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2 week update-
Hairloss significantly less since starting spiro cream.
I use spiro at night all over my head. When I wake up I wash it out with nizoral. I leave nizoral on my head for 5-10mins.
Also good for acne. Two birds, one stone.
The following study used spiro twice a day, but I found it smelled to much which is why I use nirozal as my day anti androgen
"Our study demonstrates that 5% topical spironolactone cream acts as an antiandrogen in human sebaceous glands, competing with DHT receptors and producing a decrease of labelled DHT. At the concentrations used the effect has been only local. No side-effects were recorded during both studies"
Where did you order the Spiro from?
On 7/22/2014 at 3:45 AM, pjjordan said:On 7/19/2014 at 7:35 AM, itsoveryes said:2 week update-
Hairloss significantly less since starting spiro cream.
I use spiro at night all over my head. When I wake up I wash it out with nizoral. I leave nizoral on my head for 5-10mins.
Also good for acne. Two birds, one stone.
The following study used spiro twice a day, but I found it smelled to much which is why I use nirozal as my day anti androgen
"Our study demonstrates that 5% topical spironolactone cream acts as an antiandrogen in human sebaceous glands, competing with DHT receptors and producing a decrease of labelled DHT. At the concentrations used the effect has been only local. No side-effects were recorded during both studies"
Where did you order the Spiro from?
[removed]
and
[removed]
seem to be the best bets.
Just FYI,
I have S5 spiro cream, and I have used it a bit in the past. I did get side effects from it, so it did get absorbed systemically. (other guys have had the same thing occur) this is scary because this drug is taken by transgenders to become more feminine. My side effects included a weird heart beat, and I'm sure if I kept using it, libido issues, etc.
I would not recommend it, also not many ppl have reported good results with it.
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/shop/s5-cream.html
That's the one. Honestly with my T-levels I should be considering oral spiro.
On 7/22/2014 at 7:11 AM, MikeLev said:Just FYI,
I have S5 spiro cream, and I have used it a bit in the past. I did get side effects from it, so it did get absorbed systemically. (other guys have had the same thing occur) this is scary because this drug is taken by transgenders to become more feminine. My side effects included a weird heart beat, and I'm sure if I kept using it, libido issues, etc.
I would not recommend it, also not many ppl have reported good results with it.
Weird heartbeats are caused by hyperkalemia. Any other sides? Were you using it on a wet scalp? The study showed no side effects twice a day on dry skin
Yes, oral spiro lowers both T and DHT. Lower both enough and you become feminized.
Found this thread on oral spiro.
[Edited link out]
Just FYI,
I have S5 spiro cream, and I have used it a bit in the past. I did get side effects from it, so it did get absorbed systemically. (other guys have had the same thing occur) this is scary because this drug is taken by transgenders to become more feminine. My side effects included a weird heart beat, and I'm sure if I kept using it, libido issues, etc.
I would not recommend it, also not many ppl have reported good results with it.
Weird heartbeats are caused by hyperkalemia. Any other sides? Were you using it on a wet scalp? The study showed no side effects twice a day on dry skin
Yes, oral spiro lowers both T and DHT. Lower both enough and you become feminized.
Found this thread on oral spiro.
I stopped using it as soon as I noticed the weird heartbeat. I work out a lot so having random chest pains and an irregular heartbeat is not an option.
I understand the literature says it supposedly doesn't get absorbed systemically, but from my experience and also from reading various reviews of ppl who have used it online and have experienced sides, it's hard to say otherwise. The same has been said for the potent anti-androgen RU58841, that it doesn't get absorbed systemically, but that too, many guys get sides (low libido, etc).
Just FYI,
I have S5 spiro cream, and I have used it a bit in the past. I did get side effects from it, so it did get absorbed systemically. (other guys have had the same thing occur) this is scary because this drug is taken by transgenders to become more feminine. My side effects included a weird heart beat, and I'm sure if I kept using it, libido issues, etc.
I would not recommend it, also not many ppl have reported good results with it.
Weird heartbeats are caused by hyperkalemia. Any other sides? Were you using it on a wet scalp? The study showed no side effects twice a day on dry skin
Yes, oral spiro lowers both T and DHT. Lower both enough and you become feminized.
Found this thread on oral spiro.
Why would you take oral spiro?? wtf. lol
On 7/22/2014 at 8:10 AM, itsoveryes said:@mikelev
Why are you putting it on your testicles?
Well, for one thing, it's produced by men in the adrenal glands and testes, so there's that. The skin is also very thin there so it should absorb quite well. Finally there was a guy from Poland on a hair loss forum who claimed A LOT of regrowth, simply from putting progesterone *only* on his testicles.. so... yeah.
I will also put a drop of progesterone on my tongue/lips sometimes. It gets into your bloodstream via that route quite good as well.
On 7/22/2014 at 8:57 AM, itsoveryes said:Because my T levels are to high. Putting b5 aside, high T causes hairloss which is why when bodytbuilders run a cycle, many of them take s5 cream or propecia. Progesterone also suppressed T levels as you just posted.
It's much more complicated than that. In fact, the hormonal profile found in premature balding men, is actually LOW testosterone not high testosterone. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14758568
Also, I never said progesterone suppresses testosterone in men. It controls estrogen dominance though and will lower estrogen, thus improving T/E ratios (testosterone/estrogen ratio's). It will also reduce DHT levels.
Some general info on progesterone: [removed]
Past users of b5 and what helped/didn't help. (Some also took accutane)-
I just think the combination of accutane and b5 screwed up my hair big time, im just glad i got avodart in time to save most of my hair.
o yea, ive tried biotin, flaxseed oil, borage oil, zinc, vitamin c, e, b6 and all the other vitamins under the sun. LOL you shhould see my room i literly have one whole shelf devoted to vitamin containers Unfortunetly none of them worked, I would have perfered to be able to cure my problems with vitamins only but i guess it just didnt work out for me.
~2004
http://absoluteacneinfo.yuku.com/topic/445/B5-and-Hairloss-Biotin-Update?page=5
But within three months, I'd seen not only a massive drop in the speed and thickness of hair growth...but I was shedding upwards of 50 hairs per day. My dermatologist suggested I get on Propecia, and I did. I discontinued the RetinA and B5 supplements shortly thereafter, as I was worried more about my hair then my face. My hair continued to shed for the next 3-4 months, until I had hit NW2, with hair that was thinner and a darker blonde. At that point, the shedding stopped and hasn't occurred since, but I have not experienced much (if any) regrowth.
~2006
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/archive/index.php/t-21363.html
You may be onto something, but what I don't understand is why propecia would help some of the b5 hair loss sufferers (myself included)
*thats from liquid fire who commented here, but propecia caused other problems for him.
~2008
I remember talking to someone on this board several months back who was experiencing hairloss due to B5. Supposedly, his hair was restored by taking Propecia.
I started using 5% topical Minoxidil, which I think helped a lot. If it's wasn't the Minoxidil, than it was a lower B5 level or extra vitamins which I started to take. But I think minoxidil did a lot. (If correct, Minoxidil has impact on the blood vessels in the top of the head.)
~2004
http://absoluteacneinfo.yuku.com/topic/445/B5-and-Hairloss-Biotin-Update
B5 dht T theory
I'm now 24, and around 4 years ago, due to increasingly oily skin and acne I started B5 megadosing (10g a day). This worked wonders and really cleared up my oily skin.
I gradually noticed accelerated hairloss in a MPB pattern. The rate of loss correlates exactly to when I'm taking B5 so I know it's related. I've theorised that B5 somehow aids in the conversion of testosterone into DHT, hence the accelerated hairloss.
When I start taking DHT / 5ar blockers while on B5 my oily skin and acne return so that backs up my previous theory as there will be excess testosterone in my body again as the B5 is unable to aid in conversion to DHT.
If I don't take anything, and slowly come off B5 then my oily skin returns but my hair loss usually slows down. I think this is due to the fact that the testosterone concentration goes up in my blood as B5 isn't assisting in converting excess to DHT.
It seems therefore, that rather than just concentrate on preventing DHT from forming I also need to do something about the testosterone in my blood to prevent me from getting oily skin. (when I'm not taking B5, and/or taking a DHT / 5ar blocker.)
The best way I can think of is by lowering my Testosterone levels, or blocking them by raising my SHBG levels, or try and find something that can bind to the androgen receptors to prevent even testosterone from binding.
Any theories / thoughts, etc as to where I can start, what I can take as the official things for hair loss seem to be aimed at DHT, but I also need to tackle the testosterone?
Past users of b5 and what helped/didn't help. (Some also took accutane)-
I just think the combination of accutane and b5 screwed up my hair big time, im just glad i got avodart in time to save most of my hair.
o yea, ive tried biotin, flaxseed oil, borage oil, zinc, vitamin c, e, b6 and all the other vitamins under the sun. LOL you shhould see my room i literly have one whole shelf devoted to vitamin containers Unfortunetly none of them worked, I would have perfered to be able to cure my problems with vitamins only but i guess it just didnt work out for me.
~2004
http://absoluteacneinfo.yuku.com/topic/445/B5-and-Hairloss-Biotin-Update?page=5
But within three months, I'd seen not only a massive drop in the speed and thickness of hair growth...but I was shedding upwards of 50 hairs per day. My dermatologist suggested I get on Propecia, and I did. I discontinued the RetinA and B5 supplements shortly thereafter, as I was worried more about my hair then my face. My hair continued to shed for the next 3-4 months, until I had hit NW2, with hair that was thinner and a darker blonde. At that point, the shedding stopped and hasn't occurred since, but I have not experienced much (if any) regrowth.
~2006
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/archive/index.php/t-21363.html
You may be onto something, but what I don't understand is why propecia would help some of the b5 hair loss sufferers (myself included)
*thats from liquid fire who commented here, but propecia caused other problems for him.
~2008
I remember talking to someone on this board several months back who was experiencing hairloss due to B5. Supposedly, his hair was restored by taking Propecia.
I started using 5% topical Minoxidil, which I think helped a lot. If it's wasn't the Minoxidil, than it was a lower B5 level or extra vitamins which I started to take. But I think minoxidil did a lot. (If correct, Minoxidil has impact on the blood vessels in the top of the head.)
~2004
http://absoluteacneinfo.yuku.com/topic/445/B5-and-Hairloss-Biotin-Update
B5 dht T theory
I'm now 24, and around 4 years ago, due to increasingly oily skin and acne I started B5 megadosing (10g a day). This worked wonders and really cleared up my oily skin.
I gradually noticed accelerated hairloss in a MPB pattern. The rate of loss correlates exactly to when I'm taking B5 so I know it's related. I've theorised that B5 somehow aids in the conversion of testosterone into DHT, hence the accelerated hairloss.
When I start taking DHT / 5ar blockers while on B5 my oily skin and acne return so that backs up my previous theory as there will be excess testosterone in my body again as the B5 is unable to aid in conversion to DHT.
If I don't take anything, and slowly come off B5 then my oily skin returns but my hair loss usually slows down. I think this is due to the fact that the testosterone concentration goes up in my blood as B5 isn't assisting in converting excess to DHT.
It seems therefore, that rather than just concentrate on preventing DHT from forming I also need to do something about the testosterone in my blood to prevent me from getting oily skin. (when I'm not taking B5, and/or taking a DHT / 5ar blocker.)
The best way I can think of is by lowering my Testosterone levels, or blocking them by raising my SHBG levels, or try and find something that can bind to the androgen receptors to prevent even testosterone from binding.
Any theories / thoughts, etc as to where I can start, what I can take as the official things for hair loss seem to be aimed at DHT, but I also need to tackle the testosterone?
I would never recommend propecia or proscar, etc, to anybody. There are whole websites and forums dedicated to people who have messed themselves up taking only 1-2 doses of it!
Regarding your question, keeping DHT in check and also test/estrogen, I say try progesterone!
But like I said, high testosterone is not the problem and is not directly correlated to hair loss, if anything it is GOOD. I still say try progesterone though, it's cheap enough and is good stuff. Buy it from a website called 'electrical body', the product is called Progest-E. It's from scientist/Dr Ray Peat.
Because my T levels are to high. Putting b5 aside, high T causes hairloss which is why when bodytbuilders run a cycle, many of them take s5 cream or propecia. Progesterone also suppressed T levels as you just posted.
It's much more complicated than that. In fact, the hormonal profile found in premature balding men, is actually LOW testosterone not high testosterone. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14758568
Also, I never said progesterone suppresses testosterone in men. It controls estrogen dominance though and will lower estrogen, thus improving T/E ratios (testosterone/estrogen ratio's). It will also reduce DHT levels.
Total testosterone may be low, but free testosterone isn't (which is all we really care about).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3877475/ Also insulin resistance would play a role as well, more insulin would mean less binding of igf-1 and DHT down regulated igf-1 in the follicle to cause hair loss in the first place (gross simplification).
Also of course progesterone would suppress natural testosterone production, that coupled with estradiol are how you chemically castrate a male.
I tried topical nanosomal progesterone at some point because I'm on testosterone replacement anyway (either b5 or propecia resulted in my secondary hypogonadism, likely the latter), and it shut my libido down hard. I wouldn't mess around with progesterone personally. If you want actual anecdotal reports on what it does, check out transgendered forums and see why male to female users love it. Progesterone also down regulates some estrogen receptors in the body and upregulates others, and hair needs estrogen, so who knows which it does at the follicle level. Not to mention some females hair loss is triggered by progesterone. Is there even one study linking progesterone to hair loss directly?
Spiro is probably the safest anti-androgen to use IMO. RU is has more potential for systemic effects, same with duta, and finasteride. OC would be great it there was a known way to apply it that worked.
I'm also not sure what role MPB plays in B5 hairloss given it's diffuse pattern. Only thing that makes sense is the follicles local IGF-1 system is borked, reduces local aromatase (testing this theory now), or upregulation/sensitivity to DHT on all scalp follicles.
Some of the lads on a steroid forum that lost hair used a peptide called igf-1-lr3 and regrew all the hair that they lost, done a bit of research on the peptide and its 50/50 some regrew all there hair, others nothing and others actually started losing hair, anyway might be a last resort thing for me if the doctor comes up with nothing.
Some of the lads on a steroid forum that lost hair used a peptide called igf-1-lr3 and regrew all the hair that they lost, done a bit of research on the peptide and its 50/50 some regrew all there hair, others nothing and others actually started losing hair, anyway might be a last resort thing for me if the doctor comes up with nothing.
Tried it 5-ish weeks and didn't notice anything personally, well aside from increased hunger.
Likely going to try scalp injections at some point. Also have some GHRP-2 and TB-500 I might give a go at some point.
Some of the lads on a steroid forum that lost hair used a peptide called igf-1-lr3 and regrew all the hair that they lost, done a bit of research on the peptide and its 50/50 some regrew all there hair, others nothing and others actually started losing hair, anyway might be a last resort thing for me if the doctor comes up with nothing.
Tried it 5-ish weeks and didn't notice anything personally, well aside from increased hunger.
Likely going to try scalp injections at some point. Also have some GHRP-2 and TB-500 I might give a go at some point.
Ahhhh really damn there goes my last resort:-( I've been using ghrp-6 and mod-grf-129 but no luck with the hair:-( made some good gains tho.
Because my T levels are to high. Putting b5 aside, high T causes hairloss which is why when bodytbuilders run a cycle, many of them take s5 cream or propecia. Progesterone also suppressed T levels as you just posted.
It's much more complicated than that. In fact, the hormonal profile found in premature balding men, is actually LOW testosterone not high testosterone. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14758568
Also, I never said progesterone suppresses testosterone in men. It controls estrogen dominance though and will lower estrogen, thus improving T/E ratios (testosterone/estrogen ratio's). It will also reduce DHT levels.
Total testosterone may be low, but free testosterone isn't (which is all we really care about).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3877475/ Also insulin resistance would play a role as well, more insulin would mean less binding of igf-1 and DHT down regulated igf-1 in the follicle to cause hair loss in the first place (gross simplification).
Also of course progesterone would suppress natural testosterone production, that coupled with estradiol are how you chemically castrate a male.
I tried topical nanosomal progesterone at some point because I'm on testosterone replacement anyway (either b5 or propecia resulted in my secondary hypogonadism, likely the latter), and it shut my libido down hard. I wouldn't mess around with progesterone personally. If you want actual anecdotal reports on what it does, check out transgendered forums and see why male to female users love it. Progesterone also down regulates some estrogen receptors in the body and upregulates others, and hair needs estrogen, so who knows which it does at the follicle level. Not to mention some females hair loss is triggered by progesterone. Is there even one study linking progesterone to hair loss directly?
Spiro is probably the safest anti-androgen to use IMO. RU is has more potential for systemic effects, same with duta, and finasteride. OC would be great it there was a known way to apply it that worked.
I'm also not sure what role MPB plays in B5 hairloss given it's diffuse pattern. Only thing that makes sense is the follicles local IGF-1 system is borked, reduces local aromatase (testing this theory now), or upregulation/sensitivity to DHT on all scalp follicles.
No offense, but.. listening to what Dr. Ray Peat and Dr. Lee say about men using progesterone, vs someone on an acne forum... yeah.. think I'll listen to the Dr's. Also I'm feeling great and libido is great, erections, etc.
You say transgender's love progesterone, yet say spiro is the safest, when spiro is THE drug that transgender's actually love.
I've read a lot of things about progesterone and what you say does not make sense to me. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Some of the lads on a steroid forum that lost hair used a peptide called igf-1-lr3 and regrew all the hair that they lost, done a bit of research on the peptide and its 50/50 some regrew all there hair, others nothing and others actually started losing hair, anyway might be a last resort thing for me if the doctor comes up with nothing.
Tried it 5-ish weeks and didn't notice anything personally, well aside from increased hunger.
Likely going to try scalp injections at some point. Also have some GHRP-2 and TB-500 I might give a go at some point.
Ahhhh really damn there goes my last resort:-( I've been using ghrp-6 and mod-grf-129 but no luck with the hair:-( made some good gains tho.
I still think scalp injections are worth a shot, only issue is my current batch is mixed with acetic acid, and I'm not using that in my scalp!
http://www.google.com/patents/US20120245088 scroll down to examples.
Just not sure if igf-1 lr3 makes sense or if regular old igf-1 would be better.
Some of the lads on a steroid forum that lost hair used a peptide called igf-1-lr3 and regrew all the hair that they lost, done a bit of research on the peptide and its 50/50 some regrew all there hair, others nothing and others actually started losing hair, anyway might be a last resort thing for me if the doctor comes up with nothing.
Tried it 5-ish weeks and didn't notice anything personally, well aside from increased hunger.
Likely going to try scalp injections at some point. Also have some GHRP-2 and TB-500 I might give a go at some point.
Ahhhh really damn there goes my last resort:-( I've been using ghrp-6 and mod-grf-129 but no luck with the hair:-( made some good gains tho.
I still think scalp injections are worth a shot, only issue is my current batch is mixed with acetic acid, and I'm not using that in my scalp!
http://www.google.com/patents/US20120245088 scroll down to examples.
Just not sure if igf-1 lr3 makes sense or if regular old igf-1 would be better.
Yeh I think I've read before someone doing scalp injections and working well, might defiantly be worth a shot tho
No offense, but.. listening to what Dr. Ray Peat and Dr. Lee say about men using progesterone, vs someone on an acne forum... yeah.. think I'll listen to the Dr's. Also I'm feeling great and libido is great, erections, etc.
You say transgender's love progesterone, yet say spiro is the safest, when spiro is THE drug that transgender's actually love.
I've read a lot of things about progesterone and what you say does not make sense to me. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Not a single study eh?
People have tried it (myself included like I said before) and nothing came of it. Not to mention it has systemic action, and WILL suppress your LH and thus testosterone.
http://www.soulcysters.net/showthread.php/345583-Progesterone-cream-causing-sudden-and-extreme-hair-loss "Lots of hair loss since starting the cream last week. My scalp itches and hurts... " sounds like it's down-regulating estrogen to me.
Also transgender people take spiro ORALLY and not topically, unless it's to deal with hirsutism, which is great news because that's caused by excess androgen activity.
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/shop/s5-cream.html
That's the one. Honestly with my T-levels I should be considering oral spiro.
I'd be surprised if they are still that high. The body has a bit of a lag when it comes to regulating sex hormones.
No offense, but.. listening to what Dr. Ray Peat and Dr. Lee say about men using progesterone, vs someone on an acne forum... yeah.. think I'll listen to the Dr's. Also I'm feeling great and libido is great, erections, etc.
You say transgender's love progesterone, yet say spiro is the safest, when spiro is THE drug that transgender's actually love.
I've read a lot of things about progesterone and what you say does not make sense to me. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Not a single study eh?
People have tried it (myself included like I said before) and nothing came of it. Not to mention it has systemic action, and WILL suppress your LH and thus testosterone.
http://www.soulcysters.net/showthread.php/345583-Progesterone-cream-causing-sudden-and-extreme-hair-loss "Lots of hair loss since starting the cream last week. My scalp itches and hurts... " sounds like it's down-regulating estrogen to me.
Also transgender people take spiro ORALLY and not topically, unless it's to deal with hirsutism, which is great news because that's caused by excess androgen activity.
It has systemic action?? No shit, that's what you want with progesterone. The one from Ray Peat that is mixed with vit-e is the best as far as absorption rates go.
There are reports on the net of people taking everything and anything and it causing hair loss.
There's also reports of MEN taking progesterone and getting hair growth, the link you posted is a FEMALE who is also on a bunch of other stuff.
Le'ts not take into account most females when they boost their progesterone have INCREASED hair growth for the most part, right?
It has systemic action?? No shit, that's what you want with progesterone. The one from Ray Peat that is mixed with vit-e is the best as far as absorption rates go.
There are reports on the net of people taking everything and anything and it causing hair loss.
There's also reports of MEN taking progesterone and getting hair growth, the link you posted is a FEMALE who is also on a bunch of other stuff.
Le'ts not take into account most females when they boost their progesterone have INCREASED hair growth for the most part, right?
If you WANT systemic affects, and not local to the hair follicle then you aren't taking it for hair loss reason. As the only possible way it could help it topically to inhibit the local generation of DHT. This thread is all about hair loss, and not hard selling Ray Peat's progesterone cream. Until you can post some sort of study/science supporting progesterone helping hair loss, you are nothing more than a shill for a product that could have potentially long term negative effects on someone (secondary hypogonadism as a result of long term suppression of LH). I'm all for experimentation, but this has been tried and isn't worth the risk IMO. So if anyone else is looking at trying it, I strongly discourage you. Again : I've tried it, it didn't work.