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On 1/23/2014 at 9:31 PM, Dubya_B said:
@colinboko
Yes I know, maybe I didn't want to answer....
19 minutes ago, hatetane said:@colinboko
Yes I know, maybe I didn't want to answer....
Ummm.. ok
6 hours ago, mikez said:Anyone ever consider TMS or ECT for depression sides?
ECT, no. I've heard too many stories/research of people incurring cognitive problems from that. And I feel like all of my mental problems stem from some sort of cognitive dysfunction in the first place. I don't feel sad or down; I simply cannot experience emotions or pleasure in a fluid way. Everything I feel is sporadic, short-lived.
TMS, absolutely. The price tag is insane, but I can always fantasize. This story gives me hope. Granted, I can still recognize emotions and social cues. Certainly, though, if I developed (from birth) with this Accutane-induced cognitive dysfunction, I doubt I would have ever established any emotional intelligence at all.
Also, look into Deep Brain Stimulation.
The past 2 weeks have been incredibly difficult. The only medication that helps with my emotions has now given me unacceptable side effects. One thing that I finds help is to go on long walk at night (low stimulation). I suspect my stress-control mechanisms are hampered. I cannot even handle socializing with my family for too long. I seem to require isolation to feel clarity.
9 hours ago, mikez said:Anyone ever consider TMS or ECT for depression sides?
I've seen ECT used as a last course resort in some studies where there is neurological and psychological damage. So they treat the cause, if treatable, and in some cases the neurological damage resolved , but the psychological (ie emotion less) didnt. So then they went ahead with shock therapy and it seemed to work, but it might have been more for psychotic symptoms. i'm sure they would want to try every last resort before any doctor would consider ECT or TMS.
Maybe you would need something as sophisticated as a PET scan to show cause for this. IDK
basically their using this to wake up dead or sleeping parts of your brain. low activity.
24 minutes ago, guitarman01 said:16 hours ago, Colinboko said:For those who have had hair loss, did it ever stop? If so, when?
I have it body wide. Sparse on my ankles which is kinda weird...
Same thing happened to me after accutane. Diffuse hair loss body wide.
Did it ever stop ? And did you ever get thyroid / adrenal tests done?
Component Results
| Component | Your Value | Standard Range |
|---|---|---|
| TSH | 1.280uIU/mL | 0.500 - 5.500 uIU/mL |
General Information
09/11/2016 1:33 PM
Resulted:
09/11/2016 10:07 PM
less shedding because of less hair to shed. It had a initial thinning out. then slowed down.
this forum f'ing up? wont let me quote people.
On 3/26/2017 at 5:41 PM, TrueJustice said:On numerous tests my Zinc levels are fine, Copper was an abnormality on a couple of them.If we can work out the relationship between Zinc/Copper/Vit A we might be on to something.
We still don't know if the Liver after tane has been altered in some way with how it processes Vit A etc, meaning we can supplement all we want but if the liver can't process correctly that's the problem ahead of everything else.
zinc serum and also copper serum are unreliable biomarkers of mineral levels in soft tissue. to put it in perspective there is 2 to 5 grams of total zinc in the body, compared to 50 to 80 milligrams of copper. Im still wondering if seeing my zinc numbers jump around so drastically means anything. for instance ive had as high as 100 ug/dl (healthy adequate amount) and as low as 58 ug/dl (low zinc)
to put it in perspective, burn victims that are drastically depleted of zinc register in the 40s ug/dl
healthy zinc levels(not too much) are capable of raising ceruloplasmin, in turn raising serum copper, and safely binding/lowering free copper.
People having a initial reaction to zinc that lessens over time, there could be something else going on here.
Diffuse alopecia in a child due to dietary zinc deficiency.
Abstract
A 4-year-old girl was evaluated for hair loss of a few weeks' duration. History of the present illness, medical history, and review of systems were obtained from the parents, who described progressive diffuse hair loss with hair dryness and brittleness, with no change in the child's eating habits or any other unusual symptoms. No fever, weight loss, diarrhea, vomiting, abdominal pain, chronic cough, dyspnea, change in appetite, change in bowel habit, or urinary symptoms were noted. On further questioning, her nutritional history revealed that she always favored cow's milk in her diet. The patient has been healthy with no significant medical history, surgical history, psychiatric history, or history of hospitalization. She was taking no medications. Her mother's pregnancy and the child's birth history were uneventful. The child was up-to-date on her vaccinations. Her physical examination showed a healthy-appearing child who was at 50% on the height chart and 70% on the weight growth chart. She was afebrile with a respiratory rate of 24 breaths per minute, pulse rate of 110 beats per minute, and pulse oximetry of 99% on room air. Skin examination revealed interstitial diffuse patchy alopecia with very dry hair and nonscarred, normal-appearing scalp. The hair pull test was normal, with 4 hairs extracted. Results of examination of her eyes (including visual acuity) and lungs were normal, and no abnormalities were found on heart, abdominal, musculoskeletal, and neurologic examinations. Laboratory workup showed normal electrolytes, blood urea nitrogen, creatinine, and blood sugar levels. Her complete blood cell count with differential was normal, ferritin concentration level was 110 ng/mL (reference, 40-200 ng/mL), iron level was 75 microg/dL (reference, 35-175 microg/dL), and total iron-binding capacity was 310 microg/dL (reference, 245-400 microg/dL). Levels of liver enzymes, total bilirubin, serum protein, and albumin were normal, as were the results of urinalysis. Thyroid function test results were normal and levels of vitamins A and D were also normal. Low levels of serum zinc were measured repeatedly at 48 and 61 microg/dL (reference, 66-144 microg/dL) at 2 different laboratories. She was started on zinc supplement (50 mg daily) for 6 months and her diet was modified. The hair loss stopped in 3 weeks. Follow-up in 4 months showed no evidence of alopecia, with normal-looking hair.
I appreciate the science and the story on that 4 year old girl is good BUT we've all supplemented with Zinc before haven't we??
Im just not big on blood tests anymore - yes they fluctuate, until we work out why the liver has changed or why our pituitary has changed, organs that regulate vitamins/minerals and hormones etc we're not going to have an answer, that's my opinion.
Damaged Thyroid that's the other one, all well and good taking Iodine but if there's damage you gotta somehow fix that first yeah?
1 minute ago, TrueJustice said:I appreciate the science and the story on that 4 year old girl is good BUT we've all supplemented with Zinc before haven't we??
Im just not big on blood tests anymore - yes they fluctuate, until we work out why the liver has changed or why our pituitary has changed, organs that regulate vitamins/minerals and hormones etc we're not going to have an answer, that's my opinion.
Damaged Thyroid that's the other one, all well and good taking Iodine but if there's damage you gotta somehow fix that first yeah?
yes, obviously everyone has looked at zinc in the past, but im looking at it in different ways.
me personally, first im looking at zinc gluconate. im not looking at designer zincs like optizinc or chelated zincs. im not looking at fastest or highest absorption. im actually looking at slow absorption, something that hangs out in the gut longer. zinc sulfate and zinc gluconate are the most medically studied zinc salts. zinc gluconate being easier on the stomach. im looking at what might be going on with copper and zinc. ie their could be abnormal copper transit(and build up) from either the liver or the gut that could be hindered by and or block zinc deficiency/absorption.
Im also looking at a higher dosage possibly over 50mg, maybe 100 maybe as high as 150, while monitoring copper levels as well.maybe there is even a negative impact with zinc. say we are having problems with metal ions in general.
Im looking at different scenarios. while keeping overall health in mind.
Let me play doctor real quick,( yea I could do it with zinc as well) but,
why do you think there is something wrong with your pituitary gland?
Why do you think there is something wrong with your thyroid?
dont worry i'll drop this fast as fuck if it ends up being nothing.
I don't know that the Thyroid or pituitary are damaged - it's a guess due to all the experimenting we've done, why is it that we don't respond to supplements that other people take and get great results from!?
It suggests to me that something is damaged with signaling!
I do like where you heading with looking into zinc. When I had the hair mineral test done years ago that came back saying high copper my kinesiologist was saying get on the Zinc. But like I said no one knows if the underlying problem is a damaged organ or not meaning you can supplement all you want, have a perfect diet etc. If the thing that needs to signal and metabolise etc isn't working than no amount of supplementing is going to fix the problem.
I've been off Accutane for about 9 years now. I am still stuffering from xerostomia (severe dry mouth)
Does anyone have any recommendations...supplements or anything?!? I drink plenty of water and chew sugar free gum. Oh and I've also tried Proserpine but that didn't help.
1 hour ago, Tensor187x said:I've been off Accutane for about 9 years now. I am still stuffering from xerostomia (severe dry mouth)
Does anyone have any recommendations...supplements or anything?!? I drink plenty of water and chew sugar free gum. Oh and I've also tried Proserpine but that didn't help.
yes, you would be a excellent person to try this. you should really try 50mg daily of zinc gluconate and see if it helps with your dry mouth. let me know . You can buy this generic at most drug stores. it has to be zinc gluconate, and nothing else. you will notice pretty fast if it does help. Alot of people have the dry, sort of dirty mouth with tongue coating post tane. This is in part what ends up leading to increased dental issues.
I've noticed my mouth feeling cleaner with more moisture with zinc gluconate.
So again its cheap enough to at least try this.
oh yea almost forgot, take it on a empty stomach away from food, 1 hr before or 2 hours after.
here are some references its use in hydration.
http://www.who.int/elena/titles/bbc/zinc_diarrhoea/en/
Oral rehydration is a well-known and relatively simple treatment approach (814). Zinc supplementation has been found to reduce the duration and severity of diarrhoeal episodes and likelihood of subsequent infections for 23 months (1518). Zinc supplements are generally accepted by both children and caregivers and are effective regardless of the type of common zinc salt used (zinc sulphate, zinc acetate or zinc gluconate) (7,19).
Supplementary zinc benefits children with diarrhoea because it is a vital micronutrient essential for protein synthesis, cell growth and differentiation, immune function, and intestinal transport of water and electrolytes (2023). Zinc is also important for normal growth and development of children both with and without diarrhoea (2426). Zinc deficiency is associated with an increased risk of gastrointestinal infections, adverse effects on the structure and function of the gastrointestinal tract, and impaired immune function (21,2730). Dietary deficiency of zinc is especially common in low-income countries because of a low dietary intake of zinc-rich foods (mainly foods of animal origin) or inadequate absorption caused by its binding to dietary fibre and phytates often found in cereals, nuts and legumes (31,32).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_of_dehydration
To prevent dehydration and electrolyte loss, it is widely recommended a person begin drinking Oral Rehydration Solution (ORS) as soon as possible. This strategy adds modest amounts of sugar and salt to water. There are prepackaged ORS products available. A person can also use home products such as lightly salted soup and/or lightly salted water from the cooking of rice. Supplemental zinc and potassium are also helpful, but ORS should not be delayed in the case that these are not immediately available.[1][2]
Medium dehydration[edit]
In what the World Health Organization (WHO) terms "some dehydration," the child or adult is restless and irritable, is thirsty, and will drink eagerly.[1]
WHO recommends that if there is vomiting, dont stop, but do pause for 510 minutes and then restart at a slower pace. (Vomiting seldom prevents successful rehydration since most of the fluid is still absorbed. Plus, vomiting usually stops after the first one to four hours of rehydration.) With the older WHO solution, also give some clean water during rehydration. With the newer reduced-osmolarity, more dilute solution, this is not necessary.[1]
Begin to offer food after the initial four-hour rehydration period with children and adults. With infants, continue to breastfeed even during rehydration as long as the infant will breastfeed. Begin zinc supplementation after initial four-hour rehydration to reduce severity and duration of episode. If available, zinc supplementation should be continued for 10 to 14 days. During the initial period of rehydration, the patient should be re-assessed at least every four hours.[1]
The family should be provided with at least two days worth of ORS packets. WHO recommends, in addition to infants continued to be breastfed, that children older than six months be given some food before being sent home, which helps to emphasize to parents the importance of continuing to feed the child during diarrhea.[1]
47 minutes ago, Colinboko said:To kind of spin off the above comment...
how how many singers out there experiencing voice trauma post tane? I've lost a lot of my upper range. And it also makes me wonder because voice loss/hoarseness is super common in hypothyroidism...
Yep, even if you're not a singer, doing presentations etc I notice voice not so strong, coupled with brain fog this is a problem.
zinc or Iodine? Or both, now this is the question?!
if I only knew what to do....
Also, kind of TMI but whatever..
anyone else have green stool? And it's funny because I'm constipated. Sometimes it'll be green with random dark brown spots on it, almost like some of the food was absorbed properly and some of it was not. Can this indicate a bile/liver issue? Any thoughts?
On 27.03.2017 at 5:33 PM, cnb30 said:On 26.03.2017 at 9:39 PM, Umas said:I am on LDN since wednesday. I was interested in it because of digestive issues, it's only few days so I don't expect it to help so quick but holy cow it helped. Not for digestive issues, but for mental part and energy levels. I feel sooo much better, normally at last. I still have pain in my body, but I can actually concentrate on other things, and brain fog is no more.
What is LDN?
Low dose naltrexone... It's prescription drug, but I get prescription on it without much problem in central europe, so in USA that's should be even easier. I am on 3mg per night dose
7 hours ago, Tensor187x said:I've been off Accutane for about 9 years now. I am still stuffering from xerostomia (severe dry mouth)
Does anyone have any recommendations...supplements or anything?!? I drink plenty of water and chew sugar free gum. Oh and I've also tried Proserpine but that didn't help.
Look into Iodine. Also start brushing your teeth with baking soda and get the Oregawash mouthwash from Amazon. I would also suggest that you always rinse your mouth witha good chunk of baking soda after brushing.
If you smokecigarettes - stop it, it'll make your dry mouth 100x worse.
13 hours ago, Colinboko said:Also, kind of TMI but whatever..
anyone else have green stool? And it's funny because I'm constipated. Sometimes it'll be green with random dark brown spots on it, almost like some of the food was absorbed properly and some of it was not. Can this indicate a bile/liver issue? Any thoughts?
There is absolutely no doubt that the liver and bile flow are factors in all this, and this ties in with gut health and so on - its all related, its just as yet unclear as to exactly what the root cause is.
DNA profiling probably offers one of the best chances to try and find a trend amongst people who are suffering from accutane sides, PFS, and other related conditions. Mario Vitalli has been collecting 23andme data from sufferers, including myself, and has been using software to look for trends.
So far he has established that there is a trend amongst sufferers which appears to be with the sulfation pathway. This is not only a major detox pathway, but is also needed for proper bile acid metabolism.
Information on one of the defective genes I have is below, and no surprise to see associations wth cholostasis - this could also tie in with that 8 tips for accutane recovery video on youtube which specifically mentions treating colostatis using TUDCA and chinese bitters for bile flow.
http://www.malacards.org/search/results/ATP8B1
Everyone should get a 23andme DNA test done, and provide the data to @mariovitali. It's cheap test and it's worth it. Anyone who has the data already, please provide this to Mario.
This PDF explains Liver Detox pathways extremely well, and includes suggested supplements, but specifically looking at sulfation;
QuoteSulphate conjugation (sulphation)
This is the pathway where toxins attach with sulphur-containing compounds. This is the main liver detoxification pathway that neutralizes the stress hormone cortisol, as well as some commonly-prescribed pharmaceuticals, food additives, aspartame, toxins produced by intestinal bacteria, neurotransmitters, steroid hormones, certain drugs such as Acetaminophen (also known as Paracetamol or Tylenol) , environmental toxins, and many xenobiotic and phenolic compounds (Some phenols are germicidal and are used in formulating disinfectants. Others possess estrogenic or endocrine disrupting activity - Bad ones: hormone disruptors (xenoestrogens, Bisphenol A) Good ones: some flavonoids and other fat-soluble anti- oxidants, neurotransmitters). Sulfation is also used to detoxify some normal body chemicals and is the main pathway for the elimination of steroid (glucocorticoids, mineralocorticoids, androgens, estrogens, and progestagens) and thyroid hormones.
Sources of sulphur include the sulphur-bearing amino acids such as methionine and cysteine, in addition to the nutritional product methylsulfonylmethane (MSM). Many factors influence the activity of sulfate conjugation. For example, a diet low in methionine and cysteine has been shown to reduce sulfation. Sulfation is also reduced by excessive levels of molybdenum or vitamin B6 (over about 100 mg/day). In some cases, sulfation can be increased by supplemental sulfate, extra amounts of sulfur-containing foods in the diet, and the amino acidstaurine and glutathione. Large doses of N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC) are a standard treatment for Tylenol (paracetamol or acetaminophen) overdose.
Since sulfation is also the primary route for the elimination of neurotransmitters, dysfunction in this system may contribute to the development of some nervous system disorders. Steventon at Birmingham University (UK) has found that many sufferers from parkinsonism, motor neurone disease and Alzheimers disease as well as environmental illness, tend to have a reduced ability to produce sulphate from the amino acid cysteine in their body, and instead accumulate cysteine. Sulphate may be ingested from food, but is also produced by the action of the enzyme cysteine dioxygenase on cysteine. This process is known as sulphoxidation. The bodys ability to conjugate toxins with sulphate is 'rate limited' by the amount of sulphate present; if there is inadequate sulphate, toxins and metabolites can accumulate, perhaps building up to levels which cause degeneration of nervous tissue after several decades. Steventons findings are a matter for serious concern. How many individuals are given the opportunity to find out whether they are poor sulphoxidizers and to reduce their chances of developing the above mentioned diseases by improving their sulphoxidation ability?
http://balancedconcepts.net/liver_phases_detox_paths.pdf
Also the abovepossibly goes some way to explaining why cortisol is usually so high post-tane. My cortisol was right at the top of the range, so if the pathway that neutralises this hormone is compromised then that could be a factor.
3 hours ago, tanedout said:There is absolutely no doubt that the liver and bile flow are factors in all this, and this ties in with gut health and so on - its all related, its just as yet unclear as to exactly what the root cause is.DNA profiling probably offers one of the best chances to try and find a trend amongst people who are suffering from accutane sides, PFS, and other related conditions. Mario Vitalli has been collecting 23andme data from sufferers, including myself, and has been using software to look for trends.
So far he has established that there is a trend amongst sufferers which appears to be with the sulfation pathway. This is not only a major detox pathway, but is also needed for proper bile acid metabolism.
Information on one of the defective genes I have is below, and no surprise to see associations wth cholostasis - this could also tie in with that 8 tips for accutane recovery video on youtube which specifically mentions treating colostatis using TUDCA and chinese bitters for bile flow.
http://www.malacards.org/search/results/ATP8B1
Everyone should get a 23andme DNA test done, and provide the data to @mariovitali. It's cheap test and it's worth it. Anyone who has the data already, please provide this to Mario.
This PDF explains Liver Detox pathways extremely well, and includes suggested supplements, but specifically looking at sulfation;
http://balancedconcepts.net/liver_phases_detox_paths.pdf
Also the abovepossibly goes some way to explaining why cortisol is usually so high post-tane. My cortisol was right at the top of the range, so if the pathway that neutralises this hormone is compromised then that could be a factor.
Simpler take home message from this? Haha sorry, sometimes the Science is just a bit too hard to follow.