Acne.org Products
Hi,
If you were to scrutinise the footnote at the bottom, it says that the first set of pictures were at the 7mth mark. The 2nd set of pictures shows further improvement (for both placebo and Juvista) at the 12 mth mark. If you were to think abt it, I think what they were trying to get across with this demonstration is the fact that Juvista already improved the scar to a remarkable degree after half a year.
Right! Of course. 
Have you heard the interview with Hitzig? In it, he describes something which he is testing with, namely injections of fillers along with/mixed with ACell. He's testing it on people who have wrinkles, if I remember correctly, in order to have the sub-epidermal tissue regrow which is now sort of missing, causing the wrinkles. This, if it turns out to be working, could very well be a way that you can be helped as well, I assume, as it is only concerned with sub-epidermal layers and I think stretch marks only concern the dermis? In any case you wouldn't have to have EVERYTHING cut out...as I'm sure they can find a way to leave the epidermis as good as intact while they find some way to injure the area underneath in order to get the whole regeneration process going? I dunno, just thinking out loud...
With regards to stretch marks I reckon, and I may be wrong on this point here, that this injection would only work with light stretch marks. For the the heavier ones you would have to create a wound.
Yeah, I guess you'd have to.
On the discussion of stretch marks and an injectable filler, some quote for Pepe
Gail Naughton... ‚Å“I also believe that ECM as a whole, not just a collagen, will provide to be an excellent tissue filler and stimulate in-growth of a person‚„s own cells to more permanently fill the defect and regenerate bone, muscle, and skin.‚http://www.regenerativemedicine.net/Newsle...asp?qEmpID=3697
Personally again I still think with heavy stretch marks, you'd have to create a wound and insert the ECM to get site specific tissue.
Have you heard the interview with Hitzig? In it, he describes something which he is testing with, namely injections of fillers along with/mixed with ACell. He's testing it on people who have wrinkles, if I remember correctly, in order to have the sub-epidermal tissue regrow which is now sort of missing, causing the wrinkles. This, if it turns out to be working, could very well be a way that you can be helped as well, I assume, as it is only concerned with sub-epidermal layers and I think stretch marks only concern the dermis? In any case you wouldn't have to have EVERYTHING cut out...as I'm sure they can find a way to leave the epidermis as good as intact while they find some way to injure the area underneath in order to get the whole regeneration process going? I dunno, just thinking out loud...
With regards to stretch marks I reckon, and I may be wrong on this point here, that this injection would only work with light stretch marks. For the the heavier ones you would have to create a wound.
Yeah, I guess you'd have to.
On the discussion of stretch marks and an injectable filler, some quote for Pepe
Gail Naughton... ‚Å“I also believe that ECM as a whole, not just a collagen, will provide to be an excellent tissue filler and stimulate in-growth of a person‚„s own cells to more permanently fill the defect and regenerate bone, muscle, and skin.‚http://www.regenerativemedicine.net/Newsle...asp?qEmpID=3697
Personally again I still think with heavy stretch marks, you'd have to create a wound and insert the ECM to get site specific tissue.
Interesting... I also remember now that Hitzig said that with the injection itself, they create wounds. So that way maybe it can be so that Pepo's skin doesn't have to be cut out but just through the injecting of ACell the stretch marks can maybe go away...possibly. I dunno. Again, just thinking out loud. Hypothetically, it would still be costly but I can imagine it would be worth it.
Hey guys guess whoo, lol. Well just wanted to come back to check how things are coming along. But I've noticed some talk about juvista in this forum being portrayed as some sort of hope or something to look forward to, but as far as I can remember before I left I thought that we have established that juvista was a joke. If my absence has really missed out on something, I hope someone would enlighten me on this issue.
Hey guys guess whoo, lol. Well just wanted to come back to check how things are coming along. But I've noticed some talk about juvista in this forum being portrayed as some sort of hope or something to look forward to, but as far as I can remember before I left I thought that we have established that juvista was a joke. If my absence has really missed out on something, I hope someone would enlighten me on this issue.
Personally I'm not too excited about juvista, but that might just be because of my current situation. Even if it does work I won't be able to afford it so it kind of rules it out for me. I sincerely hope it does work though.
I decided to read over the first few pages of this thread and surprisingly there is quite a lot of really good information. There is a lot of talk of transforming growth factors and I found it really interesting to read over. I was surprised to find that everything we know now we pretty much knew back then as well, all the way back in 2007.
On the very first page of this thread 'anna' said (2007):
"Transformative Growth Factor Beta 3 (TGF B3) is the active ingredient in Renovo's line of treatment. Scar tissue, whether it is the thin membrane that stops depressed scars from filling in or the thick fibrous kind in keloids, is caused by the excess of Transformative Growth Factor Beta 1 (TGF B1). I've been following Renovo for about five years in the hope that this would ultimately be the answer, and it will definitely help. However, until you can completely suppress TGFB1 the body will try to create a seal to a wound and that seal is scar tissue. Back when all of us were in a fetal state, TGF B3 had dominance and in fact if you take a fetus out of the womb and perform open heart surgery and place it back in the womb, at the time of birth a few months later the baby will not have a scar. The fetus regenerates instead of sealing. It could be that in order to creat the environment for scar free healing you would need to really flood the new wound with the TGF B3. Once I saw Renovo's pictures on their website for treatment of excisional wounds I was actually a little disappointed in that ,while the scars were improved, they were still THERE."
Scars4life, I don't know if you've read all the posts about ACE inhibitors suppressing TGF-B1 production but personally I think this is pretty major, for reasons stated in the quote above. I think if TGF-B1 suppression on its own doesn't work, it will at least be one part of the puzzle.
I copied this from the first page aswell:
..............FETAL SCAR-FREE HEALING...............ADULT HEALING WITH SCARRING
TGF1.............low/absent.............................................high
TGF2.............low/absent.............................................high
TGF3....................high................................................low
I think the most important factors are TGF-B1 and TGF-B3. We have discovered that ACE inhibitors suppress TGF-B1 production, so that's one part of the equation. Personally I think that on its own will help tremendously as we are now at the point where TGF-B3 outnumbers TGF-B1, even though TGF-B3 levels are still low. Juvista I believe is a form of TGF-B3, so on its own I'm not sure how well it would work, but with an ACE inhibitor I think it could work very well. Personally I would love to discover that there is a drug out there (like ACE inhibitors) that increases TGF-B3 that could be taken orally. So then we would take an ACE inhibitor to decrease TGF-B1 and this other drug to increase TGF-B3, but at this moment in time we don't know about any such drug. Having said that I have heard that needling (skin-rolling) increases TGF-B3 production and that copper peptides increase the levels of decorin in the skin. So maybe a combination of an ACE inhibitor (to suppress TGF-B1), needling (to increase TGF-B3) and copper peptides (to increase decorin levels) could help to reduce scars or get rid of them. Needling has been done before with some degree of success in some people but I wonder if the reason people aren't getting better results is because they still have high levels of TGF-B1? If everything was used in combination maybe we could see good results. Who knows? I suppose that hypothetically if this combination did work, the problem would be in breaking down the existing scar tissue.
Also I read that all atrophic scars are pretty similar in nature and that when there is a cure for acne scars that same treatment should work on stretch marks. I think it was a doctor who said it but I can't find the source again, so I may be wrong.
Thanks for all the posts guys.
Hey guys guess whoo, lol. Well just wanted to come back to check how things are coming along. But I've noticed some talk about juvista in this forum being portrayed as some sort of hope or something to look forward to, but as far as I can remember before I left I thought that we have established that juvista was a joke. If my absence has really missed out on something, I hope someone would enlighten me on this issue.
Personally I'm not too excited about juvista, but that might just be because of my current situation. Even if it does work I won't be able to afford it so it kind of rules it out for me. I sincerely hope it does work though.
I decided to read over the first few pages of this thread and surprisingly there is quite a lot of really good information. There is a lot of talk of transforming growth factors and I found it really interesting to read over. I was surprised to find that everything we know now we pretty much knew back then as well, all the way back in 2007.
On the very first page of this thread 'anna' said (2007):
"Transformative Growth Factor Beta 3 (TGF B3) is the active ingredient in Renovo's line of treatment. Scar tissue, whether it is the thin membrane that stops depressed scars from filling in or the thick fibrous kind in keloids, is caused by the excess of Transformative Growth Factor Beta 1 (TGF B1). I've been following Renovo for about five years in the hope that this would ultimately be the answer, and it will definitely help. However, until you can completely suppress TGFB1 the body will try to create a seal to a wound and that seal is scar tissue. Back when all of us were in a fetal state, TGF B3 had dominance and in fact if you take a fetus out of the womb and perform open heart surgery and place it back in the womb, at the time of birth a few months later the baby will not have a scar. The fetus regenerates instead of sealing. It could be that in order to creat the environment for scar free healing you would need to really flood the new wound with the TGF B3. Once I saw Renovo's pictures on their website for treatment of excisional wounds I was actually a little disappointed in that ,while the scars were improved, they were still THERE."
Scars4life, I don't know if you've read all the posts about ACE inhibitors suppressing TGF-B1 production but personally I think this is pretty major, for reasons stated in the quote above. I think if TGF-B1 suppression on its own doesn't work, it will at least be one part of the puzzle.
I copied this from the first page aswell:
..............FETAL SCAR-FREE HEALING...............ADULT HEALING WITH SCARRING
TGF1.............low/absent.............................................high
TGF2.............low/absent.............................................high
TGF3....................high................................................low
I think the most important factors are TGF-B1 and TGF-B3. We have discovered that ACE inhibitors suppress TGF-B1 production, so that's one part of the equation. Personally I think that on its own will help tremendously as we are now at the point where TGF-B3 outnumbers TGF-B1, even though TGF-B3 levels are still low. Juvista I believe is a form of TGF-B3, so on its own I'm not sure how well it would work, but with an ACE inhibitor I think it could work very well. Personally I would love to discover that there is a drug out there (like ACE inhibitors) that increases TGF-B3 that could be taken orally. So then we would take an ACE inhibitor to decrease TGF-B1 and this other drug to increase TGF-B3, but at this moment in time we don't know about any such drug. Having said that I have heard that needling (skin-rolling) increases TGF-B3 production and that copper peptides increase the levels of decorin in the skin. So maybe a combination of an ACE inhibitor (to suppress TGF-B1), needling (to increase TGF-B3) and copper peptides (to increase decorin levels) could help to reduce scars or get rid of them. Needling has been done before with some degree of success in some people but I wonder if the reason people aren't getting better results is because they still have high levels of TGF-B1? If everything was used in combination maybe we could see good results. Who knows? I suppose that hypothetically if this combination did work, the problem would be in breaking down the existing scar tissue.
Also I read that all atrophic scars are pretty similar in nature and that when there is a cure for acne scars that same treatment should work on stretch marks. I think it was a doctor who said it but I can't find the source again, so I may be wrong.
Thanks for all the posts guys.
Unbelievable how things get discussed again and again.
Hey guys guess whoo, lol. Well just wanted to come back to check how things are coming along. But I've noticed some talk about juvista in this forum being portrayed as some sort of hope or something to look forward to, but as far as I can remember before I left I thought that we have established that juvista was a joke. If my absence has really missed out on something, I hope someone would enlighten me on this issue.
Personally I'm not too excited about juvista, but that might just be because of my current situation. Even if it does work I won't be able to afford it so it kind of rules it out for me. I sincerely hope it does work though.
I decided to read over the first few pages of this thread and surprisingly there is quite a lot of really good information. There is a lot of talk of transforming growth factors and I found it really interesting to read over. I was surprised to find that everything we know now we pretty much knew back then as well, all the way back in 2007.
On the very first page of this thread 'anna' said (2007):
"Transformative Growth Factor Beta 3 (TGF B3) is the active ingredient in Renovo's line of treatment. Scar tissue, whether it is the thin membrane that stops depressed scars from filling in or the thick fibrous kind in keloids, is caused by the excess of Transformative Growth Factor Beta 1 (TGF B1). I've been following Renovo for about five years in the hope that this would ultimately be the answer, and it will definitely help. However, until you can completely suppress TGFB1 the body will try to create a seal to a wound and that seal is scar tissue. Back when all of us were in a fetal state, TGF B3 had dominance and in fact if you take a fetus out of the womb and perform open heart surgery and place it back in the womb, at the time of birth a few months later the baby will not have a scar. The fetus regenerates instead of sealing. It could be that in order to creat the environment for scar free healing you would need to really flood the new wound with the TGF B3. Once I saw Renovo's pictures on their website for treatment of excisional wounds I was actually a little disappointed in that ,while the scars were improved, they were still THERE."
Scars4life, I don't know if you've read all the posts about ACE inhibitors suppressing TGF-B1 production but personally I think this is pretty major, for reasons stated in the quote above. I think if TGF-B1 suppression on its own doesn't work, it will at least be one part of the puzzle.
I copied this from the first page aswell:
..............FETAL SCAR-FREE HEALING...............ADULT HEALING WITH SCARRING
TGF1.............low/absent.............................................high
TGF2.............low/absent.............................................high
TGF3....................high................................................low
I think the most important factors are TGF-B1 and TGF-B3. We have discovered that ACE inhibitors suppress TGF-B1 production, so that's one part of the equation. Personally I think that on its own will help tremendously as we are now at the point where TGF-B3 outnumbers TGF-B1, even though TGF-B3 levels are still low. Juvista I believe is a form of TGF-B3, so on its own I'm not sure how well it would work, but with an ACE inhibitor I think it could work very well. Personally I would love to discover that there is a drug out there (like ACE inhibitors) that increases TGF-B3 that could be taken orally. So then we would take an ACE inhibitor to decrease TGF-B1 and this other drug to increase TGF-B3, but at this moment in time we don't know about any such drug. Having said that I have heard that needling (skin-rolling) increases TGF-B3 production and that copper peptides increase the levels of decorin in the skin. So maybe a combination of an ACE inhibitor (to suppress TGF-B1), needling (to increase TGF-B3) and copper peptides (to increase decorin levels) could help to reduce scars or get rid of them. Needling has been done before with some degree of success in some people but I wonder if the reason people aren't getting better results is because they still have high levels of TGF-B1? If everything was used in combination maybe we could see good results. Who knows? I suppose that hypothetically if this combination did work, the problem would be in breaking down the existing scar tissue.
Also I read that all atrophic scars are pretty similar in nature and that when there is a cure for acne scars that same treatment should work on stretch marks. I think it was a doctor who said it but I can't find the source again, so I may be wrong.
Thanks for all the posts guys.
Unbelievable how things get discussed again and again.
lol
Hey guys guess whoo, lol. Well just wanted to come back to check how things are coming along. But I've noticed some talk about juvista in this forum being portrayed as some sort of hope or something to look forward to, but as far as I can remember before I left I thought that we have established that juvista was a joke. If my absence has really missed out on something, I hope someone would enlighten me on this issue.
hey 
well, the pics are much better now (phase 3 photo), new dosis 500 must be something good, well see.
Hey guys guess whoo, lol.
Yo, what's up? lol
Well just wanted to come back to check how things are coming along. But I've noticed some talk about juvista in this forum being portrayed as some sort of hope or something to look forward to, but as far as I can remember before I left I thought that we have established that juvista was a joke. If my absence has really missed out on something, I hope someone would enlighten me on this issue.
Ya, well I used be skeptical about Juvista but somewhere along the line I got excited... As hey it might not do the SH trick but it seems to be able to improve things quite substantially, aethetically which may be worth the trouble. And it's coming out in Europe real soon, too! That's pretty exciting...and the outcome of the PIII trial seems promising...as they've improved their approach. So we'll see what happens. 
Juvista just seems like a reasonable alternative to actual SH... Actual SH is cool but it's still not yet being executed on a steady basis. I mean, sure there's Gary Hitzig saying all you have to do is use ACell and you'll completely reverse the damage but...I dunno. 
Don't know if it's as simple as he makes it appear as I contacted Jerry Cooley (his collegue), explained my situation and he told me that ACell alone might not be enough as certain volume losses and tissue distortions in general are beyond the ability of ACell to correct and fillers may be 'needed' to improve the results...which already sounds quite different than "Just use ACell and you're done." now doesn't it? He says he doesn't promise his patients "scar free" as that would imply just that and he says he can't promise his patients that. ACell is still promising, though. But yeah, I sorta changed my attitude towards Juvista.
Anyway, hope you're doing ok and I'll see you around on the the forum!
I don't see the fascination with specifically 'scar free' healing myself. Right now a single treatment that consistently delivered just 75%+ improvement to scars in one session would be a monumental breakthrough. Does no-one else agree with this?
Yes, I am with you. 75% would be AMAZING.
I don't see the fascination with specifically 'scar free' healing myself. Right now a single treatment that consistently delivered just 75%+ improvement to scars in one session would be a monumental breakthrough. Does no-one else agree with this?
If you read the thread you'll see scar free healing has been done.
I don't see the fascination with specifically 'scar free' healing myself. Right now a single treatment that consistently delivered just 75%+ improvement to scars in one session would be a monumental breakthrough. Does no-one else agree with this?
Well dude, I certainly do understand the "fascination". 
But of course I agree with the fact that 75% improvement is a pretty cool breakthrough. So hurrah for Juvista. But you have to admit, 100% SH would be pretty groovy too. 
I don't think Juvista is very superior in comparison to other treatments for surgical scars plus it will be very expensive for sure.
I'm pretty sure treatments like dermatix, silicone sheets or dermabrasion will give you exactly the same results on surgical scars if done early after excision and repeated.
The before after pictures of Juvista are not very impressive. Some peoples scars look the same without any kind of treatment after a longer period of time.
I think Juvista could be a benefit for people who tend to produce hypertophic scarring. But in general I don't think it helps that much with the appearance of scars if someone is a good healer, probably just speeds up the healing progress.
I don't think Juvista is very superior in comparison to other treatments for surgical scars plus it will be very expensive for sure.
I'm pretty sure treatments like dermatix, silicone sheets or dermabrasion will give you exactly the same results on surgical scars if done early after excision and repeated.
The before after pictures of Juvista are not very impressive. Some peoples scars look the same without any kind of treatment after a longer period of time.
I think Juvista could be a benefit for people who tend to produce hypertophic scarring. But in general I don't think it helps that much with the appearance of scars if someone is a good healer, probably just speeds up the healing progress.
Hey time will tell. If you ask me I'd say that you might be pleasantly surprised. But others might disagree. Anyway, what the truth of the thing is shall be revealed to all of us soon enough.
Just thought I'd post a heads up that the international scar meeting was yesterday and the day before that...in Tokyo. So the SCAR club people will probably post their probably lengthy report on their site soon in pdf format. So ya'll might wanna keep an eye on that.
If I remember correctly the title of the report of that previous meeting was "The turning point" which sounded somewhat promising. What will the title be this time around? 
lol
A new stem cell therapy from China.
http://www.finanzen.net/nachricht/EHSI-Cel...rocedure-973286
They use proton therapy to destroy scar tissue and then use stem cells for regeneration.
Interesting.
NEO
Maybe If the peelings medium with TCA or GLICOLIC can penetrate the skin and destroy some tissue fribotic, then we could use juvista after those peelings , via topical, like a gel, without recourse to revision of scar.
But I am not sure if a peeling with tca can destroy a little fibrosis in the skin with scars (I think we can only destroy the surface layer whit peelings).
Perhaps would be a treatment wonderful, use juvista via topical (like a gel),after a strong peeling.
But I am not sure if a peeling with tca can destroy a little fibrosis in the skin with scars (I think we can only destroy the surface layer whit peelings).
Perhaps would be a treatment wonderful, use juvista via topical (like a gel),after a strong peeling.
Glycolic acid doesnt penetrate deep enough. TCA can penetrate to the reticular dermis so in theory it should be able to penetrate deep enough. Having said this juvista does nothing to solve the problem of high levels of TGF-B1. It doesn't matter how much TGF-B3 you have, if there is still a lot of TGF-B1 there will still be some scarring. Personally I think suppressing TGF-B1 would be better than increasing levels of TGF-B3, after all it is the high levels of TGF-B1 that causes the scarring in the first place. Obviously it would be best to do both.
I really don't understand why no one on this forum seems to be interested in ACE inhibitors.
Personally my plan is to get enalapril (ACE inhibitor), take that for a while, then do a very strong TCA peel (which I have done before without results) hoping to destroy some of the scar tissue, then apply copper peptides to further supress TGF-B1 and increase decorin levels, all whilst taking supplements like zinc, vitamin c, msm etc. If this fails I may try needling in combination with these other things as needling is said to increase TGF-B3.
If all this fails I'll just have to wait for the next big breakthrough.
But I am not sure if a peeling with tca can destroy a little fibrosis in the skin with scars (I think we can only destroy the surface layer whit peelings).
Perhaps would be a treatment wonderful, use juvista via topical (like a gel),after a strong peeling.
Glycolic acid doesnt penetrate deep enough. TCA can penetrate to the reticular dermis so in theory it should be able to penetrate deep enough. Having said this juvista does nothing to solve the problem of high levels of TGF-B1. It doesn't matter how much TGF-B3 you have, if there is still a lot of TGF-B1 there will still be some scarring. Personally I think suppressing TGF-B1 would be better than increasing levels of TGF-B3, after all it is the high levels of TGF-B1 that causes the scarring in the first place. Obviously it would be best to do both.
I really don't understand why no one on this forum seems to be interested in ACE inhibitors.
Personally my plan is to get enalapril (ACE inhibitor), take that for a while, then do a very strong TCA peel (which I have done before without results) hoping to destroy some of the scar tissue, then apply copper peptides to further supress TGF-B1 and increase decorin levels, all whilst taking supplements like zinc, vitamin c, msm etc. If this fails I may try needling in combination with these other things as needling is said to increase TGF-B3.
If all this fails I'll just have to wait for the next big breakthrough.
Of course...it's a mix.
tca strong + juvista apply via topical like gel. and take analapril 1 or 2 month before peeling and keep take it 4 months more.