Acne.org Products
Fortunately, I found this website and learned about subcision and other methods of reducing the appearance of acne scarring: TCA CROSS METHOD, topical anti-oxidants (Ester C, Retin-A, Alpha Lipoic Acid, etc., chemical peels, etc.
Hey Matt - thought I'd let you know and maybe get a couple pointers if you have any. I have my subcision with DeSpain this Friday. Planning on doing suction with it starting probably 2 days after and about 2 to 3 times a day for 2 weeks. Will be using a microdermabrasion machine for that but the thing doesn't have the best suctioning power. How much power did you use approx?
Have you seen DeSpain since your last subcision/suction and mentioned the suction part to him? I've been to 2 diff docs and mentioned the suction and they kind of blow it off.
Any pointers for a first-timer? Drugs, topicals, ice or no ice, pressure or no pressure, etc. I took off 2 weeks from work and hopefully can go back then without any noticeable bruises/damages.
Thanks!!!
I was wondering how long it took you to get a consultation appointment and then how long you had to wait for the actual preocedure, Now that class is out, im planning on making my appointment to see Despain.
DeSpain's rather easy to get into. You shouldn't have a problem.
Thanks a lot Matt,
so this is my plan from tomorrow on:
1. In the first week I will suction every day, two-three times a day by passing the nozzle over the scars a few times (each of these passes shouldn´t be longer than 4 secs.)
2. In the second week I will do the same thing but only every second day.
1. Q: So this is exactly how its explained in the study and therefore the best way ?
2. Q: I still got my plasters on the treated scars. Should I leave them until I start suctioning or can I take them off. When did you take off your bandages ?
Last Question: This one is the most important to me:
When you started suctioning was there no depression, didn´t you see the scar and did the suctioning only prevented it from reappearing ?
..or when you started suctioning it was it still depressed then and only after the first days of suctioning it became elevated/even and invisible ?
So basically: Did suctioning only maintain the result that was done by subcision anyways or did it improve/elevate the scar even more ?
Do you get it ? Its this fine differece 
I would be again very grateful if you answered because this is the crucail step for me right now.
Many thanks in advance !
Thanks a lot Matt,
so this is my plan from tomorrow on:
1. In the first week I will suction every day, two-three times a day by passing the nozzle over the scars a few times (each of these passes shouldn´t be longer than 4 secs.)
2. In the second week I will do the same thing but only every second day.
1. Q: So this is exactly how its explained in the study and therefore the best way ?
2. Q: I still got my plasters on the treated scars. Should I leave them until I start suctioning or can I take them off. When did you take off your bandages ?
Last Question: This one is the most important to me:
When you started suctioning was there no depression, didn´t you see the scar and did the suctioning only prevented it from reappearing ?
..or when you started suctioning it was it still depressed then and only after the first days of suctioning it became elevated/even and invisible ?
So basically: Did suctioning only maintain the result that was done by subcision anyways or did it improve/elevate the scar even more ?
Do you get it ? Its this fine differece
I would be again very grateful if you answered because this is the crucail step for me right now.
Many thanks in advance !
I took my bandages off 24 hours after my last subcision treatment. I believe that I waited two days before using the vacuum on my face - my wife thought it was hilarious looking to see my face attached to the end of a vacuum sweeper.
My face was really swollen from this last round of subcision, so I didn't see the craters (scars) re-appear when I started suctioning.
In fact, unlike my previous experiences with subcision, the scars on my left cheek never did re-appear. Praise God!
In the past, the depressions/craters would re-appear to varying depths after the swelling went down and would fill up to various depths over the course of time.
This time, however, it was rather miraculous in that the fibrous bands didn't appear to re-attach to my skin.
For me, my rear-view mirror in my car was always my nemesis: my reflection always reflected a deep-pock marked appearance which I hated. The bathrooms at work with the harsh lighting made me look awful.
After this last round of subcision, the appearance of my scarring was greatly reduced. It's been about six months now and my skin looks really good. Again, not perfect, but oh soooo much better.
I suctioned my face several times a day for two weeks straight with no break - I don't know that I followed the study to the letter. I didn't apply much pressure to my face after the procedure and used fewer ice packs - I was desperate to get even more results. I believe that the repeated and continual force of the vacuum nozzle was enough to prevent the fibrous bands from re-attaching themselves to my epidermis.
My right cheek has deeper scarring and didn't respond as well. But, I'm at the point where I'm content with my appearance. I may go back for a fifth round of subcision, but I'm giving myself a long break before I do it again. I was really black/blue and swollen for a long time even after two weeks.
I'm going to do a 25% TCA peel in about a month - I have a week of vacation and plan on seeing my dermatologist again so that he can see the great results achieved from this last round of subcision.
Hope this helps.
Matt
Oh it is great that you responded ! Its always a relief to have some urgent questions answered !
Today is the second day and therefore I will try the suction method today 
Oh, but silly me !
I forgot to ask one more question: You said you took a hand-held vacuum sweeper. As I was looking for a new one to buy all the hand-held vacuum sweepers appeared to me not to have enough power (they didn´t pull the skin when I tried them on the skin of my arm).
I´ve got a normal vacuum cleaner at home though and its exactly adjustable, so from very low to very high pressure. So I think the power of an hand-held sweeper is within its range.
Would you advise me to use one then ? And did you use so much power that the skin was actually pulled in the nozzle or less ?
Im a bit confused as you say you used a hand-held sweeper and you still had to lower the pressure with your hand. Im scared of using to much pressure (if this could be dangerous at all..)
This is my last question. After that I will only report
Thank you for your patience to answer my endless questions !
Regards
I used a small Oreck hand held vacuum sweeper and the suction was very strong on this unit. So much so that I buffered the amount of suction power by cupping my hand over the end of the nozzle.
The suction power definitely pulled my skin into the nozzle which is why I cupped my hand around the nozzle to reduce the suction power somewhat.
It was quite the sight!
Matt
Matt,
bad news. The scar is still/already/again nearly as depressed as before, altough I started suctioning today (even one day before recommendation !) I guess your scars and the scars treated in the study have never been depressed anymore and rather even.
I must say my scars are rather small so the subcision may not have worked well on them.
Damn !!!!
Is it worth to continue ..??
Man, Im a bit down since I was very hopeful about this method.
Please reply 
Thank you very much indeed.
I'm surprised that you don't have swelling given the fact that the procedure was so recent. I had massive swelling.
Some other factors to keep in mind that can impact your results:
1) skill level of your physician
2) angle and direction used to undermine the scars
During my last procedure, I heard a lot of snapping and popping noises, so I knew that my doctor was aggressively going after my scars.
The nurse who was assisting him even remarked after the procedure that my left cheek looked especially good.
Hang in there.....a lot of your improvement may be incremental. My second and third procedures yielded the least dramatic results while my first and fourth procedures yielded the most dramatic results.
Slow and steady wins the race....
Matt
My face was really swollen from this last round of subcision, so I didn't see the craters (scars) re-appear when I started suctioning.
In fact, unlike my previous experiences with subcision, the scars on my left cheek never did re-appear. Praise God!
In the past, the depressions/craters would re-appear to varying depths after the swelling went down and would fill up to various depths over the course of time.
Matt
Ah just checking in with you guys here. Had my subcision with Dr. DeSpain 2 days ago. We did about 25 to 30 scars. I said while I'm here and have the downtime let's go for BROKE! Probably have at least 40 to 50 needle insertions and your right Matt the insertion wounds are healing nice and probably won't be able to tell where they are in a couple weeks. I only see one very small insertion that might turn into a small ice pick type of scar.
Matt, do you have any idea how much business your referring to DeSpain?, you should get a cut of this! lol. They kept on telling me about a person who flew from Minnesota just to have that done there!
I started my suctioning yesterday on a scar that was starting to re-attach itself. I said I seen this song and dance before with lasers and wasn't about to let it depress any more. I'm using a 3 horsepower shop vac with my hand cupped around the nozzle so it doesn't scratch my skin. I don't think to much suction is bad, a hypertrophic scar is a lot easier to correct than a depressed one. Plus hypertropic are a lot less visible to the naked eye.
Overall i think the key for suctioning is to start suctioning before they start to depress and keep doing it for a while so they don't depress ever again.
I can already tell this early in the game that my results will be VERY GOOD and really looking forward to the final product; I might need a second subcision but that will be for more of fine tunning I would think. I am SO GLAD AND GRATEFUL I found this site and the people who contribute to it.
10yearswiththis: I never heard of anyone fixing the issue with 1 or 2 subcisions, but I undrstand your optimism because i think weve all been there. All i'll say is don't expect miracles even for the shallow ones at first just decent improvements. Suctioning doesn't 100% prevent redepression, just prolongs the time that it takes...which is helpful for the healing. Over the following months - 3 months things will in the beginning redepress, then slowly start filling in over the following weeks so don't get too discouraged if it does go back down.
10yearswiththis: I never heard of anyone fixing the issue with 1 or 2 subcisions, but I undrstand your optimism because i think weve all been there. All i'll say is don't expect miracles even for the shallow ones at first just decent improvements. Suctioning doesn't 100% prevent redepression, just prolongs the time that it takes...which is helpful for the healing. Over the following months - 3 months things will in the beginning redepress, then slowly start filling in over the following weeks so don't get too discouraged if it does go back down.
I hear ya. I'm not expecting miracles at all, I'll never have porcelin like skin; just looking for good improvement. If I could get away with needing only one more subcision that would be a miracle. Probably throw in a laser too for safety sake.
My face was really swollen from this last round of subcision, so I didn't see the craters (scars) re-appear when I started suctioning.
In fact, unlike my previous experiences with subcision, the scars on my left cheek never did re-appear. Praise God!
In the past, the depressions/craters would re-appear to varying depths after the swelling went down and would fill up to various depths over the course of time.
Matt
Ah just checking in with you guys here. Had my subcision with Dr. DeSpain 2 days ago. We did about 25 to 30 scars. I said while I'm here and have the downtime let's go for BROKE! Probably have at least 40 to 50 needle insertions and your right Matt the insertion wounds are healing nice and probably won't be able to tell where they are in a couple weeks. I only see one very small insertion that might turn into a small ice pick type of scar.
Matt, do you have any idea how much business your referring to DeSpain?, you should get a cut of this! lol. They kept on telling me about a person who flew from Minnesota just to have that done there!
I started my suctioning yesterday on a scar that was starting to re-attach itself. I said I seen this song and dance before with lasers and wasn't about to let it depress any more. I'm using a 3 horsepower shop vac with my hand cupped around the nozzle so it doesn't scratch my skin. I don't think to much suction is bad, a hypertrophic scar is a lot easier to correct than a depressed one. Plus hypertropic are a lot less visible to the naked eye.
Overall i think the key for suctioning is to start suctioning before they start to depress and keep doing it for a while so they don't depress ever again.
I can already tell this early in the game that my results will be VERY GOOD and really looking forward to the final product; I might need a second subcision but that will be for more of fine tunning I would think. I am SO GLAD AND GRATEFUL I found this site and the people who contribute to it.
Hey, I hope you took some 'pre' photos and will share some 'post' procedure photos with us to document your progress. Did you tell Dr. DeSpain that you would be doing the 'suction' method? I can't wait to get back into his office and to have him see, first hand, how much my left cheek improved.
Best wishes to you!
Matt
Just want to add my thoughts to the mix as I just had my third subcision completed last Tuesday (May 8th). A little history of my subcision treatments:
First treatment was approximately one year ago. It was probably the most aggressive treatment and I had swelling for 3 weeks. I thought some scars had completely disappeared because I didn't think I'd be swollen for that long. I used the crevice tool from a dirt devil hand vac for suctioning for approximately 10 days or so. Moderate improvement in a few scars.
Second treatment was in November. I don't think the doctor was as aggressive in this treatment since he was using lasers in conjunction with the subcision. Along with the subcision, I had one of the Fraxel lasers (not sure which one) and Palomar Lux 1540 with Optic xd head treatment. I also did suctioning for 2 weeks or so. Again I had moderate improvement over a 4 month period with definite softening of the scars.
Third treatment was last week. Also had Palomar Laser treatment again in conjunction with subcision. I did not do any suctioning this time. I think without the suctioning, my swelling subsided much sooner as my scars re-appeared this time after 5-6 days whereas the previous treatments took 2 weeks or longer for the scars to re-appear.
My face isn't looking too great at this time as there is still some uneven swelling and texture that makes the scars look worse than before treatment.
As a side note, my doctor remarked before the third treatment that he is definitely seeing softening of the scars (finally) and he even inquired about me coming back for a 3 month update so he can view the progress. He's never asked this before and outside of the 3 subcisions, I've had multiple laser sessions (that weren't very helpful to be honest) with him.
My face was really swollen from this last round of subcision, so I didn't see the craters (scars) re-appear when I started suctioning.
In fact, unlike my previous experiences with subcision, the scars on my left cheek never did re-appear. Praise God!
In the past, the depressions/craters would re-appear to varying depths after the swelling went down and would fill up to various depths over the course of time.
Matt
Ah just checking in with you guys here. Had my subcision with Dr. DeSpain 2 days ago. We did about 25 to 30 scars. I said while I'm here and have the downtime let's go for BROKE! Probably have at least 40 to 50 needle insertions and your right Matt the insertion wounds are healing nice and probably won't be able to tell where they are in a couple weeks. I only see one very small insertion that might turn into a small ice pick type of scar.
Matt, do you have any idea how much business your referring to DeSpain?, you should get a cut of this! lol. They kept on telling me about a person who flew from Minnesota just to have that done there!
I started my suctioning yesterday on a scar that was starting to re-attach itself. I said I seen this song and dance before with lasers and wasn't about to let it depress any more. I'm using a 3 horsepower shop vac with my hand cupped around the nozzle so it doesn't scratch my skin. I don't think to much suction is bad, a hypertrophic scar is a lot easier to correct than a depressed one. Plus hypertropic are a lot less visible to the naked eye.
Overall i think the key for suctioning is to start suctioning before they start to depress and keep doing it for a while so they don't depress ever again.
I can already tell this early in the game that my results will be VERY GOOD and really looking forward to the final product; I might need a second subcision but that will be for more of fine tunning I would think. I am SO GLAD AND GRATEFUL I found this site and the people who contribute to it.
Hey, I hope you took some 'pre' photos and will share some 'post' procedure photos with us to document your progress. Did you tell Dr. DeSpain that you would be doing the 'suction' method? I can't wait to get back into his office and to have him see, first hand, how much my left cheek improved.
Best wishes to you!
Matt
I did take a lot of before pics and will share the before/after - no doubt, its important to see before and afters b/c a lot of PS's are salesmen. Some of the results are starting to fade but improvement there is. What's weird is my skin/scars looks a lot better in the moring after a nights rest that at 8 in the evening; oil build up, etc.
I didn't specifically tell DeSpain that I was going to suction but told the estetecian (spelling?)
Hi Matt
How many times and how long vacuming your face after subcision? Why you do 3. day after procedure?
Thanks
Damian
Damian:
I believe that I started on Day three with vacuuming my face two or three times a day for two weeks.
I think that the vacuuming did result in my prolonged swelling and bruising, but the dramatic results were well worth the discomfort.
Matt
Just want to add my thoughts to the mix as I just had my third subcision completed last Tuesday (May 8th). A little history of my subcision treatments:
First treatment was approximately one year ago. It was probably the most aggressive treatment and I had swelling for 3 weeks. I thought some scars had completely disappeared because I didn't think I'd be swollen for that long. I used the crevice tool from a dirt devil hand vac for suctioning for approximately 10 days or so. Moderate improvement in a few scars.
Second treatment was in November. I don't think the doctor was as aggressive in this treatment since he was using lasers in conjunction with the subcision. Along with the subcision, I had one of the Fraxel lasers (not sure which one) and Palomar Lux 1540 with Optic xd head treatment. I also did suctioning for 2 weeks or so. Again I had moderate improvement over a 4 month period with definite softening of the scars.
Third treatment was last week. Also had Palomar Laser treatment again in conjunction with subcision. I did not do any suctioning this time. I think without the suctioning, my swelling subsided much sooner as my scars re-appeared this time after 5-6 days whereas the previous treatments took 2 weeks or longer for the scars to re-appear.
My face isn't looking too great at this time as there is still some uneven swelling and texture that makes the scars look worse than before treatment.
As a side note, my doctor remarked before the third treatment that he is definitely seeing softening of the scars (finally) and he even inquired about me coming back for a 3 month update so he can view the progress. He's never asked this before and outside of the 3 subcisions, I've had multiple laser sessions (that weren't very helpful to be honest) with him.
Been 10 days since the Sub and kind of feeling down in the dumps cause all the results I've had pretty much faded. If lasers and sub can't help I don't know what will.
Can only hope it looks better in a few weeks. Geez. The first 2 days looked really good and for some reason I didn't think that was all swelling but afraid it was.
expect your relationship after three or four weeks. I think that your skin condition improves. I keep my fingers crossed for you.
if lasers and sub can't help I will try sub with filler !_
Hi 10yearswiththis,
I'm sorry you didn't get the results you were looking for on the first try. Did you hear the snapping sounds characteristic of the tissue strands breaking? Would you mind posting the before and afters anyway?
Heard plenty of snapping even on the small ones. I will post before after in 30 days but right now the camera isn't showing much improvement. I think I see some improvement in the rear view mirror but that is subjective at best.
Hi 10yearswiththis,
I'm sorry you didn't get the results you were looking for on the first try. Did you hear the snapping sounds characteristic of the tissue strands breaking? Would you mind posting the before and afters anyway?
Heard plenty of snapping even on the small ones. I will post before after in 30 days but right now the camera isn't showing much improvement. I think I see some improvement in the rear view mirror but that is subjective at best.
So hows it going? Did any of the needles leave a mark?
Hi 10yearswiththis,
I'm sorry you didn't get the results you were looking for on the first try. Did you hear the snapping sounds characteristic of the tissue strands breaking? Would you mind posting the before and afters anyway?
Heard plenty of snapping even on the small ones. I will post before after in 30 days but right now the camera isn't showing much improvement. I think I see some improvement in the rear view mirror but that is subjective at best.
So hows it going? Did any of the needles leave a mark?
Its goin. It's been 2 weeks and 4 days since sub. Last week it looked probably little worse than baseline (deeper). This week I think they are starting to fill in, looks better than last thats for sure. Looks much better in morning after nights rest than at 8 pm......no question about that, kinda weird. Some parts of the sub itch every now and then, so I think stuff is still happening.
There is 1 mark (indented) from the needle right above my eye, but it wasn't there last week (indented part) so maybe it will fill in. Stuff is still changing, that I do know.
Matt - do you have some lumps where the sub was in some parts. Can't see it really but you can feel it.
Hi 10yearswiththis,
I'm sorry you didn't get the results you were looking for on the first try. Did you hear the snapping sounds characteristic of the tissue strands breaking? Would you mind posting the before and afters anyway?
Heard plenty of snapping even on the small ones. I will post before after in 30 days but right now the camera isn't showing much improvement. I think I see some improvement in the rear view mirror but that is subjective at best.
So hows it going? Did any of the needles leave a mark?
Its goin. It's been 2 weeks and 4 days since sub. Last week it looked probably little worse than baseline (deeper). This week I think they are starting to fill in, looks better than last thats for sure. Looks much better in morning after nights rest than at 8 pm......no question about that, kinda weird. Some parts of the sub itch every now and then, so I think stuff is still happening.
There is 1 mark (indented) from the needle right above my eye, but it wasn't there last week (indented part) so maybe it will fill in. Stuff is still changing, that I do know.
Matt - do you have some lumps where the sub was in some parts. Can't see it really but you can feel it.
Yes, I did have lumps in some areas where I had subcision for several weeks and then they would subside. I read in one of the scientific journals that this is a sign of injury and sub-dermal healing. So, it is a good sign.
I had a HUGE lump on my left cheek from the last round of subcision that took about six weeks to fully resolve. There had been a fairly deep and large scar there and now it has filled in nicely.
The toughest thing about subcision is that it is not typically an overnight process. As I've mentioned in my previous posts, it's kind of like filling a swimming pool with a garden hose - it takes a long time to see progress.
Consider dermarolling in about a month to keep the collagen development process moving and applying Ester-C topically to your skin. Vitacost has some good and in expensive face creams.
Keep us posted on your progress.
Matt
Consuming alcohol may not be the best thing for your body and probably not the best thing for your complexion. If you have active acne, caffeine may stimulate oil production and more outbreaks. I had a dermatologist who had a lot of experience tell me several years ago about the connection between caramel coloring and cystic acne. Everytime I would drink a Pepsi or Dr. Pepper, I would get at least one cyst within a short period of time.
By the way, I did a 25% TCA peel on Saturday, June 9, 2012. Today marks Day IV and I am having massive peeling.
I've loaded photos into my gallery and I'm maintaining a blog to chronicle my journey.
My skin is coming off in sheets - take a look at my pics. Even my wife was amazed at how much I was peeling.
Hopefully, all of this self-inflicted torture 
will pay off with some additional collagen development.
My face is currently lathered in Aquaphor and sunscreen. Hopefully, the remainder of the peeling will be done in the next 24-48 hours.
http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php/blog/6283/entry-23727-day-4-post-25-tca-peel/
I started this journey in 2009 and I've been amazed at how different treatments have improved the appearance of my scarring: Four rounds of subcision, three Laser Genesis treatments, one Pearl Fractional laser treatment,one TCA CROSS Method treatment, multiple dermaroller sessions, two 25% TCA peels, and multiple 70% Glycolic and Lactic Acid peels.
I've also worked diligently on improving my skin from the INSIDE/OUT. I take a daily multi-vitamin, Vitamin D, COQ10, Resveratrol, Fish Oil (Omega III), and Zinc.
Topically, I use Retin-A (0.10%) and a product from Vitacost containing Ester C, Alpha-Lipoic Acid, and DMAE. I also use Vitamin E oil on my face from time to time. You can't get enough antioxidants.
Finally, I wear sunscreen everyday to protect the collagen that has developed over the past three years.
I want to encourage anyone reading this thread that you, too, can see some type of improvement. Don't expect oversight success - much of my improvement has been i-n-c-r-e-m-e-n-t-a-l and taken weeks, months, or years and multiple modalities to see this type of improvement.
If you aim for nothing, you will hit it everytime (Zig Ziglar). Do your research and do what you feel is the best way to treat your scarring.
Matt
