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2 hours ago, Scooterman said:Hello fellow genetic mutants!
I am a scientific researcher (genetics) who also, unfortunately, has been damaged by 'Accutane'. I was very young and not mindful enough to process the potential dangers, and of course, wanted perfect skin.
you are not the first person on this thread to claim to be a "scientific researcher". You must have your degree in copy/paste expertise like the rest of them.
7 minutes ago, Modeaa said:more from that link
http://traceelements.com/Docs/The%20Nutritional%20Relationships%20of%20Copper.pdf
Synergistic vitamins, those whose requirements are increased by copper deficiency, include vitamin D, B1, B12
, C, and folic acid (B10). Supplementation of synergistic vitamins can aid in reducing the effects of copper deficiency and in restoring copper balance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17433458
The effects ofcopperand benzo[a]pyrene on retinoids and reproduction in zebrafish.
i found this.
11 hours ago, marlin15 said:14 hours ago, Scooterman said:Hello fellow genetic mutants!
I am a scientific researcher (genetics) who also, unfortunately, has been damaged by 'Accutane'. I was very young and not mindful enough to process the potential dangers, and of course, wanted perfect skin.
you are not the first person on this thread to claim to be a "scientific researcher". You must have your degree in copy/paste expertise like the rest of them.
How were you damaged? Are you able to help with research?
[Edited link out]
heres something different. sry for wall of text didnt paste right.
Basically saying like something I was saying before. hyper nasal sensitivity that can effect our whole body.
Much recent research has documented specific biochemical changes in patients who have hypersensitivity to chemicals, often causing respiratory and other symptoms. The biochemical process that causes this is a vicious cycle occurring in the brain known as neural sensitization. Basically, there is increased nitric oxide production by various mechanisms. This excess nitric oxide then produces increased peroxynitrite, a very tissue-damaging free radical. Peroxynitrite leads to tissue damage and the formation of other free radicals in many tissues of the body, including increased inflammation in the respiratory tract, gastrointestinal and genital urinary tract, lining of blood vessels, conjunctiva and skin.
Excess peroxynitrite is then converted into even more nitric oxide, unless the body has adequate substances to reduce peroxynitrite and substances to prevent this conversion to even more nitric oxide. The body uses an enzyme called SOD (super oxide dismutase) to prevent excess peroxynitrite from forming even more excess nitric oxide. SOD requires adequate amounts of the minerals zinc, copper and manganese. This vicious cycle summarized above is described in more detail with scientific references, documenting that the cycle exists and the effectiveness of substances to control it. With this knowledge, there is a scientific basis for a neural protocol to dramatically reduce these body exacerbations from low dose chemical exposures. Because there is no barrier ("blood brain barrier") between the nose and the brain, substances breathed in the nose can readily enter the brain as well as the lungs and the rest of the body. The neural protocol is designed to correct/treat this vicious biochemical cycle at its source. Left untreated, these changes lead to increased respiratory inflammation, with symptoms such as nasal congestion, sinus congestion and pain, hoarseness, coughing, chest tightness etc. These symptoms in response to low levels of chemical irritants are called reactive airway disease. It is a form of neurogenic inflammation caused by the biochemical cycle above. Unfortunately, neurogenic inflammation also affects the gastrointestinal tract, leading to increased permeability to larger food particles and the development of food intolerance. Symptoms resembling acid reflux also occur, and are not due to increased acid but rather increased inflammation. Increased genital urinary inflammation can cause pain in the genital area. When there is pain on passing urine, infection should be ruled out. Increased inflammation of blood vessel linings also occurs. This makes it harder to supply oxygen to vital organs such as the brain, heart etc. It also reduces blood flow to other organs, including but not limited to the skin, fingers and toes. Increased inflammation of the conjunctiva by this mechanism leads to a sense of "burning" in the eyes. Increased inflammation of the skin can also lead to symptoms of "burning", rashes etc. Because the above-described inflammation involves so many body areas, affected persons often feel achy and fatigued. These are symptoms that accompany excess inflammation. This excess inflammation often lowers/depletes the body proteins and minerals, impairs immunity (reduced secretory IgA), adrenal disturbances, hormonal disturbances, and many other changes. These changes are discussed in more detail in my papers of August 2001 and October 2003. I feel that a major factor producing those body changes is neural sensitization from chemical injury. It has been my experience with patients that the neural protocol used over time results in a dramatic reduction of this inflammation and thus a major reduction both in reactivity to chemicals as well as greatly reduced aching, fatigue and other body changes significantly caused by the inflammation of neural sensitization.
http://bcn.boulder.co.us/health/rmeha/rmehztra.htm Chemically-inducedreactive airway disease (upper and lowerrespiratory tract, and migraines have the mechanism of neural sensitization. Respiratory effects can include sinus congestion/pain; ear pain from eustachian tube blockage (swelling), burning/sore tongue and throat, hoarseness, bronchial symptoms of coughing, chest tightness and sometimes wheezing, and shortness of breath/ difficulty getting enough air. Neural sensitization also affects the gastrointestinal (sometimes called 'irritable bowel') and genital urinary tracts (sometimes called 'irritable bladder', etc.) the blood vessel linings (endothelium), conjunctiva and skin. Burning is a common sensation in neurogenic inflammation.
Not sure if this is real or BS?
This widespread inflammation results in aching, fatigue, adrenal and other endocrine disturbance, and resultant depletion of amino acids, minerals and other nutrients.Inflammation and the free radicals from neural sensitization damage lipid membranes, with disproportionate damage and loss of omega 3 essential membrane lipids, because these are very vulnerable to free radical damage. This lipid damage impairs the brain and nerve cell coating (myelin). It also damages function of cell membranes and membranes of mitochondria (energy production), ribosomes (which make proteins, enzymes) DNA (genetic material), and membrane receptor sites (hormones, etc.) cell messenger sites to communicate with other cells and body organs.
Theblood vessel neurogenic inflammation causes reduced blood flow,and thus reduced supply of oxygen and nutrients to body organs. The red blood cell is 7 microns, the capillary only 3 microns, so inflammation reduces the blood cell's ability to pass through. The brain is a high oxygen-demanding organ: it is only 3% of body weight but uses 20% of body oxygen at rest. Reduced blood flow in the brain in toxic encephalopathy is documented1and impairs brain functions, since all body functions depend on oxygen supply.
SO COULD WE HAVE SOME KIND OF REACTIVE AIRWAY DISEASE?
1 hour ago, guitarman01 said:http://bcn.boulder.co.us/health/rmeha/rmehztra.htm Chemically-inducedreactive airway disease (upper and lowerrespiratory tract, and migraines have the mechanism of neural sensitization. Respiratory effects can include sinus congestion/pain; ear pain from eustachian tube blockage (swelling), burning/sore tongue and throat, hoarseness, bronchial symptoms of coughing, chest tightness and sometimes wheezing, and shortness of breath/ difficulty getting enough air. Neural sensitization also affects the gastrointestinal (sometimes called 'irritable bowel') and genital urinary tracts (sometimes called 'irritable bladder', etc.) the blood vessel linings (endothelium), conjunctiva and skin. Burning is a common sensation in neurogenic inflammation.
Not sure if this is real or BS?This widespread inflammation results in aching, fatigue, adrenal and other endocrine disturbance, and resultant depletion of amino acids, minerals and other nutrients.Inflammation and the free radicals from neural sensitization damage lipid membranes, with disproportionate damage and loss of omega 3 essential membrane lipids, because these are very vulnerable to free radical damage. This lipid damage impairs the brain and nerve cell coating (myelin). It also damages function of cell membranes and membranes of mitochondria (energy production), ribosomes (which make proteins, enzymes) DNA (genetic material), and membrane receptor sites (hormones, etc.) cell messenger sites to communicate with other cells and body organs.
Theblood vessel neurogenic inflammation causes reduced blood flow,and thus reduced supply of oxygen and nutrients to body organs. The red blood cell is 7 microns, the capillary only 3 microns, so inflammation reduces the blood cell's ability to pass through. The brain is a high oxygen-demanding organ: it is only 3% of body weight but uses 20% of body oxygen at rest. Reduced blood flow in the brain in toxic encephalopathy is documented1and impairs brain functions, since all body functions depend on oxygen supply.
SO COULD WE HAVE SOME KIND OF REACTIVE AIRWAY DISEASE?
Why Copper Is Needed
So why do we need copper? Copper is present in about 21 different enzymes, and its importance has been known since 1928. For example, one important enzyme is histaminase, which breaks down histamine. So all allergic people, who overproduce histamine, certainly need to ensure that they have normal copper levels. Another copper-dependent enzyme is cytochrome oxidase, which is necessary for energy metabolism. Indeed, some people with weakness and chronic fatigue have marked copper deficiencies.
Copper is also present in superoxide dismutase, an enzyme which is useful in protecting us from developing chemical sensitivity. For example, a 33-year-old lab technician for years could not tolerate shopping malls, auto exhaust fumes and many businesses because of chemical sensitivity. She felt confused, suffered from headaches, and became weak and tired when she breathed the higher levels of chemicals commonly encountered in these environments. When we found that she had a copper deficiency and corrected it, within one month she was no longer as chemically sensitive, and could tolerate these exposures without symptoms.
Remember that chemical sensitivity requires multiple factors, one of which is that the person must be deficient in certain nutrients that are necessary for the detoxification pathways to operate normally. Once the deficiencies in these pathways are corrected many times, the chemical sensitivity is corrected.
http://www.dcnutrition.com/Minerals/detail.cfm?RecordNumber=82
6 hours ago, JustSayinn said:What's everyone diets? Anyone doing high fat? Ketosis type but healing like the GAPS Diet
lets see pasta then culvers turtle sundae last night, toaster strudel this morning, lucky charms ,coffee . pizza and beer later for the superbowl.
I do go on health kicks like smoothies and gluten free and sometimes do eat very healthy for awhile but it doesnt really make me feel much different in terms of tane sides. but you feel better just knowing your eating healthy. combine this with probiotics and digestive enzymes takes a load off your gut.
I think though thick foods like full milk and ice cream do give me problems. It might have to do with over mucus production.
those studies i just posted about hyper nasal sensitivity, I can totally relate to the burning sensations talked about. In my head, ears,sinuses throat and back, and also reflux type symptoms. A nasal steroid helps with all these issues its seems. So not sure if this is just allergies or something else.
I read this Topic from 2011...only supposition, page and page of bullshit and theory, is a tunnel without exit. i tried supplement, diet, visit 6 doctors, blood test every time perfect. Incredible but i'm 27 and from 21 mybody and my sex life is ruined forever, the frustration is high
[Edited link out]
non allergic rhinitis and causes.
On 2/7/2016 at 12:52 PM, tryingtohelp2014 said:
Why Copper Is Needed
So why do we need copper? Copper is present in about 21 different enzymes, and its importance has been known since 1928. For example, one important enzyme is histaminase, which breaks down histamine. So all allergic people, who overproduce histamine, certainly need to ensure that they have normal copper levels. Another copper-dependent enzyme is cytochrome oxidase, which is necessary for energy metabolism. Indeed, some people with weakness and chronic fatigue have marked copper deficiencies.
Copper is also present in superoxide dismutase, an enzyme which is useful in protecting us from developing chemical sensitivity. For example, a 33-year-old lab technician for years could not tolerate shopping malls, auto exhaust fumes and many businesses because of chemical sensitivity. She felt confused, suffered from headaches, and became weak and tired when she breathed the higher levels of chemicals commonly encountered in these environments. When we found that she had a copper deficiency and corrected it, within one month she was no longer as chemically sensitive, and could tolerate these exposures without symptoms.
Remember that chemical sensitivity requires multiple factors, one of which is that the person must be deficient in certain nutrients that are necessary for the detoxification pathways to operate normally. Once the deficiencies in these pathways are corrected many times, the chemical sensitivity is corrected.
http://www.dcnutrition.com/Minerals/detail.cfm?RecordNumber=82
So copper or what about an SOD supplement?
Inherited copper deficiency
Copper trafficking within most cells except hepatocytes (liver cells) is facilitated by a Cu1+-transporting ATPase called ATP7A. Mutations in the ATP7A gene impair the transport of intracellular copper, which accumulates in the cytosol of enterocytes andvascular endothelial cells (31). This results in systemic copper deficiency and decreased cuproenzyme activity. Copper transport into the brain is also affected, leading to copper accumulation in the blood-brain barrier and reduced cuproenzyme activity in neurons. Affected individuals are diagnosed with Menkes disease (MD) or with a milder form of the disease called occipital horn syndrome (OHS). The clinical features of MD include intractable seizures, connective tissue disorders, subdural hemorrhage, and hair abnormalities ("kinky hair"). OHS patients exhibit muscular hypotonia and connective tissue abnormalities, including exostosis on occipital bones. Subcutaneous injections of copper-histidine are used to bypass the defective intestinal absorption and improve copper metabolic function in patients. However, copper entry into the brain remains limited (reviewed in 32).
We couldve "inherited" a copper deficiency from accutane and the upregulated ATP7A?
Also, is it just me, or are there a high percentage of people from Australia posting on this forum? Australia is known for copper depleted soils. google it. million pages come up.
3 hours ago, tryingtohelp2014 said:Inherited copper deficiency
Copper trafficking within most cells except hepatocytes (liver cells) is facilitated by a Cu1+-transporting ATPase called ATP7A. Mutations in the ATP7A gene impair the transport of intracellular copper, which accumulates in the cytosol of enterocytes andvascular endothelial cells (31). This results in systemic copper deficiency and decreased cuproenzyme activity. Copper transport into the brain is also affected, leading to copper accumulation in the blood-brain barrier and reduced cuproenzyme activity in neurons. Affected individuals are diagnosed with Menkes disease (MD) or with a milder form of the disease called occipital horn syndrome (OHS). The clinical features of MD include intractable seizures, connective tissue disorders, subdural hemorrhage, and hair abnormalities ("kinky hair"). OHS patients exhibit muscular hypotonia and connective tissue abnormalities, including exostosis on occipital bones. Subcutaneous injections of copper-histidine are used to bypass the defective intestinal absorption and improve copper metabolic function in patients. However, copper entry into the brain remains limited (reviewed in 32).
We couldve "inherited" a copper deficiency from accutane and the upregulated ATP7A?
Also, is it just me, or are there a high percentage of people from Australia posting on this forum? Australia is known for copper depleted soils. google it. million pages come up.
Again, I have excess copper not a deficiency according to test results - as do many others who have posted.
Combating a deficiency seems easier to deal with but those with excess amounts - what are we to do??
im Aust btw!
On 2/7/2016 at 7:22 PM, JustSayinn said:What's everyone diets? Anyone doing high fat? Ketosis type but healing like the GAPS Diet
Perfect Health Diet (but low oxalate). Probably get about 100-150g carbs/day. Plenty of veggie juices, bone broth, and lacto-fermented cabbage
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These are my 23andme Results read by Sterling's $30 app:
[Edited link out]
I was told I have the same genetic susceptibilities that ALL floxies have (people who got messed up from fluoroquinolone antibiotics).
The genes in question are posted below. I have SNPs in almost every one. They affect complex 1 of mitochondrial function. A diagram is posted in the above PDF at the very bottom.
[Edited image out]
Who here has gotten the 23andMe test done? Care to compare genes with me? Ideally, you all should get this report done by Sterling's app. It's the best one that exists currently.
21 minutes ago, TrueJustice said:Again, I have excess copper not a deficiency according to test results - as do many others who have posted.Combating a deficiency seems easier to deal with but those with excess amounts - what are we to do??
im Aust btw!
When copper becomes stored in toxic quantities the body becomes both deficient and overburdened with it, in its toxic form. This is known as having no bio available copper for the body to utilize. About 6 months ago I was in Croatia and for some reason I ordered about 30 mussels for myself as I had no idea what I was reading, anyway, for the next 7 hours I had incredible clarity and was basically able to function at 100% again rather than at 30% like normal. Mussels are incredibly high in bio-available copper.
Hair tests can often not show a copper toxicity however through careful analysis of other minerals present in the soft tissue, its status can be assumed.
The approach I'm taking is to go down the nutritional balancing path with a few of my own additional supplements like alpha lipoic acid and various methylation donors while working on my diet to reduce copper, sugar and other antagonists. This might not be for everyone but there has been a few testimonials from those suffering very similar effects from propecia who have apparently seen improvements using nutritional balancing.
Why does one get side effects from methylfolate with SOD issues?When taking methylfolate, your body produces nitric oxide from it. It is one of the results from supplementing with methylfolate. This is beneficial as nitric oxide increases blood flow. However, when SOD enzyme is not working due to SOD snps or mineral deficiencies of copper, zinc or manganese, then superoxide levels are likely high. If this is the case, then the high superoxide levels combine with the increased nitric oxide to form a very damaging pro-oxidantcalled peroxynitrite.
Solution: The best way to support SOD is to make sure your red blood cell levels of manganese, zinc and copper are in the normal ranges. If they are and you have a SOD snp, then you may need tosupplement with SOD directly.
15 minutes ago, koikoi123 said:When copper becomes stored in toxic quantities the body becomes both deficient and overburdened with it, in its toxic form. This is known as having no bio available copper for the body to utilize. About 6 months ago I was in Croatia and for some reason I ordered about 30 mussels for myself as I had no idea what I was reading, anyway, for the next 7 hours I had incredible clarity and was basically able to function at 100% again rather than at 30% like normal. Mussels are incredibly high in bio-available copper.
Hair tests can often not show a copper toxicity however through careful analysis of other minerals present in the soft tissue, its status can be assumed.
The approach I'm taking is to go down the nutritional balancing path with a few of my own additional supplements like alpha lipoic acid and various methylation donors while working on my diet to reduce copper, sugar and other antagonists. This might not be for everyone but there has been a few testimonials from those suffering very similar effects from propecia who have apparently seen improvements using nutritional balancing.
Thanks for info. What about the idea of taking a copper supplement, is that an option for you/us??
what do you notice when taking ALA? I'm yet to purchase any but might look at this next along with B2 supplement.
I'm currently taking B3 ( niacin ) with no noticeable results in energy levels. If anything I'm feeling very fatigued currently but that's because I've been working very hard in a demanding job more than anything else.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17145139/
Interesting study about fat soluae vitamin toxicity, so if you are supplementing vitamin a like I did, don't forget to also supplement vitamins D and K, and some E can't hurt as well, at up to 3200/IU per day
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/3046299/ , and consumption in the long term. Like vitamin D though, in people with vitamin K deficiency adverse effects can occur, as vitamin k will be depleted quicker when on those vitamins, so make sure you balance out your fat soluable vitamin consumption.
On another note, started taurine, feeling pretty healthy, but still don't have as much endurance as I think I should. For more on that side effect, it started at earliest at about December, most likely after having 500,000iu for 3 days in a row, and I had already had about 2,000,000IU over the month before without any side effects, just so you all know, and maybe if I had supplemented the other fat soluable vitamins I would be 100% now, and recommending you so as I did.
Luckily I encountered the problem first, so I can't recommend anything until I feel 100%, hopefully being able to offer a bit more knowledge so none of you encounter negative sides 
1 hour ago, TrueJustice said:Thanks for info. What about the idea of taking a copper supplement, is that an option for you/us??what do you notice when taking ALA? I'm yet to purchase any but might look at this next along with B2 supplement.
I'm currently taking B3 ( niacin ) with no noticeable results in energy levels. If anything I'm feeling very fatigued currently but that's because I've been working very hard in a demanding job more than anything else.
Taking a copper only supplement seems to be to harrowing for the body when it is depleted or obviously in excess. Other minerals need to be balanced at the same time, primarily zinc. This is the general idea of nutritional balancing anyway.
I haven't taken ALA yet however I know its beneficial for anyone wanting to reduce the consequences of any toxic burden, I discovered it through a post on reddit about MDMA supplementation.
A short term solution for fatigue/brain fog is to take l-tyrosine and dl-phenylalanine to increase serotonin / dopamine as copper or lack thereof prevents normal neurotransmitter levels.
what about a histamine intolerance have we looked at that? been tested?
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/5/1185.long
Histamine intolerance results from a disequilibrium of accumulated histamine and the capacity for histamine degradation. The main enzyme for metabolism of ingested histamine is diamine oxidase (DAO) (1-5). An impaired histamine degradation based on a reduced DAO activity and the resulting excess of histamine may cause numerous symptoms mimicking an allergic reaction
Histamine exerts its effects by binding to its 4 receptors [histamine 1 receptor (H1R), H2R, H3R, and and H4R] on target cells in various tissues (Figure 1,Table 1). It causes smooth muscle cell contraction, vasodilatation, increased vascular permeability and mucus secretion, tachycardia, alterations of blood pressure, and arrhythmias, and it stimulates gastric acid secretion and nociceptive nerve fibers. In addition, histamine has been known to play various roles in neurotransmission, immunomodulation, hematopoiesis, wound healing, day-night rhythm, and the regulation of histamine- and polyamine-induced cell proliferation and angiogenesis in tumor models (24,25) and intestinal ischemia (26). Histamine can be metabolized in 2 ways: by oxidative deamination by DAO (former name: histaminase) or by ring methylation by histamine-N-methyltransferase (HNMT)
2 hours ago, TrueJustice said:Again, I have excess copper not a deficiency according to test results - as do many others who have posted.Combating a deficiency seems easier to deal with but those with excess amounts - what are we to do??
im Aust btw!
again, what tests show you have excess copper?!
accutane is a copper chelator. it upregulates a copper based enzyme 3.21x. upregulated=gets used up faster
If youre going off a hair analysis... the foremost expert in this area says a high hair result means you have a deficiency......
Dietrich K.Klinghardt, MD, PhD :
Oxidized used-up iron and copper get displaced into the extracellular compartment and body fluids, and appears in your hair and skin as thats your bodys most efficient way of excreting toxins without damaging your kidneys.This has led to the dangerous, and in its consequence, catastrophic assumption that these metals are the enemy and need to be restricted. It is true that oxidized metals pose a danger and have to be reduced (=substitution of electrons) or eliminated. However, when copper and iron are needed and substituted appropriately, major improvements have been observed. Appropriate antioxidant treatment can reduce these metals. Homeopathic copper and iron leads to beneficial redistribution of these metals and makes them bio-available again.
Conversely, in some patients with a clear clinical picture of histamine intolerance, normal DAO activities have been observed, so that an additional determination of histamine concentrations and interpretation of laboratory data in view of the clinic seem advisable. Histamine can be measured in plasma or in urine, as can its degradation productN-methylhistamine (53,132). Deficiency of the DAO cofactors vitamin B-6, copper, and vitamin C, which are thought to supplement histamine degradation (133), has been discussed as being controversial (14). Elevated histamine concentrations, reduced DAO activities, or both are classically found in histamine intolerance.