Hello Changelife,

 

Of course I understand if you do not believe saliva to have the kind of functionality I discussed. Most people, including medical doctors, don't know about this. I suppose it is because there is a general belief that there must be something external to ourselves, be it mechanical or chemical in nature that can help us in our fight against a variety of ailments, including scarred dermal tissue. So then the question is, how can saliva be so effective and just about no one knows about this?

 

I can also tell you that such research has been conducted in the USA and most people haven't heard anything about it. In fact, there are a minority of us who believe that the puzzle to scarless healing will be completely solved once we fully understand the interaction between saliva and the oral mucosa fibroblasts.

 

I propose to you to do research on the internet about the substances contained in saliva. Studies writte in English are available in various Western journals. I also propose to you to do a search regarding scarless healing in the oral mucosa. Also conduct a search regarding growth factors, cytokines, etc... that are contained in saliva.

 

In my previous post I mentioned important findings from research conducted in Bulgaria. Much of these studies were done in the Communist period when free market capitalism did not direct scientific research. Perhaps this was a great disadvantage in most ways, but it also allowed scientists the freedom to study even those things that were deemed to have no commercial value. After all, nothing was officially deemed to have such value anyway... Thus research into saliva based burn care was conducted and some started trying to isolate certain proteins in order to see their direct effects on various types of wound healing, including diabetic ulcers. Saliva was found to be more effective than any commercial products employed at the time. Many commercial enterprises such as pharmaceutical companies and/or wound/scar cream manufacturers cannot directly profit from your saliva. The indirect route to $$$ is another story of course...

 

Did you know that your saliva has ample quantities of HA? There are plenty of creams that market themselves based on their HA composition.

 

How about the growth factors, interleukins, etc..? Again there are companies such as TNS Recovery, Neocutis, Renovo, etc.., that offer just a few of the components present in saliva, whilst charging a lot of money in the process.

 

For example, Renovo's product Juvista contains TGFŽ²3. This is contained in saliva and due to supporting components it is more bio-available.

 

Prevascar uses IL-10. This is contained in your saliva, yet better still it is balanced by other ILs (interleukins).

 

Neocutis, a local Swiss company, uses the isolated growth factors from an aborted two-month-old human foetus. Again all of these growth factors are contained in saliva, along with a myriad of other substances that no laboratory, be it commercial or otherwise, has as of yet isolated and or fully understood.

 

TNS Recovery also utilizes GFs and ILs, but again they do not represent the spectrum present in your saliva.

 

Consider that your saliva is free and constantly available for you to utilize. I am one of the few scientists who will tell you that your saliva is better for your skin than any cream you can currently buy on the global markets. I am doing this because I know that you are suffering. Also I can not profit from this (your saliva as a whole is not patentable ), so please do your best to understand that I am here because I believe you do not deserve to suffer and I want you to have another piece of the knowledge pie that will aide you in your mission to conquer your acne scars.

 

PS: There are companies that sell copper-peptide creams. GHK-Cu tripeptides aide in wound healing and partially stimulate scarless dermal regeneration. I think you know where this is going... Yes, your saliva contains these substances as well.

Hello Bulgarian Derm.,

from your response I can recognize that you know a lot about scarless healing and the factors(TGF-Beta 1/2/3, Interleukines) etc. which are responsible for this phenomenon.

I do very appreciate this and also your complex answers. To be honest, I do not have the time to read all the scientific texts about growth factors, IL's etc. so I can not say that I'm very informed about this toppic. I know that scarless healing skin(embryotic skin) consists of a high TGF-Beta 3 level and low levels of

TGF-Beta 1/2. In saliva the ratio between TGF-Beta 1 and 3 is in favor of TGF-Beta 3 (Renovo's

Juvista supports TGF-Beta 3) . So saliva contains one stuff of many, which is responsible for scarless healing and maybe you are right. But I also heard that not only the saliva is responsible for scarless healing, but also the oral mucosa. So this means that saliva do only the trick in connection with the characteristics of the

oral mucosa and is useless for facial skin. Only an trial-and-error can tell the truth. For myself I

would try it, if I had fresh acne wounds. But I do only have old acne scars(7 years), which has

been healed comletely. The skin reparation has been done with scar tissue. So I need something, which can remove the old scar tissue. I can not imagine that saliva can do this. I already asked you about this concern and now I ask you again: what do you think about the problem of removing the old scar tissue in connection with saliva? Thanks for your answer.

You also make it sound like scarless healing needs more research time and claim you have read this thread. If you had read this thread, you will see we have the opinion that scarless healing is very, very close. Take me for example I believe it is already here from the jigsaw puzzle. I think hopeseed thinks it is here or nearly here, Tgan thinks it is nearly here, Anna thinks it is nearly here... And if you seen some of the links we have brought up I think you would see it is nearly here; but here you are using the extrinsic example of saliva and claiming that saliva is a new theory that hasn't been studied.

Hello Kirk,

why are you so sure that scarless healing is nearly here. Do you think so because of Acell, Intercytex and Renovo(Are there other companies?)?. Can also sufferer from acne scars profit by these inventions in near future? If yes, how long will it approximately last till scarless/scarfree healing is an option for sufferer of old intended acne scars? Thanks

Are we lying to ourselves, people? We don't need to just remove scar tissue - we will need tissue *REGENERATION* at the SUBCUTANEOUS level. Pores reach past the dermis and INTO the subcutaneous tissue, and that's how far blemishes go. This means that some or many will have to remove large portions of the landscape of their skin in order to start anew. Depressed scars arent just visible because of scar tissue - it's because actual tissue is MISSING. So, until there is something that tells the body to "regrow what was there...and while you're at it, seamlessly integrate the new skin into the old skin...." then people with any type of scars are fucked.

I was excited by my convo with someone from Acell until I realized that pores reach into the subcutaneous tissue and ALL scar tissue must be removed in order to stimulate the regeneration response. That left me with images of people having all the skin of their cheek or chin or forehead removed in order to start fresh.

So, we don't need scarless healing. We need something that tells the body to replace perfectly what was taken away. But here's the thing - even if tissue regeneration was possible, is it only possible in an animal that has not yet scarred? Salamanders have the unique regeneration response and so I'm guessing they have NEVER scarred to begin with - but for humans and other animals who have scarred, perhaps true regeneration without scars is an impossibility. I don't know.

On to the "mind power" forums to see if maybe I can *will* beautiful skin into being.... That's really the only shit we have at this point.

You also make it sound like scarless healing needs more research time and claim you have read this thread. If you had read this thread, you will see we have the opinion that scarless healing is very, very close. Take me for example I believe it is already here from the jigsaw puzzle. I think hopeseed thinks it is here or nearly here, Tgan thinks it is nearly here, Anna thinks it is nearly here... And if you seen some of the links we have brought up I think you would see it is nearly here; but here you are using the extrinsic example of saliva and claiming that saliva is a new theory that hasn't been studied.

 

Hello Kirk,

 

why are you so sure that scarless healing is nearly here. Do you think so because of Acell, Intercytex and Renovo(Are there other companies?)?. Can also sufferer from acne scars profit by these inventions in near future? If yes, how long will it approximately last till scarless/scarfree healing is an option for sufferer of old intended acne scars? Thanks

 

Hello Changelife,

I personally have been keeping an eye of scarless healing for a long time now as have a lot of others. And I'm confident it is here and it will involve extracelluar matrix (ECM) which is missing when we wound but is involved in the constant regeneration of our tissues.

I see you have read the first page and the last pages on this thread and not read the in-between by what you have shown you know (Perhaps Tom Mason can put some round up of what we have since found on his thread opener??)

If you read the previous maybe 10-15 pages you would see some of the optimism, which we have got through research and pinning things together like the fact that skin is the easiest organ to regenerate and they have now made a bladder; like the fact we have seen good examples of regeneration without scarring, and heard of complete regeneration without scarring using the ECM like the fact that a Dr now knows all the mechanisms involved in regeneration which was announced a couple of month ago.

So we now have some matrix that can achieve regeneration, were the finder of this material doesn't yet know how the mechanism works that is actually approved for human use (seen a finger that regenerated where the patient didn't even finish the course, seen a 'late stage' diabetic foot heal); and now we have someone who completely understands the scarring process, who has indexed all the mechanisms and manipulated this to work.

Anyway I hope this briefing was helpful.

Are we lying to ourselves, people? We don't need to just remove scar tissue - we will need tissue *REGENERATION* at the SUBCUTANEOUS level. Pores reach past the dermis and INTO the subcutaneous tissue, and that's how far blemishes go. This means that some or many will have to remove large portions of the landscape of their skin in order to start anew. Depressed scars arent just visible because of scar tissue - it's because actual tissue is MISSING. So, until there is something that tells the body to "regrow what was there...and while you're at it, seamlessly integrate the new skin into the old skin...." then people with any type of scars are fucked.

 

I was excited by my convo with someone from Acell until I realized that pores reach into the subcutaneous tissue and ALL scar tissue must be removed in order to stimulate the regeneration response. That left me with images of people having all the skin of their cheek or chin or forehead removed in order to start fresh.

 

So, we don't need scarless healing. We need something that tells the body to replace perfectly what was taken away. But here's the thing - even if tissue regeneration was possible, is it only possible in an animal that has not yet scarred? Salamanders have the unique regeneration response and so I'm guessing they have NEVER scarred to begin with - but for humans and other animals who have scarred, perhaps true regeneration without scars is an impossibility. I don't know.

 

On to the "mind power" forums to see if maybe I can *will* beautiful skin into being.... That's really the only shit we have at this point.

It sounded like what that Acell employee said to you meant a couple of weeks of work, which is not to bad, especially when you have stopped producing acne with maturity... And if you have a face full of acne scars who knows within three year and three holidays you might be cured, your boss might even give you medical leave so you can do it in one go. Which is better than a life time of suffering.

Also this is anecdotal with no images but I put a link to someone on a skin forum who had actually healed stretch marks were he did not cut out the scar at the subcutaneous level.

I was excited by my convo with someone from Acell until I realized that pores reach into the subcutaneous tissue and ALL scar tissue must be removed in order to stimulate the regeneration response. That left me with images of people having all the skin of their cheek or chin or forehead removed in order to start fresh.

Hopefully it also means that instead of removal of scar tissue that if it is severely damaged that regeneration and a change in the tissue can occur. Hell if we could get healthy tissue to grow around the scar tissue somehow that is good enough for me ...sweep it under the rug!

Even if the tissue has to be removed and you have images of people with "all the skin on their cheek or chin" removed ...it would be down time but how long? When people get CO2 their downtime is like 2 weeks and then they are red for months, even a year. That is because they are replacing one scar with a CO2 scar which after it heals is red and it takes some time to lose that pigment because it is the SCAR changing color.

Now imagine if Acell does what it says it does....the being red or pink time would not exist because it is not a scar changing color.

It took that man how long to regrow part of his finger? What was the volume of material replaced? If the time of healing is based on volume of material ...depending on how much of the face you were regenerating (3mm deep by surface dimensions) ....well I'd say you would be good to go anywhere from 1-2 weeks.

Hopeseed,

I appreciate that you remain positive.... However, can you imagine the risk of excising even a nickle-sized portion of your facial skin? If it does not grow back seamlessly, you will be left with a pretty ghastly scar. What we don't know is if the body has a blueprint of the exact "landscape" of the skin, and if a chunk of it is taken away, can it grow back seamlessly...? The photo I found somewhere of the gunshot wound repaired by Acell - which appeared to be the size of a quarter, looked as if it had a pea-sized scar in the middle.

I don't know if it's possible. I think that tissue regeneration may not mean "perfect" regeneration - and that's what we need with scar elimination - perfect skin regeneration that follows some genetic blueprint.

I don't think acell is going to do it for us, I actually don't think we will see complete scar revision in our lifetime. However, I am still curious about the saliva thing, I did google some of what the derm wrote and it does look like saliva may be as good as some of the expensive creams which is a discovery. However, the scientists I read seem to want to produce "artificial" saliva, as to keep it sterile and controlled. I still think there is a consensus that the saliva in your mouth is not totally safe for wound healing, and the mouth is not sterile. If you are still posting Bulgarian derm, I have another question:

My toddler got a rash on his chest not long ago because he drools excessively and it created a type of ringworm from being on his skin so much. If drool is supposed to prevent this type of yeast problem, what happened?

I do appreciate your posting as I believe you do want to help

Tricia,

Some facts for you, they can regenerate a bladder in a lab, this man who regenerated this bladder claimed skin is the easiest organ to regenerate, he also claimed it all goes back to the scar... If you look at that this implies he must have beaten the scar to get a bladder. This guy also used an ECM;

Two months ago a Dr announced she had solved the mechanism of regeneration and scarless healing and if I remember correctly she manipulated all the signals in the lab and got scarless healing... this seems to me she knows the process. This seems to me in probability scar free healing is here with Acell, been here for a while and the mechanism is now understood, or something is around the corner...

Hopeseed,

 

I appreciate that you remain positive.... However, can you imagine the risk of excising even a nickle-sized portion of your facial skin? If it does not grow back seamlessly, you will be left with a pretty ghastly scar. What we don't know is if the body has a blueprint of the exact "landscape" of the skin, and if a chunk of it is taken away, can it grow back seamlessly...? The photo I found somewhere of the gunshot wound repaired by Acell - which appeared to be the size of a quarter, looked as if it had a pea-sized scar in the middle.

 

I don't know if it's possible. I think that tissue regeneration may not mean "perfect" regeneration - and that's what we need with scar elimination - perfect skin regeneration that follows some genetic blueprint.

I'm going to have to interupt this conversation, my apologies.

Regarding Acell from what I've seen it is like a course of antibiotics, you have to complete the course of the powder depending on the result you want; there is also different strands of powder (I once read that an ECM gets 95 to 99% of regeneration in a hole in a heart. This man made ECM was apparently less effective than acell, this gives me the impression it is 95 to 99.9% effective)...

There is different types of wounds and each type of wound based on its location mean a different degree of disipline of following the course

Wounds you would be likely to be more strict with:

the face you'd follow the course and you'd use the best powder,

a late stage diabetic ulcer that hasn't healed for years...

Regarding a diabetic ulcer: Look what a strick dose of acell over time done to a diabetic foot on TEDtalks, that just shows its regeneration capabilities, 'it regenerated a late stage diabetic foot,'...

Am I wrong?

Edit: I should have asked: is my jigsaw wrong here?

Hopeseed,

 

I appreciate that you remain positive.... However, can you imagine the risk of excising even a nickle-sized portion of your facial skin? If it does not grow back seamlessly, you will be left with a pretty ghastly scar. What we don't know is if the body has a blueprint of the exact "landscape" of the skin, and if a chunk of it is taken away, can it grow back seamlessly...? The photo I found somewhere of the gunshot wound repaired by Acell - which appeared to be the size of a quarter, looked as if it had a pea-sized scar in the middle.

 

I don't know if it's possible. I think that tissue regeneration may not mean "perfect" regeneration - and that's what we need with scar elimination - perfect skin regeneration that follows some genetic blueprint.

Hey holdontohope,

You have to stay positive and of course a procedure on the face would be risky ...but I don't see it being any more riskier than dermabrasion or CO2.

You are trying to compare a GUNSHOT WOUND to destroying a thin layer (no more than 2-3 mms) in a controlled fashion? Seems to me that if it does anything for a gun shot wound it has great potential for something less severe. The body has the blueprint ...it followed it when you were created and you can take a cell from your body ...take the DNA and put it into an egg cell and a womb and have a cloned human being ...which regenerates everything from one cell...certainly the potential is there.

More pieces to the puzzle?

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=puttin...n-living-tissue

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=tissue...eneration-matri

Perhaps we could have surgeons who were the equivalent of artists who could "spin" together new skin that meshes seamlessly on a microscopic level with the surrounding existing skin..... Hmmmmm....

Anyways, Hopeseed, you say 3mm at the most, but pores go into the subcutaneous layer, and any follicle that's ever been stretched with an "acne" infection may have scarring in the subcutaneous layers, which means we'd have to possibly "extract" those follicles from the subcutani, leaving, perhaps some unevenness in the exposed layer. But I suppose if regeneration truly regenerates, it should fill in all the gaps?

I dunno.

Anyways, Hopeseed, you say 3mm at the most, but pores go into the subcutaneous layer, and any follicle that's ever been stretched with an "acne" infection may have scarring in the subcutaneous layers, which means we'd have to possibly "extract" those follicles from the subcutani, leaving, perhaps some unevenness in the exposed layer. But I suppose if regeneration truly regenerates, it should fill in all the gaps?

 

I dunno.

Hey,

I thought you spoke with mike manning and he said he was VERY CERTAIN that he could remove scars on someone's face already? Maybe you could go ask for a second opinion to validate what he had said and also pose the problem of acne scars reaching to the subcutaneous layer of the skin.

Also, didnt Dr Speviack said something like he believed acell is to the 21st century what antibiotics was to the 20th century? That really is a LARGE CLAIM considering that antibiotics has saved millions of lives since it was first discovered. Though, I believe he knows what his talking about as he adviced hs brother then to apply the "pig powder" against the doctors who wanted to graft his finger. What do you know? Next thing, Lee Speviack's fingertip grew as if it was magic.

Tricia,

Thank you for the kind words. I will gladly answer your questions.

As I said previously, saliva in unhealthy individuals can pose problems. You mentioned the fact that human-to-human bites (we'll call this H:H bites from here on in) are considered dangerous because of anaerobic bacteria. This is absolutely true, however again we must conceptualize the circumstances under which such bacteria can cause serious problems.

1) A H:H bite usually penetrates far deeper than dermal tissue, sometimes reaching bone. Believe it or not, humans are no less capable of tearing muscles tissue, tendons, ligaments and even fracturing bones than our fellow carnivorous distant mammalian cousins. Our jaw muscles and the efficient levered positioning of the jaw's joint can exert tremendous pressure... That's why some mistakenly call the jaw muscles "the strongest in the body" when in fact it's not the muscles per se, but rather the operation of an exceptionally effective lever system. Also we have teeth that are designed to penetrate organic tissue with ease. So, if a human bites another human, they can effectively send various microorganisms directly into the blood stream in quantities that can overwhelm the bitees immune system. Please consider the size and depth of such a wound. Also consider the fact that it is not the saliva that causes the infection to begin with, but rather the bacteria present specifically at the base of teeth, usually introduced from the outside world by way of food. Of course under normal circumstances these bacteria are not particularly dangerous, because if they were you and I would have passed away many years ago. In fact, there wouldn't be humans living on this earth. Think about it, we have all accidentally bitten our lips or various parts of the oral mucosa, sometimes seriously and to substantial depth, yet here we are writing to each other. Thank your saliva for protecting you on these occasions, as the bacteria that worry you were right there on the same teeth that caused this mishap in the first place.

2) Bacteria (be them 'malicious' or not) aren't specifically dangerous in "balanced" and indeed minute quantities. What is more dangerous is a sterile environment (sterility). Sterility does not "train" the immune system. Sterility is in my opinion enemy #1 in the modern world, because humans are designed to co-exist with all kinds of bacteria. Some are in our GI tract, others are on our skin. They provide a constant stimulus to the immune system to be on the watch-out for potential infections without responding in an over exaggerated inflammatory fashion.

Envornmental sterility from an early age can cause serious problems that can compound into auto-immune diseases. I believe that the inflammatory reaction in the skin of people with acne is over exaggerated and based on a malfunction in the reactive mechanism(s) of the immune system, both on a general and visually localized level. In my humble professional opinion, it's symptom of an autoimmune disease, albeit generally less serious than other types such as those involved in arthritis, colitis, lupus, etc...

In most of our cases, we see this localized overreaction occur on our faces. That really sucks! Similarly, people with Crohn's disease have an inflammatory reaction likely triggered by a presently unknown bacterium in their ileum. The improper immune response to this bacterium is similarly over exaggerated and destructive to the small intestine's membrane. Here we have a connection to the leaky gut syndrome, which can cause even more havoc with the immune system.

In our horror story, the destruction of our dermal and sub-dermal tissues is also caused by the inflammatory immune system response. The bacteria that are implicated in causing acne are present in all people, yet generally healthy immune systems do not respond in the destructive and inflammatory manner that has left many of us with depressed scars...

Thus I believe that bacteria are not primarily the cause of acne, but rather a symptom of an ailing immune system. Call it an over reactive immune system if you like. Unfortunately the inflammatory response triggers a cascade of inter- and intra-cellular action-reaction sequences that evolve into prolonged negative feedback loops that try to prevent infection. That's the fancy way of saying that we're at the whims of a vicious cycle, because by proceeding under the "umbrella" of hyper-inflammation, these cyclical processes negate scarless repair in the afflicted tissue and the result is that which causes us so much grief even after healing has occurred. Then again, can you call it healing if the subsequent dermis is nothing like it used to be?

Basically I have evidence to believe that the use of disinfecting soaps on the dermis creates sterility and consequently more problems than it can ever hope to solve. In fact, this sterility treats a symptom and not a cause, whilst compounding the problem at hand by making the immune system "used" to the sterility and therefore overly reactive to any and all micro-organisms. Combine this with hormonal imbalances and sebum, and voila you have yourself a real problem.

A solution is to attempt to retrain the immune system. Lactobacillus bacteria are good for this. That's why yoghurt is good for you. So is colostrum. Actually these bacteria can still cause problems if they enter your blood stream in large quantities, but in your GI tract and on your skin, they actually have the effect of regulating the immune system. Indeed they "train" the immune system to behave the way it is supposed to behave. There are many bacteria that do this, even ones that are said to be overly malicious. It's just that they must be present in small quantities to have a positive impact on your organism, otherwise they are problematic at best and deadly in the worst cases. It's really all a balancing act...

So, when you place saliva on your skin, it actually introduces minute quantities of all sorts of surviving bacteria to the dermis. If you create micro-wounds, this will not be dangerous. We are not talking about a H:H bite here. Further still, the inflammatory response will be mitigated by the presence of the various growth factors and interleukins that I mentioned before. The localized immune response will thus be forced to transpire differently, which in itself is necessary for the repairing of traumatized tissue. Saliva can thus be beneficial for those still suffering from acne, but also for those trying to repair previous damage. If you read carefully what I've posted before, I never said that saliva will create scarless healing, but rather I stated that it is one of the ingredients necessary for scarless healing. I like to think of saliva as being a semi-blastema like fluid.

Someone stated that Salamanders and special strains of mice heal scarlessly yet they do not utilize saliva to do this. What that person forgot to realize is that these salamanders and mice all develop blastemas that help them heal the way that they do. Blastemas are sacks of fluid that contain growth factors, interleukins and other substances that aide in the chemical communication of instructions that stimulate the regeneration of lost tissue. In the case of the salamander that can be an amputated leg, eye, or just about anything else. In the case of the said mice, that is limited to more simple things such as an "amputated" piece of its ear.

I am in the process of developing artificial blastemas. What I want to do is create sacks of fluid that are attached to healthy skin yet surround a wound. These sacks are sealed by way of organic glue to the said healthy skin and thus keep the wound under water the whole time without leakage to surrounding tissue. However this is not simply water, but a fluid that from a compositional standpoint resembles saliva. It also resembles the fluid present in salamander blastemas. Remember that I said there is a similarity between the two in terms of GF and Ils present. Believe it or not, on a cellular level salamanders utilize pretty much the same chemical signals as do us humans.

I will be punch excising skin and then placing the artificial blastema overtop. I have hypothesized that this could fully restore the skin instead of leaving a hypotrophic scar. This constant submersion of the wound in the fluid away from air, will (a) not allow coagulation thus preventing the sealing of the wound and (b) it will stimulate a non-inflammatory rebuilding of the wound until it reaches the normal dermal level. Anyway, I probably shouldn't go into details here, because believe it or not other researchers could benefit from my statements without giving me credit. Then again I'm in this battle for all of us (that would be YOU and me) who either suffered or still suffer from this absolute SH*T that destroyed our self esteem, so I'm not afraid to share this potentially progressive information with you. Excuse the language, but sometimes you have to say, "what the f...!?!" Think of the movie that made Tom Cruise famous and you'll know what I mean.

BTW, I suggest you all focus your readings on the transforming growth factors (TGF) and FGF (fibroblast growth factors). This will give you plenty of objective hope for the beautiful skin you will have in the future. There are 23 identified families of fibroblast growth factors alone. Lately I've been enfatuated with acidic fibroblast growth factor (AFGF), but as of yet I'm not certain what role it will play in better wound healing. At present time, most theoretical healing models centre on most of these heparin binding proteins. Many of us believe that these growth factors in particular might give rise to scarless healing, yet others have shown evidence that they are generally absent in the foetus. We'll see... Unfortunately sometimes bureaucracy stifles scientifc creativity and thus delays speedy discoveries that in turn become revolutionary therapies. When we can communicate fluently with fibroblasts by way of these GFs will we possibly have a total solution to our hypotrophic scars. But let's not forget the other growth factors I haven't mentioned as they too are extremely important for our cause.

Now for you other question:

As for your toddler, I imagine his/her skin is sensitive to the mildly alkaline nature of saliva in combination with digestive enzymes. This is quite normal and in my opinion nothing to worry about... It could also be due to the micro organisms present, but again this to me is what I call "positive immune stimulus" rather than the contrary. A related observation and hypothesis must be mentioned here: A scientist once said that the act of toddlers sucking on their fingers is an evolutionary behavioural condition that's encoded in every individual (instinct), as an efficient mechanism to introduce various bacteria to the GI tract. Thus from an early age, human babies lick everything and anything, including their fingers that touch anything and everything, as a way to "train" their developing immune systems. Unfortunately in today's world, there are poisonous chemicals on just about everything, so this behaviour is discouraged. Unless of course one lives on some deserted island away from chemical pollutants like our ancestors once did, then it would indeed be encourageable... Funny isn't it? Sometimes I feel our technology has partially degressed our civilization. Perhaps now only more technology will allow us to overcome the problems we have created for ourselves.

Also I realize that there will be various people that will argue with me about what I have said in this post and that is OK with me. As long as I feel that even one person has received benefit from me in the form of new knowledge then I will be happy. Finally, please excuse me for not articulating myself in a good manner. I am a little tired and I'm sure my post is too long and full of grammatical errors.

Good day...

Hi Bulgarian Derm.,

have you ever tried this method on yourself and got any positive results for old depressed scars from it? I would like to try this method, because at this moment I feel really desperate. I tried many treatments(affirm laser, retin-A, tca) and every time the results were disappointing. I don't want to get a further disappointment, because to deal with this is harder than to do nothing. Since that I'm very sceptical when I hear about a new treatment. Thats is the reason why I asked you the question about the breakup of scar tissue with saliva in my last posting again. Unfortunately you didn't respond to my question again. Last attempt: Please tell me your oppinion to my question. Nevertheless I thank you very much for your complex posts and new sights regarding this forum.

Hi Bulgarian Derm.,

 

have you ever tried this method on yourself and got any positive results for old depressed scars from it? I would like to try this method, because at this moment I feel really desperate. I tried many treatments(affirm laser, retin-A, tca) and every time the results were disappointing. I don't want to get a further disappointment, because to deal with this is harder than to do nothing. Since that I'm very sceptical when I hear about a new treatment. Thats is the reason why I asked you the question about the breakup of scar tissue with saliva in my last posting again. Unfortunately you didn't respond to my question again. Last attempt: Please tell me your oppinion to my question. Nevertheless I thank you very much for your complex posts and new sights regarding this forum.

Hi ChangeLife,

I apologize for not having responded specifically to your question.

I did have benefit from medium depth needling (~0.75mm) and the utilization of saliva. I also conducted a study with various patients.

For treatment evaluation purposes, we actually chose three primary scars on each person and recorded shadow length measurements. Four observers each recorded the shadow length under the exact same lighting. Lighting was focused on the skin at a very small angle to the vertical plain on the side of the face. Thus shadow length was maximized, and thereby any change in scar depth would be likewise easier to note in the shadow length. We took the average of these measurements and then did the whole process all over again at the end. We also made a crude contraption to attempt to instil maximal objectivity. Basically a subject would place their chin on a concave "chin rest" and his/her forehead would press against a plastic grid. In this manner we could be certain that facial positioning relative to the light source was exactly the same pre and post treatment.

(BTW, for my next study I will attempt to map facial skin with a cast taken from a patient's face. The cast will be used to create a facial replica that will then be compared to a post treatment facial replica. This may give more insight into overall depth improvement as there is no colour, movement, etc to cast doubt on objectivity. I haven't tried this yet, so I'm not sure it will work, but it may prove beneficial.)

Anyway back to the topic:

1) Everyone experienced an improvement in skin texture.

2) Everyone experienced a reduction in acne scar depth, as measured by relative length of shadow under strong lighting.

Over the course of the study (3 months), there was not total elimination of acne scars per se. Nonetheless, subjects expressed the desire to continue treatment on a regular basis at home.

Further still, we had control group that utilized a peptide cream.

Another control group utilized a relatively expensive cream containing growth factors and interleukins.

Those subjected to the saliva treatment were more satisfied than either control group. That's the most important factor to note here. From the beginning I stated that saliva is free and just as effective if not more so than expensive products.

I also suggest you try something that may help you further. Find a way to submerge your skin in colostrum solution. Perhaps you can create a contraption that will keep your skin literally under this 'colostrum liquid' for at least an hour a day. What you‚„ll essentially be doing is simulating a blastema-like wet environment that is full of needed chemical signals. You do not have the materials that I have in the lab so it will be hard for you to do, but there is a way. Where there is a will, there is a way.

After your skin has been submerged in this liquid for over 50 minutes it will become very permeable. This in combination with the micro-wounds will allow a great portion of growth factors to enter your skin. As a bonus, the micro-wounds will not close with coagulated blood, but rather remain open for a longer period of time and repairing under a suppressed inflammatory response. This is a very good thing! The less inflammation, the better. (The reason I mentioned colostrum is that it too contains important growth factors and it's easy to mix with water.)

Thus you will:

a) apply ample saliva to your skin

b) micro-wound the skin

c) apply saliva again

d) submerge skin in colostrum solution for more than an hour

Honestly, the (d) part has me stumped since you‚„ll have to do with over the counter materials. I will think about this and get back to you.

I hope this information helps. As I said, I will ponder about how you can make a simulated "at home" blastema.

More pieces to the puzzle?

 

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=puttin...n-living-tissue

 

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=tissue...eneration-matri

 

Perhaps we could have surgeons who were the equivalent of artists who could "spin" together new skin that meshes seamlessly on a microscopic level with the surrounding existing skin..... Hmmmmm....

 

Anyways, Hopeseed, you say 3mm at the most, but pores go into the subcutaneous layer, and any follicle that's ever been stretched with an "acne" infection may have scarring in the subcutaneous layers, which means we'd have to possibly "extract" those follicles from the subcutani, leaving, perhaps some unevenness in the exposed layer. But I suppose if regeneration truly regenerates, it should fill in all the gaps?

 

I dunno.

I get an error notice when I try to visit your links...

I've been thinking about your problem. And I've thought of a metaphorical answer.

ECM is a scaffold that allows the plastering/brickwork of regeneration to build instead of the scarring response.

This is what I reckon you would need to mechanically do. If you skim a house wall and leave lumps, you will get lumps in the plaster, if you skim a flat surface your plaster will take a shape that has a flat surface you want...

Also small holes are easier to skim...

Now regarding that metaphor, this is what I think would need to be done with 3mm holes in your skin wall.

You use the best material for this tiny wound,

You have two options, create a mould of the hole and then mould an ecm, or you use the powder... I believe because you have a bone backing beneath the skin you would use the powder... (Who knows you may need an engineering arangement of a mould and powder above the mould?)

you put the ECM powder in the wound

you skim so it is flat, you put the silicone cover seal over the wound, to keep the ecm flat.

The next day you remove the seal to check the wound, removing the seal might disturb the ECM scaffold, if that happens you skim ECM powder into the wound creating a flat surface.

You complete the course, and I predict (using the hole in the heart matrix to measure against, were it had a 95% regeneration)your wound will be 98 to 99.9% regenerated to a flat surface you need. Any slight imperfections may be corrected with light dermabrasion. But I reckon if the skimmer skims well, you wont need that... Also you have the option of new ECM revisions...

Bulgarian Derm,

Thanks for the explanation, I have heard colostrum can be beneficial to skin. Your studies sound interesting. I think if one wanted to submerge their needled areas in the colostrum they could tape a 2nd skin burn gel pad over it and leave it for an hour. This is what Dr. Yarborough does with his dermabraded patients to keep them moist for a few days. It is just a moist pad. I may get a dermaroller eventually and try it out.

Changelife, let us know if you try it. I have always liked natural products and you can't get any more natural than this. Maybe in time we will get the answers we need for our scars.

Bulgarian Derm,

 

Thanks for the explanation, I have heard colostrum can be beneficial to skin. Your studies sound interesting. I think if one wanted to submerge their needled areas in the colostrum they could tape a 2nd skin burn gel pad over it and leave it for an hour. This is what Dr. Yarborough does with his dermabraded patients to keep them moist for a few days. It is just a moist pad. I may get a dermaroller eventually and try it out.

 

Changelife, let us know if you try it. I have always liked natural products and you can't get any more natural than this. Maybe in time we will get the answers we need for our scars.

Also I have heard of people taking acidophilus powder right out of the pills and applying it to a wound to help it heal faster. You can mix it with water too. I guess it goes back to the idea of getting the immune system to rev up with the bacteria.

This is for Bulgarian Derm....

How do you think large open wounds 10-12 cm across would fair in healing? there are many many people with acne scars that cover their entire cheeks, etc. Also, what say you about scars that go past the dermis and into the subcutaneous tissue? Do you think it'd be possible to excise all of the skin on someone's cheek or forehead and then regrow that skin without scarring if it was covered with an artificial blastema that you speak of?

Thanks!

More pieces to the puzzle?

 

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=puttin...n-living-tissue

 

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=tissue...eneration-matri

 

Perhaps we could have surgeons who were the equivalent of artists who could "spin" together new skin that meshes seamlessly on a microscopic level with the surrounding existing skin..... Hmmmmm....

 

Anyways, Hopeseed, you say 3mm at the most, but pores go into the subcutaneous layer, and any follicle that's ever been stretched with an "acne" infection may have scarring in the subcutaneous layers, which means we'd have to possibly "extract" those follicles from the subcutani, leaving, perhaps some unevenness in the exposed layer. But I suppose if regeneration truly regenerates, it should fill in all the gaps?

 

I dunno.

Well if you look at acell's website ....one of the latests scientific papers they have is that they have been able to develop the Acell matrix into a gel ... The rationale behind the gel is that you will be able to use it in three dimensions. Also there is a lot of research going on about trying to create a "seamless" graft.

More pieces to the puzzle?

 

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=puttin...n-living-tissue

 

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=tissue...eneration-matri

 

Perhaps we could have surgeons who were the equivalent of artists who could "spin" together new skin that meshes seamlessly on a microscopic level with the surrounding existing skin..... Hmmmmm....

 

Anyways, Hopeseed, you say 3mm at the most, but pores go into the subcutaneous layer, and any follicle that's ever been stretched with an "acne" infection may have scarring in the subcutaneous layers, which means we'd have to possibly "extract" those follicles from the subcutani, leaving, perhaps some unevenness in the exposed layer. But I suppose if regeneration truly regenerates, it should fill in all the gaps?

 

I dunno.

 

Well if you look at acell's website ....one of the latests scientific papers they have is that they have been able to develop the Acell matrix into a gel ... The rationale behind the gel is that you will be able to use it in three dimensions. Also there is a lot of research going on about trying to create a "seamless" graft.

 

another piece to the puzzle.

for those of you who couldn't look at those links, look these two article titles up on google verbatim:

"Putting the Squeeze on Nanothreads to Spin Living Tissue"

"Tissue-Regeneration Matrix Could Be Spun from Cell-Size Nanothreads"

Regarding these two articles as well as all our talk about Acell and seamless grafts, etc.....

I think regeneration (i.e. regenerating complex tissue structures like muscle, fat, and skin) will come (and has come in large part with Acell) before scarless healing. HOWEVER, I believe that scarless healing is a true possibility, but will only be possible when all we know and will be learning about regeneration is put into an ARTIST's hands. That's right. An artist. Plastic surgeons - the ones who truly deliver astonishing results are more than just "cutters" and "stitchers"...they are artists. They are sculptors with fine motor skills and an acutely trained eye for detail. Scarless healing is not about making something functional again, it's about making something beautiful again, down to the smallest detail. And much of the medical community finds it a success if they can stitch half a human face onto a woman who's been disfigured by a dog bite ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11198533/ --- and this woman says she now looks like everyone else?). That's getting something up and running, which is better than no face at all, I suppose. But that's not giving a woman her face back.

Scarless healing will require the most deft of plastic surgeons to utilize a combination of techniques to literally sculpt the skin, on a cellular/microscopic level, to have an aesthetically appealing surface. Perhaps it will require a combined approach of taking a 3-D model of the face, sculpting a scaffold for the skin, placing it on the face, then on a microscopic level, lay down skin cells to fall perfectly in line with existing skin. Or perhaps the surgeon/sculptor would squeeze those nanothreads of skin cells over an open wound created by excising scar tissue.... and kind of fill everything so it sits level with existing skin on a microscopic level. I dunno. I don't know exactly how it will be done, but true regeneration, when it comes to the face, my friends, will only come when doctors who are also artists insist on delivering finely tuned results. I'm not making perfect sense right now because I'm just too tired to care..... but you get the gist, right?

edit.

This is for Bulgarian Derm....

 

How do you think large open wounds 10-12 cm across would fair in healing? there are many many people with acne scars that cover their entire cheeks, etc. Also, what say you about scars that go past the dermis and into the subcutaneous tissue? Do you think it'd be possible to excise all of the skin on someone's cheek or forehead and then regrow that skin without scarring if it was covered with an artificial blastema that you speak of?

 

Thanks!

Hi holdontohope,

I believe that it would be dangerous to do unless I was certain the patient would end up with better skin when the process was over. What scares me is overwhelming the immune system with such a large open wound. On the other hand, if everything is properly controlled theoretically it could work.

BTW, like the rest of you I have been following developments in healing techniques and technologies. I noticed that you are all very interested in Acell Inc. I am not sure the articles about digit regrowth are very objective, since for there to officially be such an occurrence, one would have to regrow bone, joints, cartilage, tendons etc in a perfectly organized manner. That said, their product seems impressive nonetheless and who knows it might actually be very effective for acne scar removal.

I am interested in this because from what I gather, this powder or their standard ECM, contain various chemical signals (quite likely a complex combinations of proteins such as growth factors) that once again stimulate localized tissue to begin the process of regeneration. This in effect is something like a dry blastema, and thus both different and similar to what I am trying to do.

So, I decided to do a search in google in order to see if anyone has attempted excising/abrading dermal tissue, followed by an application of the Acell powder to that specific area. I ended up finding something that I find very reassuring and I am optimistic Acell's rather simple product is indeed effective in rebuilding soft tissue.

The search result lead me to a forum where people discuss how to heal stretch marks. They are also quite difficult to treat. Anyway, the posts from a brave member at this forum are shown below.

His first post:

"acell.com - I have mentioned their stuff before. I obtained a small sample of their powdered product. Bottom line...

strong tca then small amount of powder mixed with emu oil and covered with healing film = stretch mark totally healed.

This is a much better method than the sucessful one I outlined in a previous post and I think this is likely to work for a much broader range of people. Problem is obtaining product from acell as their current product is vet grade and I'm not sure they sell to just anyone. The sample I obtained I got via a contact who sadly cannot provide more."

His second post:

"My sample came from a contact that works in a vet office, but i doubt i will be able to obtain more from this source.

The way this stuff works requires that the area to be treated be open, you can't just put it on closed skin. This is where the TCA comes in to prep the area to be treated and the emu oil as well as providing a base for the powder also carries it into the skin. Resolution of treated area is complete. The healed length is like baby skin, and this is consistent with what others have reported. It's like the cellular clock has been reset in that area. Regarding price it should be inexpesnive in terms of production, but not sure what it will actually cost as an end product. It's not actually all that complex to produce, maybe an enterprising biomed student will step forward."

Since I'm not sure I can post a link here so I'll instead tell you how to find this forum. Perform the following:

Search in Google: acell vet tca acid scar stretch mark

As I said, their technology seems to have a similar function to blastema fluid. I find the addition of emu oil to the Acell powder as a liquid carrier to the wound very interesting as it creates a similar effect of keeping the wound moist and infused with the ecm's growth factors in a comparable way to the artificial blastema I mentioned in earlier posts. This is good news since this product could be available to you in the near future. I don't know how much it costs, but I imagine that it may be reasonable considering the source.

Nonetleless, you can force your skin to rebuild with an artifical blastema full of colostrum and saliva derived growth factors. I've been thinking that you may be able to do this at home with the circular pad, organic glue and colostomy pouch that are used by patients with portions of their colon and or ileum removed. I however do not recommend you use TCA acid on your face. If you ever attempt something like this, please do a test on a small area before you risk damage to a large portion of your facial skin.

Changelife, let us know if you try it. I have always liked natural products and you can't get any more natural than this. Maybe in time we will get the answers we need for our scars.

You are right. The good thing is that this is not only natural but it also gratis. Hmm, i think i will try it on one small scar in my face which I got from an injury years ago (it is also slight intended, nearly compareable to some of my acne scars) . The side effect of this treatment dry skin and thats the reason why I will try it only on a very small area. I will give you and bulgarian derm. my test results in a few weeks. But my results will be subjective, because I'm not in the mood to make bad-light pictures of my scars, sorry.To be honest, my expectations are very low...