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@RandomInternetdude People like you give me hope! How old are you? I have thought about studying Medicine or Biochemistry but Im already 28 
Are you familiar with Bodo Melniks work? You find a lot of his stuff on Pubmed
More possible strong evidence for this. The keyword being Regulates.
An Endogenous Vitamin K-Dependent Mechanism Regulates Cell Proliferation in the Brain Subventricular Stem Cell Niche
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3601423/
Our study uncovers that the two VKDPs, Gas6 and protein S, are major regulators for cell proliferation and stemness within the SVZ neurogenic niche. Our data open up new perspectives for investigating further the role of vitamin K, VKDPs, and anticoagulants in NSC biology in health and disease.
Then you look at what Warfarin, a vitamin K antagonist is capable of,
Warfarin embryopathy, characterized by several central nervous system anomalies, is associated with warfarin exposure in the second or the third trimester in human [49].
Retinoids are capable of oxidizing NADPH, which could lead to,
This is everything they are looking at right now with k2 (mainly long chain menaquinones, because of their extra hepatic availability), there is alot of current research underway with all of this.
NADPH oxidases in cardiovascular health and disease. ... Increased oxidative stress plays an important role in the pathophysiology ofcardiovascular diseasessuch as hypertension, atherosclerosis, diabetes,cardiachypertrophy, heart failure, and ischemia-reperfusion.
Going into the study I just posted. This is a concern right here. Based on things i've come to realize, this could be true.
"vascular and cardiac remodeling."
Because of accutane or triggered by/made worse.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16771662
8 hours ago, guitarman01 said:More possible strong evidence for this. The keyword being Regulates.
An Endogenous Vitamin K-Dependent Mechanism Regulates Cell Proliferation in the Brain Subventricular Stem Cell Niche
Stem Cells. 2012 Apr; 30(4): 719731.Published online 2012 Jan 30.doi:10.1002/stem.1045https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3601423/
Our study uncovers that the two VKDPs, Gas6 and protein S, are major regulators for cell proliferation and stemness within the SVZ neurogenic niche. Our data open up new perspectives for investigating further the role of vitamin K, VKDPs, and anticoagulants in NSC biology in health and disease.Then you look at what Warfarin, a vitamin K antagonist is capable of,
Warfarin embryopathy, characterized by several central nervous system anomalies, is associated with warfarin exposure in the second or the third trimester in human [49].Retinoids are capable of oxidizing NADPH, which could lead to,
This is everything they are looking at right now with k2 (mainly long chain menaquinones, because of their extra hepatic availability), there is alot of current research underway with all of this.NADPH oxidases in cardiovascular health and disease. ... Increased oxidative stress plays an important role in the pathophysiology ofcardiovascular diseasessuch as hypertension, atherosclerosis, diabetes,cardiachypertrophy, heart failure, and ischemia-reperfusion.
I know you're big on the Vit K thing prob with good reason but I'm yet to feel anything with it.
What are your thoughts though on Thiamine?
http://synergyhw.blogspot.com/2015/06/thiamine-gut-health-immune-system-and.html
http://synergyhw.blogspot.com/2015/04/nadph-folate-cycle-and-adrenal-function.html
NADPH oxidase and thyroid function
An interesting aspect of the NADPH oxidase system is that it plays a major role in thyroid function. Thyroid hormone synthesis is dependent on NADPH in both the thyroid and the liver. In the thyroid, two separate NADPH oxidase systems are used to generate free radicals, particularly hydrogen peroxide(H2O2), that are used to build the thyroid hormones T4 and T3(5,6). In the liver, the less active T4 is converted in to T3 by an NADPH-dependent enzyme, 5'-deiodinase(7,8) that utilizes reduced glutathione to make this conversion. Again, the solution to problems like this are much more complex than just throwing thiamine at them. T4 and T3 help regulate the conversion of riboflavin to FAD(9,10,11) which participates in many of the thiamine dependent enzymes as a cofactor and both FAD and selenium are needed for the glutathione cycle to work properly.
NADPH providesthe reducing equivalents for biosynthetic reactions and theoxidation-reductioninvolved in protecting against the toxicity ofreactive oxygen species(ROS), allowing the regeneration ofglutathione(GSH).[3]NADPH is also used foranabolicpathways, such as lipid synthesis,cholesterol synthesis, andfatty acid chain elongation.
The NADPH system is also responsible for generating free radicals in immune cells. These radicals are used to destroy pathogens in a process termed therespiratory burst.[4]It is the source of reducing equivalents forcytochrome P450hydroxylationofaromatic compounds,steroids,alcohols, anddrugs.
Another important thing that the research i've been doing identifies is Albumin. I believe that we should all check for its levels.
10 minutes ago, mariovitali said:@tryingtohelp2014Thanks for the links regarding Thiamine. A lot of ME/CFS Sufferers feel better with it and there are several reasons for this.
this would be the test to confirm
Erythrocyte Transketolase: The Test of Choice for Assessing Thiamine Deficiency
http://www.hormonesmatter.com/thiamine-deficiency-testing-understanding-labs/
Please see below the latest network graph that was created :
Notice NAD as being central to the network but we also see several other Topics that may be relevant such as Tocotrienol (i am not suggesting that you should supplement with it) but also glycosykltransferases and Glycosylation in General.
Hopefully this may help in your Research.
See also the original post here :
@tryingtohelp2014
Maybe there is a vitamin that can reverse the damage if we take it in high dosages. I don't think we need to be deficient in that Vitamin for it to help us. We might not have a Thiamine deficiency but it could still help us in megadoses if it indeed changes the receptors in our favour. I think most people who consume a balanced diet dont have any nutritional deficiencies after many years of accutane. So I don't see a point in getting tested for Vitamin deficiencies.
EDIT: ok I see, we can have normal blood leverls but still be deficient in our cells.
In the case of Thiamine we can just take 1000mg for 1 or 2 months and see if we feel better as it is a water soluble vitamine and not dangerous.
1 hour ago, draci said:@tryingtohelp2014
Maybe there is a vitamin that can reverse the damage if we take it in high dosages. I don't think we need to be deficient in that Vitamin for it to help us. We might not have a Thiamine deficiency but it could still help us in megadoses if it indeed changes the receptors in our favour. I think most people who consume a balanced diet dont have any nutritional deficiencies after many years of accutane. So I don't see a point in getting tested for Vitamin deficiencies.EDIT: ok I see, we can have normal blood leverls but still be deficient in our cells.
In the case of Thiamine we can just take 1000mg for 1 or 2 months and see if we feel better as it is a water soluble vitamine and not dangerous.
anyone with longterm symptoms hassomething wrong somewhere in the chain.
if theresa conclusive test out there, why not use it? why guess?
@tryingtohelp2014 but there is still a possibility that a megadose of some vitamin might reverse the damage, without there being a deficiency, even on the cellular level.
12 hours ago, TrueJustice said:I know you're big on the Vit K thing prob with good reason but I'm yet to feel anything with it.What are your thoughts though on Thiamine?
I need to know the exact dosage of k2 mk7 you're consistently taking and if it's in a powder or softgel form. Also what other supplements and/or drugs are you currently taking?
On 2017-11-27 at 9:01 PM, draci said:@RandomInternetdude People like you give me hope! How old are you? I have thought about studying Medicine or Biochemistry but Im already 28Are you familiar with Bodo Melniks work? You find a lot of his stuff on Pubmed
Im 25 years old. I have people in my class that have passed 30 so you're not too late! No I haven't, sounds really interesting though! Gonna look in to that.
On 2017-11-27 at 8:39 PM, TrueJustice said:Yeah but what happens after the test?? What would they put you on for example?Anything different to what we™re experimenting with now?
Well I guess the most effective choice for reversing DNA damage would be stem cell therapy if you have the money.
This is what im looking at. I can continue to make a pretty convincing argument for this, so anyone looking at this, I want to show you how im looking at it.
Im looking at mk7 and mk7 only. I wouldn't even call this a deficiency. This is something innate that you are born with, that is passed on from birth.
Many drugs/supplements and diet are constantly interacting with bacteria to possibly modify this innate menaquinone production.
This is whats on the market. You need to be looking at synthetics, that are NOT FERMENTED, not from SOY not from CHICKPEAS.
Just because bacteria produce menaquinones doesn't mean you necessarily want that bacteria coming along for the ride. Especially for people that are already sick.
I can explain it real simply like this. Bacteria was the first form of life. Religious beliefs aside, something got away from the bacteria they could no longer control that sparked evolution.
This is a example of a fermented version of mk7.
The chickpea product:
[Edited image out]
All of those extra spikes are contaminants. You dont want this.
DOSAGE BASED ON CURRENT RESEARCH
180mcg per day for bone health or 360 per day for vascular health. These are based on dose finding studies.
Id definitely be leaning towards the latter in our case.
And quit taking all of your other supplements if you are going to seriously look at this.
What are your market options? Theres two. Technically three. K2vital from kappa bioscience and pharmapure from nattopharma. Kappa also sold their product to Dupont for global distribution.
@mariovitalimaybe you should look at this again. I think what you were taking wasnt very potent at all mixed with calcium, this degrades k2. Your high dose magnesium or epsom salt also antagonises this.
The final options to look at are powder vs softgel for bioavailability and absorption.
9 hours ago, guitarman01 said:I need to know the exact dosage of k2 mk7 you're consistently taking and if it's in a powder or softgel form. Also what other supplements and/or drugs are you currently taking?
Essential Nutrition brand
soft gel capsules 180mcg, advised to take one per day.
Im hit n miss after gaining nothing from taking them. I still experiment with multi vitamins and Im on Pariot for life at this stage for the reflux I have.
Could be that Vit K is better taken with Thiamine, could be that you need to take while standing on your head whilst counting to 100......who the fuck would know what the best combination is for getting out of this god forsaken shit fight.....
Im just going to start tagging you @mariovitalibecause you're pretty active in research and so some of this doesn't get missed. I know this is heavily thought of as a implicating factor in CFS.
Dynamic balancing of autonomic nervous system through vitamin mk-7
https://www.google.com/patents/WO2012059942A3?cl=en&dq=inassignee :"Viridis+Biopharma+Pvt+Ltd."&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiW1o3ZjeXXAhWwYd8KHWuNBpkQ6AEIKDAA
ABSTRACT
A lot of things mentioned above there I suffer from. I was about to say, what shits me but Im sick of being angry, lets just say what bothers me is that my GP for cholesterol just says its lifestyle, do more exercise, eat less processed meat etc - no mention that I could have a Vit K deficiency.
I go to a vein specialist about my varicose veins, he says no one knows why people get varicose veins, no mention of Vit K issues and/or calcium issues that we can look into....
I go to gastroenterologist for reflux issues, no youve just got reflux you were born prone to it, see you later I cant look into anything else for you - take Pariot for rest of your life!!
Why are we getting more info from people on a forum than these well payed so called specialist that should be at the top of their game given the amount of money theyre on?.....why???
So, I've taken Vitamin K a few times since mentioned on here. Some things worth mentioning to someone before they go out and buy it. Vitamin K deficiencies are rare, they aren't in standard blood tests, a doctor usually orders a K test if he sees symptoms of bruising or excessive bleeding, it means your blood is not clotting properly. Vitamin E obviously does the opposite, and makes your blood thinner. There is a lot of vitamin K in green fruits and vegetables especially (K)ale and (K)iwi. So, while these medical studies look great and its the new fountain of youth, unless you have a deficiency or eat a poor diet that doesn't include greens, I'd be weary of taking a clotting supplement every day. Just some practical thoughts. I'll try it for a week or so, but I'm gonna have to see some improvements before I take it regularly.
hey there, still kicking around here guys. Got a question about sleep medication. I've been taking seroquel (50mg) for a while, don't want to give this one up. Recently saw a sleep specialist, he gave me gabapentin (100mg) and said to take with the seroquel. What do you guys think, should I be taking these? I don't know if I have it in me to go sifting through this and pfs/cfs forums for information about this that is probably loosely based information anyway, so if anyone has knowledge about our condition and these medications I would be much obliged.
@macleod
I've noticed some of guitarman's recent post about vitamin K arn't centering on deficiency of it, but some other complication that supplementation of k2 mk7 can help correct.
3 hours ago, macleod said:So, I've taken Vitamin K a few times since mentioned on here. Some things worth mentioning to someone before they go out and buy it. Vitamin K deficiencies are rare, they aren't in standard blood tests, a doctor usually orders a K test if he sees symptoms of bruising or excessive bleeding, it means your blood is not clotting properly. Vitamin E obviously does the opposite, and makes your blood thinner. There is a lot of vitamin K in green fruits and vegetables especially (K)ale and (K)iwi. So, while these medical studies look great and its the new fountain of youth, unless you have a deficiency or eat a poor diet that doesn't include greens, I'd be weary of taking a clotting supplement every day. Just some practical thoughts. I'll try it for a week or so, but I'm gonna have to see some improvements before I take it regularly.
2 of my recent blood samples arrivedhaemolyzed (too thick, basically blood had congealed) recently. Since then I've stopped supplementing vitamin K. I've had another sample taken today, so I'll see if that's ok.
@ToggYou could try melatonin, magnesium or ashwaghanda for sleep. Pretty sure melatonin helps a bit for me, but as you've probably seen from trawling the PFS forums, one thing works for someone and not for others so the only thing to do is try for yourself. Sleep issues could be high cortisol which is common. Ashwanghanda lowers it when taken for a time. For me at 7.5 years post tane I never had sleep issues until a year ago. Now I never sleep more than 4 hours straight without waking, although usually I'm not tired the next day weirdly.
Looking at what directly affects K2 processes, meaning bone and cardiovascular health and everything they are looking at with these current studies.
Dietary k1 has no effect.
dietary k2 mk4 (short chain menaquinones) has no effect.
dietary k2 mk7 has effect (long chain menaquinones)
The fact that it has effect in amounts under 50 mcg is pretty remarkable. If this wasa drug it would be considered highly potent.
A healthy diet in general in a normal population can affect fecal menaquinone content through gut bacteria modulation.
There is no current approved testing for vitamin k2 status. This would be looking at undercarboxylated osteocalcin (for bone health) and undercarboxylated matrix gla proteins (for cardiovascular k2 status)
Vitamin k2 should not be capable of causing a hypercoagulable state in every study looked at so far. It does not thicken the blood. (in fact ive noticed a blood thinning effect at times) It increases coagulation and anticoagulation factors simultaneously to maintain a balance.
Here is a safety study of synthetic k2 mk7 at extremely high doses.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3172146/
@tanedout hemolyzed blood has nothing to do with coagulation.
If we are going to take a minute to post something that might sway peoples opinions, lets please take another minute to make sure its accurate.
Looking too far down the chain. too far out on the branches of symptoms. i.e. putting eye drops in for dry eye symptoms isntgoing to help you solve the realproblem,
Vitamin K2 has nothing to do with theactivation of CYP26 or any other CYP enzyme needed specifically for all trans retinoic acid detoxification.its not a co-factor.
However Thiamine is a co-factor to produce K2 (menaquinones ) so anything related to a K2 deficiency could be just the missing cofactor.
Thiamine is a cofactor for NADPH which is needed for CYP26A
Biosynthesis of menaquinone (vitamin K2) and ubiquinone (coenzyme Q): A perspective on enzymatic mechanisms
The benzoquinone ubiquinone (coenzyme Q) and the naphthoquinones menaquinone (vitamin K2) and demethylmenaquinone are derived from the shikimate pathway, which has been described as a metabolic tree with many branches. Menaquinone (MK) is considered a vitamin, but coenzyme (Q) is not; MK is an essential nutrient (it cannot be synthesized by mammals), whereas Q is not considered an essential nutrient since it can be synthesized from the amino acid tyrosine.
The quinone nucleus of Q is derived directly from chorismate, whereas that of MK is derived from chorismate via isochorismate. The prenyl side chain of both quinones is derived from prenyl diphosphate, and the methyl groups are derived fromS-adenosylmethionine. MK biosynthesis requires 2-ketoglutarate and the co-factors ATP, coenzyme A (CoASH), and thiamine pyrophosphate.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0083672901610069
look at this product...not a fluke they put B1 in the formula.
https://www.kappabio.com/experience-k2/the-kardio-health-triangle/
does accutanecause depression by depleting Thiamine/causing a transporter problem in the cells?
http://www.robertbarrington.net/thiamine-antidepressant/
i've looked into Vitamin K some more and am more comfortable implementing it into a daily or every other day supplement. But, again, out of the hours of videos I watched and studies I read, they compare people with western diets who lack in vitamin K and the dieseases it brings as you get older to the more rural indigenous people that consume a plant based whole food diet. So, its a good supplement to have, if your diet is poor or your digestion is not functioning properly (light colored stools) which I think is good reason for implementation.
I'm thinking an every other day cycle, Vitamins A, D, K one day. Vitamins B, C, etc. the other. And only moderate amounts. the lowest IU or mcg you can get because supplement companies like NOW tend to add too much. Swanson is a good conservative company.
