Acne.org Products
Day 13 of Enalapril
No changes at all really. The hypertrophic scars still redden throughout the day and lighten considerably to an almost white texture when i do a lot of exercise. they look like they will be a bright white once they finally die down.
given the failure of juvista as a scarless healing method, im starting to have strong doubts about enalapril. so im keen to hear what your views are on all of this.
i might not respond for a few days because i am going into care. my family found out about my plans to commit suicide and arent coping. They feel its best i am away for a bit.
Alas I will respond when I return...If i return!
Are you scars hypopigmented?
thanks for the response seabs. its a bit of a relief to read what you wrote about you you and juvista. i didnt notice that to be honest.
i got my first response from the congestive heart failure board a guy who has been on it for some time said hes never noticed any changes in his scarring whilst being on it. he started doing research and found the same article that we have.
im sure he hasnt been looking at his scarring to compare, but then again its getting a little tiresome thinking up reasons to support why no one isnt seeing anything.
The 2009 captopril study has photos that show results over 6weeks. This may suggest ace inhibitor treatment works better when applied locally in a cream or solution instead of orally?
Local application makes more sense, as one pill orally probably affect the whole bodies angiotensin mechanism first (a whole bodies worth of angiotensin suppression), maybe with a bias to internal organs over extremities etc. Whereas an ace inhibitor applied locally on skin will have a bias towards the tissue it first touches (just the local angiotensin mechanism suppression).
But I do think the 2006 enalapril study is genuine, also to back it up there are more studies out there that show ace inhibitors remove scarring.
seabs, what you are saying makes sense. what comes to mind is, other than the 2006 oral study and then the later one where it was tested as a topical on the rabbit ears, then as a topical on the hand (the one with pics), what other studies are out there?
losartan is another that shows ace inhibitors remove scar.
as for the topical, id love to get my hands on that - but this seems difficult. im taking it wed need to find captopril and then turn it into a paste and add it to a carrier cream or is there a place that already does that?
Regarding captopril it is soluable, and I'm sure I've seen that if you add ascorbic acid to the solution it helps the captopril last longer.
I do not know how you'd go about making a cream, though on the captopril study I'm sure it mentions that the the captopril was 5% of the cream.
Maybe the watery solution would work just as good as a cream?
i agree the oral would have a harder job working exactly where wed want it to work. i thought about this on a walk last night...then i kept thinking well im young and healthy, i shouldnt have anything else it would need to work on in my body - other than the scars...so it might know to be directed there...of course this is only fantasy thinking.
im thinking a combination of both would be desirable. bottom up and a top down approach
The ace inhibitor doesn't directly tackle scarring though, it does it indirectly by inhibiting angiotensin I from converting to angiotensin II. It then stops or kills the fibroblast proliferation that makes scarring.
An oral dose will still affect the angiotensin on all your tissues. This means if you still took it orally it would still deal with the angiotensin mechanism in all your tissues before it got to your scarring.
Wereas on the otherhand if you took it locally solely on the scar it would affect the angiotensin mechanism locally were your scarring is. And the angiotensin mechanism around your scar would receive the more of the dose.
Mr President, you have a great advantage, you are very young even, surely before what imagine you will find a solution because there is always developments on this issue.
Keeps your faith, in the therapy with enalapril and other chances, as bee venom among other things very good that walk by the air.
Perhaps we learn to be happy slightly forgetting this item, and we that the solution this coming, without thinking both in it.
Hello I'm new to this thread and would like to contribute some of my treatments I have gone through dealing with Keloid scars. For the past year I have tried bleomycin injections with decent results. What I have notice is that it breaks scar tissue down and seems to slow or even stop proliferation of scar tissue! Side effects is burning pain that last for 2 days after injection followed by swelling that last for seven days! Each time after the swelling goes down the scar always becomes less bulky! Its a very slow and painful process. The last injections however i suffered bad side effects! This was about 8 injections in! So I've decided to stop! I have done research on all of the following including the failed Juvista! What caught my attention was a the study of 5% captopril! My dermatologist and I have done research on this drug as well and decided to give it a try. He ordered the drug and sent to a pharmacy where it can be properly compounded! My solution is not cold cream but is mixed with 70% ethanol and one other substance.. but the ethanol acts as the vehicle! I am on my 5th day of topical 5% captopril! Yes it is to early to tell but so far I've noticed less itching, pain, scaling, and discomfort! I have scaring behind my ears and on both sides of my face. There is a small bump on my ear that dramatically looks different from last week! It could be a sign of hope but to early to tell. I will keep you all posted weekly on any changes!
unfortunately my skin and my mood has gone downhill since coming to this site and my increasing self consciousness and desire to improve it, let to my severe burns and consequent scars. unfortunately the limitations that places on me is something i cant live with.
What kind of limitations? 
ive had another response from someone using oral ace inhibitors for over 3 years. they have a scar located over their heart - from surgery to help address their congestive heart failure. they havent seen their scar reduce, but they again werent looking for it.
they noticed the idea was very interesting though and it seems like they are all now going to read the study.
EDIT: I got yet another response from someone who specifically took enalapril. they have a scar that runs all the way up their arm and have been taking enalapril since mid last year and she says shes seen absolutely no change in her scar whatsoever.
so in summary, theres been 3 people ive asked who have been using ace inhibitors in the long term with scars from surgery and all have seen no results
I still think the report is genuine.
But it looks to me that you'd be better off putting more dosage on the local angiotensin mechanism with a cream etc. like the 2009 study.
Hello I'm new to this thread and would like to contribute some of my treatments I have gone through dealing with Keloid scars. For the past year I have tried bleomycin injections with decent results. What I have notice is that it breaks scar tissue down and seems to slow or even stop proliferation of scar tissue! Side effects is burning pain that last for 2 days after injection followed by swelling that last for seven days! Each time after the swelling goes down the scar always becomes less bulky! Its a very slow and painful process. The last injections however i suffered bad side effects! This was about 8 injections in! So I've decided to stop! I have done research on all of the following including the failed Juvista! What caught my attention was a the study of 5% captopril! My dermatologist and I have done research on this drug as well and decided to give it a try. He ordered the drug and sent to a pharmacy where it can be properly compounded! My solution is not cold cream but is mixed with 70% ethanol and one other substance.. but the ethanol acts as the vehicle! I am on my 5th day of topical 5% captopril! Yes it is to early to tell but so far I've noticed less itching, pain, scaling, and discomfort! I have scaring behind my ears and on both sides of my face. There is a small bump on my ear that dramatically looks different from last week! It could be a sign of hope but to early to tell. I will keep you all posted weekly on any changes!
Please do.
thanks again seabs. i found the summary for the losartan article you were talking about. so the scars were still there, but were "less resistant and had a lower collagen deposition". in that way it almost sounds like its following the scarless healing trend, rather than the scar free healing.
in terms of captopril, yeah i remember seeing the 5% strength too. TBH id rather it in a cream base, rather than a liquid base, as i find them easier to keep on teh skin for longer periods...it might just be a personal thing tho.
Mr President, the study I was looking at was to do with Livers BTW.
Also scar tissue is a high collagen deposition... And low collagen deposition is normal tissue.
Both scarred tissue and non scarred tissue have the exact same collagen,
it is just the scarred tissue collagen is overexpressed were the fibers join up and block off regeneration. And the non scarred tissue has collagen that is not over expressed were the intercellular cells can the move through the collagen fibers to create site specific tissue, e.g. sweat glands, hair follicles...
I know we've been discussing topics related to Scar Free healing but has anyone seen anything else on the subscision suction method published in the journal of the European Academy of Dermatology and Venereology ? The method looks promising as reports of 80% improvement were seen in patients who suctioned scars 3 days after subscision and continued until the improvement was seen. i found a photo of the technique but i can't make out the instrument used for suction.
I mean 80% is pretty damn good. 
I just thought i'd try to lift your spirits and remind you all that there is more than one way to achieve our desired result. we'll keep looking. 
Mr President : That's great that you're taking the steps with the topical captopril ! 
it
would be magic if the captopril can eat the fibrous
tissue away..there
has to be something known to mankind that does this..how great would that be? to apply the stuff and know it's working.
the report that i read regarding the subscision suction method involved all types of scars. in the cases where suction was performed consistently during the healing phase ( 3-5 days following subscision) there was at least 80 % improvement in depth and size.
"happiness always lies in the future..never in the past." 
Also from my point of view, this TGFB123 is a belief system that has been unwittingly reinforced IMO. All it is is 'maybe' a signal that a certain type of healing is happening at a stage in healing. E.g. If you think of a spedometer in a car it tells you how fast the car is travelling, however if you break the dashboard and move the spedo to 120, that does not make the cars speed move to 120, it just means you've adjusted the spedometer. The same logic goes with TFGB123 IMO.
I would agree with this. Fact of the matter is we don't know everything. We keep uncovering certain parts of the picture but we don't understand them fully and many parts are still unknown. We don't fully understand transforming growth factors. At face value they seem to hold the answer, but as we are now finding out it seems to go deeper than this. As seabs said TGF's could just be a signal as to what is going on underneath the surface. We can increase TGF-B3 or decrease TGF-B1 but are we just falsely 'moving the speedo to 120' (to use seabs analogy)? Who knows?
The following link I think explains our current understanding pretty well. I'm sure it's been posted before, in fact I think I've posted it myself in the past. Just read the first article and ignore all the other sales rubbish on the page. I've seen this article posted on many websites and it has nothing to do with whatever the website is trying to sell.
http://www.abateit.com/scarless-repair/
ive had another response from someone using oral ace inhibitors for over 3 years. they have a scar located over their heart - from surgery to help address their congestive heart failure. they havent seen their scar reduce, but they again werent looking for it.
they noticed the idea was very interesting though and it seems like they are all now going to read the study.
EDIT: I got yet another response from someone who specifically took enalapril. they have a scar that runs all the way up their arm and have been taking enalapril since mid last year and she says shes seen absolutely no change in her scar whatsoever.
so in summary, theres been 3 people ive asked who have been using ace inhibitors in the long term with scars from surgery and all have seen no results
This is very disheartening. I just don't understand how you can go from one extreme to the other. On one hand we have a credible research paper stating full resolution in a patient with multiple scars, on the other hand we have a number of people who have used ACE inhibitors for some time (including myself) who have seen absolutely nothing. How can there be such a huge difference, it's such a contradiction. This is reminding me of the whole Dr Derry iodine application scenario, where we find a research paper stating it gets rid of scars then when a number of people try it it doesn't really work. The thing that's confusing me even more is that this research paper seems far more credible. Not only that but there are many other research papers that talk about fibrosis in various organs that seem to be very positive as well. ACE inhibitors clearly do decrease TGF-B1 but why oh why are we not seeing any improvement from people?
Why is our anecdotal evidence completely contradicting the research papers?
I still think the report is genuine.
But it looks to me that you'd be better off putting more dosage on the local angiotensin mechanism with a cream etc. like the 2009 study.
I believe the research paper is genuine as well, or maybe I'm just hoping it is. You may well be right about topical application being better than oral, but the research paper used oral enalapril and full resolution in scarring was still achieved. Why are we not seeing these same results? It seems logical that topical application would be better, but still, the paper used oral and got results. If the paper was legitimate then I should be getting at least something in the way of results, as should the other people Mr President has mentioned. We aren't. But the scientists/doctors have absolutely no reason to lie. It just doesn't make any sense.
Also from my point of view, this TGFB123 is a belief system that has been unwittingly reinforced IMO. All it is is 'maybe' a signal that a certain type of healing is happening at a stage in healing. E.g. If you think of a spedometer in a car it tells you how fast the car is travelling, however if you break the dashboard and move the spedo to 120, that does not make the cars speed move to 120, it just means you've adjusted the spedometer. The same logic goes with TFGB123 IMO.
I would agree with this. Fact of the matter is we don't know everything. We keep uncovering certain parts of the picture but we don't understand them fully and many parts are still unknown. We don't fully understand transforming growth factors. At face value they seem to hold the answer, but as we are now finding out it seems to go deeper than this. As seabs said TGF's could just be a signal as to what is going on underneath the surface. We can increase TGF-B3 or decrease TGF-B1 but are we just falsely 'moving the speedo to 120' (to use seabs analogy)? Who knows?
The following link I think explains our current understanding pretty well. I'm sure it's been posted before, in fact I think I've posted it myself in the past. Just read the first article and ignore all the other sales rubbish on the page. I've seen this article posted on many websites and it has nothing to do with whatever the website is trying to sell.
http://www.abateit.com/scarless-repair/
That is scarless healing. And they are describing in detail scarless healing and describing the measurements that highlight different types of healing.
The way I understand it. Regarding scar free healing and scarring.
These are facts,
Scar has these elements:
What causes the scar
-------------------------
Decorin leaves the wound.
fibroblasts proliferate
A lot of These fibroblasts differentiate into myofibroblasts another type of fibroblast.
The myofibroblasts produce collagen and excess collagen.
What inhibits fibroblasts?
----------------------------------
Decorin
The duration of scarring
----------------------------
Any wound that heals up within 2weeks usually heals without a scar.
And the scarring process lasts upto 12 months and longer in scars like keloids.
Usually it takes 12month for decorin levels to reach pre wound levels.
Scarring What Is It
----------------------
Scarring is collagen over expression that blocks off regeneration. Again the over expression usually happens when the wound takes over two weeks to heal. I'm using burns as an example here, in burns if a wound takes less than two weeks then generally there will not be a scar.
It usually happens after a wound is created in tissue. Immediately the body creates collagen to fill the tissue defecit, and after the deficit is filled in with collagen, the bodies fibroblasts then continue to over express collagen in the collagen creating packed dense collagen. This over expression then blocks up the collagen and creates a wall which stops regeneration.
lapis - limitations - i suppose those that come from not looking like a normal person anymore and instead as a burn victim...e.g. less job prospects and fewer relationships, at least compared to a few months agoif i could find a painless method i would, but despite all my researching, they are all painful atm
A burn victim? Really? Is it that bad? 
Come on man, it can't be that bad...? I think a lot of the times (and I know I've said this on a number of occasions people but what the hey)people with scars tend to blow things up in their minds. I mean you saying that you have a few scars and that you now all of a sudden look like no less than a burn victim makes me think that you blow things up too. I mean I found that many people told me that they hardly noticed my scar or weren't bothered by it while I was thinking to myself that I looked awful. So, dude, I'm sure that you'll find the same. But that's maybe something you'll have to find out for yourself in time. All I can say is that having a few scars really shouldn't mean that the quality of your life will be dramatically decreased. Me e.g. I'm going out job hunting not thinking about my scar 99% of the time. I'm just sayin'. lol 
I know we've been discussing topics related to Scar Free healing but has anyone seen anything else on the subscision suction method published in the journal of the European Academy of Dermatology and Venereology ? The method looks promising as reports of 80% improvement were seen in patients who suctioned scars 3 days after subscision and continued until the improvement was seen. i found a photo of the technique but i can't make out the instrument used for suction.
I mean 80% is pretty damn good.
I just thought i'd try to lift your spirits and remind you all that there is more than one way to achieve our desired result. we'll keep looking.
I've considered subsicion before but this is the first time I've heard about subsicion + suction. What/how do they suck then? lol
"happiness always lies in the future..never in the past."
lol Don't forget about the present. 
lapis - limitations - i suppose those that come from not looking like a normal person anymore and instead as a burn victim...e.g. less job prospects and fewer relationships, at least compared to a few months ago
A burn victim? Really? Is it that bad?
haha, your a good person lapis. the fact you only have one scar is a good thing. yeah with the burns, im not sure if im blowing it out of perspective. i had some ice pick scars that i tca peeled. most became hypertrophic scars, nothing major - but i have a few rather thick ones too. They are flat - but very noticable and large...thats why im hoping I can try and reduce them. I feel like a burn victim and if you saw pics of me several months ago, ud have thought the same thing too
Just wanted to say that I am no way trivializing your condition. I can relate all too well. I mean years ago I was actually depressed partly due to the accident I was in and the scar I ended up with because of it. It's of course very normal to be upset and sad because of what happened to us but we gotta draw the line somewhere you know? haha Where we say "Ok, enough is enough already. Let's get on with things!". To be saddened by it (for a while) is normal but you shouldn't think things like "Oh now people will shun me and and nobody will hire me." as that's absolutely not true. Take it from me. I assure you.
Tanks for the reply seabs.
Mr President said:Oh, ive ordered some captopril tooI suppose with the enalapril and all that im unsure whether it will make it all go away. I know it in theory wont, but i guess im big on the fact something out there probably could get rid of scars and why couldnt this be it
Would you mind sharing who this seller is? Does he have a website? I'd be interested in trying out captopril I just can't seem to find anyone who sells it in a solution/cream. Attacking the problem both inside and out seems like a decent idea, at least it covers all bases.
I got my enalapril from [removed] if anyone's interested.
Thanks Mr President.
I tried emailing Dr Lam to press him for more info on whether he's seen any improvement with captopril use. He said "i'm sorry but i just don't have a big enough patient base to claim any results one way or the other. sorry again."
I honestly could't care less how small his patient base is, even if he's only using it on one patient it would be interesting to hear of his experience. That way it would help us decide whether it was worth spending the time, effort and money pursuing this. I can understand why he doesn't want to say though, as a doctor you can't really make claims when you have insufficient evidence.
I don't really know what to think about ACE inhibitors any more.
p.s has anyone heard of 5-fluorouracil? I read a researach paper about captopril used on rabbits ears and in the discussion part it discusses other possible scar treatments. It says "5-fluorouracil, a pyrimidine antimetabolite, is recommended through the inhibition of fibroblast proliferation by blocking DNA synthesis and transcription." I believe it's used in the treatment of cancer but I've never heard of it being used on scars before.
I don't know if this has ever been posted so I figured I would. It's just a cool read.
http://www.scars1.com/news/New_Insights_in..._Scar_Formation
thanks for the links.
Yeah, I thought it was interesting as they say they did this:
The inventors have demonstrated that application of a purified protein induces fibroblast senescence through interaction with a specific integrin and heparin sulfate proteoglycans (HSPGs), and upregulates the expression of antifibrotic genes to restrict fibrosis during tissue repair.
Is it another piece of the puzzle? Was it the breakthrough we hoped for? I guess time will tell.
ah and the era of desperation begins, lol
i think everyones getting a littls sick of talking about it, esp since theres no new info or any real positive info.
as for 5-fluorouracil, it sounds like the thing used to inject keloids isnt it? but too much of it causes skin atrophy. i think i shall stop posting in here, its getting a little depressing.
Yes I bought some captopril but I haven't touched it yet. I dont trust my source as it seemed like a cloned website.
Thanks Mr President.
I tried emailing Dr Lam to press him for more info on whether he's seen any improvement with captopril use. He said "i'm sorry but i just don't have a big enough patient base to claim any results one way or the other. sorry again."
I honestly could't care less how small his patient base is, even if he's only using it on one patient it would be interesting to hear of his experience. That way it would help us decide whether it was worth spending the time, effort and money pursuing this. I can understand why he doesn't want to say though, as a doctor you can't really make claims when you have insufficient evidence.
I don't really know what to think about ACE inhibitors any more.
p.s has anyone heard of 5-fluorouracil? I read a researach paper about captopril used on rabbits ears and in the discussion part it discusses other possible scar treatments. It says "5-fluorouracil, a pyrimidine antimetabolite, is recommended through the inhibition of fibroblast proliferation by blocking DNA synthesis and transcription." I believe it's used in the treatment of cancer but I've never heard of it being used on scars before.
I havent hear of 5-fluorouracil. But if it completely inhibited fibroblasts there would be no scarring. The fibroblast is the cause of the scar.
Hey guys, after the Juvista fail:
What about this: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....-a-common-sugar
I don't know, if someone has posted this before. I think we shoud not give up hope. Someday there will be really a progress.
Stay tuned. In some month I will get a medical needling therapy (3mm) for my burn scars. I hope that this will make it a little bit better and I can stick with it until something really scarfree is coming.
NEO