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11 hours ago, User2 said:However, having said this, I remembered reading someones comment about having had several fecal replacements with no improvements, which is contrary to the above. Perhaps the perfect gut biome for one isnt ideal for another.
I think our problem is not in the colon (in same particular case maybe too). Fecal replacement is done there, in the colon. Our problem is in the small intestine and stomach.
When you do 16hours fasting you feel good even whenyou have not donne poo...
I think our lining was damaged, the same our libs. Them some good bacteria had not a good place to live and others like fungus or yeast took place. It makes microholes in the intestines hence permeability. The liver is working a lot because of the toxins yeast and fungus produce.
Maybe the lack of energy come from there, a stresed liver, and the lack of some very important vitamins like b12, folic acid, D, and maybe some more since the intestine is damaged and can not absorb them properly.
A theory for the problem digesting fats is that because of the micropores in our intestines... acids can go to our body... so our pH is lower ( I think lower mean more acid and higher more alcaline). So to keep a balanced accidity our liver produce lessaccids...which are needed to digest fats.
Why you feel good when doing fasting? Because the liver is not stresed.
That bad bacteria are not metabolising food and producing toxins which stress the liver. When the liver works well tiroids works better and hormones can be produced .
Moreover, the food metabolised by that fungus and yeast.... are gluten and sugar (included fruit and maybe all kind of sweet thing(not sure because there is a lot of sweeteners)). That is why you feel much better, like cured, when you do a "NO ALMOST" free gluten and sugar diet. Anyway each oneshould investigate for the better food
Thank you @under_towfor reintroducing the concept of vitamin a toxicity. Its how multi-faceted this problem is that leads us to shoot of on so many wild tangents, although they are all intertwined one way or another I suppose.
Im reading Grants first book now and having such a paradigm shift which regards to how toxic vitamin a can be on the body and really kicking myself that I havent made this realisation myself. Total vitamin a elimination diet for minimum 6 months isnt that hard.
41 minutes ago, whackutane said:Thank you @under_towfor reintroducing the concept of vitamin a toxicity. Its how multi-faceted this problem is that leads us to shoot of on so many wild tangents, although they are all intertwined one way or another I suppose.
Im reading Grants first book now and having such a paradigm shift which regards to how toxic vitamin a can be on the body and really kicking myself that I havent made this realisation myself. Total vitamin a elimination diet for minimum 6 months isnt that hard.
If you really go near to zero Vitamin A consumption, this is a very very extreme diet.
2 hours ago, whackutane said:Thank you @under_towfor reintroducing the concept of vitamin a toxicity. Its how multi-faceted this problem is that leads us to shoot of on so many wild tangents, although they are all intertwined one way or another I suppose.
Im reading Grants first book now and having such a paradigm shift which regards to how toxic vitamin a can be on the body and really kicking myself that I havent made this realisation myself. Total vitamin a elimination diet for minimum 6 months isnt that hard.
Excellent, I am close to 4 months vit A free now, and symptoms clearing nicely, but slowly. Please report back how you are doing, thanks.
1 hour ago, Roland1968 said:
If you really go near to zero Vitamin A consumption, this is a very very extreme diet.
Not super extreme, easier than low carb or low fat.
Staple zero vitA foods:
lean beef, lean chicken/turkey, egg white, non fatty fish, nuts
coconut oil, olive oil, sunflower oil
bread, pasta, rice, potato, beans, oatmeal, cornmeal, non-fortied cereals
cauliflower, turnip, celeriac, parsnip, onion, garlic, radish, olives, pickles, cabbage
banana, grapes, apples, pineapple, raisins, dates, blueberries, raspberries, strawberry, cherry
Apple juice, grape juice, coconut milk, most rice/almond milk is palmitate fortified
Sugars, maple, honey, brown/white
9 hours ago, Calcified said:Under_tow - I used to think accutane was stored in us, but im not too sure now.
This won't be true for everyone, but look at your skin around your eyes, feet and hand calluses in extremely bright light, like sunlight. Are they tinged yellow/orange/brownish? Feet dry or cracked? This is vitamin A locked in storage. Just like vitamin D, its fat soluble and locked away, if you took vit D in the amounts that accutane was prescribed(millions of IU), it would be locked away in fat storage just the same.
I have done 20 Moritz liver flushes and long water fasts, they help, but its diet of zero vitamin A that are now clearing my symptoms. Stored accutane needs to be depleted, but no joke it will take months, not days or weeks.
1 hour ago, under_tow said:Excellent, I am close to 4 months vit A free now, and symptoms clearing nicely, but slowly. Please report back how you are doing, thanks.
Not super extreme, easier than low carb or low fat.
Staple zero vitA foods:
lean beef, lean chicken/turkey, egg white, non fatty fish, nuts
coconut oil, olive oil, sunflower oil
bread, pasta, rice, potato, beans, oatmeal, cornmeal, non-fortied cereals
cauliflower, turnip, celeriac, parsnip, onion, garlic, radish, olives, pickles, cabbage
banana, grapes, apples, pineapple, raisins, dates, blueberries, raspberries, strawberry, cherry
Apple juice, grape juice, coconut milk, most rice/almond milk is palmitate fortified
Sugars, maple, honey, brown/whiteThis won't be true for everyone, but look at your skin around your eyes, feet and hand calluses in extremely bright light, like sunlight. Are they tinged yellow/orange/brownish? Feet dry or cracked? This is vitamin A locked in storage. Just like vitamin D, its fat soluble and locked away, if you took vit D in the amounts that accutane was prescribed(millions of IU), it would be locked away in fat storage just the same.
I have done 20 Moritz liver flushes and long water fasts, they help, but its diet of zero vitamin A that are now clearing my symptoms. Stored accutane needs to be depleted, but no joke it will take months, not days or weeks.
I do get red peeling skin sunlight.
It possibly could be in there and be preventing normal vitamin a from doing its job properly. Agree or disagree?
We do need some vitamin a in order to function properly.
11 minutes ago, Calcified said:I do get red peeling skin sunlight.
It possibly could be in there and be preventing normal vitamin a from doing its job properly. Agree or disagree?
We do need some vitamin a in order to function properly.
Jury is probably still out, but reading through Grant's work, vitamin A is not necessary at all, and most likely mistakenly classified as a vitamin early in the 20th century.
My take is pre-accutane, acne in adolescents is caused by vitamin A. Vitamin A is very high in western diets. Accutane is hypervitaminosis overkill, used as chemo to shut body down, and ya its clears acne for some. To get back to pre-acne state, you need to deplete vitamin A.
Alcohol and smoking breakdown vitamin A. Have any friends who smoke and drink and eat junk all day with clear skin? wonder why?
@under_towIll probably find it in the book soon enough, but what does grant mention about how vit a is brought out of the body when on a total elimination diet? Is it just slowly getting used in what basic functions it may provide?
18 minutes ago, whackutane said:@under_towIll probably find it in the book soon enough, but what does grant mention about how vit a is brought out of the body when on a total elimination diet? Is it just slowly getting used in what basic functions it may provide?
Getting it out actually causes lots of bad symptoms, its like being on accutane again, as retinoic acid is dumped out into blood for elimination. Things that help retinol binding protein(zinc, adequate protein intake) should assists.
I am somehow not a 100% convinced, that the Vitamin A intoxication theory is correct. Isotretinoin is not exactly Vitamin A. Isotretinoin is 13-cis-retinoic acidand related to Vitamin A but not identical to Vitamin A. How can we be sure, that Isotretinoin gets stored in the fat calls and in the liver exactly as Vitamin A?
12 minutes ago, Roland1968 said:I am somehow not a 100% convinced, that the Vitamin A intoxication theory is correct. Isotretinoin is not exactly Vitamin A. Isotretinoin is 13-cis-retinoic acidand related to Vitamin A but not identical to Vitamin A. How can we be sure, that Isotretinoin gets stored in the fat calls and in the liver exactly as Vitamin A?
Its a mirror image of ATRA, the body is able to remove 13-cis, it is vitamin A.
13-cis was patented, because you can't make money selling vitamin A. So patent the mirror image and profit.
12 minutes ago, Roland1968 said:I am somehow not a 100% convinced, that the Vitamin A intoxication theory is correct. Isotretinoin is not exactly Vitamin A. Isotretinoin is 13-cis-retinoic acidand related to Vitamin A but not identical to Vitamin A. How can we be sure, that Isotretinoin gets stored in the fat calls and in the liver exactly as Vitamin A?
A dermatologist told me 6 months it's gone, cause that's when women can get pregnant, Ive read it's actually quicker then that.
1 hour ago, Roland1968 said:look here. it seems different.
Yes different, the COOH is mirrored to ATRA. But read the title "Naturally Occuring Retinoids", they are all vitamin A.
1 hour ago, Calcified said:A dermatologist told me 6 months it's gone, cause that's when women can get pregnant, Ive read it's actually quicker then that.
It's not gone it is in protective storage, your liver and fat.
On 2/11/2019 at 7:07 PM, guitarman01 said:Im not sure where you are, but here in the states a higher dosage of bifido 35624, which has actually been reclassified as longum not infantis became available at 5 billion cfu per pill.
Im taking 10 billion daily, this is still rather expensive at 60 dollars a month, but this dosage until now was not feasible with the 1 billion capsules.
This 10 billion per day was the same dosage they used in the CFS study that lowered inflammatory markers.
Ive also looked at this strain specifically because you can find wordage in recent studies that metabolizing retinoic acid was a key regulatory feature of this bacterium.
"Citing evidence that the microbes in the gut actually regulate the immune system outside of the gut, people with chronic fatigue syndrome were given sachets containing eitherBifidobacterium infantis 35264 (11010CFU viable) or maltodextrin (5 grams) for eight weeks. At the end of eight weeks the three cytokine levels were measured to see if inflammation was indeed reduced."
WithB. infantis significantly reducing the levels of all three pro-inflammatory markers, it appeared that eight weeks ofB. infantis supplementation did reduce the inflammation present in this disorder.
as far as having other things going on simultaneously, I tested positive for all the Candida antibodies Mayo used to test.
Discontinued: Candida albicans Serology and Antigen Tests
http://lab.spectrumhealth.org/2018/07/30/discontinued-candida-albicans-serology-and-antigen-tests/
Candidaantibodies are detected in 20-30% of healthy individuals
you can also look at the flip side of this, 70 to 80 percent might have something going on.
Where did you purchase yourBifidobacterium 35624?
4 hours ago, StopAccutane said:Where did you purchase yourBifidobacterium 35624?
well living in the US, I first noticed the higher dosage at walgreens. I think its a little cheaper on Amazon.
As far as effects, there are noticable effects at a dosage of 5 to 10 billion, to the point where I wouldnt want to take any more than that.
The problem is I can't tell if they will ultimately end up being positive.
So this probiotic bacteria is a key regulator of retinoic acid metabolism.
So is there any chance a bacteria like this could actually be the problem? A dominance of bifido?
Not much literature indicates that a microbiome dominated by bifido is a bad thing, so maybe not, but I keep this in mind.
Looking at one angle, this is what im looking for,
The effect of probiotics on immune regulation, acne, and photoaging
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5418745/
An ideal probiotic would be capable of boosting the hosts immune response to true threats, while inhibiting an ongoing immune reaction when no threat is present. We call this concept immune regulation.
Portrait of an immunoregulatory Bifidobacterium. - NCBI
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22572827
Portrait of an immunoregulatory Bifidobacterium. ... In this addendum, we summarize our recent data, showing that oral consumption ofBifidobacteriuminfantis 35624 is associated with enhanced IL-10 secretion and Foxp3 expression in human peripheral blood.
Mar 9, 2012 -after 3 months ofisotretinointreatment (post-treatment) in the acne group. .... Th17 polarization and enhancesFoxP3expression through a Stat-.
Guitarman
What are your thoughts on Tane still being stored in our fat cells etc years later? That to heal we need to avoid Vit A?
If I didnt know any better Id say you believe the gut is in need of repair based on all your posts and links - that would suggest to me that no amount of avoiding Vit A will make one iota of difference in the healing process of a damaged gut, altered bacteria etc?
Technically speaking we can pursue both, that is work on an anti Vit A diet whilst simultaneously workingon trying to fix a damaged gut, just that its a hell of a change to follow with the no A diet that may not be necessary in the scheme of things.
Im making good progress with kinesiologist with gut and its not like they are saying go on the anti Vit A diet, infact Id of tested badly to A if it was an issue by now - my body response would of said by now if A was stressing me out, it isnt!!
3 hours ago, Calcified said:If vitamin a toxicity was an issue after treatment wouldn't females be worse off than males with the amount of retinol in makeup?
This is a very good question. I have experienced for a long time problems whey I apply moisturizer or suncream. Suncream seems to be the most troublesome. After some hours I get symptoms very similar to when I took accutane e.g. headache, dizziness and so on. I was always wondering if this had to do withVitamin A in the suncream. Many suncreams contain some sort of oil e.g.Butyrospermum Parkii Butter,Olea Europaea Fruit Oil, which has VitaminA in it.
But then on the other hand why don't I get such symptoms when I head food with Vit A in it? Shouldn't the intake through food be much higher compared to application on the skin? It is one of those mysteries after accutane treatment, that I do not get my head around.
On 2/21/2019 at 9:19 AM, TrueJustice said:Guitarman
What are your thoughts on Tane still being stored in our fat cells etc years later? That to heal we need to avoid Vit A?
If I didnt know any better Id say you believe the gut is in need of repair based on all your posts and links - that would suggest to me that no amount of avoiding Vit A will make one iota of difference in the healing process of a damaged gut, altered bacteria etc?
Technically speaking we can pursue both, that is work on an anti Vit A diet whilst simultaneously workingon trying to fix a damaged gut, just that its a hell of a change to follow with the no A diet that may not be necessary in the scheme of things.
Im making good progress with kinesiologist with gut and its not like they are saying go on the anti Vit A diet, infact Id of tested badly to A if it was an issue by now - my body response would of said by now if A was stressing me out, it isnt!!
On 2/21/2019 at 11:18 AM, Calcified said:If vitamin a toxicity was an issue after treatment wouldn't females be worse off than males with the amount of retinol in makeup?
On 2/21/2019 at 3:20 PM, Roland1968 said:
This is a very good question. I have experienced for a long time problems whey I apply moisturizer or suncream. Suncream seems to be the most troublesome. After some hours I get symptoms very similar to when I took accutane e.g. headache, dizziness and so on. I was always wondering if this had to do withVitamin A in the suncream. Many suncreams contain some sort of oil e.g.Butyrospermum Parkii Butter,Olea Europaea Fruit Oil, which has VitaminA in it.
But then on the other hand why don't I get such symptoms when I head food with Vit A in it? Shouldn't the intake through food be much higher compared to application on the skin? It is one of those mysteries after accutane treatment, that I do not get my head around.
These questions are all answered in Grant's PDF on vitamin A, take the time to read it, and it will start to make sense.
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On 2/21/2019 at 7:43 PM, under_tow said:
These questions are all answered in Grant's PDF on vitamin A, take the time to read it, and it will start to make sense.
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His book extinguishing the fire of hell is also well written and makes references to accutane. Very thorough. We should all read it!
Ive got it and have read it already.
We have to challenge it though as much as it sounds convincing - its one person only saying this, hes not the only person with alternative views. My kinesiologist has alternatative views but isnt saying go anti Vit A.
Regardless, Id like to hear the views of some veterans on here please about it?
2 hours ago, TrueJustice said:Ive got it and have read it already.
We have to challenge it though as much as it sounds convincing - its one person only saying this, hes not the only person with alternative views. My kinesiologist has alternatative views but isnt saying go anti Vit A.
Regardless, Id like to hear the views of some veterans on here please about it?
He does make incredibly convincing arguments though, and yes we PAS sufferers are probably at a whole new level with how we have been afflicted, yet we were still quite simply at the mercy of whatclearly was vitamin a toxicity. To dispute that is plain ignorant.
Its a bandwagon Im more than comfortable with jumping on when hearing some posters here have suffered for 20+ years. A 6 month vit a elimination diet should be a walk in the park and a drop in the ocean in regards to that timescale.
my 500 to 700 iu of vitamin a in my milk and cereal is a drop in the bucket compared to Accutane,
and if its not gone after 20 years already, eliminated this kind of amount probably isn't going to make a lot of difference. your also looking at one of the end products in Accutane right?retinoic acid. it skipped the conversion steps, maybe these conversion steps are normally a safety measure.
I will agree that any excess vitamin a is not the best idea. For some reason we were having a problem with it in the first place,not everyone does to the same extent apparently.
As far as trapped in tissues, wouldn't this be obvious in some murine studies?
They know when women can get pregnant again without risk of birth defects, so how does that work?