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Hi Doc,
I was just wondering, what's the worst possible outcome in terms of having redness due to blood injection should the procedure not be done correctly or not perfectly? Will one have a red spot for months?
I've never seen a haematoma from a blood injection last for months. However I caution you to try the procedure on just a single scar in order to evaluate how your skin reacts. Some people will not have residual redness 10-15 days after the injection, others may take a little longer. Other than that I have never encountered any problems from blood injections. After all, it's autologous (your blood so your body will certainly not reject it). As I've said before, the one thing that I am very careful about is to inject the blood into the scar(s) right after I've extracted it from a patient's vein. I do this because if I accidentally inject coagulated blood into a blood vessel then there can be complications such as a bloodclot. However, when the protocol I've provided is followed the procedure is VERY safe. A proficient yet careful doctor will be able to inject three to four scars in the span of three-four minutes which is the time I use before I extract more fresh blood in order to continue injecting other scars. Nonetheless, everyone's blood coagulates at a different rate. Those that consume hefty amounts of blood thinners (ie: Omega 3 supplements) will have slow blood coagulation... Others may have relatively fast coagulation rates. I take all factors into account before commencing treatment.
When all is said and done I want to make one thing clear. There is no safer dermal filler than blood. However, as with everything else one must be disciplined enough to adhere to a strict methodological protocol.
I will definately be trying this out in a month's time on one spot. What will be the expected maximu result one can achieve using blood injections? Is there a limit on how much one can do them?
i don't know what is the mW output per cm2 or the total surface area of this lightstim.
it has 72 high output of amber, red, and infrared LED with a varying wavelengths of 600 and 900nm with an output of 9000mW.
here is the website:
lightstim.com/anti-aging-light.html
hi Bulgarian R. Dermatologistis lightstim anti-aging light good for stimulating collagen and reducing old acne red marks?
it has amber, red and infrared leds with a total output of 9000 mW.
Hi simon17777,
I'm not familiar with lightstim. Do you have information about mW output per cm2? Otherwise if you could give me the total surface area of LED applicator we'll be able to compute the per cm output using the total output figure you provided in your post. One other thing, what are the exact wavelengths of each of the three types of LEDs that they use? This is important because there are studies that show some wavelengths create peak histological responses. If however the wavelength is off from the optimum range by even 20-30nm the result can be counterproductive.
i don't know what is the mW output per cm2 or the total surface area of this lightstim.
it has 72 high output of amber, red, and infrared LED with a varying wavelengths of 600 and 900nm with an output of 9000mW.
here is the website:
lightstim.com/anti-aging-light.html
yes and you pay $329 for 76 total LED and Where I got mine was half that price with a total of 96 LED of half IR 880mw and red LED 660mW
HEY BRD in reference to the blood injection the CARBOXY allows your own blood to start flowing to the scarred area so this sounds even better because you won't have to worry about drawing the blood. The Carboxy uses a 30G needle which I'm sure you might had to use a bigger guage just to inject the blood into the scar
Not to be a buzzkill, but after looking at the before & after pictures from one of the articles BRD referenced (Blood transfer: The use of autologous blood as a chromophore and tissue augmentation agent), this procedure doesn't seem especially effective. I honestly could not tell the difference between the before and after photos in any of the 5 cases, and most of the scarring was EXTREMELY shallow by acne.org standards.
BRD seems genuine, but people might want to check out that article before they spend hundreds on equipment and risking infection or worse from self-injection.
In my experience blood injections have proven to be an effective and inexpensive method when treating various atrophied/irregular skin topographies. It's a histological fact that ECM grows within the haematoma produced by the said injection. Blood is also an autologous substance that will not harm the local tissue in any manner. Simply said, as blood coagulates various GF/IL/CK signals are released that trick the body into thinking there is a dermal ECM injury that needs repair.
On the other hand, you are right that most official studies do not showcase the full benefit of various treatments as they are usually short-term in nature. One of the studies I referenced (which you examined) is no exception.
However, when the treatment is done cyclically as I have outlined with the combination of LED photobiomodulation, the results are evident and impressive. In fact, the results are powerful and surprisingly uplifting when compared to much more expensive and indeed dangerous methods employed by old-fashioned and conservative practitioners.
I have also stated that I do not encourage scar sufferers to do this treatment on themselves, because most do not have medical experience. Even so, this is a far safer procedure than those already attempted by many people on acne.org... It is also one of the three primary autologous filler methods that I use regularly to achieve skin flattening. As stated:
1) Autologous fat transfer is the most expensive and most effective in contouring damaged skin with significant areas of tissue atrophy/necrosis. One proper treatment is often sufficient and permenant.
2) Autologous collagen injections are also expensive and I usually use it as a more precise rolling and/or boxcar filler in addition to the fat transfer. A single treatment is often enough.
3) Autologous blood injections are very inexpensive, permenant and very precise, although they require more treatments that are done according to a predermined schedule that includes daily at home photobiomodulation treatments until the desired skin flattening is achieved.
Anyway, your input is important and everyone should take note. Every procedure has advantages and disadvantages, however the ones I have described are in my opinion the safest and most effective.
In my experience blood injections have proven to be an effective and inexpensive method when treating various atrophied/irregular skin topographies. It's a histological fact that ECM grows within the haematoma produced by the said injection. Blood is also an autologous substance that will not harm the local tissue in any manner. Simply said, as blood coagulates various GF/IL/CK signals are released that trick the body into thinking there is a dermal ECM injury that needs repair.
On the other hand, you are right that most official studies do not showcase the full benefit of various treatments as they are usually short-term in nature. One of the studies I referenced (which you examined) is no exception.
However, when the treatment is done cyclically as I have outlined with the combination of LED photobiomodulation, the results are evident and impressive. In fact, the results are powerful and surprisingly uplifting when compared to much more expensive and indeed dangerous methods employed by old-fashioned and conservative practitioners.
I have also stated that I do not encourage scar sufferers to do this treatment on themselves, because most do not have medical experience. Even so, this is a far safer procedure than those already attempted by many people on acne.org... It is also one of the three primary autologous filler methods that I use regularly to achieve skin flattening. As stated:
1) Autologous fat transfer is the most expensive and most effective in contouring damaged skin with significant areas of tissue atrophy/necrosis. One proper treatment is often sufficient and permenant.
2) Autologous collagen injections are also expensive and I usually use it as a more precise rolling and/or boxcar filler in addition to the fat transfer. A single treatment is often enough.
3) Autologous blood injections are very inexpensive, permenant and very precise, although they require more treatments that are done according to a predermined schedule that includes daily at home photobiomodulation treatments until the desired skin flattening is achieved.
Anyway, your input is important and everyone should take note. Every procedure has advantages and disadvantages, however the ones I have described are in my opinion the safest and most effective.
In my experience blood injections have proven to be an effective and inexpensive method when treating various atrophied/irregular skin topographies. It's a histological fact that ECM grows within the haematoma produced by the said injection. Blood is also an autologous substance that will not harm the local tissue in any manner. Simply said, as blood coagulates various GF/IL/CK signals are released that trick the body into thinking there is a dermal ECM injury that needs repair.
On the other hand, you are right that most official studies do not showcase the full benefit of various treatments as they are usually short-term in nature. One of the studies I referenced (which you examined) is no exception.
However, when the treatment is done cyclically as I have outlined with the combination of LED photobiomodulation, the results are evident and impressive. In fact, the results are powerful and surprisingly uplifting when compared to much more expensive and indeed dangerous methods employed by old-fashioned and conservative practitioners.
I have also stated that I do not encourage scar sufferers to do this treatment on themselves, because most do not have medical experience. Even so, this is a far safer procedure than those already attempted by many people on acne.org... It is also one of the three primary autologous filler methods that I use regularly to achieve skin flattening. As stated:
1) Autologous fat transfer is the most expensive and most effective in contouring damaged skin with significant areas of tissue atrophy/necrosis. One proper treatment is often sufficient and permenant.
2) Autologous collagen injections are also expensive and I usually use it as a more precise rolling and/or boxcar filler in addition to the fat transfer. A single treatment is often enough.
3) Autologous blood injections are very inexpensive, permenant and very precise, although they require more treatments that are done according to a predermined schedule that includes daily at home photobiomodulation treatments until the desired skin flattening is achieved.
Anyway, your input is important and everyone should take note. Every procedure has advantages and disadvantages, however the ones I have described are in my opinion the safest and most effective.
Hey Bulg Derm
Glad to see your still around. Anyway with blood transfer you refer to skin flattening are you referring to raised scars or can it be used to slightly elevate depressed skin?
thanks for your input
hi,
I've seen two doctors today. the first one offered fractional laser. the second one is a prominent, internationally renowened plastic surgeon.
the plastic surgeon recommended 3 sessions of N-lite and autologous blood injection in to my three relatively deep scars. one of them is a shallow ice pick, the other two scars are shallow boxcar scars. he said the percentage of improvement depends. he said one of his patients had zero improvement, but another one had 70% improvement. He also added it is better to have autologous blood injection in your 20s. Because the blood will contain much more protein and growth factors, but this doesn't mean that u can not have it in your 30s or 50s. It is used to correct wrinkles at 30s, 40s etc. What he meant that it is better to have it for acne scars in your 20s. He said it is a new technique and generally not applied. as far as I understood it is an easy procedure. he said it would cost 750 euro per session. you can have it once or more. It depends on you and your scars. this technique is called plasma.
Is there anyone who had this procedure? Af yes, what is the average percentage of improvement?
the assistant of the surgeon said the average improvement is 30%. Isn't it a low percentage.
Hey Bulg DermGlad to see your still around. Anyway with blood transfer you refer to skin flattening are you referring to raised scars or can it be used to slightly elevate depressed skin?
thanks for your input
Hi Havingfaith,
With blood transfer I'm referring to the elevation of depressed skin. The idea is to allow the blood to stimulate ECM growth in the area of the injection where the skin was atrophied from past acne.
BRD
Hi Bulgarian R. Dermatologist,what are your opinions regarding dermaroller and TCA Cross?
which treatment is more effective for boxscars and rolling scars?
Hi simon1777,
The dermaroller can be effective, although it isn't wise to use a roller with needles that are more than 2mm in length. One also has to be careful how they use the roller, as improper technique could result in small line scars. It's also important to always check whether the roller's needles are straight. That's why getting high quality rollers is the only way to go.
On the other hand I personally don't like using TCA, be it as a peel and/or for the cross technique. I'm basically not a fan of acids, unless they are mild, because I think there are too many variables that can't be controlled when using them.
Best of luck,
BRD
hi,I've seen two doctors today. the first one offered fractional laser. the second one is a prominent, internationally renowened plastic surgeon.
the plastic surgeon recommended 3 sessions of N-lite and autologous blood injection in to my three relatively deep scars. one of them is a shallow ice pick, the other two scars are shallow boxcar scars. he said the percentage of improvement depends. he said one of his patients had zero improvement, but another one had 70% improvement. He also added it is better to have autologous blood injection in your 20s. Because the blood will contain much more protein and growth factors, but this doesn't mean that u can not have it in your 30s or 50s. It is used to correct wrinkles at 30s, 40s etc. What he meant that it is better to have it for acne scars in your 20s. He said it is a new technique and generally not applied. as far as I understood it is an easy procedure. he said it would cost 750 euro per session. you can have it once or more. It depends on you and your scars. this technique is called plasma.
Is there anyone who had this procedure? if yes, what is the average percentage of improvement?
the assistant of the surgeon said the average improvement is 30%. Isn't it a low percentage.
I'm glad the plastic surgeon you met mentioned the autologous blood injections. Sometimes I feel people think I'm crazy when I suggest that something so simple could help them.
Anyway, his price seems a little high considering the fact that your blood costs him nothing, but on the other hand I think he may be processing your blood and then using only its serum plasma component for the injections. That makes the procedure a bit more complex, but not by much. One basically needs a small/portable centrifuge to do this. Anyway, is your N-lite included in that price?
hi,I've seen two doctors today. the first one offered fractional laser. the second one is a prominent, internationally renowened plastic surgeon.
the plastic surgeon recommended 3 sessions of N-lite and autologous blood injection in to my three relatively deep scars. one of them is a shallow ice pick, the other two scars are shallow boxcar scars. he said the percentage of improvement depends. he said one of his patients had zero improvement, but another one had 70% improvement. He also added it is better to have autologous blood injection in your 20s. Because the blood will contain much more protein and growth factors, but this doesn't mean that u can not have it in your 30s or 50s. It is used to correct wrinkles at 30s, 40s etc. What he meant that it is better to have it for acne scars in your 20s. He said it is a new technique and generally not applied. as far as I understood it is an easy procedure. he said it would cost 750 euro per session. you can have it once or more. It depends on you and your scars. this technique is called plasma.
Is there anyone who had this procedure? ±f yes, what is the average percentage of improvement?
the assistant of the surgeon said the average improvement is 30%. Isn't it a low percentage.
I'm glad the plastic surgeon you met mentioned the autologous blood injections. Sometimes I feel people think I'm crazy when I suggest that something so simple could help them.
Anyway, his price seems a little high considering the fact that your blood costs him nothing, but on the other hand I think he may be processing your blood and then using only its serum plasma component for the injections. That makes the procedure a bit more complex, but not by much. One basically needs a small/portable centrifuge to do this. Anyway, is your N-lite included in that price?
thank you for your reply. I really wonder what you think about this.
He will process the blood. I think he will differentiate the protein, growth factors etc. then inject it into the scars.
N-lite is not included in the price. Each N lite session will cost 200-250 euro. The cost is not important. I just want to get rid of these scars. Since I had two sessons of chemical peeling last winter he said I should not have fractional laser which the first doctor recommended. What do you think of the N lite and blood transfer combination. Does N lite help with superficial scars and relatively deeper scars? will blood transfer improve the scars? Is it permanent or do I have to repeat the procedure on a regular basis? What do you think of fractional, is it more beneficial?
I know I have asked many questions 
your answer will be highly appreciated. thank you in advance.
Greetings BRD
I have been using a gel called Solcoceryl (made from haemodylisate of calves blood) on my red and depressed scars and it somewhat has a cooling, calming, firming, pore reducing effect on my skin. Have also been using it under make up as cosmetic since it seems to "fill" my ice-picks nicely (although temporarily), I know without any sort of wound deliberately administered on the skin this may not be effective, but I'm just wondering if it should have any effect at all on reducing the appearance of the icepick/depressed/rolling scars with prolonged use? This stuff is prescribed for burns btw (but you probably already knew that), also will there be any adverse effects with prolonged use?
Thanking you in advance for your response.
Hi Dr. B.R.D.,
Thanks for taking time to share your knowledge with everyone. The new autologous options for scar treatment seem to offer the best outcomes with the least risk (that is if one has a competent practitioner).
I have a couple of questions I'm hoping you can answer:
First, you had mentioned previously to prep the face with medical grade ethyl OH but I can't seem to find any to purchase online. I'm wondering if you or anyone else on the boards knows where to purchase....?
Second, I watched the video of the Japanese Dr. and am concerned about breaking up scar tissue. Can scar tissue only be broken with the technique the Dr. in the video used or can someone massage the skin externally or use dermaroller to break up scar tissue?
Next, the video stressed the importance of injecting below (?) scar tissue or at least where scar tissue has been broken. Is there any way to know that you're injecting correctly without fiber optic technology?
Also, can you over-inject blood and end up with a lump??
LAST! I'm wondering if you have any information on how to treat hyperpigmentation that seems to be resistant to everything. The only treatment I've had that seemed as though it might work is IPL which I had once and then moved from the esthetician who performed the procedure. I'm extremely weary about going to anyone else as I know that many practitioners make skin conditions worse and I have had this experience a couple times (and have only seen a handful of practitioners). Do you think dermarolling would help? If, so, what kind of topical would you recommend? Also, I have olive complextion and hyperpigment from everything/rarely burn. In your experience, does dermarolling cause hyperpigmentation on olive skin?
Thanks!
Sophia
I'm with Sophia,
I have read through the entire thread several times, but I still have a few unanswered questions.
I have a friend who's mom is a nurse and she's agreed to help me draw my blood and I'm actually going to have my mom perform the procedure, but I will need to know a few things.
1. Where in the scar are you suppose to pinch and inject? The middle? The perimeter? Or everywhere possible?
2. The syringe is suppose to act as a needle to break scar tissue?
3. How deep are you suppose to go before injection? I know you mentioned that injection should be at different depths, but how deep is the least and most you should go?
4. How much blood should be injected?
What do you recommend to needle with?
Ken
Also, are there syringes you can use to draw blood and inject immediately with or is that possible with all syringes?
Hi Roller,
You can get the syringes at the pharmacy. Just ask for the ones diabetics use. I think that might be the only kind they sell to consumers but unsure... You also have to know the gauge of the needle. i read somewhere that you shouldn't dermarole with a diameter greater than .25 mm or you will cause scarring. Don't know if that is true or not though. If a syringe needle comes that small, the blood could be difficult to push through as time passes from when you draw the blood b/c it will be coagulating more and more as time passes....
Sophia
Greetings BRD
I have been using a gel called Solcoceryl (made from haemodylisate of calves blood) on my red and depressed scars and it somewhat has a cooling, calming, firming, pore reducing effect on my skin. Have also been using it under make up as cosmetic since it seems to "fill" my ice-picks nicely (although temporarily), I know without any sort of wound deliberately administered on the skin this may not be effective, but I'm just wondering if it should have any effect at all on reducing the appearance of the icepick/depressed/rolling scars with prolonged use? This stuff is prescribed for burns btw (but you probably already knew that), also will there be any adverse effects with prolonged use?
Thanking you in advance for your response.
Hi ponytail,
I haven't used Solcoceryl, but from what I know it can be quite good for the skin. Here's a quote from a study done at the Al Babtain Centre for Plastic Surgery and Burns in Kuwait.
" Solcoseryl10 is a chemically and biologically standardized protein free nonantigenic and noripyrogenie dialysate of blood from healthy veal calves. It contains a broad spectrum of low molecular organic and inorganic substances which help in wound healing by normalizing metabolic disturbances and tissue damage associated with stress injury and hypoxia. The action of Solcoseryl increases oxygen uptake by cells, stimulates ATP synthesis, improves glucose transport, stimulates collagen formation, and promotes angiogenesis. Solcoseryl has a capacity to speed up the return of reversibly damaged cells to their normal state by growth-factor-like activity and cytoprotective effects."
I think that Solcoseryl would be especially effective after doing any of the scar revision techniques that involve wounding the dermis. So for people who do light peels, or any of the popular laser procedures, this topical would definitely help heal/recover their skin more uniformly and with less scarring. In other words, Solcoseyl would likely increase the chance that such a procedure is a success. However my recommendation to you is to combine the use of this product with needling as it will help your skin to better absorb it. For example you could use a 0.75mm - 1mm derma roller while applying the Solcoseryl just before and right after the needle rolling. That would be a much better way of remodelling your skin topography than simply using this product as a standalone treatment for your hypotrophic scars.
Best wishes...
Hi Dr. B.R.D.,
Thanks for taking time to share your knowledge with everyone. The new autologous options for scar treatment seem to offer the best outcomes with the least risk (that is if one has a competent practitioner).
I have a couple of questions I'm hoping you can answer:
First, you had mentioned previously to prep the face with medical grade ethyl OH but I can't seem to find any to purchase online. I'm wondering if you or anyone else on the boards knows where to purchase....?
Second, I watched the video of the Japanese Dr. and am concerned about breaking up scar tissue. Can scar tissue only be broken with the technique the Dr. in the video used or can someone massage the skin externally or use dermaroller to break up scar tissue?
Next, the video stressed the importance of injecting below (?) scar tissue or at least where scar tissue has been broken. Is there any way to know that you're injecting correctly without fiber optic technology?
Also, can you over-inject blood and end up with a lump??
LAST! I'm wondering if you have any information on how to treat hyperpigmentation that seems to be resistant to everything. The only treatment I've had that seemed as though it might work is IPL which I had once and then moved from the esthetician who performed the procedure. I'm extremely weary about going to anyone else as I know that many practitioners make skin conditions worse and I have had this experience a couple times (and have only seen a handful of practitioners). Do you think dermarolling would help? If, so, what kind of topical would you recommend? Also, I have olive complextion and hyperpigment from everything/rarely burn. In your experience, does dermarolling cause hyperpigmentation on olive skin?
Thanks!
Sophia
Hi Sophia,
Here are the answers to your questions:
1) If you can't find ethyl alcohol, you should be able to instead get iodine tincture, which is composed of iodine, potassium iodide and ethyl alcohol. Actually, I recommend iodine as it helps to heal wounds. There is some evidence that it not only works as a disinfectant, but also as a skin regenerative agent. I'm conducting an experiment using iodine and medical grade DMSO at the moment and I should have results in a month or two. I'll post about this when the results are in. However, iodine does stain the skin for a day or two, so don't get too worried if you skin looks darker where the iodine was applied. It will also sting a bit and will peel the skin if a lot of iodine was applied. All in all, that's nothing to worry about (the biochemical peeling effect is different from that produced by an acid) and I find the skin is smoother after an iodine peel. Basically put a little on your face before the procedure and a little right after. Then leave it be... Thus the best thing to do is perform the procedure on a Friday and stay home for the weekend. You should however not expect the haematomas (bruising) at your injection site to dissipate in a day or two. I find it generally takes about a week.
2) In order to break the scar tissue, one has to use a needle that's placed at a near horizontal angle (parallel to the dermal surface yet 1-2 mm beneath) inside the skin at the hypotrophic scar site. The needle is used in a back and forth motion in combination with left and right movements that pivot at the needle skin penetration point. This is basically a form of subcision. I don't recommend you try this yourself unless you're trained to do so. Also note that you will have to use at least a 29 gauge needle for this procedure, as anything thinner can bend/break quite easily.
3) There is a way to know where to inject, but it's more of a feel one develops after performing the procedure many times over. After I subcize a scar I basically know that I've created a pocket in the tissue. I then carefuly inject within this pocket and I do this from various angles at slightly different depths. It's more of an art than a scientific skill. Also with autologous blood you can over inject as the resultant bump will be reabsorbed. Remember, the blood injections will not give you permenant and perfect results the first time you perform the procedure. It will simply improve the depth of your scar. With every repeated injection however (after healing has finished from previous injections) the scar depth will continue to improve.
4) For hyperpigmentation I recommend you get yourself a personal LED system. I've discussed the specs for these systems a few times before so please look at my previous posts for more information.
Best of luck...
I'm with Sophia,
I have read through the entire thread several times, but I still have a few unanswered questions.
I have a friend who's mom is a nurse and she's agreed to help me draw my blood and I'm actually going to have my mom perform the procedure, but I will need to know a few things.
1. Where in the scar are you suppose to pinch and inject? The middle? The perimeter? Or everywhere possible?
2. The syringe is suppose to act as a needle to break scar tissue?
3. How deep are you suppose to go before injection? I know you mentioned that injection should be at different depths, but how deep is the least and most you should go?
4. How much blood should be injected?
What do you recommend to needle with?
Ken
Hi Roller,
1) I usually inject from the perimeter at an angle so that when the needle is a few mm into the skin it will be directly beneath the atrophied scar. I then do the forward/backward and left/right motions I described in the post above. This has to be done carefully and slowly. The said motions will basically have to go under the atrophied skin in the shape of the defect itself. It is as though you are painting the scar with a needle, except your 'paintbrush' is inside the skin.
2) Yes... Gauge 29 or thicker.
3) Well, this is difficult to answer because we're talking mm differences. One must visualize this in a very precise manner. I try not to inject more than 2mm beneath the skin, because I do my best to avoid nerves.
4) It all depends on the scar(s). 1 cc of blood will usually be enough for anywhere between 10 - 20 scars.
All the best...