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How about microneedling combined with ACE inhibitors and Kitoscell or Juvista? I mean aggressive type of needling using single needle instead of dermarollers. Also I've heard that some people have actually injected lactic or glyglolic acid directly into the scar tissue. That way penetration shouldn't be a problem but the risks are obviously higher..
I wonder if scar tissue could be removed by injecting acid (lactic, salicylic?) or some enzyme directly into the scar tissue and then using Juvista or some other product to promote healing and reduce replication of scar tissue.
In theory a reducer tgf-b1 as enalapril, could reduce the fibrosis (scar), also improves the healing by what MAYBE is good take months before and after, some medium peeling. but only reduce the fibrosis , and use juvista to obtain a regenerating of skin once reduced fibrosis. Possibly + 2 months of enalapril , then a peeling TCA or scar revision or like you say some enzyme , and then apply juvista , keep whit enalapril 2 months more, and optional apply kitoscell too, maybe more effective.
The good of juvista is that should only apply twice, before the revision of scar and then made the treatment. That gives us time to implement freely reducers of TGF-B1, that these if need be applied by quite a few months. before treatment to reduce, and then to maintain results and improved even.
Remember all: we need reduces TGF-B1, TGF-B2, and increase TGF-B3 (healing like embryon).
TGF-B1: The reductors of TGF-B1, like enalapril (pills), or kitoscell (gel), only reduce the FIBROSIS, nothing more, the surface of the skin remains the same but without fibrosis.
TGF-B2: increase fibrosis like TGF-B1, path we don't have any reducers of TGF-B2 at day.
TGF-B3: The + of TGF-B3, like juvista, are they can make the surface of the skin (the most important), he is normal. (For this to work one must first remove the fibrosis, whit revision of scars,or something like that).
The skin even without fibrosis does not have the capacity of improved and cured staying in a normal surface. That is why we need also juvista ( + tgf-b3).
''Maybe '', all this could give an improvement in more than a 30 to 50 per cent (maybe some humans worst per cent, and some humans better, depends), and for the current technology (a poor knows about healing), should be satisfied with an improvement like that.
Finally i want to say that by more than imitate that factor of cure of embryo (less tgf-b1,b2, and increase tgf-b3), even if we cannot avoid healing since it is not only amend three growth factors, and there are many factors in the healing of embryos that even know ,and that is why we can only obtain an improvement in the scar, but not the solution.
By the way, therapy of bee venom maybe it's amazing...i don't know why nobody talk about it here... here's a pic before and after whit this treatment.
the thread in this forum: http://www.acne.org/messageboard/Sclerolys...ng-t254506.html
nowadays i read so many of these articles but really dont know how it will help people with scars already but nevertheless very interesting!
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....-a-common-sugar
nowadays i read so many of these articles but really dont know how it will help people with scars already but nevertheless very interesting!
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....-a-common-sugar
Lol yeah they seem to come out with one like every week. Theory theory theory, yet with no funding, all these findings are going to be shelfed away for years to come. The holly grail solution is probably floating around in those long lost files waiting to be revived or was probably destroyed by Nazi doctors when the Soviets came knocking on the door. Kinda reminds me of how the string theory came to be, nice little comparison for the rest of you physicists out there.
PS you should probably not listen to me, I am just ranting like always.
The only thing that blocks off regenerating is excess collagen production (fibroplasia). In wounded tissues there is a race between excess collagen production (fibroplasia) and regeneration and collagen production usually wins the race.
The body does not need help regenerating.
nowadays i read so many of these articles but really dont know how it will help people with scars already but nevertheless very interesting!
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....-a-common-sugar
This is interesting, i will search more about it (i hope found more data). It's the other key 'hialuronic acid' , when embryon healing whithout scars, have less tgf-b1,b2, have more tgf-b3, and...have full of hialuronic acid. This report says, the key are hialuronic in perfect union, and not in fragments, maybe that is the key for complete healing.
The only thing that blocks off regenerating is excess collagen production (fibroplasia). In wounded tissues there is a race between excess collagen production (fibroplasia) and regeneration and collagen production usually wins the race.
The body does not need help regenerating.
It is not so easy.
The only thing that blocks off regenerating is excess collagen production (fibroplasia). In wounded tissues there is a race between excess collagen production (fibroplasia) and regeneration and collagen production usually wins the race.
The body does not need help regenerating.
It is not so easy.
Its not so easy for a human, you are right on that part. I mean there are many micro mechanisms that happen at specific moments in a 3d structure that a microscope that hasn't been developed for that happen in regeneration. Switches get switched on and off, 3d microprocesses in specific parts of the tissue happen then stop.
However the body has been regenerating for thousands and thousands of years, it is easy for the body. It is regenerating tissue all the time. I would rather have something that knows what it is doing regenerating the thousand of micro mechanisms and switches.
E.g. If you found out that the plumber you hired had been locked out of your house and your plumbing had been done by a student, you'd be angry?
The only thing that blocks off regenerating tissue is excess collagen or disease (e.g. diabeties). And when the excess collagen production gets switched off like say in a salamader, liver, or non wounded skin, you get regeneration. However when the excess collagen production happens you get scar.
The only thing that blocks off regenerating tissue is excess collagen or disease (e.g. diabeties). And when the excess collagen production gets switched off like say in a salamader, liver, or non wounded skin, you get regeneration. However when the excess collagen production happens you get scar.
"TGF-b1 has multiple effects on fibroblast function by increasing transcription and synthesis of collagen"
TGF-b1 is the the reason people scar as it causes the over production of collagen. Get rid of it, and in theory you should have no scar. Even if TGF-b3 levels are low, as long as it over powers the TGF-b1 then wounds should heal much much better or they will heal completely.
This is why I'm not so sure about Juvista. I'm not sure if its entirely necessary. To stop scarring you need to sort out the problem of our bodies over producing collagen, as seabs said. If this can be done by suppressing TGF-b1 is it really necessary to spend all this money on Juvista just to increase TGF-b3. Ofcourse TGF-b3 will help but I'm just not sure how necessary it is. Juvista alone does nothing in the way of lowering TGF-b1 levels. Since this is what causes scarring in the first place, wouldn't it be better trying to solve that problem rather than ignoring it and trying to increase TGF-b3?
I may be wrong but I really think TGF-b1 is the key here. Like seabs says, over production of collagen is what causes scarring. TGF-b1 is responsible for this over production of collagen. Get rid of TGF-b1 and you have no scarring.
Your body can do two things, it can scar or it can heal. If you take away your bodies ability to scar, then it must heal.
The only thing that blocks off regenerating tissue is excess collagen or disease (e.g. diabeties). And when the excess collagen production gets switched off like say in a salamader, liver, or non wounded skin, you get regeneration. However when the excess collagen production happens you get scar.
"TGF-b1 has multiple effects on fibroblast function by increasing transcription and synthesis of collagen"
TGF-b1 is the the reason people scar as it causes the over production of collagen. Get rid of it, and in theory you should have no scar. Even if TGF-b3 levels are low, as long as it over powers the TGF-b1 then wounds should heal much much better or they will heal completely.
This is why I'm not so sure about Juvista. I'm not sure if its entirely necessary. To stop scarring you need to sort out the problem of our bodies over producing collagen, as seabs said. If this can be done by suppressing TGF-b1 is it really necessary to spend all this money on Juvista just to increase TGF-b3. Ofcourse TGF-b3 will help but I'm just not sure how necessary it is. Juvista alone does nothing in the way of lowering TGF-b1 levels. Since this is what causes scarring in the first place, wouldn't it be better trying to solve that problem rather than ignoring it and trying to increase TGF-b3?
I may be wrong but I really think TGF-b1 is the key here. Like seabs says, over production of collagen is what causes scarring. TGF-b1 is responsible for this over production of collagen. Get rid of TGF-b1 and you have no scarring.
Your body can do two things, it can scar or it can heal. If you take away your bodies ability to scar, then it must heal.
Facts:
-Scarring is the result of collagen over production (e.g. it is a polyfiller usually after injury), created by fibroblast proliferation.
-Scarring blocks off pathways for your body to knit regenerated tissue.
-When these pathways are blocked off, by scarring, your body cannot regenerate. In effect when the pathways have been blocked off, it has been locked out of regenerating, which is what an organism has done since the beginning of evolution.
-AngiotensinII, which is suppressed or blocked by ace inhibitors, when limited or blocked also inhibits or blocks fibroblast proliferation. Ace inhibitors have been shown to remodel tissue.
Your body can do two things, it can scar or it can heal. If you take away your bodies ability to scar, then it must heal.
Right on! \m/
Lol I don't know if that's accurate. Healing is actually scarring. Regeneration is the way to go.
Of course technically scarring is a way of your body repairing itself, but when I say 'heal' I think everybody on this forum knows I mean without scarring (regeneration).
Your body can either heal with a scar or heal without a scar. The body has the ability to do either. If you take away your bodies ability to heal with a scar, then it must heal without a scar (full regeneration).
Facts:
-Scarring is the result of collagen over production (e.g. it is a polyfiller usually after injury), created by fibroblast proliferation.
-Scarring blocks off pathways for your body to knit regenerated tissue.
-When these pathways are blocked off, by scarring, your body cannot regenerate. In effect when the pathways have been blocked off, it has been locked out of regenerating, which is what an organism has done since the beginning of evolution.
-AngiotensinII, which is suppressed or blocked by ace inhibitors, when limited or blocked also inhibits or blocks fibroblast proliferation. Ace inhibitors have been shown to remodel tissue.
On a more personal note seabs, how are you planning on treating your scars if you don't mind me asking? Are you looking to get an ACE inhibitor or waiting for some more news/treatments?
Just interested as you seem to know a lot.
hi all
so with all this stem cell, tissue engeneering and regenerative medicine work being done do you think that things are looking bright and we are few years away from huge breakthrough and before 2020 we will be able to get our skin back or very close to normal. It looks that even burns injury might be thing of past over next decade. thnks
"TGF-b1 has multiple effects on fibroblast function by increasing transcription and synthesis of collagen"
TGF-b1 is the the reason people scar as it causes the over production of collagen. Get rid of it, and in theory you should have no scar. Even if TGF-b3 levels are low, as long as it over powers the TGF-b1 then wounds should heal much much better or they will heal completely.
This is why I'm not so sure about Juvista. I'm not sure if its entirely necessary. To stop scarring you need to sort out the problem of our bodies over producing collagen, as seabs said. If this can be done by suppressing TGF-b1 is it really necessary to spend all this money on Juvista just to increase TGF-b3. Ofcourse TGF-b3 will help but I'm just not sure how necessary it is. Juvista alone does nothing in the way of lowering TGF-b1 levels. Since this is what causes scarring in the first place, wouldn't it be better trying to solve that problem rather than ignoring it and trying to increase TGF-b3?
I may be wrong but I really think TGF-b1 is the key here. Like seabs says, over production of collagen is what causes scarring. TGF-b1 is responsible for this over production of collagen. Get rid of TGF-b1 and you have no scarring.
Your body can do two things, it can scar or it can heal. If you take away your bodies ability to scar, then it must heal.
The therapy of bee venom dilutes the fibrosis in only one application, makes the work that a reducer tgf-b1 in years.
The picture of the hand where applied poison of bees, the scar almost dessapair, and that effect if you want it with a reducer tgf-b1 is achieved in years of treatment.
The therapy of bee venom has given the best result that i have seen (at least for the type of scar that is seen in the hand of that person), but clear as it is naturist do not want him known major laboratories.
I am investigating more about this powerful poison capable of eliminating the fibrosis of scar only in a couple of applications.
Unfortunately there is only one photo so it makes me suspicious but, if that photo is real, this treatment is best to dilute scars that i have seen.
by the way, the reducer of tgf-b1 it's a really good treatment path we need remember, it's for reduce a scar, eliminate is other thing. so, i repeat, in some guys maybe this reducer show a really good result.
Facts:
-Scarring is the result of collagen over production (e.g. it is a polyfiller usually after injury), created by fibroblast proliferation.
-Scarring blocks off pathways for your body to knit regenerated tissue.
-When these pathways are blocked off, by scarring, your body cannot regenerate. In effect when the pathways have been blocked off, it has been locked out of regenerating, which is what an organism has done since the beginning of evolution.
-AngiotensinII, which is suppressed or blocked by ace inhibitors, when limited or blocked also inhibits or blocks fibroblast proliferation. Ace inhibitors have been shown to remodel tissue.
And who you can ensure that the human body without tgf-b1, you could regenerate without scar? I believe that bags conclusions without seeing facts; no one has found that without tgf-b1 the body capable of generating normal skin.
Without tgf-b1 only inhibit fibrosis, but the body does not think it is capable of generating normal skin just eliminating this factor.
Agents are required to help the regenerating, as the tgf-b3, and hyaluronic acid, as announced recently in the news that speaks of hyaluronic.
Remember the embryon healing is whit less tgf-b1, INCREASE tgf-b3, and hyaluronic acid NOT FRAGMENTED, and many others thinks whe don't know...
We talk about scarless healing is not true?
So...we need know the completed way. You can not pretend eliminate a scar only put a reducer of tgf-b1, or decorin...i'm sorry seabs it's not so easy i told you before, we need understand and put the all arsenal.
Path i repeat, i think whit less tgf-b1, more tgf-b3 and a hyaluronic completed (not defragment), we can reduce a scar in a good percent, maybe scarless... and ecm no denaturated maybe help too.
If you need only reduces a scar...so yeah, let's do a treatment whit a reducer of tgf-b1.
The acid hyaluronic recently discovered that in its complete form, not defragmentd, can reduce the scar significantly, and i remember to you, that this acid is part of the healing embryo without scar.
Facts:
-Scarring is the result of collagen over production (e.g. it is a polyfiller usually after injury), created by fibroblast proliferation.
-Scarring blocks off pathways for your body to knit regenerated tissue.
-When these pathways are blocked off, by scarring, your body cannot regenerate. In effect when the pathways have been blocked off, it has been locked out of regenerating, which is what an organism has done since the beginning of evolution.
-AngiotensinII, which is suppressed or blocked by ace inhibitors, when limited or blocked also inhibits or blocks fibroblast proliferation. Ace inhibitors have been shown to remodel tissue.
And who you can ensure that the human body without tgf-b1, you could regenerate without scar? I believe that bags conclusions without seeing facts; no one has found that without tgf-b1 the body capable of generating normal skin.
Without tgf-b1 only inhibit fibrosis, but the body does not think it is capable of generating normal skin just eliminating this factor.
Agents are required to help the regenerating, as the tgf-b3, and hyaluronic acid, as announced recently in the news that speaks of hyaluronic.
Remember the embryon healing is whit less tgf-b1, INCREASE tgf-b3, and hyaluronic acid NOT FRAGMENTED, and many others thinks whe don't know...
We talk about scarless healing is not true?
So...we need know the completed way. You can not pretend eliminate a scar only put a reducer of tgf-b1, or decorin...i'm sorry seabs it's not so easy i told you before, we need understand and put the all arsenal.
Path i repeat, i think whit less tgf-b1, more tgf-b3 and a hyaluronic completed (not defragment), we can reduce a scar in a good percent, maybe scarless... and ecm no denaturated maybe help too.
If you need only reduces a scar...so yeah, let's do a treatment whit a reducer of tgf-b1.
The acid hyaluronic recently discovered that in its complete form, not defragmentd, can reduce the scar significantly, and i remember to you, that this acid is part of the healing embryo without scar.
Tissues are always in a state of regeneration (They have been doing this since organisms evolved, they know what they are doing), the only times a tissue cant regenerate are when scarring blocks off the pathways (usually after injury and this is usually over many months), if there is a disease (diabetes), if thyere is a poison, or if there is a death of tissue (necrosis). Simple as.
I'll give you some examples of this.
In healing of a wound, you can actually see for yourself that two things have happened, 1 there has been scar (fibroblast proliferation bringing excess collagen), 2 there has been a little bit of regeneratuion at the edges, however the regeneration has been gazumped by the scarring filling in the deficit.
Also if you look at Enalapril, this has resolved scarring on tissues by shutting off the fibroblast proliferation by suppressing angiotensin II. The scarring process was not available because of the ACE inhibitor stopping fibroblast proliferation. The body then remodelled and regenerated tissue because of the removal of scar.
The facts are there.
http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101212/ful...s.2010.668.html
Human intestinal tissue grown in the lab.
I think this is a beginning of tissue which is grown in the lab. It's starting. Hurray.
http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101212/ful...s.2010.668.html
Human intestinal tissue grown in the lab.
I think this is a beginning of tissue which is grown in the lab. It's starting. Hurray.
seabs, how are you planning on treating your scars if you don't mind me asking? Are you looking to get an ACE inhibitor or waiting for some more news/treatments?
Just interested as you seem to know a lot.
____________
I have ordered some enalapril today from an online pharmacy. I'm going to use the following things:
- ACE inhibitor - suppress TGF-b1
- Strong TCA peel - get rid of scar tissue (hopefully, not sure how will it will work but worth a try)
- vitamin c
- msm
- zinc
- hyaluronic acid
- copper peptides - further reduce TGF-b1 and increase decorin
One thing I'm not so sure about: as scarring is caused by the over production of collagen would it be a bad idea to supplement with vitamin c and zinc as these both increase collagen synthesis?
seabs, how are you planning on treating your scars if you don't mind me asking? Are you looking to get an ACE inhibitor or waiting for some more news/treatments?
Just interested as you seem to know a lot.
____________
I have ordered some enalapril today from an online pharmacy. I'm going to use the following things:
- ACE inhibitor - suppress TGF-b1
- Strong TCA peel - get rid of scar tissue (hopefully, not sure how will it will work but worth a try)
- vitamin c
- msm
- zinc
- hyaluronic acid
- copper peptides - further reduce TGF-b1 and increase decorin
One thing I'm not so sure about: as scarring is caused by the over production of collagen would it be a bad idea to supplement with vitamin c and zinc as these both increase collagen synthesis?
What I want to do for my scarring:
Ideally remove my scarring, surgical etc.
Apply a non denatured ECM, keep it moist, then later in the remodelling phase use a captopril solution and enalapril to inhibit any chance of fibroblast proliferation.
I would like to use ace inhibitors.
I know they've been around for ages but I dont know much about copper peptides as of yet. I know they increase decorin levels. It is just I get pissed off when I try to research them; I always seem to get put on to a shopping page, with various products. At that stage I close the page.
Hey Pepo, regarding your list I honestly dont think vitamin C is as bad as you think. I'm sure I've read somewhere vitamin C keeps the fibrils open, but dont take me up on that I may be wrong.