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What that means: ???
Professor Mark Ferguson, CEO Renovo, said: "We are extremely surprised and disappointed by the failure of Juvista to meet the Phase III trial primary and secondary endpoints. The Board of Renovo will now consider all options open to it to maximise shareholder value."
The REVISE Trial
This was a double blind, within patient, placebo controlled trial to assess the efficacy of two dose levels of Juvista (200ng and 500ng/100ul/linear cm of wound margin) given twice, following wound closure and 24 hours later, on the appearance of scars following scar revision surgery. Over 350 patients were recruited from 56 centres in UK France, Hungary, Germany, Italy, Poland, Spain, Denmark, Latvia and USA. The EMA agreed primary endpoint for efficacy was a photographic based assessment at 12 months following surgery by an independent panel of experts using the Global Scar Comparison Scale. Secondary endpoints included an assessment of the scars using the Global Scar Comparison Scale by the patients themselves and by the clinical trial investigator. None of the primary or secondary endpoints were met for either dose.
Juvista fails or what?
Yes it's an epic fail and now they're scraping what's left to help those that invested in it.
Awwwwww. 
That's surprising seeing that Mark Ferguson was very confident all this time about a positive outcome. That is just...very, very disappointing. I was hoping this would work out. They do have another scar reduction drug in the pipeline...but after Juvista's failure I have to say that I don't have that much faith in them anymore.
*sighs*
do you think taking 1800 mgs of enalapril in one sitting would kill u?
I dunno. But it doesn't sound like a wise thing to do. So don't do it.
ah sorry about that guys. my dog had just died from cancer and that coupled with my recent burn scars led to me once again contemplating suicide - hence the overdose of enalapril. it doesnt seem like the best option however!
Sorry to hear about your dog.
Awwwwww.
*sighs*
Oh my god we are scrub...
Awwwwww.
*sighs*
Oh my god we are scrub...
Scrub? 
What does that mean? 
do you think taking 1800 mgs of enalapril in one sitting would kill u?
I dunno. But it doesn't sound like a wise thing to do. So don't do it.
ah sorry about that guys. my dog had just died from cancer and that coupled with my recent burn scars led to me once again contemplating suicide - hence the overdose of enalapril. it doesnt seem like the best option however!
Sorry about your dog.
your case is not hard, so you must keep hope, and patience.
you gonna found a solution soon. 
Awwwwww.
*sighs*
Oh my god we are scrub...
Scrub?
scrub , adj. scrubbed, washed or cleaned by rubbing; scraped, rubbed 
Awwwwww.
*sighs*
Oh my god we are scrub...
Scrub?
scrub , adj. scrubbed, washed or cleaned by rubbing; scraped, rubbed
Well, yes I am certainly washed... 
lol
Anyway....I see that Cutasil is still in the process of being realized:
http://investing.businessweek.com/research...vcapId=41839544
That's from 2011 so that means it's still going. But it's pre-clinical so by the time it will be available to us, if it doesn't fail like Juvista, it will be 2016 or something. 
http://www.sirnaomics.com/News.asp?ID=15
Other than that, there's nothing new coming out within the near future that can significantly improve scarring. At least not as far as I can tell. I guess I'll go talk to the most knowledgable person in Holland about all of this... Maybe she can recommend an ECM treatment? That may be worth the effort. But other than that... There's not really anything, is there? Oh well.
Awwwwww.
*sighs*
Oh my god we are scrub...
Scrub?
scrub , adj. scrubbed, washed or cleaned by rubbing; scraped, rubbed
Well, yes I am certainly washed...
Anyway....I see that Cutasil is still in the process of being realized:
http://investing.businessweek.com/research...vcapId=41839544
That's from 2011 so that means it's still going. But it's pre-clinical so by the time it will be available to us, if it doesn't fail like Juvista, it will be 2016 or something.
But it is the same, cutasil is a reducer of tgf-b1, and juvista by increasing the tgf-b3 reduced also the tgf-b1 such which indicates my research in another thread. here the problem is that juvista not served perhaps by the way for the application, or misuse or doses.
The reducers of tgf-b1 have yielded positive results if your time photos of kitoscell, or of the investigation of enalapril, and i think that enalapril works but it should be much patience and expect improvements moderate, and not a solution perfect. Kitoscell also works but there are that combine it with peelings strong to eliminate such fibrosis left hanging.
But it is the same, cutasil is a reducer of tgf-b1, and juvista by increasing the tgf-b3 reduced also the tgf-b1 such which indicates my research in another thread. here the problem is that juvista not served perhaps by the way for the application, or misuse or doses.
The reducers of tgf-b1 have yielded positive results if your time photos of kitoscell, or of the investigation of enalapril, and i think that enalapril works but it should be much patience and expect improvements moderate, and not a solution perfect. Kitoscell also works but there are that combine it with peelings strong to eliminate such fibrosis left hanging.
Cutasil also targets COX-2. Whatever that is. I haven't got a clue. But it's not 100% the same as Juvista.
Anyway, I'll go and talk to that one researcher at one point or another. I'll ask her about all of this and report back here, sharing what she told me.
Keep your chin up, everyone!
ah the end of an era!
well you guys have been wanting to change the name of this thread for a very long time. now that most of the info in here is pretty much pointless, it might be a good time for all you guys to start afresh and begin a new thread
it saves searching through all this pointless information constantly, lol.
Scar free healing is here. Scar free healing is different to scarless healing.
I want the thread to be called scar free healing, it is less ambiguous than the weasel term scarless healing. I'm sure before this thread there actually used to be a thread called scar free healing. It always puzzles me why that thread got dumped and this one got promoted.
BTW the weasel term Scarless healing has always been here. Silicon sheeting, laser etc.
Well, they are still going to evaluate the phase 3 trial to see if Juvista can still be saved, if you will:
Mark Ferguson: "We will examine everything we possibly can. We will be investigating whether it is positioned, whether the scar is vertical whether it is horizontal what anatomical part of the body it's on, what race is the person it's in, what center it was done by... All we can think of we will analyze because what we must do is to determine very bluntly is whether or not there is something one could do in the design of the trial to overcome the problem or whether the drug just doesn't work well enough in order to be able to overcome the natural variance. I don't know the answer to that question but I can absolutely assure you we will be doing everything in our power to find out if it is the former. If there is something there which we didn't know about before which we can control for going forward... It's absolutely in our interest to find out."
So that will be interesting, I guess... But it doesn't seem like Juvista will ever come out, if you ask me.
Well, they are still going to evaluate the phase 3 trial to see if Juvista can still be saved, if you will:
Mark Ferguson: "We will examine everything we possibly can. We will be investigating whether it is positioned, whether the scar is vertical whether it is horizontal what anatomical part of the body it's on, what race is the person it's in, what center it was done by... All we can think of we will analyze because what we must do is to determine very bluntly is whether or not there is something one could do in the design of the trial to overcome the problem or whether the drug just doesn't work well enough in order to be able to overcome the natural variance. I don't know the answer to that question but I can absolutely assure you we will be doing everything in our power to find out if it is the former. If there is something there which we didn't know about before which we can control for going forward... It's absolutely in our interest to find out."
So that will be interesting, I guess... But it doesn't seem like Juvista will ever come out, if you ask me.
yeah lapis lazuli - sometimes its best to know when to give up and look to something else. juvista will never come out nor will it ever meet expectations. case closed.
surely the fact it doesnt work well just suddenly didnt become clear. they wouldve known this for many years which is why it took so long. i remember it was only recently that they wanted more money, so it was more of a profit making venture, rather than a one that was likely to help.
its better to beware such things. im sure enalapril simply the same. they just closed their research a little more tastefully e.g. she left rather than we cant do it.
Yeah, it's weird... They sort of go into the way things went to a degree in the podcast they posted, though:
http://wpc.1726.planetstream.net/001726/20110211115525-1.wma
I don't know what the truth about it all is, but I agree that it's case closed, yeah. It's like KatieKat said; a bummer.
Btw, Dr. Hitzig and Dr. Cooley received some "critical" response from another doctor. So they posted another audio interview which goes on and on where they talk about ACell:
http://www.iahrs.org/news/gary-hitzig-resp...cell-matristem/
So for those interested in that there's the link... If I remember correctly they claim there to have had good results with the ACell mixed with fillers, I think. But I'm not 100% sure on that.
Anyway, stay positive people! haha Maybe some day something will come out which can genuinely improve/eliminate scars which would definately be groovy. But hey, if that doesn't happen that's ok too; I mean what are you going to do, you know? As for me, recently I hardly ever think about my scar at all. Most of the time, it's not on my mind at all. So for those of you who may be depressed about their scars... I'm sure that as time goes by you'll think less and less about it. It may not seem that way sometimes but give it time, ok? It's certainly not the end of the world.
Ok, I'll catch you later, folks.
Haha. Today renovo reports that thier product failed. Thier stock falls 74% in one day. What a bunch of loosers to keep everyone running along with hope for 5 years. Just another bunch of scientists ripping off the investors making product claims to justify ongoing research and keeping the pay checks rolling in.
Some scientists should die. )))
Hello..
Well even if Juvista passed, did you guys actually think it would do much? As far as I can remember I thought it was a joke and I never looked back into it when I first saw what they were demonstrating it would fix, which was nothing. I see some of you really dissapointed, so I am guessing you really thought it was something groundbreaking. So what was supposedly so good about it, cause I don't think I heard anything, but then again I have been away for a while.
Well, I was skeptical at one point but then after certain photos that had been posted of Juvista in action... I just thought "Well, this is really a good result!". And I thought that if they could ensure that they achieved that result every time and maybe even improve on it then it might not be scarless but it would make it very much unnoticable. Which I thought was wonderful.
But the idea of them knowing all along it wouldn't work... I've thought about this and you know, think of how cold you have to be to pull a stunt like that. In all seriousness one would have to be a sociopath. I mean think of all the lying you'd have to do over the course of years... Honestly, I don't think it's likely. Giving thousands of people false hope intentionally? Having people get surgery just to test a drug of which you know it doesn't work? Like I said, you'd have to be a sociopath.
it probably wasnt intentional to begin with. sometimes things work in the first trial - like in the pics and thats why you do second and third trials. so they were onto something, but perhaps overestimated how good it would really be and when they later found it didnt work so well in most intances, they probably though they could somehow alter it so it would work. either way, they probably should have been a little more open about it. then again, they wanted to make money and its left a lot of people very disappointed.
Oops, I misread your posts then. haha 
im sure something will come out eventually, although unfortunately i dont think ill be around to see it.
Well, with Juvista proving that that approach doesn't work, the researchers can cross that one out and have a better view on where to look for things that do work. So it's actually a step forward when you look at it that way! haha But it's sort of a slow process. Like some researchers have said, it will be possible to get rid of scars at one point or another. But when that is... Heaven knows. Although I remember Hans Clevers saying that developments that can speed things up dramatically can just pop up any time. So it isn't necessarily so that we will all be old and grey by the time medicine has advanced to the point that scars can be gotten rid of. But in terms of what is likely it's probably going to be a while if you ask me.
im interested to see how many of the regulars who post in here will take it. it might be hard for them to detach, especially since they put a lot of their hopes/dreams into this. it will be interesting to see whether they desperately look towards methods similar to juvista or if they open their options up and look elsewhere completely. overall, im sure this thread will make an interesting read in the distant future.
Well, I'm not obsessed with finding a treatment or anything even though I wouldn't mind finding one, I have to say. haha But me, I'm going to finally talk to that one researcher which I've been thinking about doing for quite a while now. I'll hear what she says. Maybe she can recommend something which can improve things further for me. Or maybe she can't. Either way after that I might keep an eye somewhat on developments in the field of regenerative medicine. Maybe we'll get lucky and someone will yell "Eureka!" at some point. But I'd be surprised if that happened. Anyway, I'm not disillusioned or anything. Just gotta make the best of things.
I've never cared for juvista. It's been known for quite some time that TGF-B3 doesn't have the desired effect.
then u shouldve said something pepo...so many people here are so secretive.
I have. Many times. Others have expressed their concern also. If you haven't read the posts then that's not my problem. Transforming Growth Factors (including TGF-B3) have been discussed in detail from the very first page of this 133 page long thread. In fact I believe on the very first page someone explains why they don't think Juvista will work.
i might not respond for a few days because i am going into care. my family found out about my plans to commit suicide and arent coping. They feel its best i am away for a bit.
Alas I will respond when I return...If i return!
Good luck getting better mate. It will be good to talk to people about the stuff that's bugging you. All the best.
Day 13 of Enalapril
No changes at all really. The hypertrophic scars still redden throughout the day and lighten considerably to an almost white texture when i do a lot of exercise. they look like they will be a bright white once they finally die down.
given the failure of juvista as a scarless healing method, im starting to have strong doubts about enalapril. so im keen to hear what your views are on all of this.
i might not respond for a few days because i am going into care. my family found out about my plans to commit suicide and arent coping. They feel its best i am away for a bit.
Alas I will respond when I return...If i return!
Take care of yourself.
im trying to email some people on some congestive heart failure sites to find out what their experiences with ace-inhibitors has been. ill let you guys know if i hear anything interesting
Good idea. ACE inhibitors are a fairly common medicine and nearly everybody I know has at least some form of scarring. The people on the sites your looking on must have been on ACE inhibitors for long periods of time so hopefully you should get some answers.
I must say though, given how common ACE inhibitors are you would of thought that a side effect such as scars disappearing would of been noticed much earlier. I find it hard to believe that this is only coming to light now. I still haven't seen any improvement after 54 days in any of my scars. I get the feeling that we are clutching at straws.
What keeps me going however, is the fact that there is a credible research paper that states full resolution in a patient and in more than one scar. These people obviously aren't lying and they are clearly intelligent people. So why haven't I seen any improvement yet? Why hasn't this been noticed before?
It's completely counter-intuitive. I really don't know what to make of this right now. I had the feeling from the start that this was too good to be true and from what I've seen so far my initial feeling seems to be right unfortunately. I hope it works I really do, but like I said 54 days and nothing so far. I just can't see this working but I'll keep going. Obviously these things take time. I wasn't expecting full resolution this early but after 54 days I did expect some small improvement. In the research paper it says full resolution was achieved in a patient in 3-4 months. I just can't believe that after 2 months of nothing there will suddenly be improvement in the next month or two.
Also, if this doesn't work..... what else is there? Juvista has failed which I know a few people had high hopes for. ECM's just seem completely unattainable whether they work or not. Personally neither of these were ever an option for me but I'm wondering what else is there now? I guess it's just a waiting game.
thanks for your post pepo.its nice to have someone else chatting about it
im sorry you are again not seeing any changes in your scars. dont forget there are so many parts to a scar. theres the colour, the texture, the height, width and all that. i remember you being 6 ot 7 weeks into yours and the goal is about 16 weeks (which is 4 months). i wouldve thought you wouldve seen something by now. then again, the report deals more with the keloid scars. the only thing it really said about the hypertrophic scar is it *completely disappeared by month 3-4*. it didnt say whether there was a progression throughout the period, or it suddenly went away....and if it went away - how so...did the texture change, the colour, the height, width etc. its a shame they dont have pics to go with this, because that would have truly helped. the only pics are with the captopril, which is a different ace inhibitor. even then, i can still definitely see the scar there...i remember seabs saying, she definitely needed more time on it, then perhaps she wouldve seen a better result.
i dont think the people that did the article are stupid at all either. but i am a little worried. older people seem to be more accepting of average results *at least from my experience*...e.g. they would call something a complete resolution in a clinical sense - but not a cosmetic sense...eg. it cant be called a hypertrophic or keloid scar anymore, but it could still be called a scar - which to us would be just as ugly. the people who are doing the captopril topical study seemed to abandon their research rather quickly *because she moved* and im curious why it wasnt taken up again...or whether their stage 2 trials werent giving them the desired results...like juvistas stage 2 trial which sounded like a disaster.
dr lam mentioned he recently went to a conference where the whole thing was discussed and id be curious to see what he was exactly shown. i asked him if hed seen anything positive with the captopril he was giving to patients and he was nice about it, but said it was too early to say.
im not sure whether i am really seeing changes to be honest, but then again im only on day 14. most of my scars are 4 month old hypertrophic burn scars which are pretty large, but flattened and still reddnen throughout the day. i havent really noticed too much of a change, except that they dont redden as much during the day. they just go to a really dark grey and lighten to a really light grey after exercise. they still have the noticable scar texture, colour and shine. some of mine seem to be changing slightly, but thats mostly in terms of one of the indented ones deepening a little bit - as if its trying to settle somewhere. im noticing im getting a little sleepy more often, which might be a side effect of the lower blood pressure, so it means its levels are building up and hopefully that means ther results might begin to become more apparent.
ill definitely let you know if i recieve any interesting responses.
also seabs or madition, if you want to reply, please do. i really do respect you guys and although i know there isnt really anything new to warrant a response, your view on everything we are saying would be greatly appreciated. you understand a lot more of it for a start
In talking about Juvista, I've personally not followed it since I seen a result three years ago, since the second trial failed in 2008 and since it was pushed as a 'scarless healing' drug. I only want to discuss scar free healing. I stopped looking at it 3year ago. So this P3 result was something I thought could've happened. There is no trauma from this for me.
Also from my point of view, this TGFB123 is a belief system that has been unwittingly reinforced IMO. All it is is 'maybe' a signal that a certain type of healing is happening at a stage in healing. E.g. If you think of a spedometer in a car it tells you how fast the car is travelling, however if you break the dashboard and move the spedo to 120, that does not make the cars speed move to 120, it just means you've adjusted the spedometer. The same logic goes with TFGB123 IMO.
The reason I did not challenge the belief system of TGFB123 is because it is hard work challenging any belief system, therefor I just kept out of the discussion involving newcomers who thought they were informed and authoritive and who promoted it in the belief it was a mechanism; I just prioritised my posts and tried to keep away from challenging belief systems.
If you look at my posts I have not mentioned Juvista for years, perhaps the last time would've been in late 2007 early 2008.
thanks lapis and seabs
im trying to email some people on some congestive heart failure sites to find out what their experiences with ace-inhibitors has been. ill let you guys know if i hear anything interesting
i hope you guys are well.
Just throwing it out there but don't you think this and Enalapril should have its own thread because each individual scarless healing treatment seems to get meshed up in this epic thread? Maybe it's just me as I get confused what one is talking about to the next and too lazy to go through, again, this epic thread.