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16 hours ago, guitarman01 said:@mariovitaliHere is some cell growth right here. Ive been looking strictly at mk7. I'm not sure if there is a case for mk4.
mk4 is already a drug in Japan. It looks like mk7 is going to enter the drug market.Vitamin K2-enhanced liver regeneration is associated with oval cell expansion and up-regulation of matrilin-2 expression in 2-AAF/PH rat model.
vitamin K2 treatment enhances liver regeneration
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24236453
K2 also grows and developsthe liver postpartumfrom birth. It looks like bacteria is also involved, meaning it might originatefrom a long chain menaquinone.Heres Cell Death. No k2 is Embryonic Lethal.
Vitamin K2Biosynthetic Enzyme, UBIAD1 Is Essential for Embryonic Development of Micehttp://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0104078
Great find there, thanks Guitarman. If i recall correct, you will not be taking a Fibroscan test. Have you started taking K2-MK7? How do you feel?
Just to give you a short update. I am now part of a small Research team where we are looking at ME/CFS primarily under the supervision of someone who knows about Genetics and Biological Pathways. I try to convince them to look at the Liver of ME/CFS patients using Fibroscan or Liver Biopsy. I was told that "the Liver has been ruled out" and just yesterday i asked on what grounds this was done, given the fact that no Fibroscan/Biopsy took place (and no blood test can rule out Liver Fibrosis/ Disease).
10 days ago i met someone with severe Fibromyalgia. Upon asking him questions regarding his Liver he said that 16 years ago (...!) he had Liver biopsy performed and the test showed NASH (Non-Alcoholic Steatohepatitis). What i therefore am seeing is a significant number of patients having previous problems with Liver / Gallbladder. This is a great case study as there are not many people having performed Liver Biopsy (which is the Gold Standard for ruling out Liver problems)
I will keep you posted.
4 minutes ago, brendan452 said:Page 587 and still taking shots in the dark at what it could be and no closer to a cure
Thats not our fault, shots in the dark, weve been left in the dark.
medical community has blood on its hands, fucking peoples lives up the way it has for years. It does some incredible stuff too, it would be ignorant not to say that, but when it gets it wrong it sure is a sad state of affairs to say the least....
Accutane suffering is just plain wrong and unnecessary!!!
14 minutes ago, TrueJustice said:Thats not our fault, shots in the dark, weve been left in the dark.medical community has blood on its hands, fucking peoples lives up the way it has for years. It does some incredible stuff too, it would be ignorant not to say that, but when it gets it wrong it sure is a sad state of affairs to say the least....
Accutane suffering is just plain wrong and unnecessary!!!
The problem is that many derms presribe this easily, or often play down long term consequences. As a result of most effects not reported, many patients are not properly informed of long term risks.
If you do actually read the manual, it does say only very severe cases are for tane consideration. Even then... it did however help some people.
I don't blame Roche, it's simply that derms need to be more honest with this, and long term problems more described. The incidence of sevre problems is obviously more than eg 1%. People need to be fully aware there is chance they may eg trade acne for long term impotence.
@mariovitaliFor me it seems you see intestinal changes time and time again before liver changes, meaning the intestinal tract might be impacted before any long term changes start to occur in the liver. The intestinal changes are more rapid and day to day. These changes seem to coincide with overall health.
Drug Metabolism by the Host and Gut Microbiota: A Partnership or Rivalry?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4576677/
The importance of the gut microbiome in determining not only overall health, but also in the metabolism of drugs and xenobiotics, is rapidly emerging. It is becoming increasingly clear that the gut microbiota can act in concert with the host cells to maintain intestinal homeostasis, cometabolize drugs and xenobiotics, and alter the expression levels of drug-metabolizing enzymes and transporters and the expression and activity levels of nuclear receptors. In this myriad of activities, the impact of the microbiota may be beneficial or detrimental to the host. Given that the interplay between the gut microbiota and host cells is likely subject to high interindividual variability, this work has tremendous implications for our ability to predict accurately a particular drugs pharmacokinetics and a given patient populations response to drugs. In this issue ofDrug Metabolism and Disposition, a series of articles is presented that illustrate the progress and challenges that lie ahead as we unravel the intricacies associated with drug and xenobiotic metabolism by the gut microbiota. These articles highlight the underlying mechanisms that are involved and the use of in vivo and in vitro approaches that are currently available for elucidating the role of the gut microbiota in drug and xenobiotic metabolism. These articles also shed light on exciting new avenues of research that may be pursued as we consider the role of the gut microbiota as an endocrine organ, a component of the brain-gut axis, and whether the gut microbiota is an appropriate and amenable target for new drugs.
Like the host enterocytes and hepatocytes, gut microorganisms actively participate in determining the bioavailability, efficacy, and side effects of orally administered drugs, xenobiotics, and dietary substances. As we continue to expand our understanding of how the gut microbiota contributes to the metabolism of drugs and xenobiotics, we must develop more advanced experimental approaches to define more completely its overall impact on patient response, the factors that contribute to interindividual differences, and the mechanisms that underlie the host-microbiome interplay. These advances will not only allow us to improve our ability to predict an individuals response to specific drugs and xenobiotics, but they will also provide new opportunities for exploiting the host-microbiome relationship to develop either more effective or safer therapies.
Here's a side note from the article because I see this mentioned alot on here.
Role of the Gut Microbiota in Bile Acid Metabolism
The gut microbiota plays an extensive role in bile acid metabolism and in this manner contributes to the health of the host via its impact on the absorption of lipids and lipid-soluble vitamins and maintenance of intestinal barrier function (Li and Jia, 2013;Swanson et al., 2013;Klaassen and Cui, 2015). Whereas the liver is the major source of primary bile acid synthesis, the intestinal bacteria are largely responsible for the production of secondary bile acids.
30 years on the market , but original accutane pulled from market due to patent expiry and MASSIVE law suits many with multi million dollar pay outs due to drug induced IBS.
Some of you guys should be suing I dont have stomach issues
but if I did I would sue for life long debilitating damages. Roche really does have a lot of blood on their hands. I say whoever master minded this CHEMO torture deserves a monument in HELL.
35 minutes ago, Gladiatoro said:30 years on the market , but original accutane pulled from market due to patent expiry and MASSIVE law suits many with multi million dollar pay outs due to drug induced IBS.
Some of you guys should be suing I dont have stomach issues
but if I did I would sue for life long debilitating damages. Roche really does have a lot of blood on their hands. I say whoever master minded this CHEMO torture deserves a monument in HELL.
I would not go this far... like many other drugs, it's a drug. If you have neuroblastoma, accutane may have saved you or prolonged life... as chemo/cancer treatment, it's also effective in some cases.
It does work for acne as well, and amazingly well as well for some people.
The issue is that patients need to be fully aware of long term side effects, and derms need to be honest it's not like 1% chance, but likely, more over time. For instance, a derm shoudl say things like killing of meibiomian gland etc. More emphasis shoudl be put on long term side effects as well.
The original manual now says, that this is only for most extreme cases, when acne is living hell, pain etc. This is not majority of cases. Some derms give this for even cosmetic cases nowadays.
3 minutes ago, fiksi said:I would not go this far... like many other drugs, it's a drug. If you have neuroblastoma, accutane may have saved you or prolonged life... as chemo/cancer treatment, it's also effective in some cases.It does work for acne as well, and amazingly well as well for some people.
The issue is that patients need to be fully aware of long term side effects, and derms need to be honest it's not like 1% chance, but likely, more over time. For instance, a derm shoudl say things like killing of meibiomian gland etc. More emphasis shoudl be put on long term side effects as well.
The original manual now says, that this is only for most extreme cases, when acne is living hell, pain etc. This is not majority of cases. Some derms give this for even cosmetic cases nowadays.
I have often said for mild acne its criminal to hand out it really is. These derms dont even deserve a job.
25 minutes ago, Gladiatoro said:Guys do not forget this , accutane is NOT a natural vitamin , YES it is a derivative of Vit A in high TOXIC doses and it is a form of retinic Acid , but get this in your heads , IT IS NOT A NATURAL VITAMIN.
Yes. Retinoic Acid is a natural metabolite of vitamin A, and accutane is a derivative of A itself. It is not retinoic acid, but belongs to group of retinoids.
It is somewhat similar to A in structure, but is not A.
People shoudl understand accutane affects cells on most basic levels, altering genetic expressions, apoptosis, divison and much more. It is taken by all in body, and thus very systemic. This makes it far more dangerous and unpredictable than any antibiotic etc.
This is why effects are so unpredictable and long term.
6 minutes ago, Gladiatoro said:11 minutes ago, fiksi said:I have often said for mild acne its criminal to hand out it really is. These derms dont even deserve a job.
I absolutely agree. Derms sometimes minimise consequences of this drug, or are not completely honest... some even say you will only have dry lips perhaps.
There are people living in pain from acne, and their lives are stuck, there are severe cases. But these cases are not majority. Even then, patient should have full information, and blood work should be far more thorough. Accutane should not be repeated in infinite loop.
Going to treatment of very severe cancers like neuroblastoma, there is nothing to consider as surviving with any side effects is better than dying from the cancer itself.
What's do you think about CORDYCEPS ?
As a chemo treatment there may or may not be a place for accutane.
For acne accutane should never be an option.
Research should be underway to find a safer alternative to accutane.
Roche, regulator and derms are all responsible and should be on criminal charges.
Has anyone spoken to the regulators?
I have and all they say is that it is risk v benefit.
So they decided that you can all take risks and they don't feel like they are obligated to let you know what all the risks are!
How is it right that they get to make these decisions?
How can it ever be right that derms play down the side effects and then refuse to listen when hundreds come forward
claiming these unacceptable side effects?
The majority of dermatologists are still saying that they believe accutane is safe to take.
This is an outrage.
Do you think that dermatologists will one day face criminal charges for the hell they have heaped on young people
justlike the those who committed war crimes?
War crimesare defined in the statute that established the InternationalCriminalCourt, which includes: Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, such as: Willful killing, or causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health. Torture or inhumane treatment.
We can only hope!
For anyone who is wondering why I am bringing up war crimes!
Dermatologists are the ones who are delivering the bullets - they are doing as they are told without regard or question.
http://www.healing-arts.org/children/autism-treatments.htm
I heard someone talking the other day about treating autism like symptoms.
I found this very interesting because I don't know a lot about kids born with autism but I do believe in kids that
have been poisoned by vaccinations and have symptoms similar to autism.
I believe accutane, gulf war syndrome and vaxxed kids all have a lot in common.
(gulf war syndrome a result of toxic vaccinations)
Multi organ dysfunction:
neurological
gastrological
immunological
As Dr Gordon explains - If a car has 4 flat tyres there is not point just fixing one tyre.
Some parents have recovered their kids ( maybe not 100%) but for the love off their kids they are ruthless and truly committed to
making their kids well - more so than if they were fighting for their own health I'm sure.
Can anyone claim here that they went on a strict protocol for 3 years?
On 12/27/2017 at 9:14 AM, mikez said:This is interesting ..did you try beta caroete or vitamin A (retinyl)? . ...back in 2010, I took retinyl capsules for 5-7 days. I was noticeably hornier and grew more hair, BUT got headaches, less sleep, and quite depressed. It took a few weeks to get out of that spiral. I've been too afraid to touch it since. Ill only eat natural beta carotene now and not even in capsules. but Ive never specifically tried to eat beta carotene veges everyday. Perhaps this could help. A few years ago I did get my serum A levels checked, which were well normal, but I know that isn't the whole issue.
18 hours ago, Mike San said:That is interesting with regards to Vitamin A, but most info related to patients experiencing symptoms of low vitamin A while on a courses of Tane.Im wondering how people fared trying A years after ceasing?
About 3 years after ceasing, (back in 2010,) I tried a retinyl supplement, but it caused a rapid worsening of mood, and headaches/ less sleep. Libido and hair growth improved though. It took 3 weeks to recover from the crash though, and have been scared to ever supplement retinoids since. Ill only ever get amounts now via diet (eggs, butter, milk etc, ).
Are you both the same Mike?
Too Similar.
I have no doubt that the Gut may be heavily involved. But we cannot underestimate the importance of having a Liver in good working order. For example, if N-Linked Gluycosylation has been affected, Gut Lining is affected as the body cannot produce it in significant amounts, This leads to Gut permeability and as a result toxin load through the Gut.
We need to block as many "holes" in the system as possible. Having a Fibroscan and assessing any damage is a very important step to all of this.
1 hour ago, mariovitali said:@guitarman01I have no doubt that the Gut may be heavily involved. But we cannot underestimate the importance of having a Liver in good working order. For example, if N-Linked Gluycosylation has been affected, Gut Lining is affected as the body cannot produce it in significant amounts, This leads to Gut permeability and as a result toxin load through the Gut.
We need to block as many "holes" in the system as possible. Having a Fibroscan and assessing any damage is a very important step to all of this.
Why arent Gastroenterologists offering up this info, why am I only hearing this on a forum??
Its not enough that I had an incompetent Dermatologist put me on tane but youd think a highly qualified Gastroenterologist would be able to provide sound solutions for improving liver function and gut health.
Basically it seems these days if they dont find anything sinister going on, thats where it ends....this in my opinion is not enough, a good follow up should be how to improve gut health and ensure optimal liver/gallbladder function.....for fuck sake, if they dont know how these parts of the body work, what sort of hope does anyone else have?
Can a real Doctor who knows their shit please stand up!!!!
14 hours ago, hatetane said:For acne accutane should never be an option
I disagree with this statement. I have been on a longer term, low dose regime of accutane. My dose has never been higher than 10mg and this has gone for nine months. It has cleared up my acne and my only side effect is chapped lips.
My dermatologist refuses to put his patients on higher doses. Recent studies have shown low doses are just as effective as big doses, with a lot less side effects to boot. This is the only thing that has ever worked for my acne.
I do agree that this drug should be restricted a lot further and closer supervision between prescribing derm and patient are needed.
I am really sorry to hear if Accutane was a bad experience for you. To say outright it should never be an option for severe acne sufferers is incorrect. All the best everyone.
1 hour ago, ScarRight said:I disagree with this statement. I have been on a longer term, low dose regime of accutane. My dose has never been higher than 10mg and this has gone for nine months. It has cleared up my acne and my only side effect is chapped lips.My dermatologist refuses to put his patients on higher doses. Recent studies have shown low doses are just as effective as big doses, with a lot less side effects to boot. This is the only thing that has ever worked for my acne.
I do agree that this drug should be restricted a lot further and closer supervision between prescribing derm and patient are needed.
I am really sorry to hear if Accutane was a bad experience for you. To say outright it should never be an option for severe acne sufferers is incorrect. All the best everyone.
1 hour ago, ScarRight said:I disagree with this statement. I have been on a longer term, low dose regime of accutane. My dose has never been higher than 10mg and this has gone for nine months. It has cleared up my acne and my only side effect is chapped lips.My dermatologist refuses to put his patients on higher doses. Recent studies have shown low doses are just as effective as big doses, with a lot less side effects to boot. This is the only thing that has ever worked for my acne.
I do agree that this drug should be restricted a lot further and closer supervision between prescribing derm and patient are needed.
I am really sorry to hear if Accutane was a bad experience for you. To say outright it should never be an option for severe acne sufferers is incorrect. All the best everyone.
Well it does seem that low dose is a safer option but there is one guy on this forum who took 10mg for 10 days and it completely ruined his sex life - still the same 5 years later.
For anyone in then 20's + who has explored every other option and has really painful painful persistent acne then maybe it might be an option.
Providing they are made aware of all the life time risks they are taking and that they are monitored by experienced care givers then so be it.
My point is really that they are not looking to market safer acne treatments. They may even have some back ups already but they have no interest
in making a safer alternative available because accutane is too lucrative for them.
Not sure if you are male of female but just out of interest what would your thoughts be on accutane if you were now impotent and or infertile?
How would you feel if one of you loved ones took accutane and experience pain and depression for the rest of their lives?
How would it make you feel to see someone you love feel suicidal and or take their own life?
These side effects are not rare and they are real. Is getting rid of acne worth all this?
For a small minority possibly but not for most people. Especially young ones who have no notion what risks they are taking and they are being egged on by unscrupulous care givers!
Note that accutane is already meant to be a last resort for only the most sever cases and that there should be many care/safety procedures in
place.
Unfortunately these measures are not being adhered to and derms are dishing out accutane as if it were candy.
That is why accutane needs to be banned!
http://www.glutathionediseasecure.com/male-infertility-and-glutathione.html
Any males had fertility tests?
5 hours ago, ScarRight said:I disagree with this statement. I have been on a longer term, low dose regime of accutane. My dose has never been higher than 10mg and this has gone for nine months. It has cleared up my acne and my only side effect is chapped lips.My dermatologist refuses to put his patients on higher doses. Recent studies have shown low doses are just as effective as big doses, with a lot less side effects to boot. This is the only thing that has ever worked for my acne.
I do agree that this drug should be restricted a lot further and closer supervision between prescribing derm and patient are needed.
I am really sorry to hear if Accutane was a bad experience for you. To say outright it should never be an option for severe acne sufferers is incorrect. All the best everyone.
The persistent side effects start when you stop taking the drug, not while you were on it. I took 10mg/day for 30 days, crashed after stopping the drug and now I'm still screwed 7.5 years later.
If you're unlucky enough to get hit with the life-wreaking sides after you stop then see if you still think it's fine to prescribe.
1 hour ago, tanedout said:The persistent side effects start when you stop taking the drug, not while you were on it. I took 10mg/day for 30 days, crashed after stopping the drug and now I'm still screwed 7.5 years later.If you're unlucky enough to get hit with the life-wreaking sides after you stop then see if you still think it's fine to prescribe.
I got hit with side effects while I was on it.....
