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13 hours ago, draci said:Is the dose of Vit K that we get from food not enough? I saw that there is a lot in meat and eggs.
First looking at vitamin k2 exclusively. im not considering k1 because the two have different functions. there is a conversion factor for different forms of k1 to k2 and long chain k2 like mk7 to short chain mk4. This is still somewhat murky whats going on here.
There is a recent study where they stated dietary mk4 does not appear to contribute to mk4 serum levels.
mk7 (long chain) is pretty much non existent in food. Unless your eating natto.
It has been shown that all vitamin K homologues can be converted to MK-4in vivo
https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-11-93
Conclusions
We conclude that MK-4 present in food does not contribute to the vitamin K status as measured by serum vitamin K levels. MK-7, however significantly increases serum MK-7 levels and therefore may be of particular importance for extrahepatic tissues.
MK-7 significantly increased MK-4 in extrahepatic tissues. Thus, MK-7 is a better supplier for MK-4in vivothan MK-4 itself.
bottom line. Im looking at environmental factors significantly altering long chain menaquinone production.
multiple strains of bacteria( gut and otherwise) are capable of producing long chain menaquinones.
27 minutes ago, guitarman01 said:First looking at vitamin k2 exclusively. im not considering k1 because the two have different functions. there is a conversion factor for different forms of k1 to k2 and long chain k2 like mk7 to short chain mk4. This is still somewhat murky whats going on here.
There is a recent study where they stated dietary mk4 does not appear to contribute to mk4 serum levels.
mk7 (long chain) is pretty much non existent in food. Unless your eating natto.It has been shown that all vitamin K homologues can be converted to MK-4in vivo
https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-11-93
Conclusions
We conclude that MK-4 present in food does not contribute to the vitamin K status as measured by serum vitamin K levels. MK-7, however significantly increases serum MK-7 levels and therefore may be of particular importance for extrahepatic tissues.
MK-7 significantly increased MK-4 in extrahepatic tissues. Thus, MK-7 is a better supplier for MK-4in vivothan MK-4 itself.
bottom line. Im looking at environmental factors significantly altering long chain menaquinone production.
multiple strains of bacteria( gut and otherwise) are capable of producing long chain menaquinones.
Did you ever take anti life biotic then your problem stems from that . Its a particularly nasty way to destroy your gut and immune system.
On 10/22/2017 at 10:35 PM, Jorcruz24 said:For instance, this article states that the blood work exams they made us do during our treatment courses are useless and don't show how the drug is actually effecting the body. Makes sense since I felt like shit a lot of times on the drug but all the tests always and still come back "normal" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28537864/?i=69&from=accutane
Just went back and looked at all of this. Some good information here. Heres the headline. Im going to get this creatine kinase blood test to look into any muscle inflammation/weakness possibly going on.
I had a chance to get a muscle biopsy awhile back. Should have maybe done it.
Yes, also the problem is doctors arent looking into this from a drug induced perspective, so we are not getting or denied some of the more advanced tests that could discover something.
When you tie this to dr affiliation with drug companies, this is probably something alot of doctors dont want to get involved in. anything remotely close to whistleblowing could be a career killer.
Laboratory tests in patients treated with isotretinoin: occurrence of liver and muscle abnormalities and failure of AST and ALT to predict liver abnormality.
39 minutes ago, guitarman01 said:Just went back and looked at all of this. Some good information here. Heres the headline. Im going to get this creatine kinase blood test to look into any muscle inflammation/weakness possibly going on.
I had a chance to get a muscle biopsy awhile back. Should have maybe done it.Yes, also the problem is doctors arent looking into this from a drug induced perspective, so we are not getting or denied some of the more advanced tests that could discover something.
When you tie this to dr affiliation with drug companies, this is probably something alot of doctors dont want to get involved in. anything remotely close to whistleblowing could be a career killer.Laboratory tests in patients treated with isotretinoin: occurrence of liver and muscle abnormalities and failure of AST and ALT to predict liver abnormality.
It goes back to the argument that both the pharmaceutical companies and dermatologist find themselves in now: either they were lying then or they are lying now. Obviously Roche won't ever admit to the drug ever being unsafe because that would entail that they lied from the beginning and they are a multi billion dollar corporation with a lot to lose. Dermatologist won't admit that the drug is unsafe because they've already told millions that this drug is safe so they find research that this drug is safe and ignore all those who come back saying this drug has changed them. To back track and admit it is a lie after all these years is the end of Roche and a huge blow to the credibility of the dermatologist. So these cowards continue to hide behind this falsehood, meanwhile people are still being prescribed this drug and it's ruining their lives.
I see this firsthand with my dermatologist. I went back to her office and called her out on it. I told her what this drug has caused me and how is it that dermatologist could prescribe such a dangerous drug. Almost robotically, she cited old articles from the 90s explaining the safety of the drug and how no correlation has been found between the drug and any symptoms they present . She even told me how is it possible that a drug could still cause damage if I was no longer taking it.
Well, I'm living proof that the drug does in fact cause damage and somehow the changes don't seem to appear until months or years later. I wish it weren't true, and I wish more than anyone that what she said was true.
Doctors are not gods, although they sometimes think themselves as such, and prescribe drugs that are altering the very biology of a person to an extent that they can't even comprehend.
Just imagine 100 years ago and the medical practices of then ( blood draining to cure patients of diseases; disease now known to be real dismissed as hysteria). How stupid they were. Now imagine 100 years from now and how they'll look back at what doctors are prescribing today and think of how stupid and naive they were.
And to respond to the guy who said he takes full responsibility for the outcome of what Accutane caused him. How can you believe such a thing? When even after you try to explain to them what this drug has caused you they say it's unrelated. They absolutely sold this as a "safe" drug and completely brushed off on the potential side effects almost as if they were all made up or didn't exist. We were all sold this lie and at such a young and vulnerable age. It's nothing less than a crime on their part and you better believe these bastards are going to pay one day for what they did.
1 hour ago, Jorcruz24 said:It goes back to the argument that both the pharmaceutical companies and dermatologist find themselves in now: either they were lying then or they are lying now. Obviously Roche won't ever admit to the drug ever being unsafe because that would entail that they lied from the beginning and they are a multi billion dollar corporation with a lot to lose. Dermatologist won't admit that the drug is unsafe because they've already told millions that this drug is safe so they find research that this drug is safe and ignore all those who come back saying this drug has changed them. To back track and admit it is a lie after all these years is the end of Roche and a huge blow to the credibility of the dermatologist. So these cowards continue to hide behind this falsehood, meanwhile people are still being prescribed this drug and it's ruining their lives.I see this firsthand with my dermatologist. I went back to her office and called her out on it. I told her what this drug has caused me and how is it that dermatologist could prescribe such a dangerous drug. Almost robotically, she cited old articles from the 90s explaining the safety of the drug and how no correlation has been found between the drug and any symptoms they present . She even told me how is it possible that a drug could still cause damage if I was no longer taking it.
Well, I'm living proof that the drug does in fact cause damage and somehow the changes don't seem to appear until months or years later. I wish it weren't true, and I wish more than anyone that what she said was true.
Doctors are not gods, although they sometimes think themselves as such, and prescribe drugs that are altering the very biology of a person to an extent that they can't even comprehend.
Just imagine 100 years ago and the medical practices of then ( blood draining to cure patients of diseases; disease now known to be real dismissed as hysteria). How stupid they were. Now imagine 100 years from now and how they'll look back at what doctors are prescribing today and think of how stupid and naive they were.
And to respond to the guy who said he takes full responsibility for the outcome of what Accutane caused him. How can you believe such a thing? When even after you try to explain to them what this drug has caused you they say it's unrelated. They absolutely sold this as a "safe" drug and completely brushed off on the potential side effects almost as if they were all made up or didn't exist. We were all sold this lie and at such a young and vulnerable age. It's nothing less than a crime on their part and you better believe these bastards are going to pay one day for what they did.
Going to pay when?
50 years from now?
When all of this won't matter anymore? When my life is close to an end?
Go stand outside Roche and hold a sign. They'll bat their eyes and turn the other way. No one forced this drug down your throat. And if Roche finally takes it off the market, what good will that be to you?
Call me selfish but I could care less about preventing people from taking the drug. Your own health should come first. Keep testing, that's all we can do. Many people have found answers through testing. It's not like a one size fits all with all of us.
Short update:
Still feeling very good. My testosterone is high so I can have sex with no problems but what is even better is that I really want to have sex. When I wake up in the morning my dick is errect till I get to the toilette just like it was before. My mind is clear and my depression is gone. What I have to say is that the effect is not that strong like it was first when I came off but it wasn't even normal. Now I feel totally normal and I don't even care about 7 years wasted in my life if it just will stay the way it is. The only problem I got is with my stomach but I'm not really sure if that is accutane-related. So I hope you guys will find a way to come out of this because its worth it. Keep fightin.
4 hours ago, idontknow1993 said:Short update:
Still feeling very good. My testosterone is high so I can have sex with no problems but what is even better is that I really want to have sex. When I wake up in the morning my dick is errect till I get to the toilette just like it was before. My mind is clear and my depression is gone. What I have to say is that the effect is not that strong like it was first when I came off but it wasn't even normal. Now I feel totally normal and I don't even care about 7 years wasted in my life if it just will stay the way it is. The only problem I got is with my stomach but I'm not really sure if that is accutane-related. So I hope you guys will find a way to come out of this because its worth it. Keep fightin.
Congratulations! Really great to hear this! Did you ever hear anything back from Dr Pezzi?
Whale.to ....antibiotics. Check it out or as I like to call them anti-life-biotic.
If you want to destroy your immune system then go for it. I havent taken a prescription drug or over the counter drug in roughly 25 years , isotretinoin has taught me a valuable lesson at the dangers of allopathic medicine.
In the near future they will consider chemotherapy an act of crime mark my words. As I have often said anything 200 years or newer in medicine is detrimental to the human body.
9 hours ago, Colinboko said:Going to pay when?50 years from now?
When all of this won't matter anymore? When my life is close to an end?
Go stand outside Roche and hold a sign. They'll bat their eyes and turn the other way. No one forced this drug down your throat. And if Roche finally takes it off the market, what good will that be to you?
Call me selfish but I could care less about preventing people from taking the drug. Your own health should come first. Keep testing, that's all we can do. Many people have found answers through testing. It's not like a one size fits all with all of us.
It is selfish. Imagine if those who were damaged from this drug from the beginning spoke out against it or those who got a lawyer and sued Roche decided that instead of receiving a pay out and going on with their miserable existence chose to fight instead for a ban on this drug, half of us wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.
We have the internet now and forums like this that can help us connect and mobilize. Instead we still lurk in the shadows and continue to hate ourselves for a decision that will effect the rest of our lives, when in fact Roche, the dermatologist and the government are largely to blame for allowing this to happen.
Does it make sense to continue to pretend to be scientist and spew scientific misinformation to each other that we obviously don't understand and that leads us nowhere ? I studied comparitive literatures; I don't have the background to understand what went wrong or how to cure myself.
But if we finally hold these bastards accountable for what they did, we finally add credibility to our case and maybe then scientists and doctors will finally take the time to study what happened to our bodies and maybe find a way to help.
I dont know about you, but I'm getting really tired of waking up every morning to such debilitating pain and continuously being brushed off by all different doctors as being depressed or paranoid.
In in the next couple of years I'm sure doctors will continue to diagnose me with different autoimmune diseases or just new labels for symptoms that they can't explain, but I know for a fact that this all started from Accutane.
10 minutes ago, Jorcruz24 said:It is selfish. Imagine if those who were damaged from this drug from the beginning spoke out against it or those who got a lawyer and sued Roche decided that instead of receiving a pay out and going on with their miserable existence chose to fight instead for a ban on this drug, half of us wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.We have the internet now and forums like this that can help us connect and mobilize. Instead we still lurk in the shadows and continue to hate ourselves for a decision that will effect the rest of our lives, when in fact Roche, the dermatologist and the government are largely to blame for allowing this to happen.
Does it make sense to continue to pretend to be scientist and spew scientific misinformation to each other that we obviously don't understand and that leads us nowhere ? I studied comparitive literatures; I don't have the background to understand what went wrong or how to cure myself.
But it if we finally hold these bastards accountable for what they did, we finally add credibility to our case and maybe then scientists and doctors will finally take the time to study what happened to our bodies and maybe find a way to help.
I think the research done by everyone on this page is pretty damn awesome to say the least. We've found out a shit ton for not being doctors.
Roche will never accept what they've done because you signed a piece of paper saying that if you committed suicide then it wouldn't be their fault.
Own up to it. We all wanted our acne cleared. If someone told me there was a chance of this happening, I most definitely still would have risked it. I blame the doctors for keeping that information out but I've had friends that have taken it with absolutely no problems... of course I would have given it a try
59 minutes ago, Jorcruz24 said:It is selfish. Imagine if those who were damaged from this drug from the beginning spoke out against it or those who got a lawyer and sued Roche decided that instead of receiving a pay out and going on with their miserable existence chose to fight instead for a ban on this drug, half of us wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.We have the internet now and forums like this that can help us connect and mobilize. Instead we still lurk in the shadows and continue to hate ourselves for a decision that will effect the rest of our lives, when in fact Roche, the dermatologist and the government are largely to blame for allowing this to happen.
Does it make sense to continue to pretend to be scientist and spew scientific misinformation to each other that we obviously don't understand and that leads us nowhere ? I studied comparitive literatures; I don't have the background to understand what went wrong or how to cure myself.
But if we finally hold these bastards accountable for what they did, we finally add credibility to our case and maybe then scientists and doctors will finally take the time to study what happened to our bodies and maybe find a way to help.
I dont know about you, but I'm getting really tired of waking up every morning to such debilitating pain and continuously being brushed off by all different doctors as being depressed or paranoid.
In in the next couple of years I'm sure doctors will continue to diagnose me with different autoimmune diseases or just new labels for symptoms that they can't explain, but I know for a fact that this all started from Accutane.
It's criminal how big pharmaceutical companies have become so powerful they're almost a law unto themselves. Look at the opioid epidemic in the states - tens of thousands have died and vast numbers are hooked on drugs like fentanyl which is like prescription heroin, yet big pharma are denying any responsibility - yet raking in millions upon millions from all these people who are addicted. It's almost like they've moved in and taken over a big chunk of the illegal drugs market, legally!
Anyway this thread is fragmented enough without it turning into just a rant at big pharma, it's supposed to be about sharing knowledge and idea's.
Recent tests
- Did a private test for progesterone last week via an online clinic, but unfortunately my sample arrived 'haemolysed' (think this means the blood has congealed). The method of blood collection for this was not nice - you have to use some tool to puncture the end of your finger, and milk out quite a lot of blood. Not in a hurry to repeat that so just called my doctors to push (again) for a progesterone test and hopefully having one Friday.
- Cortisol back from last weeks test - 711 (150 - 600 range) - this is highest its ever been, but is usually borderline high, or high. Ill be referred to an endo for this. Other tests done at the same time have to be repeated due to bad samples which is odd and makes me wonder if these were also 'haemolysed'.
- Had a liver/GB functionality test done recently (injected with radioactive dye, fatty drink,scanner etc) and this has obviously come back showing something unusualas Ive been asked to book follow ups to discuss, but these arent for 4 weeks.
- Just received a hair mineral analysis kit so Ill do this shortly and send off the sample.
Anyone had any tests done for progesterone, cortisol, DHT, potassium, hair mineral analysis?
Think hair mineral analysis is likely more useful than I first thought based on what I'm reading on PFS, PSSD forums. I remember a few people had these done showing high copper (PFS guys tend to get very high copper too). These tests are cheap and easy, who else has done one?
42 minutes ago, Kokodu said:Test done 2 months ago:
- progesterone 0,25 ng/ml
- cortisol 10,32 g/dl
- DHT 499 pg/ml
Do you know the reference ranges?
Edit: Looks like they're all fine having looked for ranges - I guess prog low-normal, cortisol low-normal (assuming it's a morning sample), DHT slightly-low-normal.
So something I've been curious about.
My beard and chest hair are the only hairs that aren't shedding or have "stayed the same" if you will. Aren't both of these caused by genetic sensitivity to androgens? So if I can still grow them fine.. it's not a sensitivity issue?
The only hairs that shed are arm, leg, pubic and armpit hair. But they're not "shedding" to the point of having no hair left, but if I lightly tug I can pull out like 3-4 hairs sometimes. It's just weird that the hair that is affected is the lighter fluffier arm hair type texture versus my dark and coarse beard and chest hair that aren't falling out.
Is this an estrogen problem? Because I know the reason males grow pubic, arm and leg hair is due to estrogen? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just sooo confused as to why my chest and beard hair is completely normal.
Keep in mind my arm has also grown that light fluffy hair in excess whic resembles some sort of hirsutism but like a male version? It's so strange.
On 10/25/2017 at 12:51 AM, tanedout said:Anyone had any tests done for progesterone, cortisol, DHT, potassium, hair mineral analysis?
Wheres your testosterone been at when you've had it tested? including reference range.
Low T seemed to be most in common across the board when looking at post fin hormone results from
[Edited link out]
Whats going on with your liver/gallbladder? you didnt ask?
Was this a ct scan? What was the name of this test?
You already had a liver ultrasound and that was normal correct?
Id think that would be even more accurate than a ct scan if thats what you had, when looking at something like fatty liver for example.
On 10/25/2017 at 2:43 AM, guitarman01 said:Wheres your testosterone been at when you've had it tested? including reference range.
Low T seemed to be most in common across the board when looking at post fin hormone results from[Edited link out]
Whats going on with your liver/gallbladder? you didnt ask?
Was this a ct scan? What was the name of this test?
My T is always at the low end of the range, but DHT is at the very top of the range. Low T seems to be one of the few consistent things in this, but people who work towards raising it don't lose their sides. On the theory that tane is a 'progestin' my bloods seem to fit the profile of down regulated progesterone receptors which would be high cortisol, high DHT, low potassium (have all those), with low e and high progesterone (don't know about those yet)
The test is a hepatobiliary scan. I get constant upper right quadrant discomfort, right shoulder pain and have had issues with eating fat intermittently (was getting extremely ill after eating a fatty meal for a period). I think it's a PET scanner that's used, similar procedure to having a CT scan though. Looking at what results can show from this however, I'm really not sure it's that useful although obviously I'm interested to discuss the findings and any recommendations with the consultant. Liver enzymes and ultrasounds come back fine.
One new supplement I've got, but yet to start on is 'desecrated liver' - read some people with liver issues having good overall results from this, and I remember some people on here recovered their night vision from eating liver regularly? I find the taste and texture disgusting, but that won't be an issue with the caps!
So quick update on erectile health
so I'm not sure what it is
but I start my day off with
a green drink and add cinnamon and protein powder and ginger
then I take two magnesium glycinate and a b complex pure brand
within 20-30 mins I get a random erection and horny
Now it's not solid solid for a 28 year old with high t levels
but it's semi
I also have severe adrenal fatigue and over masturbate so I have to stop those
Sorry for my random posts but always worth reading about a recovery right! - might just be a single thing that catches your eye.
Here is a pretty quick way to look at thousands of recent studies on any keyword.
https://www.readbyqxmd.com/
2 hours ago, hatetane said:Sorry for my random posts but always worth reading about a recovery right! - might just be a single thing that catches your eye.
Very interesting post!
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-estrogen-hormone-therapy
literally all my symptoms are explained here......
hmmmm