I'm not really looking at this as liver specific, but systemic. At this point what are you trying to purge from the liver? Finasteride? leftover drug metabolites?

Here's some more on this. You see how recently this is being recognized

Vitamin K and the nervous system: an overview of its actions.

Abstract

^ I can give you the short version of that that may be effective. People havent had success with antimicrobials/antifungals and/or combination of probiotics. This could be the missing link and it's real simple.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5323449/
SIBO is associated with reduced matrix Gla-protein activation as well as arterial stiffening. Both these observations are regarded as important indicators of subclinical atherosclerosis. Hence, screening for SIBO, intestinal decontamination and supplementation with vitamin K2 has the potential to be incorporated into clinical practice as additional preventive measures.

You don't necessarily need to have SIBO for this to maybe be effective.
Again if your looking at k2 mk7, there's no reason not to look at the pharmaceutical grade k2 if you have access to them to look at this properly. know your source or supplier.
Here are some examples in the states.

This is pharmapure. This is what they are currently using in clinical trials.
https://www.amazon.com/Strength-Supplement-Cardiovascular-Absorption-Arteries/dp/B01FIR33FS/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1512534411&sr=8-1&keywords=mk7%2Bevolved&th=1

This is k2vital.
https://www.amazon.com/K2Vital-All-Trans-Structure-Extracts-Bioavailability/dp/B01BQSJTMY/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1512534484&sr=8-1&keywords=health+as+it+ought+to+be+vitamin+k2+mk-7

This is http://www.menaquingold.com/
https://www.amazon.com/NutriGold-Vitamin-K2-Food-Sourced-MK-7/dp/B009A6KFDC/ref=sr_1_25_s_it?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1512534585&sr=1-25&keywords=mk7

I'll have a few more things on all of thisand then I'll probably be about done.

guitarman - wouldnt we all test for low Vik K via blood work?

I started a new brand of K yesterday, I assume with your strong belief in Vit K youre on it for life yeah?

If not, at what point will you know to come off it, what will be the sign??

17 hours ago, Gladiatoro said:

How Accutane, A Cancer And Acne Drug, Threatened My Life
Why Would The Same Drug Treat Cancer And Acne
Accutane almost destroyed my health. Heres how I found my vitality again.

November 2008, before Accutane
In 2008, after 10 years of working out at the gym, I was finally happy with my strength, fitness, and the way my body looked. However, there was still one thing I wanted to improve my skin.
My acne was very mild; just a few spots around my nose, back, and chest. But as anyone who has suffered with acne knows, you see it far more than other people do.
At 18, I saw a doctor where I live on the island of Guernsey about this issue. He prescribed drugs like Oxytetracycline, Erythromycin, and Lymecycline, all of which were referred to as mild antibiotics. During this decade, I also had problems with recurring tonsillitis, chest infections, and a generally weak immune system; the antibiotics no doubt contributed to this. You will learn why later in the story.
The Last Resort
In January of 2009, at 29, I went back to see my doctor about the problem and he said, Well, weve tried everything else, I think its time to try Accutane. This was a drug Id heard about from a friend, when he was at medical college, about seven years prior. My friend told me how strong the drug was, and how girls must take contraceptives while they use it, as any child they conceived while on Accutane, would be born with horrendous deformities.
This known side effect was one of many that appeared on a list given to me by my doctor, which had a space at the bottom for my signature, agreeing that I knew the risks involved. Unfortunately, my doctor adopted a very laid-back approach and told me he didnt think I had any reason to be concerned. He also advised against me doing my own research on the drug before I took it. So I trusted his judgement and signed.
I took 80 mg a day, for four months, while I endured most of the side effects I was told about. Dry skin, peeling lips, fatigue, back pain, stiff joints, constipation, and a bit of depression. What I didnt expect though, was for these symptoms to continue after I quit taking the drug, progressively worsening as time went by. My skin was clear for a couple of months, but all the side effects remained.
After the four month course, I felt like a weak old man, retiring to bed at 8 p.m. every night, dead on my feet. Eventually, I got more energy, only to have the symptoms worsen soon after, by which time I was certain the drug had left me permanently damaged. I was no longer able to exercise as my muscles were too weak and my energy levels were at an all-time low.
By this point, my acne had returned, so I went back to my doctor who put me on another course of Lymecycine, which I stayed on for a very long time. I believe the decision to put me back on this antibiotic long-term may have fanned the flames of damage already done by Accutane.
Long-Term Side Effects My Doctor Denied
In January 2010, for around six months, I battled fatigue and a newly developed anxiety problem. I returned to the doctor, told him I wasnt feeling well at all, and that I thought the Accutane had permanently damaged me.
Theres no chance you could still have side effects; youre not on the drug anymore, was his response a sentiment that was contrary to what hed told me prior.
Before I agreed to take the medicine, he told me, This drug works by poisoning the body, so that your skin produces less oil. That seems like a fairly long-term side effect to me.
And then my doctor tried to turn the tables on me, Have you considered that it might just be life making you tired? One of many patronizing comments I still remember. He then conceded to a blood test although stating he didnt think hed find anything.
Two weeks later I received a call from my doctors office. Tom, can you come in to see the doctor, something wasnt right with your blood test.
I walked into his office, sat down, and was told that my vitamin D levels were dangerously low. I supposedly had not been getting enough sunlight so he prescribed some vitamin D supplements.
This didnt add up for me. As a fire and security systems engineer, I was spending a lot of my working hours outdoors, and I certainly didnt shy away from the sun. Still, I took the vitamin D supplements and hoped for a cure. Any positive effects I felt were pure placebo, and didnt take long to wear off.
About a month later, I traveled to Fuerteventura in the Canary Islands, for a week. This was when I began noticing real problems. Its strange how you only seem to notice bowel habit changes when youre away somewhere. While on this holiday I had no bowel movements at all. I was totally constipated and nothing I did seemed to help. I was eating a ton of dried fruit and cereal at hotel breakfast times, but nothing was shifting. I also noticed a huge decline in my sex drive around this time. Its hard to map things out on a timeline; I wish I had kept a diary, but this was about the time I changed from a glass half full to a glass half empty, kind of guy.
My personality gradually began to change too. I left a job as an aircraft technician, and was dealing with anxiety on a daily basis. At first, I chalked it up to being nervous about learning new skills, but it never went away. Anxiety is a difficult thing to understand if youve never experienced it. The best way to describe it would be to picture feeling like youre going to fall from a high place that feeling you get for a split second, before you grab onto something. Its like that, only it goes on with no end in sight.
I was finding life very difficult, dealing with a long list of symptoms: anxiety, depression, insomnia, fatigue, joint pain, mood swings, constipation, bloating, abdominal cramps, intense lower back pain, a tingling sensation in my head, eye twitches, brain fog, and a general overall feeling like I was falling apart.
I dont know how many times I visited my doctors office, yet none of my visits left me with any answers. Conventional medical professionals seem to be devoid of any kind of basic intuition when it comes to health; every doctor I saw refused to acknowledge the fact that all of my problems started after taking Accutane. Im not sure if they were aware of the drugs history and that its actually a chemotherapy drug, also formulated for the treatment of brain cancer.
From Severe Acne To Cancer
Accutane is the trade name for Isotretinoin, a vitamin A derivative. It was first marketed as Accutane by Hoffmann-La Roche. It sold well for many years, but in 2009, Roche decided to remove Accutane from the U.S. market after juries had awarded millions of dollars in damages to former Accutane users over inflammatory bowel disease side-effect claims. It then became generic, and is now marketed under many brand names worldwide. Its strength warrants a place on the Chemocare website.
Around 18 months after taking Accutane, one morning I was taking a shower, and felt a lump. This lump was in a fairly awkward spot, and appeared on a day when I was already due to see my doctor about my anxiety, fatigue, and insomnia. So, I walked into his office, told him about my four problems, and was told something Ill never forget; Tom, youre not supposed to save things up. You should have booked a double appointment. He then proceeded to patronize me by asking the usual mental health health questions and told me he thought I was suffering with depression, which was no surprise.
He wasnt going to look at my fourth issue, but then he changed his mind at the last minute. I jumped up onto the examination table whereupon he concluded that I had developed an abscess. He then proceeded to prescribe some strong antibiotics. If that didnt do the trick, Id have to have it cut out. This abscess was, lets just say, at the end of my digestive system.
My first and only thought was, How the f*ck did that happen?
At this point, I was tearing my hair out trying to find answers. Why was my body falling apart and why did no one have any answers for me? My relationships with friends and family were starting to be effected. The romantic relationship I was in at this time ended as a result of all my health symptoms and stress, which only made me feel worse. Its hard to convince people youre unwell when doctors cant give you a diagnosis and constantly dance around the facts staring them in the face. When I looked in the mirror I didnt recognize the person looking back at me. Why couldnt they see what was happening?

These photos give an example of my decline. Left, the way I looked immediately after the Accutane, and right, approximately two and a half years later
At My Worst
In December of 2012, my health took yet another serious nose dive. One morning I woke up feeling groggy, my head was spinning, and I was dealing with symptoms that are very hard to describe. Simply put, I didnt feel good at all. This continued for days so I went to see a doctor again. This time I chose to see a different doctor who sent me for another blood test.
Turned out my Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) was sky high and out of balance. Upon hearing this, I actually felt good. Finally, I had a reason for why Id been feeling so terrible. The doctor sent me away for a month, told me theyd test me again in four weeks time, and if the result was the same I would have to go on thyroid medication for the rest of my life.
Now, lets think about that for a second, take a look at the photo of my body in 2008 I was fit, and strong. I ate what I thought was a healthy diet and I was pretty happy with my life. How could I have deteriorated so much in three years time to the point where I was dealing with health problems that are normally faced by people much later in life or not at all?
I returned for the follow-up blood test, which came back normal! The doctor was unable to give me a reason for this which was incredibly frustrating, because by this point, I needed answers. This was my defining moment when I realized that I had been going wrong my whole life. I had handed ownership of my health over to a third party. My health was my responsibility! So I did the unthinkable. I turned to Dr Google.
My Quest For Knowledge
The first search I tried was, foods that attack the thyroid, and the resounding answer was gluten. I removed it from my diet and within three days it was like someone had turned the lights back on. This was only the start.
I demanded to be referred to a gastroenterologist, who completely disregarded my claims about Accutane, carried out a colonoscopy and endoscopy, took a biopsy, and found nothing. He offered me no follow ups, and diagnosed me with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) and Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS), leaving me to find my own way in the dark again, as both of these conditions are extremely vague.
I booked an appointment with a nutritionist who arranged for a stool test to see what condition my gut flora was in. This was the turning point. The nutritionists test showed that my levels of beneficial bacteria were good, but I wasnt digesting fats well and I was carrying two parasites. I did some research on the parasites, and opted to treat them conventionally.
Doctors where I live were reluctant to take these parasites seriously, so I sought the help of a UK doctor, who prescribed a powerful cocktail of three antibiotics. I was so blinkered at this point, still thinking that conventional medicines were the answer. So, I took the drugs for two weeks and the results were disastrous; I was passing blood and my fatigue was off the scale.
I changed my local doctor again to a doctor who had a special interest in CFS. She took a guess that my microbiome had been damaged and that I needed to take probiotics to restore it.
Microbiome is the collective term given to the dense population of microbes that live in the gut. This microbial colony is essential to our existence. When they are harmed, every aspect of our health is harmed. Every time you take an antibiotic, a number of these microbes will die and some strains will never return. The general rule appears to be that the more diverse your gut flora is, the healthier you will be.
So, there I was, completely screwed. The third girlfriend Id had during my illness told me that living with me was like, living with a sick old uncle. Then she left me to fight my battle alone, which was probably best for both of us.
At this point, I vowed to face my problem head on and study everything. I began my working life as an aircraft technician, then moved on to working with security systems. I knew a lot about fixing things but Id never had to fix my body before. I began learning all about Accutane, gut health, nutrition, and listening to other peoples experiences of healing from long-term illness. My progress was slow and emotionally challenging.
My doctors advice was, When youre not at work, do as little as possible. This was very hard for me, but I tried to use that time wisely to figure everything out. The more I studied, the more I realized how many lies have been propagated by mainstream entities. I became aware of just how powerful dietary tweaks could be when treating chronic illness.
Although I was becming more and more enlightened, I was still sick, and very isolated. Socially, Id become that guy everyone avoids. When peoples standard, How are you?, is consistently answered with, Not well actually, they start to shun that person. Its just human nature; we are programmed to avoid sickness and prevent the spread of disease.
The Road To Recovery
I discovered fairly early on that the diet I did best on was the paleo diet; a way of eating that excludes all foods that entered the human diet during the agricultural revolution.
After around six months, I decided to head to a clinic in the UK that offered Fecal Microbiota Transplants, which is exactly what it sounds like. They specialized in taking bacteria from a healthy donors digestive system, and implanting it into the gut of a person with a digestive disorder, where an imbalanced gut flora plays a key role. I would end up returning twice, eventually doing 30 transplants! Unfortunately, they werent the magic bullet I expected them to be. My fatigue saw noticeable improvements, and my IBS did improve, for a while, then became worse again.
Liver Damage
I realized fairly recently that the root cause of my problems was impaired liver function, due to damage caused by the Accutane. That got the ball rolling and everything else followed as a result. It left me with very low bile production, resulting in chronic constipation and toxicity. The lack of bile also meant I wasnt able to digest fats properly, hence the vitamin D deficiency, as it is a fat soluble vitamin. How my doctor missed this I will never know; maybe he knew what had happened but decided not to acknowledge it, which is a real shame. If he had only grown a spine and taken it on the chin that Accutane was the cause of my problems, maybe all the years of pain could have been avoided. I am now working on improving the health of both my liver and gut.
My gut is most certainly leaky as a result of the torture it has endured. I am sensitive to so many foods these days, it makes eating a real challenge. I have to follow the autoimmune paleo protocol, avoiding all cereal grains, nuts, seeds, sugars, nightshades, etc. I have to follow low FODMAP due to my imbalanced gut flora, and I also have trouble digesting some fats too,mostly due to the continued lack of bile. When I eat grains or nightshades I experience skin flare ups, bloating, constipation, fatigue, joint pain, dizziness, depression, anxiety, and irritability. Along with my strict diet, I also take a large amount of supplements, most important being probiotics, digestive enzymes, collagen, and omega 3.
Naturally Introduce Your Body To Gut, Molecular, And Brain Homeostasis. Learn Why You Need To Signal Your Vagus Nerve And How It Can Revolutionize Your Health

Ditching Accutane And Embracing Natural Medicine
After eight years of ill health, I can now say that I am enjoying my life again certainly not as fully as I was prior to taking Accutane, but as long as I stay on course with my strict diet, I generally feel happy and balanced.
Thousands of people are finding themselves in a similar position to me after taking Accutane, but doctors still refuse to acknowledge that these issues are caused by the drug. Despite the numbers of suicides tied to it and successful court cases where its use has been found to have caused ulcerative colitis or Crohns disease. Doctors and dermatologists are continually pushing the totally incorrect mindset that diet plays no role in skin health, something that I found to be completely false. My diet changes were the only thing that actually cleared my skin. I am now spot free and its certainly NOT thanks to Accutane.
Most people who take it think that they have exhausted every natural treatment option for acne, when in reality, most have barely even scratched the surface. The causes of acne are bacterial and hormonal, and Accutane does not address the root causes; it merely aims to prevent your body from doing something it was designed to do.
Although my experience has been profoundly negative and extremely difficult to endure, I am grateful for some of it because I have absorbed so much information. Information that I now hope to use to help other people recover after suffering the long term consequences of this drug or any other chronic health problem; so many of which are caused by poor diet and gut health. I have now spent approximately three and a half years studying and have just qualified as a Primal Blueprint Certified Health Coach. I am excited to use this knowledge to empower others to make positive health changes in their life. Another CHEMOTHERAPY VICTIM .

I feel like that you. Donot know what to do.

20 hours ago, TrueJustice said:

guitarman - wouldnt we all test for low Vik K via blood work?

I mentioned this on the previous page. There is no current approved testing for vitamin k2 status, (bone and vascular) only k1.
Basically you get enough vitamin k1 in the diet to support blood coagulation. This is whats prioritized. Even then maybe sometimes not enough, some have noticed easy bruising. Some of these other k2 dependant factors (vascular and bone) rely on conversion from k1 to k2 are dependant on a enzyme for conversion. Also your own bacterial flora contribute to k2 status. So there are two areas this can go wrong basically. Awhile back I posted all the changed genes altered by Accutane (and there was a ton of them) and the enzyme that converts k1 to k2 was altered.
(not that this in itself is significant at this point, because Accutane most likely temporarily affected most of these genes.)
Some, maybe not.

Thank you!!

Youve raised some very interesting ideas with Vit K - backed with some great detail so well done!!

Ill continue to take it and see how I go, someone else mentioned backing up other pathways for it to be effective.
So with this in mind I thought Id stay on Vit D and Im also keen on Thiamine and what that might do.

Im at a point where I can live with the depression minus taking that sort of medication, what I would like improvement on is the fatigue and muscle weakness.....that stuff just debilitates me and takes you out of the game so to speak, esp with socialising!!

Does anybody else have a coated tongue that keeps coming back even after scraping it? I don't mean like a thin "healthy" coating, I mean like a disgusting fucking coating.

I have taken Nystatin, Diflucan, and Clotrimazole thinking it's fungus, it didn't respond to any of it. My oral hygiene is better than most I'm sure but I can't seem to fix this tongue. I can scrape it off, but not fully, and it ALWAYS comes back (it's been years now).

Did Accutane compromise my immune system? Is this my liver telling me it's fucked up?

18 hours ago, Neezar said:

On 2017-12-05 at 6:20 PM, Gladiatoro said:

How Accutane, A Cancer And Acne Drug, Threatened My Life
Why Would The Same Drug Treat Cancer And Acne
Accutane almost destroyed my health. Heres how I found my vitality again.

November 2008, before Accutane
In 2008, after 10 years of working out at the gym, I was finally happy with my strength, fitness, and the way my body looked. However, there was still one thing I wanted to improve my skin.
My acne was very mild; just a few spots around my nose, back, and chest. But as anyone who has suffered with acne knows, you see it far more than other people do.
At 18, I saw a doctor where I live on the island of Guernsey about this issue. He prescribed drugs like Oxytetracycline, Erythromycin, and Lymecycline, all of which were referred to as mild antibiotics. During this decade, I also had problems with recurring tonsillitis, chest infections, and a generally weak immune system; the antibiotics no doubt contributed to this. You will learn why later in the story.
The Last Resort
In January of 2009, at 29, I went back to see my doctor about the problem and he said, Well, weve tried everything else, I think its time to try Accutane. This was a drug Id heard about from a friend, when he was at medical college, about seven years prior. My friend told me how strong the drug was, and how girls must take contraceptives while they use it, as any child they conceived while on Accutane, would be born with horrendous deformities.
This known side effect was one of many that appeared on a list given to me by my doctor, which had a space at the bottom for my signature, agreeing that I knew the risks involved. Unfortunately, my doctor adopted a very laid-back approach and told me he didnt think I had any reason to be concerned. He also advised against me doing my own research on the drug before I took it. So I trusted his judgement and signed.
I took 80 mg a day, for four months, while I endured most of the side effects I was told about. Dry skin, peeling lips, fatigue, back pain, stiff joints, constipation, and a bit of depression. What I didnt expect though, was for these symptoms to continue after I quit taking the drug, progressively worsening as time went by. My skin was clear for a couple of months, but all the side effects remained.
After the four month course, I felt like a weak old man, retiring to bed at 8 p.m. every night, dead on my feet. Eventually, I got more energy, only to have the symptoms worsen soon after, by which time I was certain the drug had left me permanently damaged. I was no longer able to exercise as my muscles were too weak and my energy levels were at an all-time low.
By this point, my acne had returned, so I went back to my doctor who put me on another course of Lymecycine, which I stayed on for a very long time. I believe the decision to put me back on this antibiotic long-term may have fanned the flames of damage already done by Accutane.
Long-Term Side Effects My Doctor Denied
In January 2010, for around six months, I battled fatigue and a newly developed anxiety problem. I returned to the doctor, told him I wasnt feeling well at all, and that I thought the Accutane had permanently damaged me.
Theres no chance you could still have side effects; youre not on the drug anymore, was his response a sentiment that was contrary to what hed told me prior.
Before I agreed to take the medicine, he told me, This drug works by poisoning the body, so that your skin produces less oil. That seems like a fairly long-term side effect to me.
And then my doctor tried to turn the tables on me, Have you considered that it might just be life making you tired? One of many patronizing comments I still remember. He then conceded to a blood test although stating he didnt think hed find anything.
Two weeks later I received a call from my doctors office. Tom, can you come in to see the doctor, something wasnt right with your blood test.
I walked into his office, sat down, and was told that my vitamin D levels were dangerously low. I supposedly had not been getting enough sunlight so he prescribed some vitamin D supplements.
This didnt add up for me. As a fire and security systems engineer, I was spending a lot of my working hours outdoors, and I certainly didnt shy away from the sun. Still, I took the vitamin D supplements and hoped for a cure. Any positive effects I felt were pure placebo, and didnt take long to wear off.
About a month later, I traveled to Fuerteventura in the Canary Islands, for a week. This was when I began noticing real problems. Its strange how you only seem to notice bowel habit changes when youre away somewhere. While on this holiday I had no bowel movements at all. I was totally constipated and nothing I did seemed to help. I was eating a ton of dried fruit and cereal at hotel breakfast times, but nothing was shifting. I also noticed a huge decline in my sex drive around this time. Its hard to map things out on a timeline; I wish I had kept a diary, but this was about the time I changed from a glass half full to a glass half empty, kind of guy.
My personality gradually began to change too. I left a job as an aircraft technician, and was dealing with anxiety on a daily basis. At first, I chalked it up to being nervous about learning new skills, but it never went away. Anxiety is a difficult thing to understand if youve never experienced it. The best way to describe it would be to picture feeling like youre going to fall from a high place that feeling you get for a split second, before you grab onto something. Its like that, only it goes on with no end in sight.
I was finding life very difficult, dealing with a long list of symptoms: anxiety, depression, insomnia, fatigue, joint pain, mood swings, constipation, bloating, abdominal cramps, intense lower back pain, a tingling sensation in my head, eye twitches, brain fog, and a general overall feeling like I was falling apart.
I dont know how many times I visited my doctors office, yet none of my visits left me with any answers. Conventional medical professionals seem to be devoid of any kind of basic intuition when it comes to health; every doctor I saw refused to acknowledge the fact that all of my problems started after taking Accutane. Im not sure if they were aware of the drugs history and that its actually a chemotherapy drug, also formulated for the treatment of brain cancer.
From Severe Acne To Cancer
Accutane is the trade name for Isotretinoin, a vitamin A derivative. It was first marketed as Accutane by Hoffmann-La Roche. It sold well for many years, but in 2009, Roche decided to remove Accutane from the U.S. market after juries had awarded millions of dollars in damages to former Accutane users over inflammatory bowel disease side-effect claims. It then became generic, and is now marketed under many brand names worldwide. Its strength warrants a place on the Chemocare website.
Around 18 months after taking Accutane, one morning I was taking a shower, and felt a lump. This lump was in a fairly awkward spot, and appeared on a day when I was already due to see my doctor about my anxiety, fatigue, and insomnia. So, I walked into his office, told him about my four problems, and was told something Ill never forget; Tom, youre not supposed to save things up. You should have booked a double appointment. He then proceeded to patronize me by asking the usual mental health health questions and told me he thought I was suffering with depression, which was no surprise.
He wasnt going to look at my fourth issue, but then he changed his mind at the last minute. I jumped up onto the examination table whereupon he concluded that I had developed an abscess. He then proceeded to prescribe some strong antibiotics. If that didnt do the trick, Id have to have it cut out. This abscess was, lets just say, at the end of my digestive system.
My first and only thought was, How the f*ck did that happen?
At this point, I was tearing my hair out trying to find answers. Why was my body falling apart and why did no one have any answers for me? My relationships with friends and family were starting to be effected. The romantic relationship I was in at this time ended as a result of all my health symptoms and stress, which only made me feel worse. Its hard to convince people youre unwell when doctors cant give you a diagnosis and constantly dance around the facts staring them in the face. When I looked in the mirror I didnt recognize the person looking back at me. Why couldnt they see what was happening?

These photos give an example of my decline. Left, the way I looked immediately after the Accutane, and right, approximately two and a half years later
At My Worst
In December of 2012, my health took yet another serious nose dive. One morning I woke up feeling groggy, my head was spinning, and I was dealing with symptoms that are very hard to describe. Simply put, I didnt feel good at all. This continued for days so I went to see a doctor again. This time I chose to see a different doctor who sent me for another blood test.
Turned out my Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) was sky high and out of balance. Upon hearing this, I actually felt good. Finally, I had a reason for why Id been feeling so terrible. The doctor sent me away for a month, told me theyd test me again in four weeks time, and if the result was the same I would have to go on thyroid medication for the rest of my life.
Now, lets think about that for a second, take a look at the photo of my body in 2008 I was fit, and strong. I ate what I thought was a healthy diet and I was pretty happy with my life. How could I have deteriorated so much in three years time to the point where I was dealing with health problems that are normally faced by people much later in life or not at all?
I returned for the follow-up blood test, which came back normal! The doctor was unable to give me a reason for this which was incredibly frustrating, because by this point, I needed answers. This was my defining moment when I realized that I had been going wrong my whole life. I had handed ownership of my health over to a third party. My health was my responsibility! So I did the unthinkable. I turned to Dr Google.
My Quest For Knowledge
The first search I tried was, foods that attack the thyroid, and the resounding answer was gluten. I removed it from my diet and within three days it was like someone had turned the lights back on. This was only the start.
I demanded to be referred to a gastroenterologist, who completely disregarded my claims about Accutane, carried out a colonoscopy and endoscopy, took a biopsy, and found nothing. He offered me no follow ups, and diagnosed me with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) and Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS), leaving me to find my own way in the dark again, as both of these conditions are extremely vague.
I booked an appointment with a nutritionist who arranged for a stool test to see what condition my gut flora was in. This was the turning point. The nutritionists test showed that my levels of beneficial bacteria were good, but I wasnt digesting fats well and I was carrying two parasites. I did some research on the parasites, and opted to treat them conventionally.
Doctors where I live were reluctant to take these parasites seriously, so I sought the help of a UK doctor, who prescribed a powerful cocktail of three antibiotics. I was so blinkered at this point, still thinking that conventional medicines were the answer. So, I took the drugs for two weeks and the results were disastrous; I was passing blood and my fatigue was off the scale.
I changed my local doctor again to a doctor who had a special interest in CFS. She took a guess that my microbiome had been damaged and that I needed to take probiotics to restore it.
Microbiome is the collective term given to the dense population of microbes that live in the gut. This microbial colony is essential to our existence. When they are harmed, every aspect of our health is harmed. Every time you take an antibiotic, a number of these microbes will die and some strains will never return. The general rule appears to be that the more diverse your gut flora is, the healthier you will be.
So, there I was, completely screwed. The third girlfriend Id had during my illness told me that living with me was like, living with a sick old uncle. Then she left me to fight my battle alone, which was probably best for both of us.
At this point, I vowed to face my problem head on and study everything. I began my working life as an aircraft technician, then moved on to working with security systems. I knew a lot about fixing things but Id never had to fix my body before. I began learning all about Accutane, gut health, nutrition, and listening to other peoples experiences of healing from long-term illness. My progress was slow and emotionally challenging.
My doctors advice was, When youre not at work, do as little as possible. This was very hard for me, but I tried to use that time wisely to figure everything out. The more I studied, the more I realized how many lies have been propagated by mainstream entities. I became aware of just how powerful dietary tweaks could be when treating chronic illness.
Although I was becming more and more enlightened, I was still sick, and very isolated. Socially, Id become that guy everyone avoids. When peoples standard, How are you?, is consistently answered with, Not well actually, they start to shun that person. Its just human nature; we are programmed to avoid sickness and prevent the spread of disease.
The Road To Recovery
I discovered fairly early on that the diet I did best on was the paleo diet; a way of eating that excludes all foods that entered the human diet during the agricultural revolution.
After around six months, I decided to head to a clinic in the UK that offered Fecal Microbiota Transplants, which is exactly what it sounds like. They specialized in taking bacteria from a healthy donors digestive system, and implanting it into the gut of a person with a digestive disorder, where an imbalanced gut flora plays a key role. I would end up returning twice, eventually doing 30 transplants! Unfortunately, they werent the magic bullet I expected them to be. My fatigue saw noticeable improvements, and my IBS did improve, for a while, then became worse again.
Liver Damage
I realized fairly recently that the root cause of my problems was impaired liver function, due to damage caused by the Accutane. That got the ball rolling and everything else followed as a result. It left me with very low bile production, resulting in chronic constipation and toxicity. The lack of bile also meant I wasnt able to digest fats properly, hence the vitamin D deficiency, as it is a fat soluble vitamin. How my doctor missed this I will never know; maybe he knew what had happened but decided not to acknowledge it, which is a real shame. If he had only grown a spine and taken it on the chin that Accutane was the cause of my problems, maybe all the years of pain could have been avoided. I am now working on improving the health of both my liver and gut.
My gut is most certainly leaky as a result of the torture it has endured. I am sensitive to so many foods these days, it makes eating a real challenge. I have to follow the autoimmune paleo protocol, avoiding all cereal grains, nuts, seeds, sugars, nightshades, etc. I have to follow low FODMAP due to my imbalanced gut flora, and I also have trouble digesting some fats too,mostly due to the continued lack of bile. When I eat grains or nightshades I experience skin flare ups, bloating, constipation, fatigue, joint pain, dizziness, depression, anxiety, and irritability. Along with my strict diet, I also take a large amount of supplements, most important being probiotics, digestive enzymes, collagen, and omega 3.
Naturally Introduce Your Body To Gut, Molecular, And Brain Homeostasis. Learn Why You Need To Signal Your Vagus Nerve And How It Can Revolutionize Your Health

Ditching Accutane And Embracing Natural Medicine
After eight years of ill health, I can now say that I am enjoying my life again certainly not as fully as I was prior to taking Accutane, but as long as I stay on course with my strict diet, I generally feel happy and balanced.
Thousands of people are finding themselves in a similar position to me after taking Accutane, but doctors still refuse to acknowledge that these issues are caused by the drug. Despite the numbers of suicides tied to it and successful court cases where its use has been found to have caused ulcerative colitis or Crohns disease. Doctors and dermatologists are continually pushing the totally incorrect mindset that diet plays no role in skin health, something that I found to be completely false. My diet changes were the only thing that actually cleared my skin. I am now spot free and its certainly NOT thanks to Accutane.
Most people who take it think that they have exhausted every natural treatment option for acne, when in reality, most have barely even scratched the surface. The causes of acne are bacterial and hormonal, and Accutane does not address the root causes; it merely aims to prevent your body from doing something it was designed to do.
Although my experience has been profoundly negative and extremely difficult to endure, I am grateful for some of it because I have absorbed so much information. Information that I now hope to use to help other people recover after suffering the long term consequences of this drug or any other chronic health problem; so many of which are caused by poor diet and gut health. I have now spent approximately three and a half years studying and have just qualified as a Primal Blueprint Certified Health Coach. I am excited to use this knowledge to empower others to make positive health changes in their life. Another CHEMOTHERAPY VICTIM .

I feel like that you. Donot know what to do.

This persons main problem was antibiotic use it destroyed his immune system.

I just have a curiosity if you guys in this topic are all acne free besides Accutane damage?

With 24 years old, i already took 5 courses of it and STILL have acne (moderate) and the main issue this drug did to me is messed my gut so bad, my stomach is also so sensible and few months ago i had aprinciple of gastritis. Am i too fucked?

Never took the Istotretinoin from Roche, was always the generic version. The worst thing besides this damage is still have acne!

Question!

Feel free to give me any information that you can.

So Im getting a full hormonal blood panel this upcoming week (little late I know)

But my question is, if my pituitary is suppressed meaning (not producing enough LH, FSH) low testosterone, is it possible that my receptors have become hyperandrogenic in response to the low testosterone/DHT?

Because although Im not oily and I suffer from a lot of your typical low testosterone symptoms, I do suffer from ridiculous arm hair growth, leg hair growth like twice the size of what is used to be. Yes this hair pulls out easily almost Telogen effluvium style all over my body. But I was just wondering if it was possible to suffer low T symptoms but with hyperandrogenic receptors..

like maybe my body was like WTF pituitary give me more testosterone/dht so it cranked up receptor sensitivity and is taking any small amount of testosterone/dht that it can but I dont have enough testosterone/dht being produced to give me all of the hyperandrogenic symptoms but whenever some gets through it shows via my arm/leg hair. Im just curious about this because maybe if I get so-called pituitary problem under control (via TRT if my test/DHT is low) then maybe everything would reverse itself. But I would probably end up with more so hyperandrogenic symptoms then what Im suffering from now.

I.e. crazy oily skin, acne, over excessive libido and stuff like that.

Just a question I was curious about today

I truly believe Im suffering some form of andropause.. my nose hair is out of whack....

never hasbeen like that before

On 2017-12-07 at 10:54 AM, Turko said:

I just have a curiosity if you guys in this topic are all acne free besides Accutane damage?

With 24 years old, i already took 5 courses of it and STILL have acne (moderate) and the main issue this drug did to me is messed my gut so bad, my stomach is also so sensible and few months ago i had aprinciple of gastritis. Am i too fucked?

Never took the Istotretinoin from Roche, was always the generic version. The worst thing besides this damage is still have acne!

Did you take anti life biotic? 5 rounds one word WOW its amazing your still breathing &($@ me .

I fell a little better now your dose must be in 50 k grams thats shocking to me . And you still have acne crazy . My 60 % cure rate should be more like 10 % .

What kind of insane derm put you on 5 rounds , I would say that is criminal to say the least.

@ColinbokoMe personally, I wouldnt try to answer any of that before seeing your results. Please let us know though when you get the results.

Speaking of tests, I know we tend to focus on hormones, deficiencies, the thyroid,the gut, but for some of the guys that are getting older, have you had extensive cardiovascular tests?
like ekg, heart stress test, full lipid panel, glucose and looked at antiphospholipid and lupus anticoagulants?
Underlying Causes of Dysautonomia
Theres alot. some are cardiovascular related.
http://www.dysautonomiainternational.org/page.php?ID=150
I tested positive for the acetylcholine ganglionic neuronal antibody that proves some dysautonomia is going on.
So did someone else who took accutane. I know we got some newcomers on here that might not be aware of this.
I also might be positive for antiphospholipid syndrome.

APS is diagnosed when there is at least one clinical manifestation and at least one of the following antibodies: anticardiolipin IgG or IgM, beta 2 glycoprotein I IgG or IgM, or the lupus anticoagulant. Research is currently underway to determine if intravenous immunoglobulin (IVIG) may benefit those with autonomic dysfunction caused by APS.
APS Action
APS Foundation
Hughes Syndrome Foundation
Autonomic Dysfunction in Primary APS: A Frequent and Frightening Correlation?
Neurological syndromes in lupus association with APS

5 hours ago, guitarman01 said:

@ColinbokoMe personally, I wouldnt try to answer any of that before seeing your results. Please let us know though when you get the results.

Speaking of tests, I know we tend to focus on hormones, deficiencies, the thyroid,the gut, but for some of the guys that are getting older, have you had extensive cardiovascular tests?
like ekg, heart stress test, full lipid panel, glucose and looked at antiphospholipid and lupus anticoagulants?
Underlying Causes of Dysautonomia
Theres alot. some are cardiovascular related.
http://www.dysautonomiainternational.org/page.php?ID=150
I tested positive for the acetylcholine ganglionic neuronal antibody that proves some dysautonomia is going on.
So did someone else who took accutane. I know we got some newcomers on here that might not be aware of this.
I also might be positive for antiphospholipid syndrome.

APS is diagnosed when there is at least one clinical manifestation and at least one of the following antibodies: anticardiolipin IgG or IgM, beta 2 glycoprotein I IgG or IgM, or the lupus anticoagulant. Research is currently underway to determine if intravenous immunoglobulin (IVIG) may benefit those with autonomic dysfunction caused by APS.
APS Action
APS Foundation
Hughes Syndrome Foundation
Autonomic Dysfunction in Primary APS: A Frequent and Frightening Correlation?
Neurological syndromes in lupus association with APS

I haven't but even if you did come back with some negative results they'd prob only say the same thing like with high cholesterol like clean up your diet and do more exercise etc.

As for going on a medication, I'll avoid if I can. Happy to listen to other thoughts.

By the way Co Q10 is a very good supplement for heart health/maintenance

8 hours ago, Gladiatoro said:

15 hours ago, Turko said:

I just have a curiosity if you guys in this topic are all acne free besides Accutane damage?

With 24 years old, i already took 5 courses of it and STILL have acne (moderate) and the main issue this drug did to me is messed my gut so bad, my stomach is also so sensible and few months ago i had aprinciple of gastritis. Am i too fucked?

Never took the Istotretinoin from Roche, was always the generic version. The worst thing besides this damage is still have acne!

Did you take anti life biotic?

I tookdoxycycline,tetracycline also during this time from a Accutane course and another. My acne always came back, never seen something so hard to cure, my acne if not severe or cystic, but is extremely persistent.

But i'm not sure if was the antibiotics, because i was in mind doing the low dose of accutane and when i took a first capsule of 10mg i've felt so bad, never had any issue taking Accutane during these 5 courses, but when i tried this last time i had constipation anddiscomfort in the abdomen, also brain fog.

4 hours ago, Turko said:

I tookdoxycycline,tetracycline also during this time from a Accutane course and another. My acne always came back, never seen something so hard to cure, my acne if not severe or cystic, but is extremely persistent.

But i'm not sure if was the antibiotics, because i was in mind doing the low dose of accutane and when i took a first capsule of 10mg i've felt so bad, never had any issue taking Accutane during these 5 courses, but when i tried this last time i had constipation anddiscomfort in the abdomen, also brain fog.

Go to Whale.to , you might just learn something. Your damage is around 80% due to antibiotic use and 20 % isotretinoin.

@mariovitaliand everyone else that has been looking at this over the years. Maybe this might be the last study you ever need to see. This is just one of many reasons I continue to hyper focus on vitamin k processes.
This is showing that Finasteride might have strong anti vitamin k properties as part of its action.

Vitamin K epoxide reductase regulation of androgen receptor activity

Published online 2017
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5355141/

Abstract
Long-term use of warfarin has been shown to be associated with a reduced risk of prostate cancer. Warfarin belongs to the vitamin K antagonist class of anticoagulants, which inhibit vitamin K epoxide reductase (VKOR). The vitamin K cycle is primarily known for its role in -carboxylation, a rare post-translational modification important in blood coagulation. Here we show that warfarin inhibits the transcriptional activity of the androgen receptor (AR),
warfarin inhibited AR signaling.

inhibition of the androgen receptor (AR) via blockade of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) production using 5-reductase inhibitors.
Two large scale studies examined the chemopreventive potential of finasteride and dutasteride, both of which inhibit 5-reductases, the enzymes that convert testosterone to the more potent androgen DHT in prostate tissue.

we identified warfarin and other vitamin K antagonists as AR inhibitors
Vitamin K antagonists inhibit AR activity by inhibiting VKOR

Vitamin D supplementation has eliminated my back pain. It's probably the most obvious supplement to try post-accutane, but I now realize I didn't give it a fair trial period in the past when I took it.

8 minutes ago, QuietSoldier said:

Vitamin D supplementation has eliminated my back pain. It's probably the most obvious supplement to try post-accutane, but I now realize I didn't give it a fair trial period in the past when I took it.

Try and take it with Vit K

We need to see where this K thing leads

18 hours ago, guitarman01 said:

@mariovitaliand everyone else that has been looking at this over the years. Maybe this might be the last study you ever need to see. This is just one of many reasons I continue to hyper focus on vitamin k processes.
This is showing that Finasteride might have strong anti vitamin k properties as part of its action.

Vitamin K epoxide reductase regulation of androgen receptor activity

Published online 2017
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5355141/

Abstract
Long-term use of warfarin has been shown to be associated with a reduced risk of prostate cancer. Warfarin belongs to the vitamin K antagonist class of anticoagulants, which inhibit vitamin K epoxide reductase (VKOR). The vitamin K cycle is primarily known for its role in -carboxylation, a rare post-translational modification important in blood coagulation. Here we show that warfarin inhibits the transcriptional activity of the androgen receptor (AR),
warfarin inhibited AR signaling.

inhibition of the androgen receptor (AR) via blockade of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) production using 5-reductase inhibitors.
Two large scale studies examined the chemopreventive potential of finasteride and dutasteride, both of which inhibit 5-reductases, the enzymes that convert testosterone to the more potent androgen DHT in prostate tissue.

we identified warfarin and other vitamin K antagonists as AR inhibitors
Vitamin K antagonists inhibit AR activity by inhibiting VKOR

So supplementing vitamin K would reverse this? Or...?

So I've been posting $30,000 reward signs around areas with medical institutions for the Rxisk Prize. Has anybody thought of doing that as well?

Also is there any hope on dealing with frontal cortex problems, i feel like my mental filter is going away and I've become more impulsive.

Lastly, sorry for the lack of posting, I've been so busy with school which is so much harder in this state.

How much you recommendvitamin k dosage per day?

On 12/8/2017 at 9:16 PM, TrueJustice said:

Try and take it with Vit K

We need to see where this K thing leads

OK I still have some Vitamin K left over from when I bought it before. Just took my first dose.

On 5/7/2011 at 10:07 PM, IndigoRush said:

 

I think you should consult your healthcare provider and/or a derm for this. Switching your doctor might also be a good idea. I think what you (and everyone else) need are simply the right physician. Be brutally honest with them as well. Talk it all out, including your agony and anger. Regardless, I would do the following: 

1. I would take up the biotin supplement and wait for THREE months. Yes, it can take up months until you notice the result. If you're taking this, please continue.
2. Complement it with a hair growth shampoo and serums! I don't know which ones are good in your country, so you might want to talk to your derm for this (or anyone experienced for that matter). 
3. Even if you have acne-prone skin, using a facial moisturizer is still necessary. Use the non-comedogenic one consistently. You might also want to look for the one with NMF (natural moisturizing factor), including hyaluronic acid, CERAMIDE and urea. The richer they are in your moisturizer, the better. Use them in the morning, day, and night!
4. Use a gentle, moisturizing cleanser like cetaphil, neutrogena's ultra gentle cleanser, or eucerin's sensitive skin facial wash. 
5. Extra growth of hair in other parts of the body may not be a big problem for me though. I would simply trim them regularly with an electronic trimmer. They should help ease your routine
6. I can't stress this enough; Use a non-comedogenic sunscreen containing broad spectrum SPF 30 or more! Reapply them in the middle of the day. 
7. Again, results can take up months. So please be patient. Get well soon! <3

On 11/29/2017 at 7:23 PM, guitarman01 said:

Dynamic balancing of autonomic nervous system through vitamin mk-7
https://www.google.com/patents/WO2012059942A3?cl=en&dq=inassignee :"Viridis+Biopharma+Pvt+Ltd."&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiW1o3ZjeXXAhWwYd8KHWuNBpkQ6AEIKDAA

ABSTRACT

Sympathovagal balance is essential in maintaining internal homeostasis. Imbalance in this can lead to many disease conditions such as cardiovascular diseases, type 2 diabetes mellitus, high blood pressure, gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD), IBS, depression, COPD, etc. Sudden cardiac death and Myocardial infarction are result of autonomic dysfunction. Many drugs have been proposed for these conditions but lack in correcting the condition and can themselves produce side effects, such as prolongation of QT interval. Inventors of current invention observed serendipitously that vitamin MK-7 can restore the sympathovagal balance and also have cardio protective effect by shortening of QT interval and prolongation of RR interval. Further to this, it was also observed that vitamin MK-7 improves cardiac output, left ventricular work, HDL cholesterol and reduces blood sugar.

This is what im talking about. Making sure things are swinging in the right direction. Im going to show you some of my test results and you can see how well they line up with this and how borderline they are of going in the wrong direction.

DYSAUTONOMIA EVALUATION SERUM Positive
HDL Cholesterol 43 mg/dL Reference is greater than >39 This is very low(major cardiovascular risk factor) the higher the better, should be in the 60s
CARDIAC STRESS TEST
Abnormal ECG response to stress. 2 mm flat depressed ST segment in leads
III occuring in Stage 2 using Bruce protocol. The patient exercised for
11 mins. Persisting up to 3 minutes into recovery.
EKG 12-LEAD
POSSIBLE LEFT ATRIAL ENLARGEMENT

Inactive MGP is one of the strongest risk factors for cardiovascular disease and mortality presently known.
MGP is vitamin k dependant.

The fact that isotretinoin has been associated with carotid stiffening,calcification , and the metabolic syndrome shows me retinoids at a higher dosage might be antagonistic to vitamin k processes, along with 5ar inhibitors. You also might see the signs of this in many other drugs or diet choices.