28 minutes ago, macleod said:

A lot of us have abstained from Vitamin A for many years post Accutane

What was your diet like on zero vitamin A, any links to people following a zero vitamin A diet for many years, I have never seen this in the decades of searching for answers to accutane, until Grant posted his work in Oct 2018.

The typical western diet has 1000s IU of vitamin A in all the different forms. Dairy, greens, pork, fortified fats, fortified food and drinks, bright fruit, bright vegg, its almost impossible to avoid it.

2 hours ago, under_tow said:

Please read this https://ggenereux.blog/2019/02/05/protein-synthesis-and-setbacks/

Depleting vitamin A will fix your gut. If anti, pre and probiotics were the answer, everyone would already be cured.

Not just by itself it wont.

Part of fixing my gut has included cleaning up parasites, Im also at the stage of breaking down biofilms via NAC

Both of these require supplements.

Not saying avoiding A isnt a good idea, its not the be all and end all thoughfor fixing injury sustained

32 minutes ago, TrueJustice said:

 

Not just by itself it wont.

Part of fixing my gut has included cleaning up parasites, Im also at the stage of breaking down biofilms via NAC

Both of these require supplements.

Not saying avoiding A isnt a good idea, its not the be all and end all thoughfor fixing injury sustained

biofilms and parasite build up because metabolism is down, thyroid is blocked by vitamin A, NADPH is lowered by vitamin A, so bile is down, stomach acid is down.

Intestinal stem cells are being killed of by vitamin A, so gut is leaky. Calcium is locked in cells to prevent the pH affects of retinoic acid, again pushing thyroid down

Remove vitamin A, lift metabolism, seal leaky gut, bile increases, stomach acid increases, candida, parasites, biofilms can't survive when the right pH is restored, proper basal temps are restored. The bad stuff can't survive in proper pH and proper basal temps.

Removing vitamin A will start this all down the right path.

Under_tow

What do you eat for breakfast may I ask?

Given Vit A is in so many things, it™s probably even in the B vitamins I take

I find mornings the hardest for eating right, thought I™d ask what you do.

1 hour ago, under_tow said:

biofilms and parasite build up because metabolism is down, thyroid is blocked by vitamin A, NADPH is lowered by vitamin A, so bile is down, stomach acid is down.

Intestinal stem cells are being killed of by vitamin A, so gut is leaky. Calcium is locked in cells to prevent the pH affects of retinoic acid, again pushing thyroid down

Remove vitamin A, lift metabolism, seal leaky gut, bile increases, stomach acid increases, candida, parasites, biofilms can't survive when the right pH is restored, proper basal temps are restored. The bad stuff can't survive in proper pH and proper basal temps.

Removing vitamin A will start this all down the right path.

Would you recomend some book to read about it? Thanks

Not sure how Grant Genereux thinks Activated Charcoal might help body rid Vit A?

Even with elevated levels the body still wants to hang on to A which makes me think it doesnt perceive it as a toxin even though we might know differently in our minds.

Taurine is mentioned as an aid to eliminating A but Im not entirely sure plus havent we all tried it before!?

Under_tow - have you had your cortisol levels tested?

Just curious as mine are low normal. Lots of studies indicating vitamin A can change cortisol levels. Some thought Tane reduced cortisol which suppressed acne, but for the people that got acne worse after Tane I wonder if Tane somehow increased cortisol.

Calcified

Without even needing to get blood tests my diagnosis of HPA dysfunction is very much related to cortisol levels - my kinesiologist has pointed that out.

I dont know much more than that though, just trusting in the process each week - currently working on the gut.

The last blood test that I happened to do did show a massive improvement in inflammation levels - all of this I attribute to kinesiology work over last 7 months.

Its costing a fair bit of money but I cant do nothing about this condition- I value my health too much.

3 hours ago, TrueJustice said:

Calcified

Without even needing to get blood tests my diagnosis of HPA dysfunction is very much related to cortisol levels - my kinesiologist has pointed that out.

I dont know much more than that though, just trusting in the process each week - currently working on the gut.

The last blood test that I happened to do did show a massive improvement in inflammation levels - all of this I attribute to kinesiology work over last 7 months.

Its costing a fair bit of money but I cant do nothing about this condition- I value my health too much.

I get the feeling it's a difficult balancing act as the system don't balance no more.

I recently developed varicose veins but I don't know what to do about it, found anything that helps? Where you on Tane for long? Do you get folliculitis?

14 hours ago, TrueJustice said:

Under_tow

What do you eat for breakfast may I ask?

Given Vit A is in so many things, it™s probably even in the B vitamins I take

I find mornings the hardest for eating right, thought I™d ask what you do.

I eat a big bowl of oats with oat milk and some sweet freedom for taste. 

Followed up by a couple of slices of wholemeal toast with extra virgin olive oil on. 

28 minutes ago, Justdry said:

I eat a big bowl of oats with oat milk and some sweet freedom for taste.

Followed up by a couple of slices of wholemeal toast with extra virgin olive oil on.

Yep, I have exactly this also for brekky, oats with oat milk is fast, tasty enough, fibre and no vit a. Gluten free bread is my preference for seconds

On 2/25/2019 at 3:47 AM, TrueJustice said:

Under_tow

What do you eat for breakfast may I ask?

Given Vit A is in so many things, it™s probably even in the B vitamins I take

I find mornings the hardest for eating right, thought I™d ask what you do.

1 cup dry quick oats, cooked in 2-3cups water with salt.  When cooked, add 1/2 cup egg white, 3 TBsp of white/brown sugar, 1 TBsp great lakes collagen, 1 TBsp coconut and safflower oil combined for mono and sat fats.   Sometimes dash of cinnamon(but it does have carotenoids in huge amounts).

I think its about 700cals with about ~25grams protein.

On 2/25/2019 at 4:44 AM, Francisco..Blanquez said:

Would you recomend some book to read about it? Thanks

I think Grant's books are best for VA info, the rest I the info I have learned over time, reading all the CFS, PAS, PFS and PSSD, Peat website/forums.

On 2/25/2019 at 8:29 AM, TrueJustice said:

Not sure how Grant Genereux thinks Activated Charcoal might help body rid Vit A?

Even with elevated levels the body still wants to hang on to A which makes me think it doesn™t perceive it as a œtoxin even though we might know differently in our minds.

Taurine is mentioned as an aid to eliminating A but I™m not entirely sure plus haven™t we all tried it before!?

I don't think he recs charcoal, not that I remember.   Main ways to get it out are sunshine exposure, supporting RBP with adequate protein/aminos in diet, and eating a diet devoid of VA.

I do think that charcoal, liver flushes and short or long water only fasting could be helpful as well.

On 2/25/2019 at 11:20 AM, Calcified said:

Under_tow - have you had your cortisol levels tested?

Just curious as mine are low normal.  Lots of studies indicating vitamin A can change cortisol levels.  Some thought Tane reduced cortisol which suppressed acne, but for the people that got acne worse after Tane I wonder if Tane somehow increased cortisol.

I did the 24hr salival test few years ago and my levels with all in range, nothing that looked way out of whack.

I believe since vitamin A reduces NADPH, and drives calcium into cells to buffer, driving the metabolism down, the cortisol and adrenaline have to rise naturally to keep blood sugar in check.   Getting the A out, should bring cortisol levels back inline.

On 2/25/2019 at 5:27 PM, Calcified said:

I get the feeling it's a difficult balancing act as the system don't balance no more.

I recently developed varicose veins but I don't know what to do about it, found anything that helps? Where you on Tane for long? Do you get folliculitis?

 

Grant's books talk about how new blood vessels are created in areas where VA overload is happening, its your bodies natural defense, getting the A out, should help to reverse this.

Just want to point out, that all the symptoms we are dealing with, people get these from not even taking accutane, but just from the daily VA load in the western diet.   We had the VA overload already, then dropped the VA nuclear bomb on our issues.

Discussion on depletion rates: [removed]

Most people on Grants forum are not accutane users, but have similar issues, getting the A out is the right path forward:

[removed]

Undertow -

I respect your knowledge and enthusiasm, when you say comments are not accutane users I think that is why I got into this mess. I spent 6 months fasting and consuming 250 IU daily vitamin A, I never eat breakfast have not done in decades. I was also taking zinc and thyroxine cause my thyroid is slow. I avoided vitamin A cause I watched the 60 minutes cancer warning on YouTube. I can tell your are aware zinc and thyroid hormone speeds up vitamin a metabolism. I honestly think my vitamin A tapped out. While on the diet I did feel very good and I lost 40 pounds, but I honestly have too much bile now. I think tane might somehow prevent vitamin A obsorption and metabolism as well.

25 minutes ago, Calcified said:

Undertow -

I respect your knowledge and enthusiasm, when you say comments are not accutane users I think that is why I got into this mess. I spent 6 months fasting and consuming 250 IU daily vitamin A, I never eat breakfast have not done in decades. I was also taking zinc and thyroxine cause my thyroid is slow. I avoided vitamin A cause I watched the 60 minutes cancer warning on YouTube. I can tell your are aware zinc and thyroid hormone speeds up vitamin a metabolism. I honestly think my vitamin A tapped out. While on the diet I did feel very good and I lost 40 pounds, but I honestly have too much bile now. I think tane might somehow prevent vitamin A obsorption and metabolism as well.

Yep forgot to mention that thyroid and vitamin A are transported on the same protein, Transthyretin, this is another way that vitamin A competes with thyroid, sending the metabolism downward, as TTR is being used up by VA. Sending the metabolism downward is protective, more fat cells means more storage for safely packing away the retins.

Curious what were your daily staples on the for the 6 months?

Also not to truly nitpick, I just want progress for all. 250IU/day is alot, some on low A, needed to go lower to get symptoms healing, also while dumping VA out on a low A diet, you will feel bad, there really are detox symptoms(hypervitaminosis)

34 minutes ago, under_tow said:

Yep forgot to mention that thyroid and vitamin A are transported on the same protein, Transthyretin, this is another way that vitamin A competes with thyroid, sending the metabolism downward, as TTR is being used up by VA. Sending the metabolism downward is protective, more fat cells means more storage for safely packing away the retins.

 

Curious what were your daily staples on the for the 6 months?

Wow, this explains everything my tsh was perfect, it's weird I could feel the fat melting off my body, I was in a constant state of ketosis.

I sometimes fasted for 48hrs only taking in diet cordial, I'd break the fast with a cheese and Vegemite sandwich with approx 200 cals, then start over again. I realise this is extreme, but my joints are stuffed and increased weight doesn't help.

After this diet my testosterone levels doubled, fasting insulin went down, triglycerides went down. I had gotten in great shape almost had a six pack, then I thought I'd developed colitis. Bile was dumping so hard it became painful and stomach was churning after every meal with any fat in it and thyroxine amplified it.

My stomach works better taking retinol palmitate.

My folliculitis was in overdrive, now retinal palmitate reduces it.

So thyroxine could potentially be making me more deficient in A? Is that why supps are helping me? Preventing deficiency?

Thanks for your help.

24 minutes ago, Calcified said:

Wow, this explains everything my tsh was perfect, it's weird I could feel the fat melting off my body, I was in a constant state of ketosis.

I sometimes fasted for 48hrs only taking in diet cordial, I'd break the fast with a cheese and Vegemite sandwich with approx 200 cals, then start over again. I realise this is extreme, but my joints are stuffed and increased weight doesn't help.

After this diet my testosterone levels doubled, fasting insulin went down, triglycerides went down. I had gotten in great shape almost had a six pack, then I thought I'd developed colitis. Bile was dumping so hard it became painful and stomach was churning after every meal with any fat in it and thyroxine amplified it.

My stomach works better taking retinol palmitate.

My folliculitis was in overdrive, now retinal palmitate reduces it.

So thyroxine could potentially be making me more deficient in A? Is that why supps are helping me? Preventing deficiency?

Thanks for your help.

My thinking goes like this, palmitate is helping, but will be bad in the long run. Similar to being on accutane

By overloading on more palmitate vitamin A, TTR will be used up keeping VA is transport. Thyroxine(T4) is transported by TTR into the liver to convert to active T3, since TTR is busy with all the palmitate, it won't be carrying the excess T4 you are supping, this will then be converted in to rT3, further driving your metabolism down. With impaired liver, taking T4 is probably a very bad idea.

Slowing metabolism is slowing your digestion, making it appear to function better.

It reduces your folliculitis, but when you stop it comes back? So its not cured.

Dumping bile would be mean your stool should be bright green and yellow and floating?

Accutane is known to dry bile up, like we have no bile at all, since liver function is impaired(storing all 13-cis acid), this is the NADPH reduction effect of accutane.

Have you ever tried a liver flush, this will tell you if your bile is working or not. Liver Gallbladder Flush

Undertow

When you did the Moritz liver cleanse, did you do it by the book?

Im thinking of doing more but hate having to go for the colon cleanse part - twice.

I wonder how critical that part is? -the first is probably more important, the follow up one is really to justensure theres no trapped stones which if reabsorbed can cause sickness.

10 hours ago, Calcified said:

I get the feeling it's a difficult balancing act as the system don't balance no more.

I recently developed varicose veins but I don't know what to do about it, found anything that helps? Where you on Tane for long? Do you get folliculitis?

 

Yes I have wicked varicose veins developed about 10 years ago.

You can get treatment- injections or surgery which involves stripping them out.

Ive done neither as they look ugly but dont hurt so just putting up with them for now, would lean more towards injections first up.

My specialist knew fuckall about the cause of them or even what Accutane is which was why I saw him - I thought he could shed light on liver issues or something but just didnt know anything.

Undertow says its due to VA trying to get out - he could be right!!?? I dont know

Yoga and stretching helps, there are also essential oils - Calendula Oil for example and from memory Cypress oil which you can apply to the legs.

8 hours ago, under_tow said:

My thinking goes like this, palmitate is helping, but will be bad in the long run. Similar to being on accutane

By overloading on more palmitate vitamin A, TTR will be used up keeping VA is transport. Thyroxine(T4) is transported by TTR into the liver to convert to active T3, since TTR is busy with all the palmitate, it won't be carrying the excess T4 you are supping, this will then be converted in to rT3, further driving your metabolism down. With impaired liver, taking T4 is probably a very bad idea.

Slowing metabolism is slowing your digestion, making it appear to function better.

It reduces your folliculitis, but when you stop it comes back? So its not cured.

Dumping bile would be mean your stool should be bright green and yellow and floating?

Accutane is known to dry bile up, like we have no bile at all, since liver function is impaired(storing all 13-cis acid), this is the NADPH reduction effect of accutane.

Have you ever tried a liver flush, this will tell you if your bile is working or not. Liver Gallbladder Flush

Yes towards the end of my diet it was bright green, I have increased floating now also.

I will get test results for liver soon, I do wonder what is happening there.

I tried a gallbladder flush once, didn't seem to help. According to ct scans I have no gallstones.

You mentioned you have supplemented palmitate, did anything improve?

9 hours ago, Calcified said:

You mentioned you have supplemented palmitate, did anything improve?

I did high dose palmitate for around 4months (500K IU / day), at the time, summer 2016 thinking it would work like accutane, since it was the only thing that cleared my skin.

Keep my skin somewhat clear, and I turned yellow/orange! But it was no cure, and all my other health problems persisted, bad sleep, anxiety/depression, extreme oily skin, extreme flaky skin, vision started to deteriorate...

Are your hands, feet and nose always cold, feet get sweaty? Have you tested your morning oral basal temp? Also what is your heart rate per minute?

57 minutes ago, under_tow said:

I did high dose palmitate for around 4months (500K IU / day), at the time, summer 2016 thinking it would work like accutane, since it was the only thing that cleared my skin.

Keep my skin somewhat clear, and I turned yellow/orange! But it was no cure, and all my other health problems persisted, bad sleep, anxiety/depression, extreme oily skin, extreme flaky skin, vision started to deteriorate...

 

Are your hands, feet and nose always cold, feet get sweaty? Have you tested your morning oral basal temp? Also what is your heart rate per minute?

My feet always used to get really sweaty for a good few years after accutane. If i wriggled my toes they've just feel completely wet. It's gone away in recent times though.

1 hour ago, under_tow said:

I did high dose palmitate for around 4months (500K IU / day), at the time, summer 2016 thinking it would work like accutane, since it was the only thing that cleared my skin.

Keep my skin somewhat clear, and I turned yellow/orange! But it was no cure, and all my other health problems persisted, bad sleep, anxiety/depression, extreme oily skin, extreme flaky skin, vision started to deteriorate...

 

Are your hands, feet and nose always cold, feet get sweaty? Have you tested your morning oral basal temp? Also what is your heart rate per minute?

My morning temps were really low prior to thyroxine not sure these days, none of my body sweats or my feet, my heart rate is normal, I did see a heart guy which he found from sitting to standing it jumps 80 to 100bpm. My hands tend to be cold. One thing I must point out after my reduced vitamin a diet, I got a constant runny nose and was colder than most people.

That is a large palmitate dosage, did it make you gain weight or loose weight? read palmitate increases iodine uptake did it make you warmer? Were you taking zinc at the same time?

I take zinc a few times a week to prevent copper toxicity, increase testosterone and help vitamin A metabolism.

Honestly be careful with anti vitamin A, we maybe different to other people, like most vitamins there is probably a sweet spot.

sounds good.

On 2/23/2019 at 6:33 PM, under_tow said:

I think zinc and adequate protein are probably best to make sure retinol binding protein RBP is supported.

People have been down this road before. A vitamin a deplete diet doesn't seem to be enough, so then a person tries to purge the retinoic acid.

just like that youtube video. This is a thought process regurgitated as early as the 80s. So renewed interest changes things? A person could be chasing a ghost that's no longer there, this could get them in even more trouble.

Not that I disagree with all your thoughts, but that canadian that wrote that book and has that blog you mention, kind of loses me when he declares vitamin a, isnt even a vitamin, its poison.

There is much real research to debunk this.

Alsothe placebo effect can be a very powerful thing, just speaking for myself.

I believe there can still be a current reaction with vitamin a, but that's about a few hundred substances at this point as well, its not exclusive.

On 2/24/2019 at 7:17 AM, under_tow said:

Depleting vitamin A is the cure.

The only assumptions I make is assuming there's a chance im wrong when looking at a lot of this, it helps me keep moving.

Thats why doing things like in Dubya's last post make good sense as a cover all bases approach.

9 hours ago, guitarman01 said:

The only assumptions I make is assuming there's a chance im wrong when looking at a lot of this, it helps me keep moving.

Thats why doing things like in Dubya's last post make good sense as a cover all bases approach.

 

People have done the depleted vitamin A thing - but i don't think people have done it for as long as people like Grant have done it for and the people active on his forum. We're talking years of depleted vitamin A for recovery. I've been doing it since Mid December, noticing some changes but they're back and forth. Some days my hands and knuckles aren't anywhere near as dry as they have been, but some days it comes back a little. The skin around my chin/mouth is becoming active with whiteheads, which doesn't feel like a good thing, but it does mean there's some sebum production i guess.