understand this is a matter of political opinion and you may not agree with me. But I have a sincere question that I hope you would carefully consider and give us your opinion (especially since you work in biotech field harvesting stem cells) :

Despite your view already expressed in your post above, if you must point out one thing that would facilitate and speed up the process of making SCT available here in North America for acne scars, what could it possibly be?

2) If I may be blunt, I think you are not only being disrespectful but seriously failing to understand the value of this thread to many, by calling BRD "clueless" -- most people here feel quite the opposite.

Not all countries/people are willing victims of overly powerful and corrupted FDA and Health Canada alike. BRD is a well-informed and progressive-minded dermatologist/fellow scar sufferer, devoting much of his professional knowledge, time and energy to help people here get informed of cutting-edge treatment options available -- options undreamed of only a few years ago, have now benefited thousands worldwide, yet denied to the people of this country (USA, Canada etc).

If you had pursued a career in dermatology because of your determination to help yourself and others rid of scars AND you had valuable, scientifically-documented info on progressive treatment options medically shown to be safe & extremely effective AND you knew that this info may change the lives of many desperate people here on this board....

What would you do?

 

You have a very pie in the sky look at life IMO. First of all President Bush because of his religious ideology has held up the development of stem cell therapy.

Secondly, if you actually had a clue to what happens during the process you would understand that it will be used for the most serious of medical conditions.

Why does anything of value in life have to be offered "free". Do you expect taxpayer's to pay for your cosmetic procedures?

I too have acne scars but would never expect this.

What would speed up the process you ask? Nothing. I will reveal something for you to give you a better idea. I have a serious arthritic condition called Ankylosing Spondylitis, I have been in touch with an immunologist in Illinois regarding receiving a stem cell transplant to "cure it". They have yet to develop a protocol for it although the doctor told me "we should". My point is in the bigger picture (which all of you "desperate sufferers" are failing to realize the medical profession does not feel any urgency in speeding up the process for you . You probably will not see it in your life time. Sorry probably not the answer you want.

 

No, not the answer I want, but one I expected from you. And there is no need to apologize for expressing your truth. Thanks for the reminder, I am well aware that the medical community in general does not feel any urgency or compassion to help acne scar sufferers.

And THAT IS WHY we are here to help ourselves.

NO. I don't expect the taxpayer to pay for my cosmetic procedure in the world we live today, as I expect very little from the state of society/authority in its present condition.

But YES I do BElIEVE that I (and any human being) should be fully supported (by governments and humanity) in our efforts to resolve our suffering from any illness and condition (acne scars included). Just as I, as a taxpayer and a human being, BELIEVE you should be best supported in your efforts to cure the Ankylosing Spondylitis you suffer from....

And that is true for ANYONE suffering from any DIS-EASE (physical or otherwise).

Just as I BELIEVE that any child should be provided with a healthy life, best and free medical care and education; any abused/battered women should be given full support, financial and otherwise, to protect herself and her children; all living in poverty/pain should be given the resources necessary to help them get out of poverty/pain; anyone struggling just to survive should be given what's need for one to truly thrive in life...

I BELIEVE, YES, ALL should be compassionately supported, with the best resources available by our governments and the entire humanity, to be free from suffering. This is not exactly "free" as you call it in terms of a price tag. For I believe, in a truly humanitarian society based on the above ideas, it's only natural for all to be giving support to others in pain, and all, in return, deserve the support by others.

Now, what I don't believe are: governments using obscene amount of taxpayers' money to develops weapons that kill, invest in/profit from wars, or feed their own need of power or control AND giving giant corporations huge tax breaks, AND allowing them to violate human rights to exploit cheap labors in the third world counties for profit.....etc.

You get the picture.

There are more than enough resources and money (not to mention lives) lost, stolen and abused in the above named legal crimes -- to help many human beings worldwide to access the technologies/resources available that would best alleviate their suffering.

Yes, what I BELIEVE is radically different from what I can expect from the current societal conditions all around. But that doesn't change my beliefs the least bit, and I live to to focus my energy in bringing them a little closer into reality.

And I think that's the point you are completely missing from this whole thread.

I really hope you WILL receive your stem cell transplant very soon and cure your Ankylosing Spondylitis with great success. Please keep us posted.

It seems that Regenexx, based in Broomfield, CO, is already treating patients using MSC.

Watch this video:

http://www.regenexx.com/about-regenexx/regenexx-videos/

Unfortunately, they solely treat muscle-skeletal diseases. Perhaps they would consider expanding their focus to scar repair.

Hello FT,

I think identifying doctors in North America who are already working with AMSC, even if not currently in the area of scar revision, can be very helpful. Because they can be the fist ones for us to approach to get some recommendations (potential names/contact) of their contemporaries and colleagues in the SCT field, who may have interests and the specialized background in using AMSC for scars.

BTW, I have contacted Cytori Therapeutics (manufacturer of Cellution technology) for a list of doctors/clinics worldwide to whom they had sold the technology. I will post result once they get back to me.

Unfortunately, the FDA approval of Cellution for clinical use still has a way to go, but Cytori representative says it is in process.

-I suggest you don't inject yourself because there are some risks involved. Are there no doctors where you live that do PRP? Either way, use 30 gauge needles to inject. These are very fine and will not cause any permament damage to your skin.

Hello, BRD

Thanks for your reply.

Unfortunately, so far the only countries I know where PRP injection is available are South Africa, England, France, Japan and maybe Bulgaria (or wherever you are.... 😉 ) I have not been able to find PRP injection offered locally (I am in Vancouver, Canada), or local doctors willing to do Autologous blood injection for me 🙁 I have had to postponed my originally schedule needling session tomorrow, in hope to find availability of PRP injection near me, so I can do them on the same day for them to work in synergy.

If anyone here know of any doctor offering PRP injection in North America (or any other places not mentioned here), please post info here -- greatly appreciated!

From my research, it seems there are various devices and methods that can be used to generate PRP for injection. Not all of them produce equally high-quality PRP with a history of predictable efficacy and measured outcomes. So this is a point of consideration for all considering PRP injection treatment.

BRD, if you have any evaluation criteria or tips to offer on what methods of PRP generation are safe, reliable and yield the appropriate level/quality of platelets and platelet derived growth factors, please share them with us. So those considering PRP injection can use them as a search criteria to make sure we will be getting high-quality treatments.

Also, I assume since PRP generation is best done on site, immediately after extraction of blood and re-injected to the patient, then, courier the extracted blood/generated PRP to far-away destination, in special tubes/device designed for bio-preservation, would not be feasible AND not likely allowed across international borders?

I know this is a far-shot idea, but I am just pushing the limits to brain storm possibilities, so I had to ask.

BTW, BRD, I have been trying to send you a PM in reply to one of your earlier post. But your inbox has been consistently full... that I almost feel guilty in trying to add more to it. But I really would like to see you in again soon, so despite my guilt, I will patiently wait until the time when I can manage to squeeze it into your inbox.

BRD,

I have mild systemic inflammatory diseases (hypothyroidism, seborrheic dermatitis, chrohn's, and psoriasis) which explains why I healed so poorly from surgery. Can MSC's and ECM materials work as good for me towards achieving scar-free healing as with anyone else or am I in a hopeless situation?

Could I even use my own MSC's for the purpose of acheiving scar repair or would they be considered "impure" becucase of my autoimune conditions? Would I have to be cured of these conditions first (using MSC's) before using MSC's for my scar?

i was just thinking the same thing as i also have seborrihiec dermatitis ? BRD any thoughts ?

btw what does ECM stand for ..?