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1 minute ago, eliburgi said:And how long did it the balding process take :O?
Hmm, I see. Maybe we rly should all test our retinol levels. And maybe people are successful with fasting bec it depletes retinol...
Balding never stopped. I loose more every year. It wasn't like over night thing. It seems very inflammatory.
According to a study I read fasting also may increase retinol in tissues and organs due to less fat and insulin.
@under_tow I read the other day that a study found when supplementing vitamin A the liver let out more retinol than the increased consumption, maybe another way to remove it, but it was at a certain dosage this happen, smaller doses didn't work.
@CalcifiedBut it wasnt that aggressive right? It is one year since my hair loss started and if it goes on like this I am bald next year. No shit. Some hair doesnt even grow back when it falls out. MPB should be a gradual process not happen so instantly ...
But people here on this forum said fasting helped them heal or cured them. Any thoughts?
1 minute ago, eliburgi said:@CalcifiedBut it wasnt that aggressive right? It is one year since my hair loss started and if it goes on like this I am bald next year. No shit. Some hair doesnt even grow back when it falls out. MPB should be a gradual process not happen so instantly ...
Is your head itchy? Or is it just falling out? Have you seen a doctor? Any hair pustules?
@CalcifiedYes it was extremely itchy and red and inflammed when the hair loss started. Now it is itchy sometimes but the hair has clearly miniaturized and has not much color. Yes I have a seen a doctor 1 month after it started and they said its TE. They did blood tests and everything was ok. But now I have enough of going to doctors, because the truth is most dont know their stuff. After all they study and then regularly do some training or get informed by pharma... Most doctors just prescribe stuff...
Yeah my hairline has some pustules/pimples.
Areany of the original forum members here by the way? ^^
6 minutes ago, eliburgi said:@CalcifiedYes it was extremely itchy and red and inflammed when the hair loss started. Now it is itchy sometimes but the hair has clearly miniaturized and has not much color. Yes I have a seen a doctor 1 month after it started and they said its TE. They did blood tests and everything was ok. But now I have enough of going to doctors, because the truth is most dont know their stuff. After all they study and then regularly do some training or get informed by pharma... Most doctors just prescribe stuff...
Yeah my hairline has some pustules/pimples.
Yeah I did same and they tested thyroid came back within limits. Propecia didn't help either still kept falling out.
My pustules kill the follicles then move onto the next section. I have almost got this under control now.
Fasting does help everything but why nobody knows, is it the reduced retinol in blood or more retinol in tissues and organs? Or is because the body isn't so focused on digestion and can do other things?
The truth is are we deficient, toxic, or somewhat resistant to vitamin A? Or is it varied between organs and tissues, some high, some low now?
How do you control it? Yeah, we should not always ask "Why?" all the time. Just try out and if it works go with it.
But I still believe in fruits. I will keep you posted on my progress. But now I am interested in the VA theory and the VA detox diet. Will keep an eye on this.
5 hours ago, under_tow said:
Liver biopsy is the standard test, and studies going back to the 1980's are showing more and more that peoples livers are filling up with vitamin A. Fatty liver from both alcohol and non-alcohol factors are caused by vitamin A. Serum retinol is a subpar test, but the only one widely available. You can see the numbers start to come down the longer you are on low vitamin A diet, which should translate to lower liver and fat tissues storage. As the numbers come down, peoples symptoms lessen. This is the affect on my PAS symptoms as well.
I did accutane twice, high dose cod liver oil, high dose retinyl palmitate, high dose liver, high diary/egg intake, high dose beta carotene, and now at almost 1.5yrs VA free seeing relief. Getting vitamin A out is an long process. Liver can store up to two years worth, hence deficiency does not happen, it is in all foods. Like @MonsterDiesel mentioned it is very easy to test, just go VA free for a month. But remember as you switch from inflow of VA to outflow of VA, you will get detox reaction, as it is like being on accutane again, retinoic acid is being made for excretion. beef/rice/beans provided all the nutrient to keep DH and ALDH systems running to make retinoic acid, beans provide soluble fiber to catch VA in the bile as well for excretion. The first year for me was roller coaster of feeling like shit and feeling better, with a continual positive movement.
Beta carotene is just two retinol molecules, the only way for these to leave the body is by conversion to retinoic acid, the body is always producing 13-cis, along with other analogues during excretion.
https://www.jlr.org/content/31/2/175.long
https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.nut.2008.05.022
Results and conclusion:This study shows that consumption of carrot juice containing high concentrations of the provitamin A carotenoid-carotene results in slightly, non-significantly increased plasma ROL concentrations and strong,significantly increased (almost double, from 1.20 to 2.00 ng/mL) plasma concentrations of ATRA, whereas consumption of tomato juice and spinach powder results in no significant alteration in concentrations of plasma ROL and ATRA.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01977634
The concentrations of retinoic acid compounds were monitored by a newly developed highly sensitive HPLC procedure in plasma of six volunteers who received 833 IU vitamin A per kg body weight per day during a 20-day period. There was a significant increase of alltrans-retinoic acid (two-fold), 13-cis-retinoic acid (7-fold) and 13-cis-4-oxoretinoic acid (5-fold) over endogenous plasma levels of these retinoids. The same compounds had previously been found after treatment with the teratogenic drug isotretinoin (Roaccutan, Accutane). Our results raise the possibility that high vitamin A intake may carry a teratogenic risk attributable to increased levels of retinoic acid compounds generated from retinol by metabolic processes.
Carrot juice boosts ALL TRANS retinoic acid, which is the POLAR OPPOSITE of 13 cis retinoic acid, which is a GOOD thing.
Carrot juice creates a whole and natural molecule that the body can recognize and flush out. The body is confused by the ridiculous amount of 13 cis retinoic acid isolate. It doesn't know what to do with it. Carrot juice comes in and helps the body to become less confused by forming a whole and natural molecule that the body recognizes and can eliminate. This is the reason why I feel better when I consume carrot juice, not worse. You are doing people more harm than good by telling them to avoid a whole food that helps the body rid itself of accutane.
Dha and retinoic acid share the same receptor sites, rxr and rar. Anyone who wants to recover should be consuming organic carrot juice, tuna salad or another seafood, and Ceylon cinnamon capsules on a daily basis. Cinnamon opens up previously constricted detox pathways, and seafood and carrot juice replenish dha and true vitamin A, which the body recognizes and can eliminate. The body can't eliminate something it cant recognize, ie 13 cis retinoic acid. Carrot juice resolves this.
38 minutes ago, Aaron76 said:You are doing people more harm than good by telling them to avoid a whole food that helps the body rid itself of accutane.
You are doing harm by suggested that eating more vitamin A will get rid of damage caused by vitamin A.
22 minutes ago, Aaron76 said:The body can't eliminate something it cant recognize, ie 13 cis retinoic acid.
The body makes 13-cis naturally, it is a normal part of the retinoid pathways, it is eliminated the same way beta carotene is
The concentrations of retinoic acid compounds were monitored by a newly developed highly sensitive HPLC procedure in plasma of six volunteers who received 833 IU vitamin A per kg body weight per day during a 20-day period. There was a significant increase of alltrans-retinoic acid (two-fold), 13-cis-retinoic acid (7-fold) and 13-cis-4-oxoretinoic acid (5-fold) over endogenous plasma levels of these retinoids. The same compounds had previously been found after treatment with the teratogenic drug isotretinoin (Roaccutan, Accutane). Our results raise the possibility that high vitamin A intake may carry a teratogenic risk attributable to increased levels of retinoic acid compounds generated from retinol by metabolic processes.
2 hours ago, Calcified said:@under_tow I read the other day that a study found when supplementing vitamin A the liver let out more retinol than the increased consumption, maybe another way to remove it, but it was at a certain dosage this happen, smaller doses didn't work.
Post the study if you can find it. Seems likely that if the person is not overloaded, the liver would dump excess. If someone toxic, the opposite would most likely happen.
@Aaron76@under_towWhat were your main sides and what have you healed? How long is it since you stopped tane?
Did you guys every try a (mostly) fruitarian dietfor 3 months or longer? Or extensive fasting or juicing? Just curious ^^
Mine were/are: Constantly red skin on face (especially in sun), digestion issues (fat absorption, mushy/stinky/yellow stool), acne returned, depression, hair loss and thinning, joint pain, memory problems, eczema on belly and back and chest acne returned.
My face is getting better and overall I feel there are more "good" days (where I feel joy and gratitude). Also the eczema disappeared and back and chest acne are almost gone. Just some lonely pimples here and there which heal very fast (often in one day). Also my stool is getting better and more regularly is consistent and brown (sry for that info ^^ )
My diet is mostly fruitarian but occasionally I also consume raw/cooked vegetables and sometimes wild rice, quinoa, potatoes or millet or coconut milk.
8 hours ago, eliburgi said:How do you control it? Yeah, we should not always ask "Why?" all the time. Just try out and if it works go with it.
But I still believe in fruits. I will keep you posted on my progress. But now I am interested in the VA theory and the VA detox diet. Will keep an eye on this.
I find less itchy if I just wash with water, keep hair short dont wear hats, etc.
8 hours ago, under_tow said:You are doing harm by suggested that eating more vitamin A will get rid of damage caused by vitamin A.
The body makes 13-cis naturally, it is a normal part of the retinoid pathways, it is eliminated the same way beta carotene is
The concentrations of retinoic acid compounds were monitored by a newly developed highly sensitive HPLC procedure in plasma of six volunteers who received 833 IU vitamin A per kg body weight per day during a 20-day period. There was a significant increase of alltrans-retinoic acid (two-fold), 13-cis-retinoic acid (7-fold)and 13-cis-4-oxoretinoic acid (5-fold) over endogenous plasma levels of these retinoids. The same compounds had previously been found after treatment with the teratogenic drug isotretinoin (Roaccutan, Accutane). Our results raise the possibility that high vitamin A intake may carry a teratogenic risk attributable to increased levels of retinoic acid compounds generated from retinol by metabolic processes.
Post the study if you can find it. Seems likely that if the person is not overloaded, the liver would dump excess. If someone toxic, the opposite would most likely happen.
Yeah they weren't overloaded and your right I can find it now.
Regarding retinol my level is 2.1 (range .7-3) on 30,000 iu daily.
I've been as low as 1.8 and 2.3 is highest taking 80,000 iu daily.
It made me think that I too had no increase on 10,000 iu daily, I actually went backwards.
Concerning the VA detox diet: The man who came up with it claims that VA is the reason for so many autoimmune conditions right? So people with autoimmune conditions would be VA toxic right? But how comes that people following the medical medium protocol heal themselves from all kind of autoimmune "dis-eases". I mean there is lots of VA in this diet in the form of beta-carotene (just look at stuff like barley grass, spirulina, sweet potatoes, beets, carrots, all fruits, etc.). So it is hard to believe in this VA thing. I mean it might be different for people taking tane because of the retin-13. But then again, there might be different reasons behind it...
7 hours ago, Calcified said:Yeah they weren't overloaded and your right I can find it now.
Regarding retinol my level is 2.1 (range .7-3) on 30,000 iu daily.
I've been as low as 1.8 and 2.3 is highest taking 80,000 iu daily.
It made me think that I too had no increase on 10,000 iu daily, I actually went backwards.
You have to wonder where all that retinol is going and what your body is doing with it?
15 hours ago, eliburgi said:@Aaron76@under_towWhat were your main sides and what have you healed? How long is it since you stopped tane?
Did you guys every try a (mostly) fruitarian dietfor 3 months or longer? Or extensive fasting or juicing? Just curious ^^
I did. Back in 2006 I ate nothing but tropical fruits for 4 months. I lost a lot of weight and looked pretty good but I also developed a lot of anxiety and weakness, probably from not consuming protein.
It also didn't heal me from this Accutane nonsense.
I've done a 1 month potato diet two separate times as well.
16 hours ago, Aaron76 said:Carrot juice boosts ALL TRANS retinoic acid, which is the POLAR OPPOSITE of 13 cis retinoic acid, which is a GOOD thing.
Carrot juice creates a whole and natural molecule that the body can recognize and flush out. The body is confused by the ridiculous amount of 13 cis retinoic acid isolate. It doesn't know what to do with it. Carrot juice comes in and helps the body to become less confused by forming a whole and natural molecule that the body recognizes and can eliminate. This is the reason why I feel better when I consume carrot juice, not worse. You are doing people more harm than good by telling them to avoid a whole food that helps the body rid itself of accutane.
Carrots were the first food I instinctively cut out as they made me feel horrible - joint pain, headaches like someone was stabbing me, etc. If it makes you feel better then that's your n=1 experience and it sounds like you're consuming it regularly.
Consider cutting back then re-introduce it after a couple weeks and see if you still feel good.
@MonsterDiesel yes I do wonder, maybe someone here has the answer, or low retinol aswell regardless of diet, or maybe I am the only one like this.
@MonsterDieselOh respect dude. However, 4 months is too less to say its not working. Like you said VA detox should be done at least 2 years. It is a very long processbut for me things get slowlybetter with fruits. Anyway, happy you are doing so good on VA detox diet. Very interested in your further progress!
@CalcifiedSince you took tane long ago, did you heal most stuff by now?
17 hours ago, eliburgi said:@Aaron76@under_towWhat were your main sides and what have you healed? How long is it since you stopped tane?
Did you guys every try a (mostly) fruitarian dietfor 3 months or longer? Or extensive fasting or juicing? Just curious ^^
I did fruitarian for close to 6 months, did paleo, did milk diet, did potato diet, low fat - zero PUFA, high fat, low carb, zero carb, high carb, 7,10,20 water day fasts, 50+ day juice fast, name a supplement tried it, cinnamon, carrot... tried it all. Low VA was the last straw before suicide, there is was nothing left to try... I committed serious time to the mentioned diets, supplements, with what seemed to be healing, but always continued in a negative path of healing, but in reality they all contained vitamin A in some form, so I was not dumping any... closest thing I saw to real healing was the 20 day water fast, at the time didn't understand that is was no VA coming in.
My PAS symptoms are extreme dry flaky skin, that is also extremely oily = extreme combo skin, worse acne, dermatitis, hair shedding, insomnia, trouble with muscle gain, depression, minor libido issues, yellow skin, white tongue, bad breath, teeth that chip easily, and sore noisy joints.
This is still a theory, but I believe I am about half way healed, seems I am working at 2-3yrs to clear the liver and fat stores of a lifetime of too much vitamin A and accutane to top it all off. All the symptoms above have improved immensely, but I will continue on to 100% reversal. Biggest gauge I have is the largest organ, skin is improving. white tongue gone, normal breath, stronger teeth, better body composition, and the more restful sleep is really nice, full libido.
26 minutes ago, under_tow said:I did fruitarian for close to 6 months, did paleo, did milk diet, did potato diet, low fat - zero PUFA, high fat, low carb, zero carb, high carb, 7,10,20 water day fasts, 50+ day juice fast, name a supplement tried it, cinnamon, carrot... tried it all. Low VA was the last straw before suicide, there is was nothing left to try... I committed serious time to the mentioned diets, supplements, with what seemed to be healing, but always continued in a negative path of healing, but in reality they all contained vitamin A in some form, so I was not dumping any... closest thing I saw to real healing was the 20 day water fast, at the time didn't understand that is was no VA coming in.
My PAS symptoms are extreme dry flaky skin, that is also extremely oily = extreme combo skin, worse acne, dermatitis, hair shedding, insomnia, trouble with muscle gain, depression, minor libido issues, yellow skin, white tongue, bad breath, teeth that chip easily, and sore noisy joints.
This is still a theory, but I believe I am about half way healed, seems I am working at 2-3yrs to clear the liver and fat stores of a lifetime of too much vitamin A and accutane to top it all off. All the symptoms above have improved immensely, but I will continue on to 100% reversal. Biggest gauge I have is the largest organ, skin is improving. white tongue gone, normal breath, stronger teeth, better body composition, and the more restful sleep is really nice, full libido.
Ohh wow, thats great! So youre only on beef, rice and beans?
Its highly interesting that other people healed with a raw/fruitarian diet. But for you VA elimination works. We should go about this systematically, while some people go on a VA detox diet and some on a raw/fruitarian diet (without supplements!!! just herbs) and then after 6 months we could see how things went.
It must be one of those two paths (or both). I dont believe supplementswill heal us. Its diet and mind.
But it seems like there are not many people left here on this forum ^^ Or at least they dont post (like I did for a very long time).
34 minutes ago, eliburgi said:Ohh wow, thats great! So youre only on beef, rice and beans?
Yes lean beef, white/brown rice combo, black/white/lima beans for most meals. This pretty much a traditional diet in many geographies, meat, starch and legumes.
Staple zero vitA foods:
lean beef, lean chicken/turkey, egg white, non fatty fish, nuts
high oleic safflower oil, coconut oil, olive oil
wholegain sprouted bread, pasta, rice, potato, beans, oatmeal, white corn, non-fortified flours
turnip, celery and its root, parsnip, onion, garlic, radish, olives, pickles, white cabbage
banana, grapes, apples, pineapple, raisins, dates, blueberries, raspberries, strawberry, cherry
Apple juice, grape juice, lemonade, coconut milk, most rice/almond milk is VA fortified
Sugars, maple, honey, brown/white
Completely avoid:
Dairy, milk, cream, cheese, yogurt, kefir... egg yolks
Pork (pigs store vitA in fat like humans)
Leafy greens, peppers, broccoli, brussel sprouts, asparagus, etc... bright spices
All orange, red, yellow, fruits and vegg
Any food/supplement with added vitamin A *palmitate*
Sunscreen and skin creams, so many have VA added
45 minutes ago, eliburgi said:But it seems like there are not many people left here on this forum ^^ Or at least they dont post (like I did for a very long time).
Ya the forum had a lot of good stuff in the past, that really helped me when the VA theory came along, all the old posts on B1, B12, copper and molybdenum, biome... all inter-related to VA toxicity.
5 minutes ago, under_tow said:Yes lean beef, white/brown rice combo, black/white/lima beans for most meals. This pretty much a traditional diet in many geographies, meat, starch and legumes.
Staple zero vitA foods:
lean beef, lean chicken/turkey, egg white, non fatty fish, nuts
high oleic safflower oil, coconut oil, olive oil
wholegain sprouted bread, pasta, rice, potato, beans, oatmeal, white corn, non-fortified flours
turnip, celery and its root, parsnip, onion, garlic, radish, olives, pickles, white cabbage
banana, grapes, apples, pineapple, raisins, dates, blueberries, raspberries, strawberry, cherry
Apple juice, grape juice, lemonade, coconut milk, most rice/almond milk is VA fortified
Sugars, maple, honey, brown/whiteCompletely avoid:
Dairy, milk, cream, cheese, yogurt, kefir... egg yolks
Pork (pigs store vitA in fat like humans)
Leafy greens, peppers, broccoli, brussel sprouts, asparagus, etc... bright spices
All orange, red, yellow, fruits and vegg
Any food/supplement with added vitamin A *palmitate*Sunscreen and skin creams, so many have VA added
Do you include any of the mentioned zero VA foods too, like bananas, apples, onion, etc.?
52 minutes ago, eliburgi said:Do you include any of the mentioned zero VA foods too, like bananas, apples, onion, etc.?
First ~6 months was very strict, but yes I include peeled fruits, white vegg, but not as staples.
Use oatmeal once in awhile, but it is problematic for some, it has the carotenoids lutein and zeaxanthin, which seems to cause issues more so then carotene for some.
1 hour ago, under_tow said:First ~6 months was very strict, but yes I include peeled fruits, white vegg, but not as staples.
Use oatmeal once in awhile, but it is problematic for some, it has the carotenoids lutein and zeaxanthin, which seems to cause issues more so then carotene for some.
I can't even handle those. I have to be very strict. To be honest, I don't understand why. Can't eat any fruits or veggies at all and only black beans and white potatoes. I react to everything else. Anything with a hint of yellow (lutein) is no good for me either.
16 minutes ago, MonsterDiesel said:I can't even handle those. I have to be very strict. To be honest, I don't understand why. Can't eat any fruits or veggies at all and only black beans and white potatoes. I react to everything else. Anything with a hint of yellow (lutein) is no good for me either.
What is your reaction to alcohol?