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23 minutes ago, under_tow said:Palmitate is the preferred method of storage in the body, eating it is not normal, supping with it synthetically you are just increasing your vitamin A load in fat tissues(skin).
"Naturally occurring forms of vitamin A include retinol, retinol esters, retinal and retinoic acid. The alcohol form, retinol, predominates in the circulation but it is too toxic for storage. Instead, the liver stores retinol as retinyl esters - principally palmitate."
"The vitamin-A palmitate added to our staple foods is a manmade molecule. It is manufactured by combining vitamin-A with palmitic acid (a fat). But, vitamin-A palmitate is a dirty, sneaky trick to play on the body. When cells believe that they are taking up a lipid, its really a toxic lipid because it now has the vitamin-A molecule attached to it. For the most part, in the context of all human evolution, this molecule is completely unnatural in the human body. Not only is vitamin-A palmitate added to our foods, but its also added to many cosmetic products, including many sunscreens."
By eating VAP "...it more readily accumulates in tissue than what regular vitamin-A does. They claim that vitamin-A Palmitate is the primary storage form in the skin - yet they skim over the little detail that it is a synthetic molecule, and therefore, it should maybe not be accumulating in the skin at all."
FYI - liver function came back normal after my trial of 30,000 IU per day, so I don't think I'm overloaded with A. Also Thyroid function improved.
21 hours ago, DeepAcceptance said:I am just wondering if some one could address somebasic questions on the topic. I have come to realize today just how profound the changes might actually be. Here are some of the things that I at least suspicious of, I am feeling so hopeless right now I really can't put it into words.
Well first off, this is a chemotherapy drug, no body tells us that until it is too late,
Here what I suspect are some of the symptoms, these seem to be changes in my phenotypes,
1. A compromised endocrine system including severe damage to the adrenal glands and reproductive system. This is where the most drastic change has occurred, my stress response does not work the way that it used to. Not to mention I have no libido and shrunken testicles.
2. A damaged digestive system, my metabolism has seemingly slowed down dramatically
3. An inability to socialize like I used to. It almost seems like I have developed antisocial personality disorder. I simply do not feel the same range of emotions that I used to.
4. An inability to think straight or remember things like I used to.
5. A neediness for other people, I used to be so much more independent. I simply do not have the ability to take care of myself in the same ways.
6. A constant acheyness in my joints, My joints seem to be highly susceptibleto feeling pain.
7. A general lack of motivation and what I would call a moderate depression.
I simply do not feel like the same person. Right now I am just trying to manage symptoms but there doesn't seem to be any way to do this because there seems to be no way to reverse the epigenetic changes that have happened. If I was the person that I was before accutane I would be so pissed off butI have lost my ability to even get angry. I don't recognize myself anymore and no one seems to have any idea what I might be going through. I used to be able to run 5 miles at a time, now it is hard to just run a mile. I feel like I used to be a respectable person despite my acne but at this point nobody in my life respects me because of the person that I have become. Everyone says that life is not fair but this seems to be a level of unfairness that I did not think was possible. I used to be capable of creativity but now it is just gone. It seems like the only thing that has not been changed is my genetic code, or wait, it also causes telomere shortening never mind.
Here arethe questions that I have,
1. What do we actually understand about reversing the epigentic changes that have occurred?
2. Has the damage all ready been done on an epigenetic level so it can not be reversed?
Low carb/keto diet, no sugar, lots of water, vitamin b12 are keys. I would also take an anti inflammatory like N-acetyl cysteine
Gut Microbiota Species Can Provoke both Inflammatory and Tolerogenic Immune Responses in Human Dendritic Cells Mediated by Retinoic Acid Receptor Alpha Ligation
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2017.00427/full
probioticBacillus subtilisstrain limits this effect.
our knowledge about the interplay of molecular interactions during diet involving vitamin A supplementation, and the presence of gut microbiota species in the course of an ongoing human immune system is still limited in both health and diseases.
Immunomodulation by Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 in the murine lamina propria requires retinoic acid-dependent and independent mechanisms.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3660574/
^ I think I was wrong about this, this strain might be a problem, I believe it generates significant methane, methane like in sibo.
methane slows colonic transit. So you want to knock down methane and populate with a species that consumes methane.
Little bit of rambling here, but I have noticed a immediate powerful anti-inflammatory effect with hu58 bacillus subtilis. (isolated)
On 3/8/2019 at 11:48 AM, guitarman01 said:Gut Microbiota Species Can Provoke both Inflammatory and Tolerogenic Immune Responses in Human Dendritic Cells Mediated by Retinoic Acid Receptor Alpha Ligation
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2017.00427/full
probioticBacillus subtilisstrain limits this effect.
our knowledge about the interplay of molecular interactions during diet involving vitamin A supplementation, and the presence of gut microbiota species in the course of an ongoing human immune system is still limited in both health and diseases.
Immunomodulation by Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 in the murine lamina propria requires retinoic acid-dependent and independent mechanisms.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3660574/
^ I think I was wrong about this, this strain might be a problem, I believe it generates significant methane, methane like in sibo.
methane slows colonic transit. So you want to knock down methane and populate with a species that consumes methane.
Little bit of rambling here, but I have noticed a immediate powerful anti-inflammatory effect with hu58 bacillus subtilis. (isolated)
Do you think the fasting improvements have something to do with higher lactobacillus?
Have you noticed any improvements from lactobacillus probiotics?
There's a chance what I just mentioned about methane generating bifido could be sulfur, which idk if this could be a elimination pathway for retinoids. A release from DC cells. Retinoic acid has been shown to alter sulfur metabolism.
As far as other probiotics,I believe each strain needs to be looked at on a individual basis. It's just really hard to tell what's going on without testing.
Maybe seeing improvement in metabolic markers would be a start.
6 hours ago, Calcified said:Do you think the fasting improvements have something to do with higher lactobacillus?
Have you noticed any improvements from lactobacillus probiotics?
I did.
Making chucrut at home. My liver funtion was improved clearly and cholesterol levels dropped 30 points as well as PCR (protein c-reactive). I had blood tests before and after having chucrut. It must be madein an unusual way. Using a yogurt maker. Shredded RED cabagge and water. It is made like usual chucrut but without salt and using a yogurt maker 8hours or more... it will buble due to fermentation...
It contain lot of glutamine(protein in RED cabbage), vit c, and lactobacillus. ..
1 hour ago, Calcified said:Does Retinoic acid increase lactobacillus? Maybe something to consider?
Ive seen a study saying yes, but its hard to say whats really going on in a small sub group such as ourselves.
The Role of Retinoic Acid in Tolerance and Immunity
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1074761311002706
Vitamin Aelicits a broad array of immune responses through its metabolite,retinoic acid(RA). Recent evidence indicates that loss of RA leads to impairedimmunity, whereas excess RA can potentially promoteinflammatory disorders.
The GALT is a retinoic acid (RA)-rich environment
Microbial stimuli also appear to have an additional influence on RALDH expression
proliferative effects exerted by RA through modulating gut microbiota composition
I've already mentioned this, as I'm sure others have as well... but we REALLY need a central forum where we can discuss all this stuff.
This thread is so inefficient at conveying what works/what doesn't.
I headed over to
https://rxisk.org/accutane-30-years-of-trading-our-sex-lives-for-clear-skin/
All those people in the comments section, while some of course maybe from this thread, HAVE THE SAME SYMPTOMS.
Has anybody set up anything like this?
It's just, reading through so many accounts of the exact same problems I'm having (15 years!) after taking Accutane... I just feel frustrated this conversation is still boiled down to a thread on a random message board.
Im not hearing lately from anyone working with a practitioner of any description.
Either people dont have the money, are fed up with trying to seek help or would rather self diagnose - I empathise with all these scenario but still feel Im making best progress in years through working with a kinesiologist. Gut health has improved out of site via breaking down biofilms.
Also on Zinc, Iron, B12, Molybdenum, Coriander and what I consider to be the best - #6 Para Solve - getting rid of more parasites plus helps digest fats etc, look it up!!
This isnt just a chuck everything at it approach and see what sticks - these supplements have come about as my body needs them after months of calming nervous system and reducing inflammation.
Interestingly my Vit D came back at 52 which is just in range - again as we continue to improve gut and liver I expect this number to go up.
Unfortunately rebuilding the body takes time, money and working with a good practitioner, in my view you cant do this on your own - I spent years self diagnosing due to the frustrations of the medical community not offering any real help. Still see GP to get bloods but beyond that Id rather work with kinesiologist.
Hope this helps!!
Its been a while since I posted here but I think Ill make some updates.
- I made the mistake of taking a small amount of Fin in order to try to improve, but that only made things far worse.
-However, before hand, I think I reached a point where I was somewhat content.
- I fasted multiple times for up to 9 days this past fall, and I had some moderate improvements in libido after doing so. Also got rid of lethargic feelings for the most part (never had a non-lethargic winter before). I also did a repair protocol which mightve contributed to the success too.
- Ive tried doing a couple liver flushes, and am currently trying to go Vegan (starting over a week ago Sunday). Morning inflamation has significantly reduced.
Also, anybody know what happened to the Hackstasis forum? Its been quiet as of late?
On 3/5/2019 at 2:39 PM, DeepAcceptance said:I am just wondering if some one could address somebasic questions on the topic. I have come to realize today just how profound the changes might actually be. Here are some of the things that I at least suspicious of, I am feeling so hopeless right now I really can't put it into words.
Well first off, this is a chemotherapy drug, no body tells us that until it is too late,
Here what I suspect are some of the symptoms, these seem to be changes in my phenotypes,
1. A compromised endocrine system including severe damage to the adrenal glands and reproductive system. This is where the most drastic change has occurred, my stress response does not work the way that it used to. Not to mention I have no libido and shrunken testicles.
2. A damaged digestive system, my metabolism has seemingly slowed down dramatically
3. An inability to socialize like I used to. It almost seems like I have developed antisocial personality disorder. I simply do not feel the same range of emotions that I used to.
4. An inability to think straight or remember things like I used to.
5. A neediness for other people, I used to be so much more independent. I simply do not have the ability to take care of myself in the same ways.
6. A constant acheyness in my joints, My joints seem to be highly susceptibleto feeling pain.
7. A general lack of motivation and what I would call a moderate depression.
I simply do not feel like the same person. Right now I am just trying to manage symptoms but there doesn't seem to be any way to do this because there seems to be no way to reverse the epigenetic changes that have happened. If I was the person that I was before accutane I would be so pissed off butI have lost my ability to even get angry. I don't recognize myself anymore and no one seems to have any idea what I might be going through. I used to be able to run 5 miles at a time, now it is hard to just run a mile. I feel like I used to be a respectable person despite my acne but at this point nobody in my life respects me because of the person that I have become. Everyone says that life is not fair but this seems to be a level of unfairness that I did not think was possible. I used to be capable of creativity but now it is just gone. It seems like the only thing that has not been changed is my genetic code, or wait, it also causes telomere shortening never mind.
Here arethe questions that I have,
1. What do we actually understand about reversing the epigentic changes that have occurred?
2. Has the damage all ready been done on an epigenetic level so it can not be reversed?
This is pretty on point for all the issues I have!!! Its one of those posts where I get deja vuand think for a second I am reading my own post.
On 3/5/2019 at 11:39 PM, DeepAcceptance said:I am just wondering if some one could address somebasic questions on the topic. I have come to realize today just how profound the changes might actually be. Here are some of the things that I at least suspicious of, I am feeling so hopeless right now I really can't put it into words.
Well first off, this is a chemotherapy drug, no body tells us that until it is too late,
Here what I suspect are some of the symptoms, these seem to be changes in my phenotypes,
1. A compromised endocrine system including severe damage to the adrenal glands and reproductive system. This is where the most drastic change has occurred, my stress response does not work the way that it used to. Not to mention I have no libido and shrunken testicles.
2. A damaged digestive system, my metabolism has seemingly slowed down dramatically
3. An inability to socialize like I used to. It almost seems like I have developed antisocial personality disorder. I simply do not feel the same range of emotions that I used to.
4. An inability to think straight or remember things like I used to.
5. A neediness for other people, I used to be so much more independent. I simply do not have the ability to take care of myself in the same ways.
6. A constant acheyness in my joints, My joints seem to be highly susceptibleto feeling pain.
7. A general lack of motivation and what I would call a moderate depression.
I simply do not feel like the same person. Right now I am just trying to manage symptoms but there doesn't seem to be any way to do this because there seems to be no way to reverse the epigenetic changes that have happened. If I was the person that I was before accutane I would be so pissed off butI have lost my ability to even get angry. I don't recognize myself anymore and no one seems to have any idea what I might be going through. I used to be able to run 5 miles at a time, now it is hard to just run a mile. I feel like I used to be a respectable person despite my acne but at this point nobody in my life respects me because of the person that I have become. Everyone says that life is not fair but this seems to be a level of unfairness that I did not think was possible. I used to be capable of creativity but now it is just gone. It seems like the only thing that has not been changed is my genetic code, or wait, it also causes telomere shortening never mind.
Here arethe questions that I have,
1. What do we actually understand about reversing the epigentic changes that have occurred?
2. Has the damage all ready been done on an epigenetic level so it can not be reversed?
Read extinguishing the fires of hell by Grant Genereux. It wil clarity many of these symptoms for you, most notably the shrunken testicles, brain fog issues and aches joints.
On 3/6/2019 at 10:20 AM, under_tow said:Getting VA out is being tested now, and is looking like the right solution.
Do you know anyone who reverted Accutanes permanent effects by following a Zero-VA diet?
Genereux doesnt understand Accutane. And he thinks the drug is collected in the skin lipids permanently, without any element to prove this. He is not even interested in analyzing these skin lipids, but only in telling people to follow his diet.
If you agree with Genereux, you could analyse your skin lipids and look for any trace of the original drug. And then please share the results.
I corresponded with Genereux one year ago, and in his responses it was clear that he made false assumptions.
And I think that he used his wrong assumptions about Accutane as a base for developing his Vit A: the source of every malady theory.
2 hours ago, gutskinaxis said:I'm kind of hesitant to say that eliminating vitamin A would cure this. I eat salmon and feel great after. It could be the vitamin A found in cheese, but I'm still not sure.
One weird thing though is that I found that I cannot eat carrots anymore.
Really just read extinguishing the fires of hell.
6 hours ago, Akos said:Do you know anyone who reverted Accutanes permanent effects by following a Zero-VA diet?
Genereux doesnt understand Accutane. And he thinks the drug is collected in the skin lipids permanently, without any element to prove this. He is not even interested in analyzing these skin lipids, but only in telling people to follow his diet.
If you agree with Genereux, you could analyse your skin lipids and look for any trace of the original drug. And then please share the results.
I corresponded with Genereux one year ago, and in his responses it was clear that he made false assumptions.
And I think that he used his wrong assumptions about Accutane as a base for developing his Vit A: the source of every malady theory.
Hi @Akos
Zero vitamin A diet is a new approach, people with accutane use are just starting to test, I am 4 months into this.
Will give a report at 1 year, vitamin A depletion on a zero vitamin A diet takes 300-600 days, this is for people who have not taken accutane, just the vitamin A heavy regular western diet. Maybe ~2 years to heal substantively from accutane would be my theory. I am seeing benefits already, mainly skin quality and fatigue.
Accutane is retinoic acid, with the COOH carboxylic group bond rotated to a mirror position, it is not some lab drug, it is active vitamin A. This rotation allows it to be a patented vitamin A, sold for profit. So I don't think is stays in skin permanently, it is removed the same as all the other retins*.
Retinoic acid: C20H28O2
Accutane: C20H28O2
What are the wrong/false assumptions, please explain more, would be interested to see the responses from 1 year ago?
10 hours ago, under_tow said:Hi @Akos
Zero vitamin A diet is a new approach, people with accutane use are just starting to test, I am 4 months into this.
Will give a report at 1 year, vitamin A depletion on a zero vitamin A diet takes 300-600 days, this is for people who have not taken accutane, just the vitamin A heavy regular western diet. Maybe ~2 years to heal substantively from accutane would be my theory. I am seeing benefits already, mainly skin quality and fatigue.
Accutane is retinoic acid, with the COOH carboxylic group bond rotated to a mirror position, it is not some lab drug, it is active vitamin A. This rotation allows it to be a patented vitamin A, sold for profit. So I don't think is stays in skin permanently, it is removed the same as all the other retins*.
Retinoic acid: C20H28O2
Accutane: C20H28O2
What are the wrong/false assumptions, please explain more, would be interested to see the responses from 1 year ago?
If the anti A concept/theory is false, maybe improvements are primarily from zinc supplementation increasing metabolism/use of vitamin A?
Have you or gutskinaxis or wakeutane or anyone else on anti A noticed any correlations with backtracking on low zinc days?
7 minutes ago, Calcified said:If the anti A concept/theory is false, maybe improvements are primarily from zinc supplementation increasing metabolism/use of vitamin A?
Have you or gutskinaxis or wakeutane or anyone else on anti A noticed any correlations with backtracking on low zinc days?
Used zinc a lot over the last decade, with no improvements. But zinc is part of RBP, and this is important for removal, when A intake is zero and the A flood has stopped.
I had a fatty liver determined via ultrasound about 16 months ago
It has improved via better diet and more exercise, as the weight drops off waistline it also comes off the organs etc
I cant attribute this to an Anti Vit A diet thoughas I havent followed this diet strictlyjust yet.
The extinguishing the fires of hell guy follows a very strict, paleo type diet that is free of additives and preservatives. I think this alone helps him with his fatigue. My guess is that natural sources of vitamin a like salmon, sweet potatoes are okay in moderation, but the modified vitamin A found in dairy products and cereals is probably not good.