Mr. Matt thnx so much for informing us about ur journey very much appreciated.. im glad ur getting the results u desire..just a quick question were u ever on accutane before? if so does it effect healing at all? thnx!

 

Yes, I was on Accutane twice. The first time that I went on it, my face exploded with cystic lesions - nose, cheeks, and chin.

The explosion of lesions happened so quickly (within two-three years of starting Accutane) that I paged my Dermatologist on a Saturday asking for help. He said that here was nothing that I could do. This dermatologist, who looked like Pee-Wee Herrman didn't remain my Dermatologist for long.

Unfortunately, all of these cystic lesions left my face very scarred when all was said and done.

Thus, began my quest to find a solution to fix the ravaged mess that my face had become.

I stumbled upon this website several years ago and read about a woman whose sign-on name was 'oursfan'. (ours in French = Bear). I read her thread with interest as she had undergone subcision and had remarkable results.

I waited at least a year after my second round of Accutane before I had subcision and my other procedures done.

Hope this helps.

Matt

thnx alot!!!

Your results look great. Most of my revision success has been due to subcision also.

 

I've loaded photos into my gallery and I'm maintaining a blog to chronicle my journey.

 

 

Damn Matt your day 5 pics looks extra ordinary! I really don't see any scars and if I were you wouln't do anything else. Hopefully you'll frequent the board for a long time to come b/c your experience along with your advice is priceless.

Hi Matt,

How soon after subcision started using Retin A and Vit. C ?

Thank you

I waited a few days before I resume the Retin-A and Vitamin C/Alpha Lipoic Acid/DMAE cream to give my skin a few days to settle down from the subcision.

I'm a firm believer in both of these antioxidants if you can't tell.

Best wishes to you.

Matt

Thank yoy Matt.

Have you got any photos 5 and 6 day after treatment?

 

 

 

Hi 10yearswiththis,

 

I'm sorry you didn't get the results you were looking for on the first try. Did you hear the snapping sounds characteristic of the tissue strands breaking? Would you mind posting the before and afters anyway?

 

 

Heard plenty of snapping even on the small ones. I will post before after in 30 days but right now the camera isn't showing much improvement. I think I see some improvement in the rear view mirror but that is subjective at best.

 

 

So hows it going? Did any of the needles leave a mark?

 

 

Its goin. It's been 2 weeks and 4 days since sub. Last week it looked probably little worse than baseline (deeper). This week I think they are starting to fill in, looks better than last thats for sure. Looks much better in morning after nights rest than at 8 pm......no question about that, kinda weird. Some parts of the sub itch every now and then, so I think stuff is still happening.

 

There is 1 mark (indented) from the needle right above my eye, but it wasn't there last week (indented part) so maybe it will fill in. Stuff is still changing, that I do know.

 

Matt - do you have some lumps where the sub was in some parts. Can't see it really but you can feel it.

 

Hey 10yearswiththis,

How are you? How it looks now ?

Doing good. I think most of the improvement is coming now......4+ weeks after, but too soon to confirm that yet. I'll post pics on this thread in the near future, so stay posted.

Hey Matt, it's me again. I have had done another round of subcision on two of my scars. I actually could be quite happy with the results because in a lot of different positions and light situations in front of the mirror my scars are virtually invisible. But there are always some perspectives where you can't be sure if the scar is still there or not. And this gets me really frustrated because I still don't know if to be happy or not. What's to do? In addition: The treatment is 14 weeks and a half ago. How safe is the current state? Can there still be microswelling? Can the scar still reappear?! Moreover the subcised scars still are red and have bruising. When will this subside? PS: For the case you don't remember or it hasn't been clear to you so far: I applied the suction method.

I'm glad to hear that your scars are less visible now than they were before but sad to hear that you still have bruising.

My experience with the subcision/suction method indicates that you may have prolonged swelling/bruising as a result of the suctioning.

If you think about it, subcision actually creates sub-dermal trauma. The procedure breaks the tethered bands that hold you're epidermis down creating the 'cratered' look and causes sub-dermal bleeding which prompts the skin to start the healing process.

Based upon my experience and what you've written, the suction method can bring about a very positive outcome in terms of the reduction in the appearance of your scarring, but the sub-dermal pockets of blood that it creates tends to prolong the healing/recovery.

That being said, I would do the subcision/suction method all over again when and if I go back for a fifth procedure on my right cheek.

For me, the pain was worth the 'gain'.

I think that time will tell if you have micro-swelling. It's been over six months since my subcision/suction procedure and the results have maintained themselves.

I couldn't be happier with the outcome.

Matt

Hi Matt,

yeah, I think its very likely that the prolonged bruising is due to the suctioning. The other way round this means that the suctioning had to have at least SOME effect whatsoever. Thus this could mean that the suction-procedure has been successful and that the current scar level is probable to be durable because it apparently works. Isnt it so?

But I think the critical phase has to be over after two and a half weeks, dont you? I remember you fearing the same thing after two weeks and things turned out good, didnt you?

Did you apply anything solely on the subcised scars or are nothing but time and the skin itself healing the best?

Or should I need anything more than zinkcremes and a very healthy diet that supplies me with a lot of vitamins?!

Thanks for your expert replies so far and Im looking forward to your next one !

Regards

MB

MB:

I do believe that the suctioning prolongs the recovery phase as it induces additional trauma to the skin. But, from what I can gather, the additional bleeding/bruising/swelling all create a sub-dermal pocket that results in collagen formation as a result of the 'trauma' to the skin.

The suction appears to prevent the bands of scar tissue from reattaching themselves to the epidermis and, based upon the study that I read, this needs to be done during the first two weeks after the subcision procedure while the scar tissue is no longer tethered and bound to the epidermis.

As far as topicals, I am currently using five things and started using them two weeks after my last subcision treatment:

1) Avalon Organics Vitamin C Renewal Refreshing Cleasning Gel - one of my aunts who is in her 80's has an amazing complexion for her age. I asked her what she did to keep her skin looking so healthy and fairly wrinkle free: she said that this was one of the products that she uses everyday to wash her face. Great product and less than $10 if you shop around.

2) Reviva Labs 'Alpha Lipoic Acid Vitamin C & DMAE Cream. Less than $10 at Vitacost.com. I was sceptical when I first read the reviews, but I bought the cream and started using it. Folks, the DMAE in this cream helps to tighten your skin and helps to minimize the appearance of your acne scars. The Ester C and Alpha Lipoic Acid are supposed to be good for acne scar remodeling.

3) Retin-A 0.1% (prescription) - I highly recommend this for superficial collagen development. Take a look at my baseline photo in my gallery and then after my procedures and using Retin-A. My complexion looks so much healthier.

4) Vitamin E oil - I purchase this from Trader Joe's for under $6.00 a bottle. Don't use this if you still have acne; it can clog your pores. Vitamin E is a powerful antioxidant and helps reduce oxidative damage to your skin.

5) St. Ives Apricot Scrub - you can buy this for less than $5.00 at most stores. This is great for exfoliation and I've read that it helps with collagen development.

I also wear sunscreen seven days a week. I am going to protect my 'investment' and don't want the UVA/UVB rays from the sun destroying the delicate collagen I've worked so hard to develop through all of these procedures (subcision, laser, TCA Cross, peels, etc.)

As far as diet is concerned, I believe that what we eat definitely affects how we look and feel. Foods that are rich in antixidants and vitamin A, C, D, and E are all good for your complexion. Consuming olive and coconut oils are also good for your complexion assuming that you are past getting acne lesions/cysts.

I'm learning how important it is to care for our skin from the Inside/Out.

I saw my younger brother and his wife a few weeks ago and she said that she wanted to see my dermatologist because she could see how much he had done to improve my complexion - she doesn't have any scarring just loss of collagen due to the aging process.

I'm going to dermaroll tonight before I go to bed and I do this every four to six weeks and plan on resuming 70% glycolic and lactic acid peels in about a month. I just did a 25% TCA peel and want to give my skin a bit of a break before doing another peel.

Hopefully, this information was helpful to you. We can all learn from one another and I hope that you'll post pre and post photos for the other folks who read these threads.

Matt

hey mr. matt. from your expereince do you theink sbubsicon can improve my scars?

You appear to have some icepick and boxcar scars, but I would check with a dermatologist if I were you to get an expert opinion.

Your scarring doesn't appear to be super deep, so it may respond well to whatever treatment your doctor proposes would be right for your condition. TCA CROSS for the icepick scars?

Dermarolling might also be beneficial.

Mr Matt just some last questions:

Do you think it would be beneficial to help inducing the collagen production by applying a peeling topically (only on the scar itself) even if its still healing?!

Or is there any other way to annoy the scar or is this not to be recommended as its too dangerous and might cause a depression again (I mean its still a wound..)?

And secondly how did you start doing these peelings? Did you just buy them via the web? Did you let your skin get used to them by applying weaker peelings first? Or did you start with the strong peelings straight off? What other tips are there?

Thanks in advance and for your last reply !

Regards

MB

MB:

Question: Do you think it would be beneficial to help inducing the collagen production by applying a peeling topically (only on the scar itself) even if it´s still healing?!

Answer: I would wait at least six weeks after your last subcision treatment before attempting anything new to your skin. It takes about 42 days for the skin to heal itself after an injury. I think that you'll have better results if you introduce something new step-by-step rather than trying to do everything at one time. Gradually introducing a new process/procedure/topical might be best.

Question: Or is there any other way to annoy the scar or is this not to be recommended as it´s too dangerous and might cause a depression again (I mean it´s still a wound..)?

Answer: You certainly don't wmt to aggravate your skin while it is trying to heal and causes additional swelling/bruising/redness by doing a chemical peel or dermarolling too soon. Slow and steady wins the race.

Question: And secondly how did you start doing these peelings? Did you just buy them via the web? Did you let your skin get used to them by applying weaker peelings first? Or did you start with the strong peelings straight off? What other tips are there?

Answer: I had my first glycolic acid peel done professionally many years ago in a dermatologist's office. Unfortunately, I did not peel, but it did help make my skin soft which was not my goal at all. It helped to clear up some acne that I had at the time.

I scoured this website to learn more about chemical peels and I ended up buingy a 70% glycolic acid online through Amazon.com. Because I didn't peel from the peel I mentioned earlier in my dermatologist's office, I bought the most potent strength available.

However, I did something really dumb - I didn't prep my skin well and applied it to my face one night during the work week. My face began to swell and oozed clear liquid for hours. I went to work the next day looking somewhat like a napalm victim.

Needless to say, I never did that again. I purchased a weaker solution and began to work myself back up from there. I typically do a 70% glycolic or lactic acid peel on a Friday night and most of my peeling is done by Sunday with some mild redness left on Monday. The lactic acid peels don't really peel my skin like the glycolic acid ones do, but they are apparently very good at moisturizing your skin and creating collagen.

I've read that you should prep your skin by getting a prescription for Retin-A since this is an exfoliant but not a very strong one. It helps with cellular repair/regeneration and it's a good way to prepare your skin for a chemical peel.

You may have read that I have now done two 25% TCA peels. The TCA peels have been the most effective at causing a medium peel while the glycolic and lactic acid peels have been effective for lighter peels.

If you are new to peels, I would start with a weaker lactic acid peel and move up to a stronger solution and then finally move onto glycolic acid peels and then onto TCA peels. One more important thing that I have learned about peels: use an astringent to remove any surface oils from your skin. When I do this, I have a much more effective peel. This was a key learning for me.

Based my experience, all of the various procedures that I have had done to my skin have had a synergistic result - meaning that they work together to help produce collagen and fill in the cratered areas. The chemical peels work externally to induce a surface injury which, in turn, creates a response to the injury which creates collagen.

Proper nutrition is also important - you'll need Zinc to help your skin repair itself and Vitamins C and A to help with the collagen development, too.

Hope this helps.

Matt

Hi Matt !

What about massage after subcision ?

I assume that you're referring to facial massage. I'm not aware of any medical studies out there that indicate that it helps with acne scar revision.

However, I've read that massage in general helps with blood and lymphatic flow, so it might be good for your skin.

I'm just not very familiar with that approach for acne scar revision, though.

matt what is the price on getting a subsicion done ?

I paid $400 for my last session. Well worth the money!

I hope that you can find a doctor who performs this.

wow no kidding ...can you explain the process ? where did u have yours done? hey do you think a chemical pill would help me from the other topic and any recommendations thanks!

Here is subcision in a nutshell:

1) Nurse cleans your face with an antiseptic lotion

2) Doctor marks your scars

3) Doctor injects your face with anesthesia (the most painful part of subcision)

4) Doctor inserts Nokor needle and fans it back in forth to break up the fibrous tissue holding down your epidermis

5) Doctor inserts need from various angles to undermine the scar tissue

6) Nurse applies pressure and ice to your face to minimize bleeding

7) Doctor/Nurse wraps your face with pressure bandages

8) You go home looking like a mummy and hoping for the best

You may need a series of subcision treatments to see the type of results you're looking for.

I went to www.columbiaderm.com and had all of my acne scar revision procedures done there with the exception of the chemical peels.

Yes, I think that you might benefit from a series of chemical peels. Keep in mind that they won't fill in deep cratered areas, but they will help with any hyperpigmentation and actually develop collagen within your epidermis.

Get into the habit of wearing sunscreen everyday to protect the collagen that you have in your face and to prevent further damage.

Hope this helps.

yeah my skin is really textured/rough with some hard bumps that i have no idea is ...any recommendations for what kind of pill? and is there a way to track down derms that do subcision?

hey mr. matt, just came here to thank you a ton. You have been a wealth of information. Your persistence and patience in treating acne scars has truly paid off. I'm happy for you.