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bullshit, if this method truly offered results everyone would be doing it. hogwash.
I was eating my breakfast reading through this thread when I came across this post. I almost spit up my coffee. I just knew this had to be posted by Naitch, and sure enough it was. If you look through my silicone thread this guy hasn't offered even a morsel of positivity, let alone had a nice thing to say too anyone. In my thread he claims Im a doctor trying to make $$, also said I am lying about my results and am blowing smoke up peoples ass.
Then to make matters even more hilarious, he posts about getting nosejobs, heating up acne so on and so on. I as well as Bulg derm are here to help everyone as much as the other guy, but this guy can be compared to Ebeneezer Scrooge. Talk about a downer when trying to help people by spending quality time typing out these threads.
Sorry , back on topic.
Hey Drewboy,
I know it can be frustrating when people communicate in an overly critical way. I get frustrated too. The thing is we all know what it's like to have to deal with acne scars and sometimes one just can't help but be angry. I talked to Naitch over PM and he is actually a very good guy. If you're up to it, I suggest you PM him. We're all very similar here because we share something very powerful and sometimes I forget what it was like living as teen with bad acne, followed by living as an adult with terrible acne scarring.
That said, WE have to completely eliminate acne scars because otherwise they have a very negative impact on a person's physical and psychological wellbeing. And we are close to beating them. As I've said before, we're going to win this war and the hard times that people have endured will only translate into making them kinder, stronger and indeed truly extraordinary people. Once the scars are wiped off the 'face' of the earth, all the former sufferers will look back on their ordeal as a gift. A gift that made them more aware of the beauty that is life than all those non-sufferers who were fed with silver spoons by way of their genetic bliss.
Best wishes... 
this senseless "encouraging" drivel doesn't work for any type of acne scar.
sry for my raw tone but we're all desperate and want to see results. i'm not here to read something like "once there is a solution", "in the future you'll have a healthy skin"..once once once..what's all this fuss about???
this senseless "encouraging" drivel doesn't work for any type of acne scar.sry for my raw tone but we're all desperate and want to see results. i'm not here to read something like "once there is a solution", "in the future you'll have a healthy skin"..once once once..what's all this fuss about???
Maybe you should read the entire thread before you post. Otherwise you're bound to come up with a very uninformed statement as you did above. Also, I'm not here to write according to your likes and dislikes. I've spent countless hours helping people who are in need of help. If you on the other hand believe what I have written thus far is "senseless drivel" then by all means don't come looking for answers to your problems in this thread. Regards...
everybody here who has deeper scarring have spent countless hours on this board. we're all desperate 'cause there isn't any method which is working for deeper acne scarring. i've deeper icepick and some rolling scars. show me one, only one, case which was succsessful in treating deeper acne scarring. i demand only one case. can you fulfill my desire? i don't think so.
don't get me wrong, i've a lot respect for you. but i've met so many doctors who have promised me they would heal deeper acne scars. but finally i had to accept that nothing works for deep scarring. they can't show me any case which was succsessful in healing scarring. so if you can show me only one case all my accusations will vanish into thin air.
Question for Bulgarian Derm, Are the results of blood/saline injection permanent? Do they help with redness in the scars?
I have never talked about saline injections. Blood injections have nothing in common with saline injections.
Saline injections are largely ineffective in my opinion.
Blood injections on the other hand are effective because:
1) The blood has some extraordinary histological properties that stimulate ECM repair upon haematoma formation. See the first page of this thread for detailed information.
2) The haematoma acts a chromophore for red and infrared LED light. This heats up the area of injection more and stimulates a targeted response on the part of fibroblasts. The said LED light also stimulates a host of other cells that contribute to the ECM remodelling process to function more effectively. Utilizing light therapy after a blood injection is called the Bastille method.
As for redness, the blood itself can help in the long-term. However it does make the injection site darker in the short-term due to the temporary haematoma formation. Furthermore, the LED is especially effective for eliminating red spots over time. This is primarily due to the fact that specific wavelengths target the red pigment leftover from acne scars.
Question for Bulgarian Derm, Are the results of blood/saline injection permanent? Do they help with redness in the scars?
I have never talked about saline injections. Blood injections have nothing in common with saline injections.
Saline injections are largely ineffective in my opinion.
Blood injections on the other hand are effective because:
1) The blood has some extraordinary histological properties that stimulate ECM repair upon haematoma formation. See the first page of this thread for detailed information.
2) The haematoma acts a chromophore for red and infrared LED light. This heats up the area of injection more and stimulates a targeted response on the part of fibroblasts. The said LED light also stimulates a host of other cells that contribute to the ECM remodelling process to function more effectively. Utilizing light therapy after a blood injection is called the Bastille method.
As for redness, the blood itself can help in the long-term. However it does make the injection site darker in the short-term due to the temporary haematoma formation. Furthermore, the LED is especially effective for eliminating red spots over time. This is primarily due to the fact that specific wavelengths target the red pigment leftover from acne scars.
Why would saline be ineffective? I was told by many that it works really well, better than many of the other treatment types out there. I just want to get your opinion, I'm not really dead set to try neither (but I have access to both).
Saline is ineffective in my experience. I have not had good results with saline.
It should not be compared to blood in any way, form or fashion. I don't know why saline has been mentioned in this thread as having the same effects as blood. After all, saline contains nothing more than water and salt, while blood is a biological solution full of various growth factors and cells that contribute to the healing response that I've described in detail within the first page of this thread. Blood also coagulates to form a haematoma that stimulates ECM repair. Saline can do no such thing. Finally, saline is not pigmented like blood and thus will not be able to absorb as high of a percentage of the LED light when the Bastille method is utilized. For this method to work you have to have blood injected into the scar tissue.
Anyway, this is a thread about blood injections and I don't want people to get them confused with saline injections. The difference between the two is truly like night and day. By all means, try saline injections and see if they work for you. However, please don't confuse the methodologies I've presented here with something completely unrelated.
Best wishes.
everybody here who has deeper scarring have spent countless hours on this board. we're all desperate 'cause there isn't any method which is working for deeper acne scarring. i've deeper icepick and some rolling scars. show me one, only one, case which was succsessful in treating deeper acne scarring. i demand only one case. can you fulfill my desire? i don't think so.
don't get me wrong, i've a lot respect for you. but i've met so many doctors who have promised me they would heal deeper acne scars. but finally i had to accept that nothing works for deep scarring. they can't show me any case which was succsessful in healing scarring. so if you can show me only one case all my accusations will vanish into thin air.
hehe yeah, that was obviously. no answer 'cause no (succsessful) case.
cheer up
BRD,
Can blood be injected into an icepick scar or is this only for rolling scars? Also, do you think that, if I can't convince my doctor to do this, I could inject my own blood and then go to a skin center and get a laser treatment using a Sciton or other laser?
Thank you,
Jan31
everybody here who has deeper scarring have spent countless hours on this board. we're all desperate 'cause there isn't any method which is working for deeper acne scarring. i've deeper icepick and some rolling scars. show me one, only one, case which was succsessful in treating deeper acne scarring. i demand only one case. can you fulfill my desire? i don't think so.
don't get me wrong, i've a lot respect for you. but i've met so many doctors who have promised me they would heal deeper acne scars. but finally i had to accept that nothing works for deep scarring. they can't show me any case which was succsessful in healing scarring. so if you can show me only one case all my accusations will vanish into thin air.
Emhfali,
I understand that you are suffering from acne scars. Why do you think I've spent upwards of a few hundred hours composing detailed threads/posts over the last few months? I am doing my best to help people, and unlike your doctors I am not getting paid for it. You don't know my name, my practice and/or anything else other than my professional statute, so thereby I am certaily not attracting anyone to come to my office for a consultation followed by an expensive procedure. Most doctors would actually tell me that I am wasting my time here and being counter productive by offering solutions that are inexpensive, effective and easy to perform. Some of my coleagues might never talk to me if they knew I was giving the patient innovative knowledge that can only function to errode the traditionalist/ineffective/dangerous/expensive approach to acne scar treatment. So really I am here because I know I can help and I don't need a monetary reward in order to do that. If I were like those doctors who promised you results if and only if you gave them X-amount of money, then I would leave acne.org and not come back here. So I believe you are very mistaken to feel that I need to prove something to you. I am not here to prove anything, not to you or anyone else for that matter. As I've stated many times before, I am here to give people information...
I also do not respond well to demands. Again, I am taking up a large percentage of my spare time sharing my views and expertise with everyone here. How then can you demand anything of me? I have suffered just like you, but I did not demand anything from those who were willing to help me in return for nothing. Is that clear now? Or will you continue to talk to me as though I am your servant who is obliged to listen to your commands? If that is how you think then I will no longer respond to your posts.
If you are remotely interested in my help, I will be glad to help as long as you communicate with me in a respectful manner. That is the prerequisite, no ifs and buts about it! If your acne scars are truly severe, than I will need to see them before I discuss every option with you. Send me your pictures in a PM and I will workout a treatment plan specifically tailored to your facial topography. Then you'll be able to take the information/knowledge I give you and use it in your search for a doctor in your area who is both willing and capable of implementing my strategies.
BRD,
Can blood be injected into an icepick scar or is this only for rolling scars? Also, do you think that, if I can't convince my doctor to do this, I could inject my own blood and then go to a skin center and get a laser treatment using a Sciton or other laser?
Thank you,
Jan31
Jan31,
Boxcar and rolling scars respond best to this methodology. However, icepicks can be treated as long as the doctor has the eye for detail and the patience to do work with you in an ethical manner. Send me a few photos of you scars. I will then be able to evaluate your facial topography and give you some personalized information that you can then use for your own benefit. Make sure you use the worst lighting you can find.
BRD,
Can blood be injected into an icepick scar or is this only for rolling scars? Also, do you think that, if I can't convince my doctor to do this, I could inject my own blood and then go to a skin center and get a laser treatment using a Sciton or other laser?
Thank you,
Jan31
Jan31,
Boxcar and rolling scars respond best to this methodology. However, icepicks can be treated as long as the doctor has the eye for detail and the patience to do work with you in an ethical manner. Send me a few photos of you scars. I will then be able to evaluate your facial topography and give you some personalized information that you can then use for your own benefit. Make sure you use the worst lighting you can find.
BRD,
Thank you so much for your advise. I appreciate being able to ask you questions and get very detailed, knowledgable answers.
It is a bit shocking to hear you refer to doctors...treating their patient's in an ethical manner. I sometimes feel that you don't have very much respect for the way some of your fellow doctors regard their patients.
Jan31
Okay i must confess that i've overreacted. but it's just very depressing. every morning i've a lot of hope but then i have to see that nothing works good enough for bad acne scarring. on this board here you find much hope in various new procedures. and every little hope will be destroyed by the truth: most of these methods don't work and the doctors only want to rake in money.
hmm but giving up hope is the last thing I would do
Hello BRD,
I want to really thank you for all your posts, I believe you are reputable, patient, and willing to help.
I am interested in injecting my scars with blood. You stated that this "filler can be easily transplanted/injected into a recipient site by just about anyone with a steady hand, discipline and adherence to a maximally sterile (aka: sterilized skin, syringe, etc), yet simple procedural methodology". If we assume that I am such a person and willing to try this on myself, then could I just do the following:
1. Sterilize my arm and obtain a small amount of blood.
2. Instantly inject the blood directly into my (sterile facial) scar
3. Allow the haematoma to form
4. Repeat in 2 to 3 weeks if/after the haematoma has subsided.
I understand you recommend the IPL laser after the treatment but I can not afford it. I've already wasted over 10,000 dollars in peels, dermabrasions, creams, etc. I think I also read that you recommend needling the scar and that the scar should be approached from every direction. Is this true? Should I needle the scar first and then inject the blood? I also watched the youtube video you posted and I believe they used the Bastille technique that you also recommend... I obviously can not use that technique on myself so is injecting blood directly (right in the middle) of the scar advantageous? How deep do you have to go to inject? Finally, can I just apply aquaphor or neosporin afterwards?
I know it is risky and you may not want to condone doing this to oneself but any help is appreciated.
Thanks again.
Hello BRD,
I want to really thank you for all your posts, I believe you are reputable, patient, and willing to help.
I am interested in injecting my scars with blood. You stated that this "filler can be easily transplanted/injected into a recipient site by just about anyone with a steady hand, discipline and adherence to a maximally sterile (aka: sterilized skin, syringe, etc), yet simple procedural methodology". If we assume that I am such a person and willing to try this on myself, then could I just do the following:
1. Sterilize my arm and obtain a small amount of blood.
2. Instantly inject the blood directly into my (sterile facial) scar
3. Allow the haematoma to form
4. Repeat in 2 to 3 weeks if/after the haematoma has subsided.
I understand you recommend the IPL laser after the treatment but I can not afford it. I've already wasted over 10,000 dollars in peels, dermabrasions, creams, etc. I think I also read that you recommend needling the scar and that the scar should be approached from every direction. Is this true? Should I needle the scar first and then inject the blood? I also watched the youtube video you posted and I believe they used the Bastille technique that you also recommend... I obviously can not use that technique on myself so is injecting blood directly (right in the middle) of the scar advantageous? How deep do you have to go to inject? Finally, can I just apply aquaphor or neosporin afterwards?
I know it is risky and you may not want to condone doing this to oneself but any help is appreciated.
Thanks again.
Hi Teamwork,
Thank you for the kind words.
I don't like saying this but yes you could perform this procedure on yourself. I don't recommend it but you seem to have made up your mind so I might as well give you some tips.
Make sure you use medical ethyl alcohol to sterilize yourself. Don't use the non-ethyl acohol (ie: isopropyl) as it is toxic. Also make certain you inject the blood soon after you extract it from a vein. You don't want the blood to coagulate before you inject it. As your injecting, you can over-correct the scar surface a little. Make sure you inject at slightly different depths and angles. Afew minutes after the procedure is done you'll see a haematoma below the surface. Then leave the skin as is...
This leads me to your comment about needling. I have to say that this is good thinking on your part, becasue I hadn't explicitly suggested needling to anyone. Either way, it is useful to needle the scar but only after the haematoma has formed. It is however important to wait approximately 24 hours before you needle. This procedure will be fairly easy because the haematoma will have pigmented the atrophied area of your skin, so you can simply use the pigment to find each and every scar you've injected with blood. As you needle the scar more fresh blood will enter areas of the haematoma that have been punctured. This will drive more fibroblasts, macrophages and PBS cells into the already stimulated area of ECM remodelling. As I say, you can perform this needling procedure about a day after you've done the blood injections.
Anyway, with regard to IPL, you don't actually have to do it. You can instead purchase a personal LED device that emits both red and infrared light. You would be using this device on a daily basis in doses of 4 - 8 joules of light energy per cm2. Make sure you know the mW radiating output of the device before you buy it, because it is imperative you get the dosage I stated above. Perfroming this part of the holistic procedure will in fact imitate the Bastille method of scar revision since the haematoma will act as a chromophore for the LED light. The LED light will also stimulate your fibroblasts, micro blood flow, ATP within the cells, and even such things as localized MMP2 and MMP9 gene upregulation. This will all help with the flattening of the scars.
That said, do this on one scar first and see how it goes. Don't go all out on your face. You have to get some practice before you take the risk of performing the procedure on all of scars. In this way you'll be able to evaluate how your skin reacts to the procedure. You'll also gain confidence using your eyes and hands in such a way as to achieve cosmetic precision.
The only real expense you'll have in order to perform this procedure is purchasing the LED device, medical ethyl alcohol and sterile syringes. That's about $100 - $400 total depending on which product you purchase. Anyway, an acne.org member named wiki has been talking to me about LED treatment and he's about to purchase a device off the net. You can check his thread about LEDs. Just remember, for this procedure to be effective you'll need to incorporate all steps into one.
Best wishes,
BRD
Hi Doc,
I was just wondering, what's the worst possible outcome in terms of having redness due to blood injection should the procedure not be done correctly or not perfectly? Will one have a red spot for months?
I've never seen a haematoma from a blood injection last for months. However I caution you to try the procedure on just a single scar in order to evaluate how your skin reacts. Some people will not have residual redness 10-15 days after the injection, others may take a little longer. Other than that I have never encountered any problems from blood injections. After all, it's autologous (your blood so your body will certainly not reject it). As I've said before, the one thing that I am very careful about is to inject the blood into the scar(s) right after I've extracted it from a patient's vein. I do this because if I accidentally inject coagulated blood into a blood vessel then there can be complications such as a bloodclot. However, when the protocol I've provided is followed the procedure is VERY safe. A proficient yet careful doctor will be able to inject three to four scars in the span of three-four minutes which is the time I use before I extract more fresh blood in order to continue injecting other scars. Nonetheless, everyone's blood coagulates at a different rate. Those that consume hefty amounts of blood thinners (ie: Omega 3 supplements) will have slow blood coagulation... Others may have relatively fast coagulation rates. I take all factors into account before commencing treatment.
When all is said and done I want to make one thing clear. There is no safer dermal filler than blood. However, as with everything else one must be disciplined enough to adhere to a strict methodological protocol.
hi Bulgarian R. Dermatologistis lightstim anti-aging light good for stimulating collagen and reducing old acne red marks?
it has amber, red and infrared leds with a total output of 9000 mW.
Hi simon17777,
I'm not familiar with lightstim. Do you have information about mW output per cm2? Otherwise if you could give me the total surface area of LED applicator we'll be able to compute the per cm output using the total output figure you provided in your post. One other thing, what are the exact wavelengths of each of the three types of LEDs that they use? This is important because there are studies that show some wavelengths create peak histological responses. If however the wavelength is off from the optimum range by even 20-30nm the result can be counterproductive.
That's about $100 - $400 total depending on which product you purchase. Anyway, an acne.org member named wiki has been talking to me about LED treatment and he's about to purchase a device off the net. You can check his thread about LEDs. Just remember, for this procedure to be effective you'll need to incorporate all steps into one.
Best wishes,
BRD
BRD is correct and we spoken on this and I found the cheapest guy i could on LED's. he can make it custom etc. I did mine totaling 96 LED's half of red led and the other half IR LED. The guy sent me the manu. specs which i forwared to BRD and he confirmed that output was really good. It cost me $100. If you guys like I'll tell him if he can do a discounted price for acne .org and show him the DPL and see if he can custom make it like that brand but for a lot less
That's about $100 - $400 total depending on which product you purchase. Anyway, an acne.org member named wiki has been talking to me about LED treatment and he's about to purchase a device off the net. You can check his thread about LEDs. Just remember, for this procedure to be effective you'll need to incorporate all steps into one.
Best wishes,
BRD
BRD is correct and we spoken on this and I found the cheapest guy i could on LED's. he can make it custom etc. I did mine totaling 96 LED's half of red led and the other half IR LED. The guy sent me the manu. specs which i forwared to BRD and he confirmed that output was really good. It cost me $100. If you guys like I'll tell him if he can do a discounted price for acne .org and show him the DPL and see if he can custom make it like that brand but for a lot less
That would be truly awesome , im certainly gonna get into this and follow all these procedures
hi Bulgarian R. Dermatologist
If all steps are followed to the most exact detail , what would you say in terms of improvement would i achieve for moderate rolling scars? i can provide pictures as it is hard to explain but i only have a little area that is scarred . Thanks for all your help
