11 hours ago, brendan452 said:

I don't think you should be talking any fat soluble vitamins full stop

Lol, k.

On 11/30/2017 at 4:35 AM, Togg said:

hey there, still kicking around here guys. Got a question about sleep medication.

Sorry, I didn't get to this question sooner. Sleep is one of my biggest issues. I sort of just deal with the day night reversal and insomnia and work around it. But at times its beyond frustrating, as you know. Word on the block is Xyrem is the one to take. Your brain produces it naturally and its even safe for old folks, because as you get older the poorer sleep becomes. Try Xyrem for good REM deep sleep. Melatonin doesn't really work for me, I've noticed I have to take a very teeny amount .125 of a mg because again the supplement companies load way to much in there. you will literally wake up with a melatonin hangover. take a 3mg pill and break off 1/4th and hold it under the tongue. But again, melatonin doesn't do it for me, in any amount. Just coffee exercise food work and then sleep...only reversed...between day and night. brain damage. it is what it is.

I have troubles with sleep also. But no insomnia really. I can fall asleep decently well now, but I just feel so damn exhausted upon waking up. And my sleep is also ridiculously light, I wake up to anything and everything. Never used to be like that. Definitely think that's hormonal. Even after sleeping 10 hours I wake up feeling like I was hit by a bus

1 hour ago, Colinboko said:

I have troubles with sleep also. But no insomnia really. I can fall asleep decently well now, but I just feel so damn exhausted upon waking up. And my sleep is also ridiculously light, I wake up to anything and everything. Never used to be like that. Definitely think that's hormonal. Even after sleeping 10 hours I wake up feeling like I was hit by a bus

Yep thats me too!!

Can fall asleep fine but very lite sleep, I can often wake at 3 or 4am and not get back to sleep. This makes for a crap following day at work where you just feel angry and want burst into tears almost.

Im sure Roche are quiet satisfied in knowing their product has great lasting qualities 20 years later.....

Xyrem - Im seeing syringes involved....No Thanks!!!

20 minutes ago, TrueJustice said:

Xyrem - Im seeing syringes involved....No Thanks!!!

Probably a bit more difficult to acquire than anything.

Maybe when bitcoin drops Ill see what I can find online

On 12/1/2017 at 6:32 PM, TrueJustice said:

Xyrem - Im seeing syringes involved....No Thanks!!!

looks like a sublingual dropper. it is tolerated well by even the elderly. Probably the safest "healthiest" synthetic sleep med on the market, from what i've heard, at least.

3 minutes ago, macleod said:

Needles? looks like a sublingual dropper. As I said, it is tolerated well by even the elderly. That would be the last thing they give to old folks. Probably the safest "healthiest" synthetic sleep med on the market.

Is that all it is? It looked like a syringe in the pics..... that's a relief as product does look interesting.

Are there any known side effects? Can you come off it quickly if you don't like it etc?

We obviously don't want that hangover feeling......I need to feel good enough to get up in the morning, go to work to keep paying for all this stuff.....

1 hour ago, TrueJustice said:

Is that all it is? It looked like a syringe in the pics..... that's a relief as product does look interesting.

Are there any known side effects? Can you come off it quickly if you don't like it etc?

We obviously don't want that hangover feeling......I need to feel good enough to get up in the morning, go to work to keep paying for all this stuff.....

http://sleephub.com.au/xyrem-in-australia/

Looks hard to get in Aus (special access scheme and all that) and can cost 600-1800 / month depending on dosage.

@tanedout@guitarman01@tryingtohelp2014

It appears that we have an emerging role of Omega-3 Oils to our condition. There are several reasons for this (one of them being induction of Peroxisome Proliferators-PPARs by EPA/DHA )

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15698426

Regarding the person that got asymptomatic from ME/CFS :

-He did not take accutane
-He removed his gallbladder prior to ME/CFS
-He had Liver issues (got Viral Hepatitis) prior to ME/CFS
-He is symptom free without any supplementation for the past 3.5 months

Personalized Regimen :

Metafolin, P5P, B1, B7, Epsom Salts,K2, Zinc (duration 8 months)

Can you explain about the omega three oils so I can understand thanks

19 hours ago, mariovitali said:

@tanedout@guitarman01@tryingtohelp2014

It appears that we have an emerging role of Omega-3 Oils to our condition. There are several reasons for this (one of them being induction of Peroxisome Proliferators-PPARs by EPA/DHA )

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15698426

Regarding the person that got asymptomatic from ME/CFS :

-He did not take accutane
-He removed his gallbladder prior to ME/CFS
-He had Liver issues (got Viral Hepatitis) prior to ME/CFS
-He is symptom free without any supplementation for the past 3.5 months

Personalized Regimen :

Metafolin, P5P, B1, B7, Epsom Salts,K2, Zinc (duration 8 months)

Is that your personalised regimen or the guy youre referring to?

If yours, are you just hoping the Vit Bs will work or do you have the belief that they really do work, youve actually had some positive results.....Too many of us have tried Vit B with no noticeable results thats all Im saying, granted Ive yet to up the dose of Thiamine just yet.

Also what is your take on Vit K, what results are you expecting??

On 12/4/2017 at 9:46 AM, TrueJustice said:

Is that your personalised regimen or the guy youre referring to?

If yours, are you just hoping the Vit Bs will work or do you have the belief that they really do work, youve actually had some positive results.....Too many of us have tried Vit B with no noticeable results thats all Im saying, granted Ive yet to up the dose of Thiamine just yet.

Also what is your take on Vit K, what results are you expecting??

The regimen is the one that this Guy uses.

Why Vitamin K is important is discussed here, noting also that PPAR (=ppargamma) node exists in the Network Analysis graph :

[removed]

I take 600 mcg per day of K2, at one point i was getting as high as 900 mcg per day.

The regimen is not about getting a Vitamin B complex. For example, Niacin may not be good for you. What we are trying to do is to give the Liver the chance to recover and we do that by supporting several biological pathways by putting into control inflammatory processes, supporting Phagocytosis and major Detoxification pathways .

Omega-3s seem to be imporant because of their involvement with PPARs and driving down Inflammation. But as discussed, quite possibly we are talking about a personalised Regimen since things that may be good for one person may not be good for someone else (this includes Vitamin K)

56 minutes ago, mariovitali said:

The regimen is the one that this Guy uses.

Why Vitamin K is important is discussed here, noting also that PPAR (=ppargamma) node exists in the Network Analysis graph :

http://algogenomics.blogspot.com/2017/05/machine-learning-nlp-and-network.html

I take 600 mcg per day of K2, at one point i was getting as high as 900 mcg per day.

The regimen is not about getting a Vitamin B complex. For example, Niacin may not be good for you. What we are trying to do is to give the Liver the chance to recover and we do that by supporting several biological pathways by putting into control inflammatory processes, supporting Phagocytosis and major Detoxification pathways .

Omega-3s seem to be imporant because of their involvement with PPARs and driving down Inflammation. But as discussed, quite possibly we are talking about a personalised Regimen since things that may be good for one person may not be good for someone else (this includes Vitamin K)

Thank you!!!

pls elaborate on the Vit K.....what do you notice from taking it, how does it make you feel etc??

@TrueJustice

48 minutes ago, mariovitali said:

@TrueJustice

I could definitely feel something in my Liver area a kind of a dull pain. 600 mcg is the smallest amount of K2 that stops this from happening at least for me that is.

I was also wondering : Do you (or any one else) has problems with delayed wound healing and slow blood coagulation? This question is mainly aimed to people having this condition for many years (e.g more than 5)

For me varicose veins, markings on teeth ( osteocalcin? ) I could very well have a calcium issue but what's the tests?
The vein specialist was very disappointing offering nothing other than stripping the vein....

Ive just been reading up on Vit K2, ideally should be taken with Vit D, also mentions how it works well with Vit A.

The jury is still out as far as I'm concerned with whether the body knows what to do with Vit A post tane, supplement with A, don't supplement with A - I'm just not entirely sure that retinoid acid didnt just completely screw our receptors and the body is in a permanent state of Vit A confusion and this is the problem. That we dont necessarily need Vit K but we need to fix receptors but good luck finding a specialist who knows how to fix receptors. I could be wrong though, maybe we do need Vit K....maybe we need to be on it for 5 years to see results?......

Do we just experiment with all the fat soluble vitamins? A,E,D, K and see how we feel?

Ill look at a new form of Vit K2 that I saw at health store which Ill take with Vit D.

Vitamin supplements are bad specially the fat soluble forms

6 hours ago, mariovitali said:

600 mcg is the smallest amount of K2 that stops this from happening at least for me that is.

Can you tell me all the varieties of k2 mk7 you have experimented with and how much zinc you are taking? Thanks

2 hours ago, guitarman01 said:

Can you tell me all the varieties of k2 mk7 you have experimented with and how much zinc you are taking? Thanks

The one i've been using comes from Natto by Healthy Origins. I also used Solgar. No difference.

I take 100% RDA of Zinc, not more than that. This along with other food sources gives me more than enough of it (and maybe too much).

My regimen is the following (however note that this is based on my SNPs) :

-K2 as MK-7
-Epsom Salts - up to 500 mg
-L-Carnitine (up to 500 mg not more)
-Omega3 (induces PPAR)
-Benfotiamine
-N-Acetylgucosamine (NAG)
-Biotin
-Jiaogulan (for LXR Induction)
-P5P
-Metafolin
-Dibencozide (once a week)
-Selenium (twice a week)
-Zinc
-Stevia instead of Sugar (induces PPARs)
-For Protein : No chicken. Beef, Salmon, Egg Whites, Navy Beans are OK
-Broccoli
-Avoid : Quinoa (inhibits PPARs), too much Vitamin A, Grapefruit, Amines, Sulfites, Mushrooms, Red Peppers

6 hours ago, brendan452 said:

Vitamin supplements are bad specially the fat soluble forms

What is your protocol?

I honestly cant say if supplements are good or bad as more often than not I dont feel any different from taking them.

Things like a reasonably good nights sleep and less stress during the day are big things I feel better from...

Lol back to supplements...

Ill be back in a week when the topic changes again

This is why I continue to look at this. There are already studies out there that show this is a possibility with Accutane. You can see the possible progression from inflammation to fibrosis(hardening of the arteries) to calcification. You could also possibly apply this to the liver @mariovitali.
Long chain menaquinones are found in the liver. They have been shown to regress liver cancer in escalating dosage treatment.

New Paper: Vitamin K2 Recommended to Support Heart Health in Aortic Valve Calcification

Nov 21,2017
https://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/news/2017/11/new-paper-vitamin-k12-recommended-to-support-heart-health-in-aortic-valve-calcification.aspx
calcific aortic valve stenosis (CAVS), a common cardiovascular condition in the aging population where no medical therapy currently exists.
According to researchers, once symptomatic severe CAVS has developed, the prognosis without intervention is dismal.
pharmacological interventions have thus far failed to alter the course of CAVS
Vitamin K supplementation is an attractive option to replenish vascular vitamin K stores to ensure optimal calcification inhibition.
This review is so very significant"

Then you can see what direction Accutane swings this or antagonizes.

Isotretinoin increased carotid intima-media thickness in acne patients

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5074391/
its effect on lipid and glucose metabolism may induce atherosclerotic complications.
Dyslipidemia and increase in liver enzymes are the most frequently seen side effects of Iso treatment
alterations in lipid profile were reminiscent of the metabolic syndrome
Long-term use of Iso may be a risk factor for atherosclerosis

VitaminK2may reverse calcification of blood vessels

The point is you want to make sure things aren't continuing to swing in the wrong direction.
That head pressure everyone gets,Your body is fighting something and I believe its vascular.
When you lose that head pressure and if it doesn't come back, that might be even more dangerous.

Love all the theory that surrounds Vit K but Ive loved the theory on many things posted on forum only to find out they dont change our condition....

As they say, the proofs in the pudding - Ill continue to take it but Id love to see some results sometime soon!!!

Heres the thing...

@guitarman I am so behind all of your theories. Do not get me wrong. But I encourage everyone to continue to get tests done that may have come back negative the first time. One thing were really good at on this forum is chucking shit to the curb when we dont get the expected results.

My Allochol tablets arrived today, from glorious mother russia.

Ill be attempting the 14 day cleanse from tomorrow and will post results once finished.

http://ekolekar.com/kak-pochistit-pechen-alloholom.html (chrome needed to translate)

Interesting how they mention additionally using malic acid (apple juice) and olive oil to assist with the allochol. Core components of the 'liver flush'.

@guitarman01

I do not disagree with the importance of K2 toi all of this. But i believe that it is part of the puzzle and not the cause hence the people here that say that they wait seeing results.

To see results, several pathways need to be supported.