3 hours ago, QuietSoldier said:

It's crazy to think, but I'm pretty sure the AR insensitivity theory is correct. Somehow a lot of us actually have TOO high of DHT levels in comparison to the level of sensitivity that our receptors can handle. 5AR-inhibition is necessary I believe as scary as it sounds.

Under the reasonable conclusion that I need to increase DHT after taking Accutane, I've tried many things to do it. I've tried sorghum, tribulus terrestris, creatine, and even a DHT-precursor. All these things made me worse off: more brain fog, bloating, eye pain, thinning hair, etc.

Lately though, I've been taking 450mg of Saw Palmetto per day and things have been steadily improving. My hair actually feels like hair is supposed to feel, my skin isn't as much of a dried-out greasy mess, my pecs don't bloat and make me feel like I have man boobs, and my eyes aren't constantly red and painful. Sexually, improvement isn't happening as rapidly as it is in other areas, but there's been slight improvement.

I've tried Saw Palmetto in the past, but overdid it and started feeling completely castrated. That was while taking 3-5 pills a day of the stuff though. I think like a previous post said, they key is to keep it in the appropriate range. So I'm taking it slow with just one pill a day now.

Before this I tried the Zinc method since it's also a 5AR-inhibitor, but the other effects of zinc eventually ended up making me go emotionally and even physically numb, so I cut that off quickly.

Hope this keeps up.

Saw palmetto that's interesting most people post tan want to avoid it .

1 hour ago, Gladiatoro said:

5 hours ago, QuietSoldier said:

It's crazy to think, but I'm pretty sure the AR insensitivity theory is correct. Somehow a lot of us actually have TOO high of DHT levels in comparison to the level of sensitivity that our receptors can handle. 5AR-inhibition is necessary I believe as scary as it sounds.

Under the reasonable conclusion that I need to increase DHT after taking Accutane, I've tried many things to do it. I've tried sorghum, tribulus terrestris, creatine, and even a DHT-precursor. All these things made me worse off: more brain fog, bloating, eye pain, thinning hair, etc.

Lately though, I've been taking 450mg of Saw Palmetto per day and things have been steadily improving. My hair actually feels like hair is supposed to feel, my skin isn't as much of a dried-out greasy mess, my pecs don't bloat and make me feel like I have man boobs, and my eyes aren't constantly red and painful. Sexually, improvement isn't happening as rapidly as it is in other areas, but there's been slight improvement.

I've tried Saw Palmetto in the past, but overdid it and started feeling completely castrated. That was while taking 3-5 pills a day of the stuff though. I think like a previous post said, they key is to keep it in the appropriate range. So I'm taking it slow with just one pill a day now.

Before this I tried the Zinc method since it's also a 5AR-inhibitor, but the other effects of zinc eventually ended up making me go emotionally and even physically numb, so I cut that off quickly.

Hope this keeps up.

Saw palmetto that's interesting most people post tan want to avoid it .

EVERYONE should avoid it. Just like they should avoid accutane and finasteride!!!
Anabolic men know their stuff and they say no to these 3 killers.

10 hours ago, QuietSoldier said:

It's crazy to think, but I'm pretty sure the AR insensitivity theory is correct. Somehow a lot of us actually have TOO high of DHT levels in comparison to the level of sensitivity that our receptors can handle. 5AR-inhibition is necessary I believe as scary as it sounds.

Under the reasonable conclusion that I need to increase DHT after taking Accutane, I've tried many things to do it. I've tried sorghum, tribulus terrestris, creatine, and even a DHT-precursor. All these things made me worse off: more brain fog, bloating, eye pain, thinning hair, etc.

Lately though, I've been taking 450mg of Saw Palmetto per day and things have been steadily improving. My hair actually feels like hair is supposed to feel, my skin isn't as much of a dried-out greasy mess, my pecs don't bloat and make me feel like I have man boobs, and my eyes aren't constantly red and painful. Sexually, improvement isn't happening as rapidly as it is in other areas, but there's been slight improvement.

I've tried Saw Palmetto in the past, but overdid it and started feeling completely castrated. That was while taking 3-5 pills a day of the stuff though. I think like a previous post said, they key is to keep it in the appropriate range. So I'm taking it slow with just one pill a day now.

Before this I tried the Zinc method since it's also a 5AR-inhibitor, but the other effects of zinc eventually ended up making me go emotionally and even physically numb, so I cut that off quickly.

Hope this keeps up.

how much zinc were you taking when you experienced these side effects? and were you taking the zinc on a daily basis?

wow, you're pretty brave to be taking saw palmetto. I know I wouldnt risk it, personally zinc has been working for me. But if its working for you then thats great, experimentation is definitely a good thing. That being said, I think you might want to consider only taking saw palmetto every other day. If you take saw palmetto every day then its going to drive your DHT levels down too low too fast. Assuming that the VAPP model is correct, then you want to keep your DHT levels in the androgen receptor sensitvity range as long as possible, and in fact it is even better if you let your DHT levels zig zag up and down within this range. For some reason taking supplements every other day seems to have a tonifying, balancing, and overall more powerful effect which taking supplements on a daily basis just doesnt seem to have.

Accutane does lower pituitary hormones, true. It would be very hard to show up normal on a test and somehow prove that your levels were higher before Tane. I believe this is what's happening with me. I'm wondering if these sexual sides that the doc above is treating with clomid / hcg are in patients with T levels below the reference range.

8 hours ago, Mike San said:

Accutane does lower pituitary hormones, true. It would be very hard to show up normal on a test and somehow prove that your levels were higher before Tane. I believe this is what's happening with me. I'm wondering if these sexual sides that the doc above is treating with clomid / hcg are in patients with T levels below the reference range.

If that's the case with Pituitary gland has anyone tried Pituitary supplements??

I gather by the no response last time that no one has!!

Could be worth a try even it improves our condition just slightly.

Stay away from loving and caring derms , the side effect of this chemo drug will haunt you for the rest of your life.

1 hour ago, TrueJustice said:

If that's the case with Pituitary gland has anyone tried Pituitary supplements??

I gather by the no response last time that no one has!!

Could be worth a try even it improves our condition just slightly.

I might try Pregnenolone after my Epitalon is finished, and maybe later on HGH.

You may think your fine now but what kind of dibilitating side effect are you going to have down the road so you have to ask yourself punk do you feel lucky we'll do you PUNK. This is for would be tan users.

On 11/3/2016 at 1:00 AM, Kynarr said:

I've been taking Iodine for about 2 weeks. I have more energy, feel less bloated, and feel sharper, as if my IQ somehow jumped up a couple points. It's a part of me I hadn't seen in many years. This may be completely unrelated to Accutane. As far as I understand it right now, we're dealing with too much fluoride, chloride and bromide in our world, which are all antagonist to Iodine. Interestingly, a lot of mainstream (and even paleo) sources are mostly against supplementing unless there is a proved deficiency. If you look deeper, you'll see talks about decalcifying different glands in the body, and people attempting mega doses of Iodine to try to get back to a normal state. It's definitely worth looking into.

I've only started taking Iodine due to claims that it helps heighten Testosterone levels. There's protocols about rubbing it directly on your testicles, something I've yet to try. I definitely suggest your get your hormone panel if you haven't already. Note that doctors seem to completely disregard low T for males. Read up about it. If you're anywhere below 500 total T, and you're not over 70 years old, something is likely wrong, and I have the feeling the main cause is Accutane.

Besides Iodine however, if there is one compound I believe everyone should try here, it's Calcium D Glucarate. I'm at over 90g in the past 2 months and the changes have been dramatic for me. I feel like crying typing this, as I believe I'm on my way to being cured.

Lastly, I just ordered a compound named Glucuronolactone. It seems to be a derivative of Calcium D Glucarate. There's just about no data on it you can find, except that there's some in energy drinks. Seems to deal more with the skin and connective tissues than CdG. It's also very cheap. As with CdG, it's supposed to help detoxify, and I'm curious if it would somehow act favorably in regards to Accutane.

Some Iodine sources:
http://www.curezone.org/faq/q.asp?a=13,281,2962&q=572
http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t5892-dramatic-increase-in-dreams-since-iodine-supplementation
[Edited link out]

[Edited link out]

How effective have you found glucuronolactone? also, has calcium d glucarate continued to be effective? Any updates would be much appreciated as I am considering trying this. Thanks!

On 11/21/2016 at 4:08 AM, QuietSoldier said:

It's crazy to think, but I'm pretty sure the AR insensitivity theory is correct. Somehow a lot of us actually have TOO high of DHT levels in comparison to the level of sensitivity that our receptors can handle. 5AR-inhibition is necessary I believe as scary as it sounds.

Under the reasonable conclusion that I need to increase DHT after taking Accutane, I've tried many things to do it. I've tried sorghum, tribulus terrestris, creatine, and even a DHT-precursor. All these things made me worse off: more brain fog, bloating, eye pain, thinning hair, etc.

Lately though, I've been taking 450mg of Saw Palmetto per day and things have been steadily improving. My hair actually feels like hair is supposed to feel, my skin isn't as much of a dried-out greasy mess, my pecs don't bloat and make me feel like I have man boobs, and my eyes aren't constantly red and painful. Sexually, improvement isn't happening as rapidly as it is in other areas, but there's been slight improvement.

I've tried Saw Palmetto in the past, but overdid it and started feeling completely castrated. That was while taking 3-5 pills a day of the stuff though. I think like a previous post said, they key is to keep it in the appropriate range. So I'm taking it slow with just one pill a day now.

Before this I tried the Zinc method since it's also a 5AR-inhibitor, but the other effects of zinc eventually ended up making me go emotionally and even physically numb, so I cut that off quickly.

Hope this keeps up.

Yeah I tend to agree on the AR theory, and I'm also one of those with high DHT (I'm 40% above the top of the normal range [DHT = 4.1 nmol/L (range 0.9 - 2.90)]), however both free and total testosterone are fairly low, but within range. I think this just adds weight to the theory, and it's interesting that someone recently posted up about 2 subsets of PFS;

PFS type 1: 5AR/DHT levels are impaired but androgen receptors are still somewhat functional. (They are still abnormal though) People with PFS type 1 respond best to things like creatine, sorghum, weightlifting, etc. Basically anything that boosts 5AR/DHT.

PFS type 2: 5AR/DHT levels are too high relative to the sensitivity levels of the androgen receptors. People with PFS type 2 respond best to things that lower 5AR/DHT levels, such as zinc, marijuana or even things like saw palmetto and microdoses of propecia. (wouldnt recommend the last one though)

[Edited link out]

Oily skin is generally associated with high DHT and my face is always very oily, whereas when taking tane it was totally dry. Obviously some people are left with persistently dry skin.

This also ties in with the Dr Prezzi (sp?) method - he cured his accutane sides by taking a small amount of finasteride over a course of some months, so presumably he was left with persistently high DHT post-tane.

The fact there are likely 2 types of PFS just confuses the whole thing even more as people tend to all follow the same protocols.

Quote

zinc deficiency results in decreasedsynthesisof retinol-binding protein (RBP), which transports retinol through the circulation to peripheral tissues and protects the organism against potential toxicity of retinol; (2) zinc deficiency results in decreased activity of theenzymethat releases retinol from its storage form, retinyl palmitate, in the liver;

I think that's why after several days on zinc I start to feel much worse. Retinol stored in liver is redistributed through the body. It's more likely that we have in fact too much vitamin A in liver. Maybe those who got sides after a small amount of isotretinoin already had their liver storage of retinol at maximum?

17 hours ago, TrueJustice said:

If that's the case with Pituitary gland has anyone tried Pituitary supplements??

I gather by the no response last time that no one has!!

Could be worth a try even it improves our condition just slightly.

I'm not sure what you count as a pituitary supplement?

Id say definitely worth a try, but first its wise to do a complete hormone panel.

Hey guys,

I'll be getting a prescription for my next blood work this thursday and I want to make sure I have my bases covered. I've tried to account for all the suggestions in this thread. Would you kindly comment on what I'm about to get tested and if anything else is worth adding? Currently focusing on hormones as I'm now convinced my T is abnormally low. Thank you!

Copper
Zinc
Magnesium
Vit A
Vit D
Cholesterol

Hormones
Free + Total T (+ bioavailable T?)
DHEA
DHT
Estradiol
SHBG
Cortisol
LH
FSH
Prolactin

Thyroid: TSH T3 T4

@KynarrI'd gethomocysteine tested too

Expect most if not all of those will come back in range though, which is half the issue here. Expect FSH, LH, free and total T to be on the low-side, cortisol to be high.

Keep us posted when you get the results though!

2 hours ago, Mike San said:

I'm not sure what you count as a pituitary supplement?

Id say definitely worth a try, but first its wise to do a complete hormone panel.

When you google "Pituitary supplement" heaps of stuff comes up.

One in particular is Raw Pituitary glandular by Swanson - that looks interesting.

In terms of testing, been there and done it - nothing conclusive ever comes from it. Waste of time and money - we are on our own with this mess constantly self diagnosing and experimenting.

Thats the reality for me after 20 years. It's like we've been left with Parkinson's or something which as you know there is no cure for....

1 hour ago, Kynarr said:

Hey guys,

I'll be getting a prescription for my next blood work this thursday and I want to make sure I have my bases covered. I've tried to account for all the suggestions in this thread. Would you kindly comment on what I'm about to get tested and if anything else is worth adding? Currently focusing on hormones as I'm now convinced my T is abnormally low. Thank you!

Copper
Zinc
Magnesium
Vit A
Vit D
Cholesterol

Hormones
Free + Total T (+ bioavailable T?)
DHEA
DHT
Estradiol
SHBG
Cortisol
LH
FSH
Prolactin

Thyroid: TSH T3 T4

Wouldn't hurt to add iron to the list as well.

1 hour ago, tanedout said:

@Kynarr I'd get homocysteine tested too

Expect most if not all of those will come back in range though, which is half the issue here. Expect FSH, LH, free and total T to be on the low-side, cortisol to be high. 

Keep us posted when you get the results though!

My cortisol wasn't high.

38 minutes ago, ehohel said:

Wouldn't hurt to add iron to the list as well. My cortisol wasn't high.

I'll add homocysteine for the sake of it, but my B12 has always been on the very high end of the range. Iron is always high too, as I'd expect from vit A toxicity, but I circumvent that through donating blood, so I figure there's no point testing it as there won't be any surprises.

Cortisol was high the last time. Total T was low. Never had FSH and LH tested so this will be new data for me. Look up my post history if you care, I've already posted my July 2016 results here, and I will definitely post my next results. I'll just wait for my Ostarine cycle + PCT to be over before I get tested.

Thank you all for the info!

Couple of compounds I found interesting that I might consider trying. Feel free to look into them and let me know what you think.

MK-677 (growth hormone secretagogue) (I will most likely be trying this soonish)

SR9009 (reversesmitochondrial damage)

RAD140 (This compound provides is being studied for neuroprotection as well; an important neural action of endogenous androgens that is relevant to neural health and resilience to neurodegenerative diseases, and to be as effective as testosterone in reducing cell death induced by apoptotic insults.) Sounds interesting

Anastrozole (aromatase inhibitor)

On 11/23/2016 at 4:09 AM, Kynarr said:

I'll add homocysteine for the sake of it, but my B12 has always been on the very high end of the range. Iron is always high too, as I'd expect from vit A toxicity, but I circumvent that through donating blood, so I figure there's no point testing it as there won't be any surprises.

Cortisol was high the last time. Total T was low. Never had FSH and LH tested so this will be new data for me. Look up my post history if you care, I've already posted my July 2016 results here, and I will definitely post my next results. I'll just wait for my Ostarine cycle + PCT to be over before I get tested.

Thank you all for the info!

Kynarr, you just made my day - thank you. Everybody needs to get testing.

Your right about the B12, homocysteine  connection but there are reports that accutane causes increased homocysteine so try if you can to get this tested.
If you really are up for pushing you doctor then include HGH. This might be deficient given that there may be pituitary damage. 
(anyone researched this?)
3 adiol - G apparently is a better indicator of DHT  -  many FIN guys  are in the lower range.
Remember to get a print out of you results. You may see something that doctors are quick to dismiss.

I believe you can have dopamine and norepinephrine can be tested by way of 24 hour urine test.

If you manage to get half of your list tested you will deserve a star. It may help if you can back up the reasons for each test you want
and argue that many guys are consistently reporting problems in these areas.

Your from Canada if I remember  rightly!
Good luck.

(High cortisol)

On 11/23/2016 at 4:14 AM, ehohel said:

Couple of compounds I found interesting that I might consider trying. Feel free to look into them and let me know what you think.

MK-677 (growth hormone secretagogue) (I will most likely be trying this soonish)

SR9009 (reverses mitochondrial damage)

RAD140 (This compound provides is being studied for neuroprotection as well; an important neural action of endogenous androgens that is relevant to neural health and resilience to neurodegenerative diseases, and to be as effective as testosterone in reducing cell death induced by apoptotic insults.) Sounds interesting

Anastrozole (aromatase inhibitor)

I will look those up.
Just found this, which looks interesting.
[removed]

Anyone had HGH tested?

Please have you estradiol checked before trying to lower it.
Accutane can cause very low estradiol - FACT!!

google Nelson Vergel Estradiol in men. You guys have to get tested!
 

Kynarr.
Sorry to harp on. It may be worth asking for progesterone and pregnenolone test as well.

Watch the video on the site.

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/progesterone-for-a-dude.10052/print

On 11/23/2016 at 6:49 AM, hatetane said:

Kynarr, you just made my day - thank you. Everybody needs to get testing.

Your right about the B12, homocysteine connection but there are reports that accutane causes increased homocysteine so try if you can to get this tested.
If you really are up for pushing you doctor then include HGH. This might be deficient given that there may be pituitary damage.
(anyone researched this?)
3 adiol - G apparently is a better indicator of DHT - many FIN guys are in the lower range.
Remember to get a print out of you results. You may see something that doctors are quick to dismiss.

I believe you can have dopamine andnorepinephrine can be tested by way of 24 hour urine test.

If you manage to get half of your list tested you will deserve a star. It may help if you can back up the reasons for each test you want
and argue that many guys are consistently reporting problems in these areas.

Your from Canada if I remember rightly!
Good luck.

(High cortisol) I will look those up.
Just found this, which looks interesting.
[removed]

Anyone had HGH tested?

Please have you estradiol checked before trying to lower it.
Accutane can cause very low estradiol - FACT!!

google Nelson Vergel Estradiol in men. You guys have to get tested!

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/10/14/the-most-dangerous-heavily-promoted-prescription-drugs-possible-natural-alternatives/

On 11/22/2016 at 0:11 AM, TrueJustice said:

If that's the case with Pituitary gland has anyone tried Pituitary supplements??

I gather by the no response last time that no one has!!

Could be worth a try even it improves our condition just slightly.

Those Fin guys have every test under the sun and some of them do recover.
I know side effects of accutane are many and varied but if you have sexual side you have all your sex hormones tested.
Can someone tell me - is it fear, lack of doctor support, self denial or just pure laziness?
All the research papers I read say that androgens are not affected by Finasteride and accutane; the recent PFS report also says this.
But it just isn't right, Longterm testosterone is greatly decreased and for some below a healthy range.
I repeat myself - most of you are within range although on the lowish side so your doctor says it ok. Well no it isn't
because it is having a knock on effect on all your other hormones. GET TESTED!
True justice: Dubya (lasting sides and this forum) had clomid treatment. I don't know what his full protocol was but overall I don't believe
it worked for him.
I think Marlin15 (I may be wrong) had clomid to increase under range T and said it worked for him and that it improved sexual sides.
Unfortunately he was still is such an unhealthy state that he was unable to enjoy the benefits.
Also in one journal nothing helped one guy even clomid.
Apologies to Marlin if I got this wrong but one guy on here told me this story - just can't recall exactly who it was.
So I am not saying it will cure everyone and it also comes with it own side effects - go figure!
But what we don't know is: if and how many men are having success with clomid and possibly HCG. Remember I posted before
that Dr Shippen uses this protocol for PFS - check this out!
Dr Goldstein has treated accutane suffers and so has Dr Jacob. They both do free complementary 10/15 minute telephone conversation
to potential clients. Why don't you guys (especially USA) take advantage of this and try and find out what their success rate is.

Does anyone think testing is a waste of time? Maybe this is why not enough testing is being done.
Maybe your problems aren't serious enough to warrant testing - just saying!!!

I just get the impression that when one comes on to this forum they assume that everything has been tried and tested so there is no point
in going to doctors.
Well I hate them too and I don't believe they have a clue but if you don't get tested you really will never know what you are up against.
Remember everyone is different and will have different results but we still need to compare to see if a pattern appears.

On 11/21/2016 at 3:11 PM, Mike San said:

Accutane does lower pituitary hormones, true. It would be very hard to show up normal on a test and somehow prove that your levels were higher before Tane. I believe this is what's happening with me. I'm wondering if these sexual sides that the doc above is treating with clomid / hcg are in patients with T levels below the reference range.

I would suspect low as well as below range.

By a leading doctor, sorry I can't say who!!

12 hours ago, TrueJustice said:

When you google "Pituitary supplement" heaps of stuff comes up.

One in particular is Raw Pituitary glandular by Swanson - that looks interesting.

In terms of testing, been there and done it - nothing conclusive ever comes from it. Waste of time and money - we are on our own with this mess constantly self diagnosing and experimenting.

Thats the reality for me after 20 years. It's like we've been left with Parkinson's or something which as you know there is no cure for....

So you had HGH, SHGB, Adiol - G and many other tests done - have you ever shared these results?

here i