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Here's a question.... For people with scarred pores or tiny ice pick scars, I wonder if it would be possible to excise the area with a tiny punch or needle and then fill in the "hole" with extracellular matrix.... Would it fill the skin in all the way or not at all? If it did cause skin to regrow in that "hole", couldn't it be dermabraded to smooth everything out, and voila... no more scar? Another option I wonder is if instead of ECM, if the "hole" was filled with Intercytex skin substitute ICX-SKN - it's a skin graft substitute that is converted into real skin over about a 4 week period. I dunno....
Any ideas? I wonder if this is possible....
I forgot to say that I thought of this when I came across an article on Ultra Refined Follicular Unit Transplantation.... referring to hair transplants. It seems they've refined the procedure so well that the grafts can be as small as .6mm and scarring is almost invisible.
Also, my friend made a good point. He asked me whether scarless healing would take a long time to come as there are two barriers to it.
The company/scientist will have to patent the technique, and he told me it will take years before they aprove something. Im not sure though, correct me if im wrong.
Secondly, FDA has to approve it too. He also told me it will take a long time.
Adding it up, it means a really looonnnggg time. BOO HOO!!!
what u guys think abt this?
Also, my friend made a good point. He asked me whether scarless healing would take a long time to come as there are two barriers to it.
The company/scientist will have to patent the technique, and he told me it will take years before they aprove something. Im not sure though, correct me if im wrong.
Secondly, FDA has to approve it too. He also told me it will take a long time.
Adding it up, it means a really looonnnggg time. BOO HOO!!!
what u guys think abt this?
With the amount of legal funds these companies have in place, patents will happen very quickly. The patenting process is not something that will hold this up. The FDA approval thing might add a little bit of time, but I cannot forsee it hindering something like this. The federal government is above the FDA...or at least on par with it and they're not going to have to sit around waiting for fda approval.
http://www.restore-research.org.uk/whatwedo.htm
check out this company. It isnt mentioned before, but it looks promising too.
Hey guys I have a question, is it possible that we can have digit regeneration without scarless healing? As in the case of Lee Speviack, he healed his fingertip through regeneration by it left a small scar.
If that is the case, scarless healing might not *gulp* come that early. Though researchers predict finger regeneration to be few years away only.
Thoughts?
Hey Tgan, look at the video I posted a few days ago or was it a week ago, look at the impressive skin regeneration on the tricky ulcer on that diabetic foot?
Anyway Speviack healed 98-99% of the skin on his finger with regeneration, but he says himself he ran out of powder, thus was unable to complete the course.
I think you are probably microscopically focusing on the scar which is tiny, and probably forgetting about the regeneration of the whole finger tip... The proportion of regeneration of the skin on the finger is 98% regeneration and no more than lets say 2% scarring at the very tip of the tip and this is without Speviack being able to complete a course...
Yes Kirk, But we are talking about scars on our face. Even a small scar left is still unsightly, cosidering acne scars are already small( but obvious ).
Also, my friend made a good point. He asked me whether scarless healing would take a long time to come as there are two barriers to it.
The company/scientist will have to patent the technique, and he told me it will take years before they aprove something. Im not sure though, correct me if im wrong.
Secondly, FDA has to approve it too. He also told me it will take a long time.
Adding it up, it means a really looonnnggg time. BOO HOO!!!
Not quite there is a massive pressure to cut procrastination and to bring forward a scarfree healing (wars, competition, just talking to someone who has suffered with disfigurement will make the best men & women charge ahead, people will lose work if the company can develop the treatment quicker abroad) and a lot of techniques are 'applications' not drugs and have a shorter testing to come to market. There are things out now that are applications that are available for human use, it is just they have not been menufactured yet..
Here's a question.... For people with scarred pores or tiny ice pick scars, I wonder if it would be possible to excise the area with a tiny punch or needle and then fill in the "hole" with extracellular matrix.... Would it fill the skin in all the way or not at all? If it did cause skin to regrow in that "hole", couldn't it be dermabraded to smooth everything out, and voila... no more scar? Another option I wonder is if instead of ECM, if the "hole" was filled with Intercytex skin substitute ICX-SKN - it's a skin graft substitute that is converted into real skin over about a 4 week period. I dunno....
Any ideas? I wonder if this is possible....
This is what I hope is possible. I hope the scarred area can be ablated and then some sort of ECM or growth factors can be appied to the area and instead of the run of the mill scarring that would occur when you ablate the area regeneration will occur. Therefore all structures that were missing when you had an atrophic scar would have a chance to regenerate and come back.
As far as patents and FDA approval etc...I believe if something was demonstrated to give us scar free healing in humans it would be granted fast track approval status. They would just have to demonstrate safety and the trials for efficacy would be followed. But it is fruitless to wonder how long it will take ...just know this ...it is going to be possible one day.
I had a great conversation with Mike Manning at Acell today. He prefaced everything with that he couldn't guarantee anything, of course....
So I asked him how he thought a 1mm punch wound would heal and he believed whole-heartedly that if it wasn't touching other scar tissue that it would heal as if it'd never been there. So that means that those with scars that overlap would need to literally ablate or excise the entire scarred area. I asked him whether or not he thought the dermis and epidermis could regenerate without scarring and he was so optimistic it scared me and excited me, but he isn't a doctor and said he couldn't guarantee anything of course. He said it'd be available for human use by the end of June or July I believe, but you'd have to get it through a doctor. He said the inventor, Dr. Spievack, believed Acell would be to this century what antibiotics were to the 20th century.
One thing that concerns me...or at least a hurtle we'll have to overcome is this: ALL scar tissue has to be removed. For those of you who don't know, the follicular root of the pores may and many times do extend slightly into the subcutaneous layer of fat under the dermis. For anyone with a deep scar - many acne scars - especially of the ice pick and scarred pore variety - originate from the bottom of the follicle....this means the scar tissue would have to be removed all the way down into the subcutaneous layer..... I mean...that means no dermis left in those areas?...... Of course, Mike said that they've healed full thickness wounds before, but that would be very scary to think of excising a huge chunk of dermis, leaving the subcutaneous layer exposed, and then putting acell over it..... but hey, isn't that the miracle of tissue regeneration and scarless healing? It wouldn't amaze us if it didn't do what we really wanted it to do..... regenerate, rebuild, restore. I have a weird sense of optimism about this. I felt happy today. Oh, and I asked him about whether or not he believed we'd be able to totally regrow skin on someone's face without scarring within ten years and he said he believed it was already here with Acell. Obviously they can't regrow limbs, but they have shown to regrow layers of tissue with little to NO scarring.
He was really, really cool and such a great guy to talk to. I told him I would love to volunteer to be "experimented" on and he took my info down....so we'll see about that? : )
On another important note - and I hope I don't sound too new-agey - Lynn McTaggart, author of The Intention Experiment and The Field wrote about the power of collective intention, and how it has been quantifiably measured in numerous experiments. I think it is absolutely crucial for all of us to put our collective minds together and EXPECT scarless healing and tissue regeneration as soon as possible. I think it is people like us all over different forums on the net who are searching for and yearning for and talking about regeneration that has led to the developments so far. And it is picking up speed because we continue to all give energy and expectation regarding it. Let's put nothing but positive expectation towards this. The more we do, the faster things will unfold. It's not a matter of if but when.
I had a great conversation with Mike Manning at Acell today. He prefaced everything with that he couldn't guarantee anything, of course....
So I asked him how he thought a 1mm punch wound would heal and he believed whole-heartedly that if it wasn't touching other scar tissue that it would heal as if it'd never been there. So that means that those with scars that overlap would need to literally ablate or excise the entire scarred area. I asked him whether or not he thought the dermis and epidermis could regenerate without scarring and he was so optimistic it scared me and excited me, but he isn't a doctor and said he couldn't guarantee anything of course. He said it'd be available for human use by the end of June or July I believe, but you'd have to get it through a doctor. He said the inventor, Dr. Spievack, believed Acell would be to this century what antibiotics were to the 20th century.
One thing that concerns me...or at least a hurtle we'll have to overcome is this: ALL scar tissue has to be removed. For those of you who don't know, the follicular root of the pores may and many times do extend slightly into the subcutaneous layer of fat under the dermis. For anyone with a deep scar - many acne scars - especially of the ice pick and scarred pore variety - originate from the bottom of the follicle....this means the scar tissue would have to be removed all the way down into the subcutaneous layer..... I mean...that means no dermis left in those areas?...... Of course, Mike said that they've healed full thickness wounds before, but that would be very scary to think of excising a huge chunk of dermis, leaving the subcutaneous layer exposed, and then putting acell over it..... but hey, isn't that the miracle of tissue regeneration and scarless healing? It wouldn't amaze us if it didn't do what we really wanted it to do..... regenerate, rebuild, restore. I have a weird sense of optimism about this. I felt happy today. Oh, and I asked him about whether or not he believed we'd be able to totally regrow skin on someone's face without scarring within ten years and he said he believed it was already here with Acell. Obviously they can't regrow limbs, but they have shown to regrow layers of tissue with little to NO scarring.
He was really, really cool and such a great guy to talk to. I told him I would love to volunteer to be "experimented" on and he took my info down....so we'll see about that? : )
On another important note - and I hope I don't sound too new-agey - Lynn McTaggart, author of The Intention Experiment and The Field wrote about the power of collective intention, and how it has been quantifiably measured in numerous experiments. I think it is absolutely crucial for all of us to put our collective minds together and EXPECT scarless healing and tissue regeneration as soon as possible. I think it is people like us all over different forums on the net who are searching for and yearning for and talking about regeneration that has led to the developments so far. And it is picking up speed because we continue to all give energy and expectation regarding it. Let's put nothing but positive expectation towards this. The more we do, the faster things will unfold. It's not a matter of if but when.
Exciting Holdon.
I actually predicted with Anna via PM, who hasn't been on the forum for a while, around Halloween, that someone would announce something big in 2008, I also predicted around april/may. In April/May I seen the regeneration of skin on a late stage diabetic foot on TEDtalks, regeneration that you could say was very, very impressive and I'm suprised this was not leaked to the media instead of the finger. Also in this time I've seen an article were a scientist has announced she is close to or maybe knows all the signalling processes of regeneration in skin, which hopeseed had spotted even earlier in a complex document, if I remember correctly.
So it looks like we have someone who has fell on to a powder he knows works but doesn't know the process and we have someone who understands the little signals in scarless healing in May...
Anyway I hope you are right about this theory.
sounds promising. I am literally a 20 minute drive from Acell Head Quarters ...I should probably volunteer my services as well. I just hate how he throws in there that caveat of "all the scar tissue must be removed" ...Ugh can't normal tissue grow and surround some of it ...
I just don't like that little statement because if Acell fails for this purpose he will just say "Acell works, but you must not have eliminated all the scar tissue"
I still have high hopes.
The healing of full dermal wounds of the animals with the application of acell is very remarkable. However, I read that there are some minimal scarring left. Any thoughts on this? As these animals have fur to cover any little scarring left( But i doubt they care anyway ). But if we do apply it on humans, we wouldnt want any scars( esp. on the face ). So im not too sure about that point.
Has acell been tested on any humans? Other then on Lee Speviack's fingertip?
which shows great result, other then the fact that
1) A fingertip wound would heal itself for childrens, though its rarer in aduts.
2) Theres a small scar left on his finger.
Whats the outcome like if it has been tested on other humans?
Also,I heard that fresh wounds being applied with acell has a considerable downside before being fully healed, like 2-3 weeks. Therefore, most people will have to take a leave or wait for their holidays before attempting such a procedure( If its applied to humans ).
Pieces in the puzzle? Compliments to things like Acell, Juvista, etc....
http://www.curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=650407
http://powermedic.dk/en/products
http://www.rifeenergymedicine.com/garywadereg1.html
http://www.cosmiclighthouse.com/jan08/arti...tion?page=0%2C1
Anyone heard of Revital?
very interesting...
http://blog.hasslberger.com/docs/REGENERAT..._BODY_PARTS.pdf
Do not confuse this with the current website selling a product called Revital. Type "patent search 4,455,302" into google and click on the first link. I'm referring to the medical-grade protein hydrolysate developed in 1984 by veterinarian Dr. Henry Robertson. It's fascinating! Sounds a lot like Acell, but much cheaper to make, etc..... I wonder whatever became of Dr. Robertson... if he's even still alive?
Hi, I am new here and I have suffered from acne scars too. The psychological trauma and consequent behavioural changes that result from having less than appealing facial skin forced me to seek an education that would give me potential insight in the science of dermal regenerative medicine. Unfortunately, Bulgarian society is very aesthetically oriented, perhaps no different than any regional/global cultural counterpart, and this caused me to evaluate myself in terms of collective expectations relating to one's overall image and level of attractiveness. I was very unhappy with the way I looked and I wanted to break through the barrier imposed upon me by my acne-scarred face. I felt I had everything necessary in life to become successful, be it intelligence, ambition and/or vision, but these facial imperfections were a barrier that seemed too formidable to overcome despite my focus on the future of my dreams. That said, I am not one to give up or give in! Thus I am presently a doctor involved in research-oriented dermatology and now conduct studies in this field in the city of Sofia, Bulgaria. I am also working with some colleagues in North America in related studies.
I find your thread fascinating, and I wanted to tell you that one of the keys to scarless healing is present within you all. Perhaps I may surprise you, but the answer to your and my problems is present within the oral mucosa.
1) Your saliva contains all the necessary proteins, interleukins/cytokines and growth factors that are necessary for optimal healing of dermal tissue. It has a variety of enzymes and hundreds of substances (many if not most still unknown) that play a role in minimizing infections, creating balanced inflammatory responses and stimulating organized ECM formation that resembles that which is present in normal/healthy skin. There are companies that will charge you hundreds of dollars for creams that contain some of these substances! Remember, your saliva as produced by your salivary glands is the way it is due to millions of years of evolution and is theoretically designed by nature to help you heal, both within the oral mucosa and the external dermal tissue. Thus a large variety of mammals do in fact lick their wounds and thus minimize infections, whilst supporting maximal tissue recovery without excessive/obstructive scar formation... Also, mastication causes micro-wounds in your oral mucosa, and from an evolutionary standpoint it makes sense to think of saliva as a substance that aides in the efficient healing of these wounds day in and day out.
2) The oral mucosa heals without scar formation. Basically the tissue inside your mouth is constantly undergoing scarless healing. In fact, it behaves like fetal tissue on a number of sequential regenerative 'levels'. This oral epithelium is different than your facial skin. There are many reasons for this, but I am not going to go into further details for now. I can simply tell you that saliva has the ability to regulate many healing processes, and though adult dermal fibroblasts have a tendency to create less than perfect healing, they too can to an extent be regulated by the composition present in your saliva.
Some scientists study salamanders in order to understand even more complex regenerative processes. Others study mammalian foetuses. A small minority go as far as studying human foetuses. However a conclusions made by a former mentor of mine, Dr. Dimitar Tahov, was that when it comes to scarless healing the oral mucosa is the answer that lays within us all. His studies showed that the oral mucosa's "cells", particularly those involved in wound reconstruction are histologically almost identical with these same cells in the unborn human foetus. Another research scientist, Dr. E. Dulguerov showed that saliva provided the needed (a) chemical signals (b) moist environment to promote the fast and scarless healing of the hard palate. He also concluded that the temperature inside the mouth helped the overall process occur in a more efficient fashion. Finally he found that digestive enzymes within saliva were seemingly promoting the disintegration of scar tissue that did not contain proper amounts of (a) elastin and (b) blood circulation, thereby allowing healthy tissue to take its place.
I'll suggest something that you may find strange.
1) Apply your own saliva to your skin at least three times per day. Apply more or as often as possible if that's a realistic/practical option. (Please do not use toothpaste before utilizing your saliva. Toothpaste contains substances that will not benefit your dermal tissue.) Unless your salivary glands are not functioning properly and as a possible consequence you have an active infection in your mouth, then do not worry about the bacteria present in your saliva. For your information, the saliva of a healthy organism has some of the most powerful anti-bacterial and indeed anti-viral substances known to science!
2) Once a week (or more depending on your circumstances), create micro-punctures in your facial skin in order to allow the topically applied saliva to penetrate further into your skin. I suggest you use a skin roller for this purpose. For topical absorption purposes, a 0.3mm to 0.75mm roller is enough. This is not collagen induction per se.
3) If you do mild facial peels, you can also apply the saliva right after the procedure. I do not recommend strong facial peels, because they can sometimes cause extra trauma to what is otherwise healthy skin that surrounds the target scar tissue. Please be careful when dealing with acids.
4) Do not store your saliva for later use. Simply use the saliva right after it exits your oral cavity. Don't worry, your salivary glands will compensate you for external saliva applications. 
5) To see if there are effects from this regimen, simply take before and after pictures of your skin. Use the same source of light, distance to the source, and relative light/camera angle. Do this simply to see for yourself what changes your skin is undergoing.
I wish you good luck and great results...
Hi, I am new here and I have suffered from acne scars too. The psychological trauma and consequent behavioural changes that result from having less than appealing facial skin forced me to seek an education that would give me potential insight in the science of dermal regenerative medicine. Unfortunately, Bulgarian society is very aesthetically oriented, perhaps no different than any regional/global cultural counterpart, and this caused me to evaluate myself in terms of collective expectations relating to one's overall image and level of attractiveness. I was very unhappy with the way I looked and I wanted to break through the barrier imposed upon me by my acne-scarred face. I felt I had everything necessary in life to become successful, be it intelligence, ambition and/or vision, but these facial imperfections were a barrier that seemed too formidable to overcome despite my focus on the future of my dreams. That said, I am not one to give up or give in! Thus I am presently a doctor involved in research-oriented dermatology and now conduct studies in this field in the city of Sofia, Bulgaria. I am also working with some colleagues in North America in related studies.
I find your thread fascinating, and I wanted to tell you that one of the keys to scarless healing is present within you all. Perhaps I may surprise you, but the answer to your and my problems is present within the oral mucosa.
1) Your saliva contains all the necessary proteins, interleukins/cytokines and growth factors that are necessary for optimal healing of dermal tissue. It has a variety of enzymes and hundreds of substances (many if not most still unknown) that play a role in minimizing infections, creating balanced inflammatory responses and stimulating organized ECM formation that resembles that which is present in normal/healthy skin. There are companies that will charge you hundreds of dollars for creams that contain some of these substances! Remember, your saliva as produced by your salivary glands is the way it is due to millions of years of evolution and is theoretically designed by nature to help you heal, both within the oral mucosa and the external dermal tissue. Thus a large variety of mammals do in fact lick their wounds and thus minimize infections, whilst supporting maximal tissue recovery without excessive/obstructive scar formation... Also, mastication causes micro-wounds in your oral mucosa, and from an evolutionary standpoint it makes sense to think of saliva as a substance that aides in the efficient healing of these wounds day in and day out.
2) The oral mucosa heals without scar formation. Basically the tissue inside your mouth is constantly undergoing scarless healing. In fact, it behaves like fetal tissue on a number of sequential regenerative 'levels'. This oral epithelium is different than your facial skin. There are many reasons for this, but I am not going to go into further details for now. I can simply tell you that saliva has the ability to regulate many healing processes, and though adult dermal fibroblasts have a tendency to create less than perfect healing, they too can to an extent be regulated by the composition present in your saliva.
Some scientists study salamanders in order to understand even more complex regenerative processes. Others study mammalian foetuses. A small minority go as far as studying human foetuses. However a conclusions made by a former mentor of mine, Dr. Dimitar Tahov, was that when it comes to scarless healing the oral mucosa is the answer that lays within us all. His studies showed that the oral mucosa's "cells", particularly those involved in wound reconstruction are histologically almost identical with these same cells in the unborn human foetus. Another research scientist, Dr. E. Dulguerov showed that saliva provided the needed (a) chemical signals (b) moist environment to promote the fast and scarless healing of the hard palate. He also concluded that the temperature inside the mouth helped the overall process occur in a more efficient fashion. Finally he found that digestive enzymes within saliva were seemingly promoting the disintegration of scar tissue that did not contain proper amounts of (a) elastin and (b) blood circulation, thereby allowing healthy tissue to take its place.
I'll suggest something that you may find strange.
1) Apply your own saliva to your skin at least three times per day. Apply more or as often as possible if that's a realistic/practical option. (Please do not use toothpaste before utilizing your saliva. Toothpaste contains substances that will not benefit your dermal tissue.) Unless your salivary glands are not functioning properly and as a possible consequence you have an active infection in your mouth, then do not worry about the bacteria present in your saliva. For your information, the saliva of a healthy organism has some of the most powerful anti-bacterial and indeed anti-viral substances known to science!
2) Once a week (or more depending on your circumstances), create micro-punctures in your facial skin in order to allow the topically applied saliva to penetrate further into your skin. I suggest you use a skin roller for this purpose. For topical absorption purposes, a 0.3mm to 0.75mm roller is enough. This is not collagen induction per se.
3) If you do mild facial peels, you can also apply the saliva right after the procedure. I do not recommend strong facial peels, because they can sometimes cause extra trauma to what is otherwise healthy skin that surrounds the target scar tissue. Please be careful when dealing with acids.
4) Do not store your saliva for later use. Simply use the saliva right after it exits your oral cavity. Don't worry, your salivary glands will compensate you for external saliva applications.
5) To see if there are effects from this regimen, simply take before and after pictures of your skin. Use the same source of light, distance to the source, and relative light/camera angle. Do this simply to see for yourself what changes your skin is undergoing.
I wish you good luck and great results...
Thank you for posting, this sounds interesting. However I can not belive that this will work.
Let us assume that this method will completely avoid scarring after an new injury (which I also do not belive)- but please tell me how can saliva break down the existing scar tissue from acne, which runs very deep in the skin? Don't you think that people would already know about this method, if it really works?
Hi, I am new here and I have suffered from acne scars too. The psychological trauma and consequent behavioural changes that result from having less than appealing facial skin forced me to seek an education that would give me potential insight in the science of dermal regenerative medicine. Unfortunately, Bulgarian society is very aesthetically oriented, perhaps no different than any regional/global cultural counterpart, and this caused me to evaluate myself in terms of collective expectations relating to one's overall image and level of attractiveness. I was very unhappy with the way I looked and I wanted to break through the barrier imposed upon me by my acne-scarred face. I felt I had everything necessary in life to become successful, be it intelligence, ambition and/or vision, but these facial imperfections were a barrier that seemed too formidable to overcome despite my focus on the future of my dreams. That said, I am not one to give up or give in! Thus I am presently a doctor involved in research-oriented dermatology and now conduct studies in this field in the city of Sofia, Bulgaria. I am also working with some colleagues in North America in related studies.
I find your thread fascinating, and I wanted to tell you that one of the keys to scarless healing is present within you all. Perhaps I may surprise you, but the answer to your and my problems is present within the oral mucosa.
1) Your saliva contains all the necessary proteins, interleukins/cytokines and growth factors that are necessary for optimal healing of dermal tissue. It has a variety of enzymes and hundreds of substances (many if not most still unknown) that play a role in minimizing infections, creating balanced inflammatory responses and stimulating organized ECM formation that resembles that which is present in normal/healthy skin. There are companies that will charge you hundreds of dollars for creams that contain some of these substances! Remember, your saliva as produced by your salivary glands is the way it is due to millions of years of evolution and is theoretically designed by nature to help you heal, both within the oral mucosa and the external dermal tissue. Thus a large variety of mammals do in fact lick their wounds and thus minimize infections, whilst supporting maximal tissue recovery without excessive/obstructive scar formation... Also, mastication causes micro-wounds in your oral mucosa, and from an evolutionary standpoint it makes sense to think of saliva as a substance that aides in the efficient healing of these wounds day in and day out.
2) The oral mucosa heals without scar formation. Basically the tissue inside your mouth is constantly undergoing scarless healing. In fact, it behaves like fetal tissue on a number of sequential regenerative 'levels'. This oral epithelium is different than your facial skin. There are many reasons for this, but I am not going to go into further details for now. I can simply tell you that saliva has the ability to regulate many healing processes, and though adult dermal fibroblasts have a tendency to create less than perfect healing, they too can to an extent be regulated by the composition present in your saliva.
Some scientists study salamanders in order to understand even more complex regenerative processes. Others study mammalian foetuses. A small minority go as far as studying human foetuses. However a conclusions made by a former mentor of mine, Dr. Dimitar Tahov, was that when it comes to scarless healing the oral mucosa is the answer that lays within us all. His studies showed that the oral mucosa's "cells", particularly those involved in wound reconstruction are histologically almost identical with these same cells in the unborn human foetus. Another research scientist, Dr. E. Dulguerov showed that saliva provided the needed (a) chemical signals (b) moist environment to promote the fast and scarless healing of the hard palate. He also concluded that the temperature inside the mouth helped the overall process occur in a more efficient fashion. Finally he found that digestive enzymes within saliva were seemingly promoting the disintegration of scar tissue that did not contain proper amounts of (a) elastin and (b) blood circulation, thereby allowing healthy tissue to take its place.
I'll suggest something that you may find strange.
1) Apply your own saliva to your skin at least three times per day. Apply more or as often as possible if that's a realistic/practical option. (Please do not use toothpaste before utilizing your saliva. Toothpaste contains substances that will not benefit your dermal tissue.) Unless your salivary glands are not functioning properly and as a possible consequence you have an active infection in your mouth, then do not worry about the bacteria present in your saliva. For your information, the saliva of a healthy organism has some of the most powerful anti-bacterial and indeed anti-viral substances known to science!
2) Once a week (or more depending on your circumstances), create micro-punctures in your facial skin in order to allow the topically applied saliva to penetrate further into your skin. I suggest you use a skin roller for this purpose. For topical absorption purposes, a 0.3mm to 0.75mm roller is enough. This is not collagen induction per se.
3) If you do mild facial peels, you can also apply the saliva right after the procedure. I do not recommend strong facial peels, because they can sometimes cause extra trauma to what is otherwise healthy skin that surrounds the target scar tissue. Please be careful when dealing with acids.
4) Do not store your saliva for later use. Simply use the saliva right after it exits your oral cavity. Don't worry, your salivary glands will compensate you for external saliva applications.
5) To see if there are effects from this regimen, simply take before and after pictures of your skin. Use the same source of light, distance to the source, and relative light/camera angle. Do this simply to see for yourself what changes your skin is undergoing.
I wish you good luck and great results...
Thank you for posting, this sounds interesting. However I can not belive that this will work.
Let us assume that this method will completely avoid scarring after an new injury (which I also do not belive)- but please tell me how can saliva break down the existing scar tissue from acne, which runs very deep in the skin? Don't you think that people would already know about this method, if it really works?
Hello Changelife,
Of course I understand if you do not believe saliva to have the kind of functionality I discussed. Most people, including medical doctors, don't know about this. I suppose it is because there is a general belief that there must be something external to ourselves, be it mechanical or chemical in nature that can help us in our fight against a variety of ailments, including scarred dermal tissue. So then the question is, how can saliva be so effective and just about no one knows about this?
I can also tell you that such research has been conducted in the USA and most people haven't heard anything about it. In fact, there are a minority of us who believe that the puzzle to scarless healing will be completely solved once we fully understand the interaction between saliva and the oral mucosa fibroblasts.
I propose to you to do research on the internet about the substances contained in saliva. Studies writte in English are available in various Western journals. I also propose to you to do a search regarding scarless healing in the oral mucosa. Also conduct a search regarding growth factors, cytokines, etc... that are contained in saliva.
In my previous post I mentioned important findings from research conducted in Bulgaria. Much of these studies were done in the Communist period when free market capitalism did not direct scientific research. Perhaps this was a great disadvantage in most ways, but it also allowed scientists the freedom to study even those things that were deemed to have no commercial value. After all, nothing was officially deemed to have such value anyway... Thus research into saliva based burn care was conducted and some started trying to isolate certain proteins in order to see their direct effects on various types of wound healing, including diabetic ulcers. Saliva was found to be more effective than any commercial products employed at the time. Many commercial enterprises such as pharmaceutical companies and/or wound/scar cream manufacturers cannot directly profit from your saliva. The indirect route to $$$ is another story of course...
Did you know that your saliva has ample quantities of HA? There are plenty of creams that market themselves based on their HA composition.
How about the growth factors, interleukins, etc..? Again there are companies such as TNS Recovery, Neocutis, Renovo, etc.., that offer just a few of the components present in saliva, whilst charging a lot of money in the process.
For example, Renovo's product Juvista contains TGF²3. This is contained in saliva and due to supporting components it is more bio-available.
Prevascar uses IL-10. This is contained in your saliva, yet better still it is balanced by other ILs (interleukins).
Neocutis, a local Swiss company, uses the isolated growth factors from an aborted two-month-old human foetus. Again all of these growth factors are contained in saliva, along with a myriad of other substances that no laboratory, be it commercial or otherwise, has as of yet isolated and or fully understood.
TNS Recovery also utilizes GFs and ILs, but again they do not represent the spectrum present in your saliva.
Consider that your saliva is free and constantly available for you to utilize. I am one of the few scientists who will tell you that your saliva is better for your skin than any cream you can currently buy on the global markets. I am doing this because I know that you are suffering. Also I can not profit from this (your saliva as a whole is not patentable ), so please do your best to understand that I am here because I believe you do not deserve to suffer and I want you to have another piece of the knowledge pie that will aide you in your mission to conquer your acne scars.
PS: There are companies that sell copper-peptide creams. GHK-Cu tripeptides aide in wound healing and partially stimulate scarless dermal regeneration. I think you know where this is going... Yes, your saliva contains these substances as well.
I'm wondering Bulgarian derm, have you experimented on yourself and seen good results with saliva? Have you pricked holes in your skin from dermaroller and applied saliva?
The mouth is not a totally scarless healing environment because I do have scars inside my mouth from when I have braces and they put all kinds of metal contraptions in there like a pallet splitter, and the metal would poke the inner linings of my cheeks and I got some raised scars from it.
I think it could be dangerous for people to spit on their own wounds, don't some people have yeast in the mouth? Maybe someone in perfect health has good saliva, and it could work.
On another note my husband gets a "doggy facial" from our yorkie every night and I used to wonder why it never broke him out in acne, but maybe it was actually preventing it? LOL
I'm wondering Bulgarian derm, have you experimented on yourself and seen good results with saliva? Have you pricked holes in your skin from dermaroller and applied saliva?
The mouth is not a totally scarless healing environment because I do have scars inside my mouth from when I have braces and they put all kinds of metal contraptions in there like a pallet splitter, and the metal would poke the inner linings of my cheeks and I got some raised scars from it.
I think it could be dangerous for people to spit on their own wounds, don't some people have yeast in the mouth? Maybe someone in perfect health has good saliva, and it could work.
On another note my husband gets a "doggy facial" from our yorkie every night and I used to wonder why it never broke him out in acne, but maybe it was actually preventing it? LOL
EDIT: You may want to read this article http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_412b.html
I was bored so googled it. There is a risk to licking your wounds. I wonder though it baby drool is clean because my toddler has plenty right now since he's teething 
Consider that your saliva is free and constantly available for you to utilize. I am one of the few scientists who will tell you that your saliva is better for your skin than any cream you can currently buy on the global markets. I am doing this because I know that you are suffering. Also I can not profit from this
You're at least partially wrong here, doc - at least in my case. I know from several months of personal experience that application of saliva as a topical agent is inferior to benzoyl peroxide as a topical agent in terms of the prevention and/or reduction of acne lesions, and thus your belief that saliva "is better for your skin than any cream" is at least partially incorrect, in my case.
And on a side note, while you may have no financial incentive, please be aware that you have not ruled out the possibility that you seek a sample to test a theory upon. Nevertheless, for those that seek additional alternatives, you are indeed merely presenting an alternative (albeit with questionable risk disclosure).
I am curious, am I allowed to post links to peer reviewed articles on this forum? I have English language articles from medical journals that I would like to post or link, but I am not sure if this is permitted. Otherwise, I just searched in google and they are indeed available that way.
I mentioned this before, as it seems to me that many do not believe what I say. Thus I asked that you go to the internet search engine and type:
Search A) saliva scarless healing
Search B) saliva anti-bacterial properties
Search C) saliva interleukins
Search D) saliva cytokines
Search E) saliva growth factors
Search F) saliva hyaluronic acid
Search G) saliva tripeptide healing
Search H) saliva effects on wound healing
Search I) saliva thiocyanate, hydrogen peroxide and secretory immunoglobulin A (IgA)
Search J) saliva mucopolysaccharides
Search K) saliva glycoproteins
Search L) saliva lactoferrin and lactoperoxidase
Search M) saliva wound contraction
I feel that perhaps if you read some of the research yourselves you will find that what I have told you is proven in various experiments. I explained that saliva is one of the pieces to scarless healing as it contains substances that disinfect, regulate immune responses and consequent regeneration of tissue. However, as I also said the other puzzle is the histology of the cells in the oral mucosa. As of yet, we are unsure why they heal so fast and so well, but the oral fibroblasts in particular are exceptional in their ability to rebuild areas such as the hard palate's epithelium.
Answers to your questions:
Yes, saliva is safe. Yes, people can have yeast in their saliva, but healthy organisms are not threatened by it. The anti-microbial properties of saliva are very efficient and effective. If they weren't you would have experienced chronic gum disease since early childhood and consequently you would have lost your teeth while you were still a teenager. You can perform a search about this too. Basically saliva rebuilds teeth by way of phosphorus and calcium and a variety of proteins that bind them to micro-cavities. There are people who don't produce enough saliva and the result is gum disease, chronic wounds and deteriorated teeth within just a few years of primary symptom occurrence.
Yes, saliva in healthy individuals has anti-inflammatory properties. Usually this factor is a function of the interplay between various interleukins. I don't understand how B-peroxide can be more effective, since it primarily destroys microbes and healthy tissue while it doesn't target the localized immune response. Also, as you would see from the search criteria I gave you, saliva itself contains hydrogen peroxide which is enhanced by lactoperoxidase, lactoferrin and thyocianate and IgA. However, if you tried both benzyl-peroxide and saliva and compared your results then I certainly have no right to question your experience. I can only tell you what I know based on my studies, experiments and personal use.
I find this topic no more amusing that anyone else. For a while I wasn't sure if I should tell anyone here about the properties of saliva simply because I knew that most people would not believe it. Thus in all fairness I ask you to neither trust or distrust what say, unless you've done your homework and feel there is either objective sincerity or on the contrary subjective perspectives as principle facets of my posts. Your personal experiences in combination with solidified knowledge will give you the opportunity to decide whether what I tell you is of benefit to you... Again, go on the internet and search, either by way of your own criteria or the preset searches (A - M) that I typed for you above. And please don't read non peer reviewed scientific articles. You will have access to various studies that contain detailed introductions, experimental discussions, and result oriented summaries.
Finally, someone suggested that I might be here to collect experimental samples. Well, if anyone knows anything about scientific experiments, it certainly doesn't involve internet forums where the experimenter has no control over the variables (controls included) at hand and/or the stringent application of a given methodology. I understand you have the right to be suspicious, but you also have the responsibility to educate yourself in light of what I have discussed before you develop an opinion about what my intentions may or may not be. I am here to suggest something that may help you and indeed has helped others under my supervision. Finally, I don't require anyone else to aide me in my research since I already know what the results are from the daily application of saliva to the derma. Of course getting the saliva to the scar tissue is another issue altogether and I have suggested a safe way in which you can do this. I have not suggested you use some of the methods applied in a laboratory environment for your own safety.
I have spent more than a few hours writing and replying to you only because I know what pain one feels when they walk under the bright sunlight and look away every time a fellow human being approaches with the piercing glare of inquisitive eyes. I know what it is like to go to a nightclub and have strong, focused unidirectional light shine on your face only to see those observing you suddenly change their facial expressions from that of affinity and sexual curiosity to that of sincere disgust coupled to a polarized and short-lived feeling of empathy... For they see your imperfectness and absolute psychological nakedness exposed in such a blatantly simple and seemingly harmless manner that pushes their image oriented hearts in the opposite direction to seek, to strive and finally find the porcelain doll that you are not. Oh but harmful it is... for they move on with their lives and you are there left thinking what could have been had you the skin that all the other socially-programmed "puppets" seemingly take for granted. I know this because I lived this in my teenage years and mid twenties...
So, do what you feel is in your best interest. Take what I say with a grain of salt and investigate for yourselves. I must admit that I am surprised that people here use things like TCA, dermabrasion, lasers, etc..., yet show animosity towards a natural substance produced by their salivary glands. Saliva is ONE of the primary pieces to scarless healing, so it can indeed help you in a very positive fashion. That's my experience, both as a professional and as a "patient".
I am curious, am I allowed to post links to peer reviewed articles on this forum? I have English language articles from medical journals that I would like to post or link, but I am not sure if this is permitted. Otherwise, I just searched in google and they are indeed available that way.
I mentioned this before, as it seems to me that many do not believe what I say. Thus I asked that you go to the internet search engine and type:
Search A) saliva scarless healing
Search B) saliva anti-bacterial properties
Search C) saliva interleukins
Search D) saliva cytokines
Search E) saliva growth factors
Search F) saliva hyaluronic acid
Search G) saliva tripeptide healing
Search H) saliva effects on wound healing
Search I) saliva thiocyanate, hydrogen peroxide and secretory immunoglobulin A (IgA)
Search J) saliva mucopolysaccharides
Search K) saliva glycoproteins
Search L) saliva lactoferrin and lactoperoxidase
Search M) saliva wound contraction
I feel that perhaps if you read some of the research yourselves you will find that what I have told you is proven in various experiments. I explained that saliva is one of the pieces to scarless healing as it contains substances that disinfect, regulate immune responses and consequent regeneration of tissue. However, as I also said the other puzzle is the histology of the cells in the oral mucosa. As of yet, we are unsure why they heal so fast and so well, but the oral fibroblasts in particular are exceptional in their ability to rebuild areas such as the hard palate's epithelium.
Answers to your questions:
Yes, saliva is safe. Yes, people can have yeast in their saliva, but healthy organisms are not threatened by it. The anti-microbial properties of saliva are very efficient and effective. If they weren't you would have experienced chronic gum disease since early childhood and consequently you would have lost your teeth while you were still a teenager. You can perform a search about this too. Basically saliva rebuilds teeth by way of phosphorus and calcium and a variety of proteins that bind them to micro-cavities. There are people who don't produce enough saliva and the result is gum disease, chronic wounds and deteriorated teeth within just a few years of primary symptom occurrence.
Yes, saliva in healthy individuals has anti-inflammatory properties. Usually this factor is a function of the interplay between various interleukins. I don't understand how B-peroxide can be more effective, since it primarily destroys microbes and healthy tissue while it doesn't target the localized immune response. Also, as you would see from the search criteria I gave you, saliva itself contains hydrogen peroxide which is enhanced by lactoperoxidase, lactoferrin and thyocianate and IgA. However, if you tried both benzyl-peroxide and saliva and compared your results then I certainly have no right to question your experience. I can only tell you what I know based on my studies, experiments and personal use.
I find this topic no more amusing that anyone else. For a while I wasn't sure if I should tell anyone here about the properties of saliva simply because I knew that most people would not believe it. Thus in all fairness I ask you to neither trust or distrust what say, unless you've done your homework and feel there is either objective sincerity or on the contrary subjective perspectives as principle facets of my posts. Your personal experiences in combination with solidified knowledge will give you the opportunity to decide whether what I tell you is of benefit to you... Again, go on the internet and search, either by way of your own criteria or the preset searches (A - M) that I typed for you above. And please don't read non peer reviewed scientific articles. You will have access to various studies that contain detailed introductions, experimental discussions, and result oriented summaries.
Finally, someone suggested that I might be here to collect experimental samples. Well, if anyone knows anything about scientific experiments, it certainly doesn't involve internet forums where the experimenter has no control over the variables (controls included) at hand and/or the stringent application of a given methodology. I understand you have the right to be suspicious, but you also have the responsibility to educate yourself in light of what I have discussed before you develop an opinion about what my intentions may or may not be. I am here to suggest something that may help you and indeed has helped others under my supervision. Finally, I don't require anyone else to aide me in my research since I already know what the results are from the daily application of saliva to the derma. Of course getting the saliva to the scar tissue is another issue altogether and I have suggested a safe way in which you can do this. I have not suggested you use some of the methods applied in a laboratory environment for your own safety.
I have spent more than a few hours writing and replying to you only because I know what pain one feels when they walk under the bright sunlight and look away every time a fellow human being approaches with the piercing glare of inquisitive eyes. I know what it is like to go to a nightclub and have strong, focused unidirectional light shine on your face only to see those observing you suddenly change their facial expressions from that of affinity and sexual curiosity to that of sincere disgust coupled to a polarized and short-lived feeling of empathy... For they see your imperfectness and absolute psychological nakedness exposed in such a blatantly simple and seemingly harmless manner that pushes their image oriented hearts in the opposite direction to seek, to strive and finally find the porcelain doll that you are not. Oh but harmful it is... for they move on with their lives and you are there left thinking what could have been had you the skin that all the other socially-programmed "puppets" seemingly take for granted. I know this because I lived this in my teenage years and mid twenties...
So, do what you feel is in your best interest. Take what I say with a grain of salt and investigate for yourselves. I must admit that I am surprised that people here use things like TCA, dermabrasion, lasers, etc..., yet show animosity towards a natural substance produced by their salivary glands. Saliva is ONE of the primary pieces to scarless healing, so it can indeed help you in a very positive fashion. That's my experience, both as a professional and as a "patient".
Quick response:
Extrinsic verse intrinsic
I've read about oral mucosa in the past and what you are saying fits, be it because of the trauma in our mouths and the fact or saliva is always around extrinsically to the intrinsic healing process when we heal that wound coming from a bit of gristle etc. It seems probable that we have evolved with our saliva being some extrinsic use to healing. So I do believe the the oral mucosa will have some quality properties... But these properties are extrinsic and complimentary, to the intrinsic genetic repairing that goes on in the mouth. (Also salamanda skin does not have a saliva???, the mlr mouse skin behind the ear does not have a saliva, and the mouse does not have a tounge long enough to lick behind the ear)
It is valid, it fits but it is complimentary, yet you assume it is the solution
So though I believe saliva has some qualities, I know we would not find the complete solution from saliva because if we had, our caveman ancistors would have passed on the licking knowledge in a meme to us in our present day. And we would see apes who don't have scars.
But I do think there are kernels of truth in your saliva theory but these are extrisic 'complimentary' properties, I believe you would find some extrinsic properties coming from the saliva that would compliment the intrinsic properties coming from an extracelluar matrix that is constantly missing from our healing processes.
However I believe these intrinsic properties coming from ECM can make the extrinsic properties (growth factors etc) you are concerned with coming from saliva. Thus to me this makes saliva 'complimentary.'
And I also know that there are people who are designing clever drugs built on these properties who have probably theorised years ago about the oral mucosa and have seen in detail the mechanism of action of these properties... So what you are saying is not new. In fact the latest fad is salamanders were everyone is looking at the extrinsic and intrinsic properties.
You also make it sound like scarless healing needs more research time and claim you have read this thread. If you had read this thread, you will see we have the opinion that scarless healing is very, very close. Take me for example I believe it is already here from the jigsaw puzzle. I think hopeseed thinks it is here or nearly here, Tgan thinks it is nearly here, Anna thinks it is nearly here... And if you seen some of the links we have brought up I think you would see it is nearly here; but here you are using the extrinsic example of saliva and claiming that saliva is a new theory that hasn't been studied.