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On 6/15/2021 at 3:12 AM, Wingman1 said:Sorry I found the paper but it was actually for another skin condition. I just read it wrong. Sorry.
My thoughts still stand on this tho as I did read another article that may explain your tingling and twitching... possibly.
She also has an issue with her body not being able to absorb b12. Dont think she suffered AMVC but I would add that this goes majorly under reported so she could have but just never noticed it.
Thank you. I read through her post but I don't believe this is my issue. I have never had a metallic taste in my mouth nor have I had ringing in my ears and just zero energy.
Has anyone in this thread tried using a retinoid or retinol? I know many pages back years ago, many members felt topical vitamin A "caused" spontaneous scarring or made it worse. I have not been able to find anyone who either saw improvement from using it over time or undergoing any kind of cosmetic treatment.
11 hours ago, boafriend said:Thank you. I read through her post but I don't believe this is my issue. I have never had a metallic taste in my mouth nor have I had ringing in my ears and just zero energy.
Has anyone in this thread tried using a retinoid or retinol? I know many pages back years ago, many members felt topical vitamin A "caused" spontaneous scarring or made it worse. I have not been able to find anyone who either saw improvement from using it over time or undergoing any kind of cosmetic treatment.
Ah no problem. Just a thought as I had my bloods done and have came back low (not deficient) in vit b12 and folic acid. Going on a course just now.
Just had my second microneedling done and not sure if its causing more scarring or not.. pores seem bigger and im noticing new lines (could be my imagination also) but im not sure if this is just my skin healing. I will probably do the 3 courses and give it 3 months to evaluate if there is any change.
I also found a really good doctor from India, Dr Aseem Sharma who has published articles on AMVC and seems to be one of the top dermatologists in india. He wants to control my rosacea first and has put me on a skin care routine with low dose doxycycline. I have a zoom appointment with him next month where he is going to help with these random scarringz.
Give him a look up. He seems very knowledgeable.
On 6/30/2021 at 3:29 AM, Wingman1 said:Ah no problem. Just a thought as I had my bloods done and have came back low (not deficient) in vit b12 and folic acid. Going on a course just now.
Just had my second microneedling done and not sure if its causing more scarring or not.. pores seem bigger and im noticing new lines (could be my imagination also) but im not sure if this is just my skin healing. I will probably do the 3 courses and give it 3 months to evaluate if there is any change.
I also found a really good doctor from India, Dr Aseem Sharma who has published articles on AMVC and seems to be one of the top dermatologists in india. He wants to control my rosacea first and has put me on a skin care routine with low dose doxycycline. I have a zoom appointment with him next month where he is going to help with these random scarringz.
Give him a look up. He seems very knowledgeable.
Thanks. Yeah unfortunately from my understanding microneedling can make skin look worse for some individuals, regardless of AMVC or not -- but generally, it is not supposed to, and skin worsening is a sign that something isn't right since microneedling essentially is pumping your immune system to work.
I'm unsure about dermatologists -- most are of zero help. I don't know what thisDr. Aseem Sharma could do. Then again, I have never spoken with a dermatologist who has actually worked on papers with AMVC. The general approach I have heard with if you have AMVC is to just have a no-frills skincare routine, and unfortunately many sufferers feel one should not attempt any cosmetic work. I have not across a single reported sufferer who has seen improvement with microneedling or lasers or anything. You may be the first one I have seen. I personally have tried things with no real results.It seems like you have to set up an appointment with this doctor and can't even just ask a question for free. LMK what insight he can give. Every medical professional I have spoken with who has even heard of AMVC just tellsme "there's nothing we can do; there's not enough medical understanding on it."
Based on my own experience and i've also been warned by fellow members here not to do microneedling if our skin regeneration or healing is not a top notch condition. it'd make it worse! i've done microneedling 4x and it changes my texture to the point i currently have to undo them with fractional Er laser. it improves but i'm not sure i'd get my original texture back #sic
i wonder why the people in the forum and NOT the doctors who warn me about this!! the derms just kept telling microneedling give great results but to which patients?? they should know that better or they just normally shut their ears down just because there is no clinical studies around?!!! such insensitive act
HTH!
Just now, poorbunny888 said:Based on my own experience and i've also been warned by fellow members here not to do microneedling if our skin regeneration or healing is not a top notch condition. it'd make it worse! i've done microneedling 4x and it changes my texture to the point i currently have to undo them with fractional Er laser. it improves but i'm not sure i'd get my original texture back #sic
i wonder why the people in the forum and NOT the doctors who warn me about this!! the derms just kept telling microneedling give great results but to which patients?? they should know that better or they just normally shut their ears down just because there is no clinical studies around?!!! such insensitive act
HTH!
I'm not wingman1, but the reason doctors suggest cosmetic work is because AMVC is NOT understood or known by most medical professionals. They just see acne scarring and suggest cosmetic procedures to improve the appearance. Microneedling is a popular procedure but not for everyone; even people with non-scarred skin or non-AMVC acne scarring can have an adverse effect on their skin. I don't know if the same can be said for lasers or peels though. I have a fear that those with AMVC will not be able to enjoy cosmetic treatments due to the unknown fragile nature of the skin. You don't know whether you will see actual improvement or if your skin will worsen. Unfortunately it's just a risk we're gonna have to take.
30 minutes ago, poorbunny888 said:Based on my own experience and i've also been warned by fellow members here not to do microneedling if our skin regeneration or healing is not a top notch condition. it'd make it worse! i've done microneedling 4x and it changes my texture to the point i currently have to undo them with fractional Er laser. it improves but i'm not sure i'd get my original texture back #sic
i wonder why the people in the forum and NOT the doctors who warn me about this!! the derms just kept telling microneedling give great results but to which patients?? they should know that better or they just normally shut their ears down just because there is no clinical studies around?!!! such insensitive act
HTH!
Well tbh my skin is looking not 2 bad but I will let you know if i seen any improvement on the scar side. Think after my 3rd it can take 3-6 months.
How long did it take for you to notice a difference?
I have this amvc scarring after accutane. My skin doesn't scar at all from pimples/acne before accutane. After last dose of accutane, my skin scar very easily, from products that shouldn't make a normal skin scar, like exfoliating products, all sorts of scar treatments like laser, microneedling, chemical peelings. Everything!I can't do any scar treatments at all or i get new scars or the current scars deepen.
My skin is so dry that there are patches of dry rough skin that peels, then it leaves scars too. These are all caused by accutane and i don't know what to do.
No one seem to have the answer why accutane caused this. Worse is most people don't even know accutane can caused this.
Does anyone here know why accutane caused the skin to scar so easily and abnormally? Any solution to this?
29 minutes ago, jellyy said:I have this amvc scarring after accutane. My skin doesn't scar at all from pimples/acne before accutane. After last dose of accutane, my skin scar very easily, from products that shouldn't make a normal skin scar, like exfoliating products, all sorts of scar treatments like laser, microneedling, chemical peelings. Everything!I can't do any scar treatments at all or i get new scars or the current scars deepen.
My skin is so dry that there are patches of dry rough skin that peels, then it leaves scars too. These are all caused by accutane and i don't know what to do.
No one seem to have the answer why accutane caused this. Worse is most people don't even know accutane can caused this.
Does anyone here know why accutane caused the skin to scar so easily and abnormally? Any solution to this?
No one knows. There is no understanding of why. But you are one of MANY in thisthread who claim Accutane left their skin like this.
I saw a derm earlier this week for a growth I need to have removed. I told her about AMVC and she said there is a family of atrophia skin diseases that unfortunately are hard to treat and this is one of them. She asked if I ever have had eczema before, which I have, and she said it's possible a certain skin protein from eczema that is inside the skin causes this. I showed her my kneecaps that have lines and she said she can tell there has been inflammation there.
She did, however, encourage me to start tretinoin 0.025%. I mentioned the reports from this thread of people saying retin-A of any kind "causes" more scarring but IDK...she told me there isn't any way that topically it can worsen your skin (given you are using it as directed and using SPF). So unfortunately I will give this a shot. As for my scarring, yeah, she just said I can pursue cosmetic work.
8 minutes ago, boafriend said:No one knows. There is no understanding of why. But you are one of MANY in thing thread who claim Accutane left their skin like this.
I saw a derm earlier this week for a growth I need to have removed. I told her about AMVC and she said there is a family of atrophia skin diseases that unfortunately are hard to treat and this is one of them. She asked if I ever have had eczema before, which I have, and she said it's possible a certain skin protein from eczema that is inside the skin causes this. I showed her my kneecaps that have lines and she said she can tell there has been inflammation there.
She did, however, encourage me to start tretinoin 0.025%. I mentioned the reports from this thread of people saying retin-A of any kind "causes" more scarring but IDK...she told me there isn't any way that topically it can worsen your skin (given you are using it as directed and using SPF). So unfortunately I will give this a shot. As for my scarring, yeah, she just said I can pursue cosmetic work.
Have you take accutane before? Does your scars appear after accutane if yes?
And if yes, I don't think you should try this tretinoin.
Do you know if anyone skin was back to normal, meaning dont scar easily or abnormally, from peoplethat said that accutane had caused their skin to be like this? Mine has been like this for 4 years since last dose of accutane, and it only get worse in how easy it is to scar.
3 minutes ago, jellyy said:Have you take accutane before? Does your scars appear after accutane if yes?
And if yes, I don't think you should try this tretinoin.Do you know if anyone skin was back to normal, meaning dont scar easily or abnormally, from peoplethat said that accutane had caused their skin to be like this? Mine has been like this for 4 years since last dose of accutane, and it only get worse in how easy it is to scar.
I have never taken Accutane before.
I don't know how the skin ofany Accutane user who claims AMVC started for them is like nowbecause NO ONE in this thread will come back to give updates or anything. No one wants to speak on it, and I don't know why. I have only heard of some people who claim AMVC stopped for them...but they're left with the damage from scarring and don't know how to fix it. People are scared to persue cosmetic work saying it can "worsen" their skin.
No one can help. The derm I saw, as empathetic as she was, even cannot guarantee or help with anything. Her reasoning I'm hearing these statements from people on Acne.org but I haven't tried anything on my own, so I don't know how my skin will react.
On 6/5/2018 at 12:28 AM, Anish004 said:pit
Hi @boafriend, I'm dealing with this issue too currently. Could it be linked to Vitamin A by any chance? I have been taking a skin supplement with beta-carotene for over 6 months now, and last month my skin has gotten thinner, more sensitive and more prone to scarring. I have been reacting to products I used to be fine with...no idea why this is happening.
@jelly seems to have gotten it from an overdose of vitamin A (retinol type), which is something that is lesser known about accutane. I wonder if any form of vitamin A can make skin more prone to spontaneous scarring...
What are you using on your face?
Hey guys,
Im new to this discussion board, but Im committed tostaying and figuring this out for all of us. Like boafriend, I feelterrible about this condition. Ive always been handsome, and to have my skin consistently scar for no reason, little by little,is crushing.
Judging by his photos, my skin might be really similar to boafriends. But anyway, here are my facts:
- age: 27
- gender: male
- ethnicity: Asian (Japanese) and Latino (Spaniard + South American Indigenous)
- autoimmune issues?: Yes; eczema from birth; allergies to dogs, cats.
- stress levels: fairly high (Im working to lower them)
- skin type: oily, dry, sensitive, prone to cystic acne
- sleep patterns: tend to stay up late and get ok sleep quality.
- my diet: few vegetables for years, few fruits, lots of carbs, some protein. Trying to change that. I cut out gluten and dairy.
- exercise habits: not much for years. Trying to get more active on weightlifting.
- Vitamin A/Accutane use: No Accutane. Some light retinol usage in my teens, over a decade ago.
- spontaneous scarring began in summer 2019. Very subtle at first.
- fragile skin? Yes. I first noticed the scarring because I itched my cheek with my index finger nail, and itleft a pitted scar! To this day, my facial skin seems unableto heal without atrophic scarring.
- spontaneous scarring is concentrated on my cheeks
- in summer 2020, I also developed the nasolabial folds that boafriend mentioned. Theyre still with me.
- the scars and nasolabial folds are less visible in the morning.I dont know why.
Some comments: First, Ive found a way to eliminate cystic acne for my skin type (at least, its worked in my case). I use a washcloth in cold water to gently scrub my face in the morning and evening. Then I hydrate with plant derived Squalene oil (from The Ordinary). Thats it. It treats the three causes of cystic acne: damage to pores, clogged dead skin, and oil. The cold water doesnt damage the pores and the washcloth removes the oil and dead skin. Its so much more effective than using any commercial product, and I think more people with cystic acne should try it!
Ok, but now to the spontaneous scarring. Despite ending my cystic acne, I still get spontaneous scars (details in the list above). Im really perplexed by this condition. One thought that I havent seen in the forum so far: Has anyone considered that this might be a heavy metal issue? My scarring started a couple years after I cut gluten. Rice, which I eat a lot, is known to retain heavy metals from the soil. Could it also be caused by exposure to sunlight? Boafriend, do you use heavy sunscreen?
One other miscellaneous fact:the summer of 2019 I stopped using dailyfrequent antihistamine medication for allergies, which Id used daily for over a decade. Did that affect my immune system? No idea, but worth mentioning. Sometimes unlikely facts can spark an idea in someone else.
Id really like to coordinate with you guys ( @boafriend, @WishCleanand anyone else) to try stuff out and see if it makes a difference. Im willing to be a bit of a guinea pig if you guys have ideas. Lets figure this out, because its just fing awful.
P.S. Any typos are the result of my iPhone.
On 8/19/2021 at 2:59 PM, boafriend said:I have never taken Accutane before.
I don't know how the skin ofany Accutane user who claims AMVC started for them is like nowbecause NO ONE in this thread will come back to give updates or anything. No one wants to speak on it, and I don't know why. I have only heard of some people who claim AMVC stopped for them...but they're left with the damage from scarring and don't know how to fix it. People are scared to persue cosmetic work saying it can "worsen" their skin.
No one can help. The derm I saw, as empathetic as she was, even cannot guarantee or help with anything. Her reasoning I'm hearing these statements from people on Acne.org but I haven't tried anything on my own, so I don't know how my skin will react.
Have you asked a doctor whether it might be lupus that's attacking the skin?
On 1/4/2022 at 9:52 AM, WishClean said:Hi @boafriend, I'm dealing with this issue too currently. Could it be linked to Vitamin A by any chance? I have been taking a skin supplement with beta-carotene for over 6 months now, and last month my skin has gotten thinner, more sensitive and more prone to scarring. I have been reacting to products I used to be fine with...no idea why this is happening.
@jelly seems to have gotten it from an overdose of vitamin A (retinol type), which is something that is lesser known about accutane. I wonder if any form of vitamin A can make skin more prone to spontaneous scarring...
What are you using on your face?
Same question to @WishClean:Have you asked a doctor whether it might be lupus that's attacking the skin?
Hi everyone,
I started a new thread where I post horrible photos of my self. Let me know if you have any feedback.
23 hours ago, Vanderlinden said:Have you asked a doctor whether it might be lupus that's attacking the skin?
Same question to @WishClean:Have you asked a doctor whether it might be lupus that's attacking the skin?
I don't think it's lupus...I posted photos
...
@Shelly126
I believe most people here suffer from "orange peel texture" due to excessive exfoliation/sun exposure/dehydration. The only thing everyone here have in common is the history of acne and/or excessive use of exfoliating agents. I do not believe those are true scars (they don't just appear and disappear on their own). It's probably enlarged pores that sort of morged together.
As for me, I am doing pretty good. Most of my large pores are gone, some smaller scars disappeared completely but most bigger ones are still there altough they don't look nearly as bad. I believe it will take years for the damage to be reversed and moisture barrier to be restored. Just as it took years of daily use of harsh products to mess it up.
What I did:
1. I wash my face once a day in the shower with cold water only. That's it.
2. I don't use any products.
3. I don't eat gluten and dairy (but that's mostly because those things apparently cause my acne and other health issues). I do have some kind of allergic reaction to dairy though. If I accidentally eat it, I get a rash now.
4. I avoid being in the sun for more than 30 min.
Overall, I'm doing great. No new scars appeared since my last post. Whatever it was, it was halted with not using any products and giving my skin rest. I'm sure it will heal in time. I am kind of happy it happened though, because it finally forced me to look at my diet to fix my health issues instead of relying on products/pills.
6 hours ago, Kukaku said:@Shelly126
I believe most people here suffer from "orange peel texture" due to excessive exfoliation/sun exposure/dehydration. The only thing everyone here have in common is the history of acne and/or excessive use of exfoliating agents. I do not believe those are true scars (they don't just appear and disappear on their own). It's probably enlarged pores that sort of morged together.
As for me, I am doing pretty good. Most of my large pores are gone, some smaller scars disappeared completely but most bigger ones are still there altough they don't look nearly as bad. I believe it will take years for the damage to be reversed and moisture barrier to be restored. Just as it took years of daily use of harsh products to mess it up.
What I did:
1. I wash my face once a day in the shower with cold water only. That's it.
2. I don't use any products.
3. I don't eat gluten and dairy (but that's mostly because those things apparently cause my acne and other health issues). I do have some kind of allergic reaction to dairy though. If I accidentally eat it, I get a rash now.
4. I avoid being in the sun for more than 30 min.
Overall, I'm doing great. No new scars appeared since my last post. Whatever it was, it was halted with not using any products and giving my skin rest. I'm sure it will heal in time. I am kind of happy it happened though, because it finally forced me to look at my diet to fix my health issues instead of relying on products/pills.
The problem is this idea of over exfoliation has been presented before and it just doesnt hold true. How would you explain actual divots and linear scars that form then?
Stopping all products isnt ideal either since your skin does need an actual cleaning from time to time, not to mention you should be wearing sunscreen daily too.
I have been dairy-free for years now and did try plant-only and gluten-free diets last year to nothing significant.
For me, AMVC comes and goes. Very weird.
Sadly this disease is something we will never have professional understanding or help of.
I can't speak for you, I can only share my own experience. What I did helped Me personally and I hope maybe it'll help someone else.
"How would you explain actual divots and linear scars that form then?"
- The reason I do not think those are real scars is because they look MUCH less prominent in the morning when your skin is the most hydrated due to accumulation of dermal fluid in your face. I wake up and almost don't see any "scars" (only hyperpigmentation), but they become quite visible by the end of the day. I have acne scars and those DO NOT change in shape/size throughout the day.
"Stopping all products isnt ideal either since your skin does need an actual cleaning from time to time"
- You don't tho. You do not technically NEED to use anything on your skin to clean it, it cleans itself constantly by shedding the outer layer. And unless you're working in a coal mine, cold water once/twice a day is more than sufficient to remove all the debris that accumulates throughout the day.
"not to mention you should be wearing sunscreen daily too."
- I agree with you there. But that again depends on how much time you spend outside, where you live and your skin tone. I personally spend most of the day inside, so it's not a big deal for me.
"I have been dairy-free for years now and did try plant-only and gluten-free diets last year to nothing significant."
- I no longer believe diet has anything to do with it. I only follow gluten-free and dairy-free diet to keep my acne and other health issues at bay.
"Sadly this disease is something we will never have professional understanding or help of."
- You might have AMVC, I don't know. But I think most people here (me included) don't. We probably just have very, very dehydrated skin. Most people here also spend too much time "taking care" of their skin which further makes me believe we are personally responsible for messing up our skin.
10 hours ago, Kukaku said:
I can't speak for you, I can only share my own experience. What I did helped Me personally and I hope maybe it'll help someone else.
"How would you explain actual divots and linear scars that form then?"
- The reason I do not think those are real scars is because they look MUCH less prominent in the morning when your skin is the most hydrated due to accumulation of dermal fluid in your face. I wake up and almost don't see any "scars" (only hyperpigmentation), but they become quite visible by the end of the day. I have acne scars and those DO NOT change in shape/size throughout the day.
So I have to say that for this point: everyones skin looks better right when they wake up in the morning because everyone has some degree of bloating or fluid retention from lying down all night long. Once you wash your face and get your blood and lymphatic system going, that morning glow fades away. And your actual skin texture shows.
You cant use this to argue that the scars arent real.
It's a matter of semantics. All it ("morning glow") proves to me is that they're not like the other scars (e.g. acne scars). If they were "true scars", they'd be there all the time. And if they can come and go, I'd argue it's possible to make them go away and keep it that way. And I've already noticed most smaller scars disappear, so I'm convinced I'm on the right path and it's just going to take longer for bigger ones to disappear as well.
@wingman1 does it stop after finishing accutane? How long have you take it
@tartakenga710gmail-com
Its likely most people here arent suffering from amvc but rather compromised skin barrier(literal thinning of the stratum corneum) and increased tewl(transepidermal water loss). Accutane(so is topical retinoids) definitely makes your skin more fragile, the research is pretty clear on that. It causes quite substantial loss of desmosomes and tonofibrils (a sort of glue that keeps your skin cells together), thats what probably makes the skin so sensitive to sunlight and increases tewl. There is also some evidence to suggest that accutane increases Staphylococcus aureus colonization on the skin, again, probably due to compromised skin integrity. The bad news is, oral isotretinoin might actually cause long lasting (perhaps even permanent) changes in gene expression in the skin. The good news is, in most cases that doesnt appear to be true. IMHO, your skin should get back to normal in time (although were probably talking about months and years) if you just leave it alone.
My skin have been steadily improving over the last months by sticking to basically a cavemen regimen. However, last week I decided to start wearing sunscreen and I had to use a cleanser (Cerave which is supposed to be pretty gentle) to remove it and guess what, all of it came back the very next day. Large pores, scar like lines, indentations are a lot more visible and deep. I feel like Im back to where I started. But hey, at least I know now that I was 100% correct on this one. Literally the only thing that unites everyone here is that all of us suffered from acne and 1) either used harsh topical treatments or 2) took accutane.
What I believe most of us are going through:
Prolonged damage to stratum corneum -> increased TEWL and decreased hydration -> more apparent scars/fine lines and easily scarred skin -> if the skin continues to be damaged, it will probably lead to eczema and premature skin aging.
So this is what I do and suggest others do as well:
1) Thats the most important point - stop using literally all products. Nothing should touch your skin! And I mean nothing, no moisturizer, no lotions, no sunscreen, no makeup, dont even touch it. Its badly damaged and anything you apply will penetrate a lot deeper into your skin and cause inflammation, making things worse. You need to build up that stratum corneum first and the only way to do it is by leaving your skin alone. This WILL take many months.
2) Wash your face with cold water once/twice a day. Cold water wont strip oils and actually reduce inflammation.
3) Keep the humidity in your room at >40% at all times. You cant afford to lose any water. Obviously also make sure to drink enough water (preferably with electrolytes) throughout the day.
4) Spend less time outside, avoid sun and use brimmed hats when you do go out.
5) Go to Cronometer and be meticulous with your macros and micros. I had no idea that I consistently wasnt getting enough potassium, magnesium, vitamin C (which is crucial for collagen synthesis), vitamin E and omega 3. Supplement everything youre deficient in, including Vitamin D.
6) Sleep and exercise.