13 hours ago, TrueJustice said:

Im just at a point where all these detoxes, gut remedies, antibiotics etc do nothing. Im thinking of going back on an antidepressants or at least looking at things that address brain health more directly cause everything else isn't working!!

Hey, man. I've been reading your posts for a while. It seems like you've been overwhelmed trying to find a direction for this healing process. I'm right there with you.

I noticed you said you've been looking into getting back on antidepressants. I don't blame you. But if you decide to go that route, keep in mind doctors are often quick to try one SSRI after another, even if you have failed to respond to multiple drugs in that class. In my opinion, if 2 SSRIs don't work, there's no point in perusing that type of drug further. MAOIs are another type of antidepressant. They are highly effective, but have gotten a bad reputation due to their dietary restrictions. However, most are safe and actually do not come with sexual sides. Examples: Moclobemide, Parnate, Nardil (highest side effect profile of the three). There are more, but also keep in mind more unconventional antidepressants: Tianeptine, Ketamine (available in clinics), Agmatine, NSI-189, etc. Some doctors seem to keep their scope small.

Now, if you're interested in a more holistic approach, I recommend looking into autoimmume diets. By design, they focus on cellular heath (specifically the mitochondria), and we know Accutane alters our cellular function. There are many different spin-offs of this type of diet, but I have had my eyes on the Wahls Protocol. You can learn a lot about it by reading online, but books are available. This dietary protocol has clinical trials behind it and has helped people with numerous degenerative diseases. I think in conjunction with LDN, it could turn my health around. (LDN alone has improved my skin quality after a week.) Honestly, I'm not wasting my time with liver cleanses. My liver levels are normal and I'm not impressed with the science behind cleanses. (Feel free to prove me wrong.) But I like to follow the science. Evidence and research are what's going to lead to answers. Plain and simple. Hang in there.

How funny is this guy!!

Try niacin for depression!

5 hours ago, ACCUiTy_drANE said:

Hey, man. I've been reading your posts for a while. It seems like you've been overwhelmed trying to find a direction for this healing process. I'm right there with you.

I noticed you said you've been looking into getting back on antidepressants. I don't blame you. But if you decide to go that route, keep in mind doctors are often quick to try one SSRI after another, even if you have failed to respond to multiple drugs in that class. In my opinion, if 2 SSRIs don't work, there's no point in perusing that type of drug further. MAOIs are another type of antidepressant. They are highly effective, but have gotten a bad reputation due to their dietary restrictions. However, most are safe and actually do not come with sexual sides. Examples: Moclobemide, Parnate, Nardil (highest side effect profile of the three). There are more, but also keep in mind more unconventional antidepressants: Tianeptine, Ketamine (available in clinics), Agmatine, NSI-189, etc. Some doctors seem to keep their scope small.

Now, if you're interested in a more holistic approach, I recommend looking into autoimmume diets. By design, they focus on cellular heath (specifically the mitochondria), and we know Accutane alters our cellular function. There are many different spin-offs of this type of diet, but I have had my eyes on the Wahls Protocol. You can learn a lot about it by reading online, but books are available. This dietary protocol has clinical trials behind it and has helped people with numerous degenerative diseases. I think in conjunction with LDN, it could turn my health around. (LDN alone has improved my skin quality after a week.) Honestly, I'm not wasting my time with liver cleanses. My liver levels are normal and I'm not impressed with the science behind cleanses. (Feel free to prove me wrong.) But I like to follow the science. Evidence and research are what's going to lead to answers. Plain and simple. Hang in there.

Thx for your thoughtful response!

Glad LDN is showing promise, I'll look into the antidepressants you've mentioned.

Liver cleanses - really hard to say if they work or not, I'd have to say that they do work for thousands of people but the energy I was hoping for has never come. My liver could be cleaner as a result of doing 6 cleanses but what's the point if you still feel like crap!!?? You mose well just take milk thistle and save yourself the hassle of the whole process!!

I've thrown a lot of time/energy/money at problems this year with no real result so that in of itself has brought on depression.

ill just have to hang in there.... 

posted wrong clip earlier - this is the funny guy!

Hello everyone, I took Accutane when I was 15, now 24 and I'm still searching for the solution. *Insert generic post Accutane horror story* (hair loss, depression, ed, dry skin/eyes, digestive problems, anxiety, no drive for life, brain fog, blurry vision, headaches, and still the occasional pimple lol fml)  

10,835 posts in this topic... Did anyone come up with a fool proof way yet?? I have my theories but the problems seem to always come back.

I know personally whenever I do an extended nofap / complete sperm retention (even with sex) the problems seem to be 50% gone. Earlier in the year I was on a 3 month no fap and I saw that my hair was actually starting to grow thicker and my skin had a youthful glow (I have photo proof). No anxiety, minimal depression, and could actually hold conversations with people. I had that vibe/energy of being "alive" that radiates out. 

This leads me to believe that there is a possible negative correlation with spinal fluid and accutane. We live in a matrix (sacred geometry), as above so below. The sperm cell grows into the spine. Ancient teachings talk about sperm retention for life force so this would make sense. Apparently Accutane was a type of chemotherapy, people who go through chemo look dead and lifeless(no life force).

Sperm contains a bunch of zinc, zinc is needed for HCL production, low HCL = poor digestion = hairloss? Apparently it takes a male a few months to gain back all the minerals he looses every time he ejaculates. Low mineral = low enzyme functions and a bunch of other things. Low HCL is also related to low bile. The darker your poops are the more bile you are producing. Personally my poops are light brown to tan which means low bile. Ejaculation is also a stressor on the body which sparks the fight or flight which leads to bad digestion and stress.

Apparently there is a link to spinal fluid and the lymphatic system (3x the amount of vessels compared to blood vessels). The Dr in the attached video explains it in greater detail. Last night I did the massage he talked about, went on a 2 mile fast passed walk with constant nasal breathing thru the diaphragm.(Diaphramic breathing is the vacuum that moves the lymph) When I got home my skin felt tighter, my hair fuller, and 0 brain fog and had the trippiest most intense dreams I've had all year. Unfortunately(or fortunately) I woke up the next day with a terrible "cold" or sinus congestion and all the negative accutane side effects. To learn more about the lymph system and overal optimal living i HIGHLY sugest everyone look up Dr Robert Morse. He simplifies all of humans problems and really explains whats going on in the world. The google for health would be [removed] .
 

With that said I also feel my symptoms go away after a good workout. But the next day they usually come back. This could be possible burning of the fat cells where the accutane is being stored but not a complete flush of the acctuane. We all know there liver damage caused by accutane so my assumption is the low bile flow leads to not being able to poop out the accutane so it gets re absorbed. This would also be the link to the ed, because estrogen is detoxed out the body from bile. 

I took progestrone cream and I found my sex drive partially came back within a few days. Progestrone is similar to finesteride in that it blocks DHT but without the negative sexual side effects. Estrogen dominace is usually just a lack of progestrone. I used Internal Harmony for women Progesterone Cream and had no problems. Your supposed to take it for over a few months to really get the benefits.

Accutane or retinoic acid is an acid. Acids are corrosive and break things down, which could be why we all feel like we are falling apart. I'm assuming that the retinoic acids are backed up in our lympatic system and livers. Again go to [removed] and type in accutane to learn more. 

My main question is how do we get the accutane out of our fat cells and out our bodies without getting re absorbed. If we find the answer to this I don't see why we couldn't all do extended fruit fast/water fasts to get it out of us. I'm just stuck because I always feel it getting re absorbed.

I also needed to share this video for anyone thinking about suicide or feeling hopeless because of Accutane. This video has a bunch of gems in it, from how to possibly heal accutane problems to how to raise your consciousness. I could not suggest this video more, if you have accutane problems please watch it.

Just saw this over on the ATM forum, some guy doing pretty well taking zinc supplements, and putting forward a very interesting theory which I can relate to regards taking certain sups which result in no morning glory for a while, then you stop and it slowly comes back after a time.

Also very interesting to read the theory of the type 1 and type 2 PFS. Personally based on these categorisations I would be a type 2, as sorghum for example seems to have no real impact, but I get benefits from weed (would rather not touch the stuff, but have tried it and it does result in improvements for a period), and zinc (I eat pumpkin seeds every day and have for a couple of years as I notice if I don't - great source of zinc). My bloods also show my DHT is high (DHT = 4.1 nmol/L (range0.9 - 2.90)

Quote

First a little bit of background about me:

I took accutane when I was 14-15, it left me with serious ED as well as caused my hair to shed profusely. Unfortunately when I was around 17-18 I was continuing to lose my hair so I thought I was experiencing male pattern baldness, as a result I decided to go on propecia as well. Predictably this messed my body up even more. Long story short, I have been suffering from the combined side effects of both accutane and propecia for the past 14 years of my life. I am 29 now. Up until about a month or so ago I was suffering from combined accutane and propecia side effects, but since discovering this new protocol I have been experiencing benefits and recovery like nothing I have ever experienced before. Trust me, I have had this problem for the past 14 years of my life, so I have tried just about everything to cure myself, and nothing has really worked for me until I figured out this protocol. The following is a repost of a post that I made on solvepfs.com, so it is mainly referring to PFS throughout the post. However like I said, I suffer from both accutane and propecia side effects, so Im confident that this protocol will work for accutane side effects sufferers as well.

Due to a recent chain of events and experimentation with a few things, I have stumbled across a new protocol that might be the cure for PFS. (as well as accutane side effects) Basically what my protocol involves is the strategic use of zinc, time, and the body's own homeostasis mechanisms to recover. What caused me to discover this new protocol was that I was recently experimenting with large doses of creatine (1 heaping tablespoon per day which is 20 grams of creatine) and it gave me negative effects within only 15-20 minutes of taking it. (general feeling of being disconnected, slight discomfort, shrinkage and no morning wood) After experimenting with it for a few days and seeing that it was completely counter-productive, it occurred to me that maybe I could use zinc (a known 5AR inhibitor) to possibly reverse the temporary side effects brought on by creatine. (a known 5AR/DHT increaser) So, I took 200 mg of zinc and literally within 15-20 minutes (a surprisingly fast amount of time), all the side effects of creatine had subsided and my entire body was filled with a very warm, connected feeling. Additionally the shrinkage caused by creatine reversed and I woke up with good morning wood the next day. It was this event that caused me to realize the potential utility of zinc. Not just as a mineral supplement, but rather as a means to reliably influence the hormones. So after this discovery, through a few weeks of trial and error, as well as lots of theoretical conjecture, I came up with this new protocol. First of all though, I want to run through a few theories that VAPP (variability and ping protocol) is based on:

In my opinion there are actually two types of PFS:

PFS type 1: 5AR/DHT levels are impaired but androgen receptors are still somewhat functional. (They are still abnormal though) People with PFS type 1 respond best to things like creatine, sorghum, weightlifting, etc. Basically anything that boosts 5AR/DHT.

PFS type 2: 5AR/DHT levels are too high relative to the sensitivity levels of the androgen receptors. People with PFS type 2 respond best to things that lower 5AR/DHT levels, such as zinc, marijuana or even things like saw palmetto and microdoses of propecia. (wouldnt recommend the last one though)

On this topic, whether you are PFS type 1 or 2 is not fixed necessarily. By that I mean that if you are PFS type 2 but overuse zinc, marijuana, saw palmetto etc then you can lower your 5AR/DHT levels too much which can cause a crash and make you become PFS type 1. Likewise, if you are PFS type 1 but overuse creatine, sorghum, tribulus etc then it will make you crash and you will become PFS type 2.

So with me, I strongly believe that I have PFS type 2. This is because I respond poorly to creatine (and really anything else that boosts 5AR/DHT) but respond fairly well to zinc. Also what I deduced from my experience is that when it comes to PFS type 2, it is true that your 5AR/DHT levels are too high. What is also true is that for your androgen receptors, they have a set range of DHT levels that they are sensitive to. If your DHT levels are over or below this range then you will not be able to utilize DHT properly. For people with PFS type 2, they simply have too much DHT relative to the sensitivity range for their androgen receptors, thus their bodies cant properly respond to the DHT. So for me, I had initially boosted my DHT levels too high by using creatine and it made my DHT levels out of the sensitivity range of my androgen receptors. Thus giving me side effects. However by taking zinc, it had a speedy effect in reducing my DHT levels to within the sensitivity range of my androgen receptors. This in term reversed the side effects brought on by creatine, as well as giving me very strong morning wood the next day. I want to add that from my subsequent experiments with zinc I have noticed that if I take too much then my morning wood also goes away. In my opinion this is further evidence for the theory that there is an optimal DHT range for the androgen receptors. It is not simply the case that those with PFS have completely inactive/desensitized androgen receptors.

At this point, through a lot of experimentation with zinc and keeping the above point in mind, I begin toying with the idea of using zinc to properly modulate my 5AR/DHT levels in sync with my body's own natural homeostatic cycles in order to better align my DHT levels with the sensitivity range of my androgen receptors. So in order to achieve this, I began supplementing with 100 mg of zinc every other day. I would do this until my morning wood would begin to get weak or even go away. At this point I would stop taking zinc for 3-5 days and then after 3-5 days was up then I would start taking zinc again. The reason for taking zinc every other day was to hopefully keep my DHT levels within a certain range, and not have them go too far up or down. However by utilizing this alternate day zinc protocol it actually lead me to discover another interesting phenomena which I will explain more in depth in the paragraph below:

I'll start out my explanation with an example. So if you take zinc, its going to temporarily depress your 5AR/DHT levels, however as the effect of the zinc begins to wear off, your body will naturally begin to regenerate its 5AR/DHT in order to restore homeostasis. Likewise, if you take creatine its going to temporarily spike your 5AR/DHT levels but afterwards your body will naturally bring your 5AR/DHT levels back down. That being said, it is through the process of the body attempting to return to its baselines that you can "hack" the body and change the baselines. For lack of a better term, I will refer to this mechanism as "variability". It is through consistently varying the levels of certain hormones and then allowing them to briefly recover that you can change your baselines. That being said though, when attempting to utilize variability its very important that you allow the body to attempt to return to its baselines through its own natural mechanisms. If you try to artificially induce variability by using multiple contradicting supplements to manipulate hormone levels then you actually reduce the effectiveness of variability. Thus you should not mix and match your supplements. IE use zinc and creatine at the same time. The same goes for concurrently taking zinc and lifting weights. I'll elaborate more on this later though. The important thing is to just manually adjust the levels of a certain hormone and then to let the body handle the rest. (IE Only take a given supplement every other day.) The mistake that we have been making up until now is that we were so eager to recover that we were taking supplements on a daily basis because we thought it would be more beneficial when actually it appears that it is more beneficial to take supplements every other day. Anyways, it is through variability that I feel like you can actually set an optimal baseline for your hormones.

That being said, I will now elaborate on the androgen receptor sensitivity concept that I was referring to earlier. Ok, so imagine that you have an arbitrary DHT scale that goes between 0 and 1000 units. Meanwhile, the androgen receptor sensitivity range (ARSR) is lets say somewhere between 400 and 800 units of DHT. In the ARSR, 400 and 800 units are the minimum and maximum thresholds, while 600 units is the optimal/normal point. Additionally lets say that for every 100 mg of zinc you take, it lowers your DHT units by 100, for every day that you don't take zinc your DHT levels regenerate by 50 units and finally a heaping tablespoon of creatine raises your DHT by 100 units. So for me, lets assume that my baseline DHT is around 800 units. Its barely within range of the ARSR. When I was taking creatine for two days its bumped my DHT up to 1000 units, well out of range of the ARSR. Thus I began to experience negative effects from DHT since my body could no longer use it at that level. However once I took 200 mg of zinc it brought my DHT back down to 800 units which is the upper threshold of the ARSR and I started to get morning wood again. Well, once I came back into range of the ARSR I began taking 100 mg of zinc every other day. This in turn caused my DHT levels to zig zag up and down in a downwards directions towards the optimal/normal point as well as towards the minimum threshold. While this was happening, my morning wood was intensifying to a very noticeable degree. Much more than what is normal for supplementing zinc (on a daily basis) which i had done in the past. So theoretically speaking, by utilizing the supplementation of zinc in an alternating day scheme, I was able to simultaneously induce variability within the ARSR and eventually at some point I was able to repeatedly "ping" the optimal/normal point. However, since I wasn't exactly aware of the mechanism behind what I was doing, I wasn't able to precisely capitalize and optimize the pinging thus I would sometimes bring my DHT levels so low that they passed the minimum threshold and then I would stop getting morning wood. In my opinion, it is the part where I "pinged" the optimal/normal point which sent a signal to the body and let it know that this was the new DHT/Androgen receptor sensitivity ratio that should be used for homeostasis.

Thus as you can see, there are two concurrent factors working synergistically here. First of all you are using variability to normalize the body's 5AR/DHT levels, and then you are using the pinging action to signal to the body the optimal DHT/androgen receptor sensitivity ratios. I want to add that the intersection of inducing variability within the androgen receptor sensitvity range is also probably extremely helpful as well.

(I also want to add that the math I used in my example is probably not a precise example of what is going on in the body, I just used all those numbers to give a clearer idea of how this mechanism works. So dont get too caught up in the numbers.)

At this point when I stop getting morning wood, I stop using zinc for a few days (3-5 days) and then I start using zinc again after a few days have passed. Obviously what is going on in this stage of the protocol is that I am allowing my 5AR/DHT levels to regenerate back into range of the ARSR, so I begin to get positive effects from DHT again. At this point I start another cycle. Theoretically if I keep doing this it should gradually optimize my 5AR/DHT baselines as well as optimize my DHT/Androgen receptor sensitivity ratio.

So that is the basic rundown of the protocol. Now I want to cover a few other points:

-First of all, what I described above is the basic protocol that you should follow if you have PFS type 2. But what if you have PFS type 1? If you have PFS type 1, then the same protocol as PFS type 2 should work except instead of using 5AR/DHT inhibitors, you will be using 5AR/DHT boosters. So instead of zinc, lets say that you will be using creatine. So as with the previous zinc protocol, you will load X amount of creatine for a couple of days until you get morning wood; at this point you will supplement X amount of creatine every other day until you begin to get some negative side effects from creatine, at this point you will back off for a few days, and then you will start using creatine again after a few days have passed. You will keep doing this until you finally recover. I want to add that the protocol for PFS type 1 is theoretical in nature, I dont know if it will work or not but I believe it should. Even if it doesnt, its not a big deal because you can just overload on 5AR/DHT boosters and purposely make yourself crash so that you become PFS type 2, at which point you can then utilize the zinc protocol instead.

-As I already stated above, but needs definite re-emphasis is that while doing VAPP, you should only be using ONE supplement. The entire VAP protocol relies on listening to your body, and getting cues from it that let you know when you should continue or cease using X supplement. This is much much harder to do when you are constantly raising and lowering your 5AR/DHT levels by using various different supplements or even doing weightlifting. The VAP protocol alone is sufficient to cure you within a month or two; and the whole reason you might be taking different supplements/lifting weights in the first place is to cure/alleviate PFS symptoms. So it wouldn't really make sense to delay your recovery by trying to rely on too many different things at once. Trust me on this one, since Ive started using VAPP ive quit weightlifting and stopped using all supplements besides zinc. VAPP alone actually gets me more benefits than weightlifting and a bunch of supplements combined.

-I don't think that diet, smoking cigarettes, or drinking alcohol really affects the effectiveness of VAPP. While i'm doing this protocol I pretty much eat whatever I want to, smoke cigarettes and drink on the weekends. (like getting really drunk, but I do this every weekend anyways) When it comes to those three things, I think that the only one that you might want to watch out for is drinking alcohol since it does affect your hormone levels. HOWEVER, if you are only drinking large amounts of alcohol on the weekend then I think its effect is negligible. Heavily drinking during the rest of the week however would probably negatively impact the effectiveness of VAPP due to its effect of spiking the hormones.

Here are the basic steps for the protocol summed up:

1. First determine if you are PFS type 1 or PFS type 2

2. If you are already getting morning wood then you can go ahead and start supplementing X supplement every other day. If you are not getting morning wood yet then I recommend that you "load" on X supplement on a daily basis until you begin to get morning wood. Once you begin to get morning wood, then you can start supplementing X supplement every other day.

3. Take X supplement every other day until you stop getting morning wood. At this point stop taking X supplement and wait for 3-5 days so that your body can readjust. Whether or not morning wood reappears on its own appears to be contingent upon how severe your PFS is. Either way it doesn't matter, after 3-5 days your hormone levels should have fallen back into the ARSR so you can begin taking X supplement again every other day in order to restart the cycle of variability and pinging.

4. Repeat step 3 until you are cured.

So basically here is what my protocol looks like for me:

1.I take 100 mg of zinc every other day until I stop getting morning wood. (This usually takes 7-10 days, remember you are taking zinc every other day, do not take zinc on a daily basis)

2.when my morning wood starts to become weak I stop taking zinc and wait 3-5 days until my morning wood starts to come back.

3.When my morning wood starts coming back strong again I repeat step 1.

*After doing one or two cycles, you may notice that 100 mg of zinc every other day is too much. In that case just go down to 50 mg of zinc every other day.

So basically keep doing this until you get healed. So far I am doing this and I am experiencing tons of benefits. I have only been doing this for a few weeks but I am feeling better now than I have in 14 years:

-very intense morning wood (the intensity of the morning wood seems to come from my prostate itself if that makes any sense.)
-slightly increased/new facial hair growth
-slight increase in acne
-tight/toned feeling in prostate
-my erections are a lot more "resilient" now. By that I mean that when I get an erection it is more firm and if I try to push my erection downwards, there is more resistance and less play. So I am not really suffering so badly from PFS induced "floppy boners".
-slightly increased appetite
-very very engaging dreams. I dont get these every night but ever since starting VAPP I occasionally get these intense dreams where even after I wake up I still think im in the dream even though I can clearly see with my eyes that I am in the actual world and not in a dream. Its kind of like this odd blurring between reality and the dreamstate. Does this make any sense?
-dramatically increased flaccid size. I can actually feel my penis resting on either one of my thighs these days, as opposed to it being so small that I dont feel anything when im walking around.
-increased mental cognition/more mental sharpness. I have less trouble writing papers, or communicating in foreign languages + understanding foreign language when it is being spoken to me now. The difference is slight but noticeable.

if you all have any questions feel free to pm me

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On 11/13/2016 at 4:10 AM, ehohel said:

Got my blood test results.

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You're 18 and yet you have the total T of a normal 70 year old. Do you go to the gym? How's your musculature? How easy it it for you to gain muscle or get a decent body composition? I'm 24 and had ~512 total T. I do so, so many things to have good T it's unbelievable to me that it's so low, and god is it hard for me to gain muscle... harder than anyone I've ever known.

Just curious here. I have nothing to offer other than the belief that we're somehow all terribly affected by Accutane and it shows primarily as a male through low T.

I'll refer back to this post I made. I think we ought to look more into T.

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I appreciate everyone's input in bringing info to forum - whether it be info on zinc, increasing testosterone or the benefits of taking LDN - it's all good info!!

On the subject of moisture
though, some of us have had good results from baxyl but has anyone tried "Sea Buckthorn" as a supplement?? I've heard it has great results for bringing moisture back to skin & hair, although this is coming from people who haven't taken roaccutane so it may not work for us in the same way.

I currently use sea buckthorn oil and really like it on my skin but I just wanted to see if anyone has tried it as a supplement and what did they think of it?

His Free T is in the upper range.

On 11/13/2016 at 10:29 AM, Kynarr said:

You're 18 and yet you have the total T of a normal 70 year old. Do you go to the gym? How's your musculature? How easy it it for you to gain muscle or get a decent body composition? I'm 24 and had ~512 total T. I do so, so many things to have good T it's unbelievable to me that it's so low, and god is it hard for me to gain muscle... harder than anyone I've ever known.

Just curious here. I have nothing to offer other than the belief that we're somehow all terribly affected by Accutane and it shows primarily as a male through low T.

I'll refer back to this post I made. I think we ought to look more into T.

[Edited link out]

I used to workout prior to Accutane but I no longer have the drive or get any results if I do now.

On 11/13/2016 at 1:33 PM, Mike San said:

His Free T is in the upper range.

Maybe cause I was creatine loading loading a few days prior to the test? :s

1 hour ago, ehohel said:

I used to workout prior to Accutane but I no longer have the drive or get any results if I do now. Maybe cause I was creatine loading loading a few days prior to the test? :s

That isn't likely.

However, it was more a reply to someone who said your test was very low. Your free T , which is more important, is at a good level.

That said, to get a true hormonal picture, you need a full panel. Just off the top of my head, some missing are Prolactin, Estradiol, LH/FSH, morning cortisol etc.

8 minutes ago, Mike San said:

That isn't likely.

However, it was more a reply to someone who said your test was very low. Your free T , which is more important, is at a good level.

That said, to get a true hormonal picture, you need a full panel. Just off the top of my head, some missing are Prolactin, Estradiol, LH/FSH, morning cortisol etc.

I have estradiol on the bottom, and cortisol up top. (11am)

23 minutes ago, Mike San said:

That isn't likely.

However, it was more a reply to someone who said your test was very low. Your free T , which is more important, is at a good level.

That said, to get a true hormonal picture, you need a full panel. Just off the top of my head, some missing are Prolactin, Estradiol, LH/FSH, morning cortisol etc.

True, his free T isn't as bad as the total, but I guess my point is proven through him no longer reaping the rewards from going to the gym. I don't know how many of us here have had our hormone levels tested, and how many have attempted going to the gym, but I'm stuck believing we're all dealing with this issue one way or another.

I'm currently doing a 4 week Ostarine (MK-2866) 20mg/day trial in an attempt to know what gaining muscle feels like. Took me just about 4 years of having shitty results and blaming myself before I considered, hey, maybe it's not me, maybe it's just my body that's fucked up.

It's weird though. Since taking loads of Calcium D Glucarate and trying Iodine, I've fixed a lot of my digestive issues. No longer do I get the crazy bloating and pain that comes with eating something not totally Paleo. My skin is less dry, eyes less dry, no longer completely crusted and unable to open when I wake up. I finally no longer deal with hypersomnia. I now do fine on 7/8 hours instead of requiring 11/12 hours everyday.

My libido is good, probably mostly through semen retention. I'd echo ARandomPotato to that effect. Semen retention just does something good. Most dudes cum all the time. If I did, I'd have absolutely no will to live, no libido at all.

My main issue left is body composition. If none of this works, next is HRT/TRT.

On 11/13/2016 at 4:10 AM, ehohel said:

Got my blood test results.

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add another to the list of people with copper on the lowest end of the spectrum. i would bet your ceruloplasmin would be low as well. i think there is without a doubt a connection here... it all probably comes down to the ratio of copper to vitamin A in the liver.

ever since you mentioned boron, i have done a lot of reading on it... this is another mineral that fits a lot of our problems.

from raising copper and ceruloplasmin..
"In another experiment Dr. Nielsen studied men over age 45, postmenopausal women and postmenopausal women on estrogen therapy. Again they were fed a low boron diet, this time for 2 months; then supplemented with boron for 7 weeks. Testing showed significantly increased copper binding protein (ceruloplasmin) and plasma copper, as well as increased antioxidant enzyme, superoxide dismutase (which depends on copper for its activity) during the period of boron repletion. The estrogen therapy women showed increased ceruloplasmin and copper--which increased further during boron repletion. Dietary boron led to increased ceruloplasmin, copper, and Superoxide dismutase in the non estrogen groups. Dr. Nielsen proposed that boron also affects cell membrane transport of calcium and thus affects "cell signaling."

boron fights candida.

boron raises testosterone and Vitamin D status.

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its balancing of calcium and magnesium in the body ... pfshealing has a big article on this being important as well. for the fibrosis aspect. http://www.pfshealing.com/

ive been taking 10mg in the morning per day in liquid form.... joint pain has been reduced without question.

i think the people in pain have definite calcium deposits in the joints and on the tendons and ligaments. thius would be the same reason for no feeling in other parts of the body ... high calcium.

Boron is needed for the H in DHT. it contributes hydroxyl groups

On 11/14/2016 at 12:00 AM, Kynarr said:

True, his free T isn't as bad as the total, but I guess my point is proven through him no longer reaping the rewards from going to the gym. I don't know how many of us here have had our hormone levels tested, and how many have attempted going to the gym, but I'm stuck believing we're all dealing with this issue one way or another.

I'm currently doing a 4 week Ostarine (MK-2866) 20mg/day trial in an attempt to know what gaining muscle feels like. Took me just about 4 years of having shitty results and blaming myself before I considered, hey, maybe it's not me, maybe it's just my body that's fucked up.

It's weird though. Since taking loads of Calcium D Glucarate and trying Iodine, I've fixed a lot of my digestive issues. No longer do I get the crazy bloating and pain that comes with eating something not totally Paleo. My skin is less dry, eyes less dry, no longer completely crusted and unable to open when I wake up. I finally no longer deal with hypersomnia. I now do fine on 7/8 hours instead of requiring 11/12 hours everyday.

My libido is good, probably mostly through semen retention. I'd echo ARandomPotato to that effect. Semen retention just does something good. Most dudes cum all the time. If I did, I'd have absolutely no will to live, no libido at all.

My main issue left is body composition. If none of this works, next is HRT/TRT.

[Edited video out]

Kynarr, have you seen this guy before.

On 11/14/2016 at 1:56 AM, tryingtohelp2014 said:

 

add another to the list of people with copper on the lowest end of the spectrum. i would bet your ceruloplasmin would be low as well. i think there is without a doubt a connection here... it all probably comes down to the ratio of copper to vitamin A in the liver.

ever since you mentioned boron, i have done a lot of reading on it... this is another mineral that fits a lot of our problems.

from raising copper and ceruloplasmin..
"In another experiment Dr. Nielsen studied men over age 45, postmenopausal women and postmenopausal women on estrogen therapy. Again they were fed a low boron diet, this time for 2 months; then supplemented with boron for 7 weeks. Testing showed significantly increased copper binding protein (ceruloplasmin) and plasma copper, as well as increased antioxidant enzyme, superoxide dismutase (which depends on copper for its activity) during the period of boron repletion. The estrogen therapy women showed increased ceruloplasmin and copper--which increased further during boron repletion. Dietary boron led to increased ceruloplasmin, copper, and Superoxide dismutase in the non estrogen groups. Dr. Nielsen proposed that boron also affects cell membrane transport of calcium and thus affects "cell signaling."

boron fights candida.

boron raises testosterone and Vitamin D status.

https://www.anabolicmen.com/boron-anti-estrogen-mineral-lower-shbg/

its balancing of calcium and magnesium in the body ... pfshealing has a big article on this being important as well. for the fibrosis aspect. [Edited link out]

ive been taking 10mg in the morning per day in liquid form.... joint pain has been reduced without question.

i think the people in pain have definite calcium deposits in the joints and on the tendons and ligaments. thius would be the same reason for no feeling in other parts of the body ... high calcium.

Boron is needed for the H in DHT. it contributes hydroxyl groups

 

Very interesting post - thank you.

Copper to Vit A levels in liver - why are they out of whack???

Is it due to liver being clogged or is the liver permanently damaged after tane?

thx for info on boron

On 11/13/2016 at 7:51 AM, tanedout said:

Just saw this over on the ATM forum, some guy doing pretty well taking zinc supplements, and putting forward a very interesting theory which I can relate to regards taking certain sups which result in no morning glory for a while, then you stop and it slowly comes back after a time. 

Also very interesting to read the theory of the type 1 and type 2 PFS. Personally based on these categorisations I would be a type 2, as sorghum for example seems to have no real impact, but I get benefits from weed (would rather not touch the stuff, but have tried it and it does result in improvements for a period), and zinc (I eat pumpkin seeds every day and have for a couple of years as I notice if I don't - great source of zinc). My bloods also show my DHT is high (DHT = 4.1 nmol/L (range 0.9 - 2.90)
 

[Edited link out]

hey guys, its skorpio88 from the ATM forum, if you all have any questions about the protocol feel free to ask. I was going to post this the other day but tanedout beat me to it 

Its true that this protocol is still experimental but I think the theories are basically sound. Anyways Im hoping that some of the guys here will experiment with this and post their feedback.

*mods, sorry if this is a repost. I tried posting this once but it didnt appear for some reason.

I think the reason boron helps is because it is an inducer of 5-alpha reductase. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21129941 . Also, to whoever said they were eating pumpkin seeds, those are known to be 5AR inhibitors, like accutane.

Also, just checking in. I have been using a lot of the protocols found on propeciahelp because I am still convinced this is primarily a DHT issue. Unfortunately, however, -- i foudn this study, have you guys seen this? [Edited link out]
Does not look good.

1 hour ago, fenix827 said:

hey guys, its skorpio88 from the ATM forum, if you all have any questions about the protocol feel free to ask. I was going to post this the other day but tanedout beat me to it 

Its true that this protocol is still experimental but I think the theories are basically sound. Anyways Im hoping that some of the guys here will experiment with this and post their feedback.

*mods, sorry if this is a repost. I tried posting this once but it didnt appear for some reason.

Other than taking Zinc, what else is involved?

1 hour ago, TrueJustice said:

Other than taking Zinc, what else is involved?

nothing else. Just zinc and time. The only reason this protocol is different from simply taking zinc is that you are taking zinc on an alternating day basis as opposed to taking zinc on a daily basis. I know this sounds overly simplistic, but it actually makes all the difference. Of course the actual protocol itself is slightly more complicated, but thats the basic gist of it.

On 11/14/2016 at 11:41 AM, Weltschmerz47 said:

I am still convinced this is primarily a DHT issue. Unfortunately, however, -- i found this study, have you guys seen this? [Edited link out]
Does not look good.

This study just reiterates my feelings towards a neurological imbalance after Accutane. I know its chemical. I lived for 20 years up until Accutane. I remember what life used to feel like.

I am still trying to seek as to why I no longer feel the "build up" or "sensation" of lactic acid in my muscles after exertion. I am still trying to seek as to why our muscles are unable to grow if our hormone levels are reading within the normal results. But, these are the very least of my problems. They are merely clues as to where and what went wrong.

Bottom line, we have a lot going on with us. Multiple systems affected. I value most everyone's input here, however I feel on the same page with only a few. It is unlikely to me that a mineral or nutrient imbalance is the complete 'cause'. Or a digestive 'cause'. Or a bacterial 'cause'. It's just not likely. I would still advocate a complete dietary changes for those with affected digestive systems. I am now a vegetarian and I DO yield the benefits of this diet, or rather what I can yield from it (that I can feel) which isn't much due to the desensitization of my neurological systems. I would advocate supplementation of minerals or whatever if something in your blood work suggests so, or else I think if any "benefits" you may or may not see will be just temporary. Look, you're gonna get a complete nutrient profile from a healthy diet as long as your pancreas functions even a little and intestines unless you have significant digestion problems which then you or a doctor would see through tests and address with enzymes or procedures.

I've done the 'no fap regime' for almost a complete year while I was incarcerated. In fact, I did nothing except eat, sleep, read, and exercise for months on end. Yes, you'll see your erection is fuller. You'll feel the positives of exercise and sleep (if you can feel anything). But it's just a temporary band aid. My acne never came back. Every joint will still crack and creak. I'm still night blind. Still have intracranial pressure. Depression remains. You'll sit there and have to constantly re-read pages of a book you just read a minute ago.

If you were to ask me to bet my bottom dollar, I'd say the retinoid toxicity was sporadic. Whatever glands we had in our bodies producing the oil that caused our moderate acne also kept key systems functioning properly were affected, seemingly permanently. And our problem lies in the chemistry, and that is what we should be focused on.

On 11/14/2016 at 11:41 AM, Weltschmerz47 said:

I think the reason boron helps is because it is an inducer of 5-alpha reductase. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21129941 . Also, to whoever said they were eating pumpkin seeds, those are known to be 5AR inhibitors, like accutane.

Not necessarily just like Accutane. Lots of substances are 5-Alpha Reductase Inhibitors, including Zinc and Riboflavin (B2). The question is how broad a given substance's 5-Alpha Reductase Inhibition actually is. There is a reasonFinasteride can treat hair loss and other 5ARI substances cannot. What exact enzymes are inhibited and and to what extent? I won't pretend to be an expert, but I don't think it's a good idea to start avoiding any and all foods with the slightest 5ARI activity. Besides, people have taken DHT promoting hormones and have failed to see any lasting benefits, so who's to say avoiding all 5ARI foods would help? This brings me to my next point. . .

On 11/14/2016 at 11:41 AM, Weltschmerz47 said:

Unfortunately, however, -- i foudn this study, have you guys seen this? [Edited link out]

Discouraging. But Accutane has many unique mechanisms of action that could have contributed to persistent side effects: Inhibition of telomerase enzyme, apoptotic effects on several cellular systems, promotion of epigenetic changes, microbiome disturbances, erosion of intestinal lining, altered bloodflow to orbitofrontal cortex, and possible organic brain damage (according to a Norwegian report). Taking all of this into account, Finasteride and Accutane have very real differences.

If I've learned one thing in spending all my time here, it's that you should NEVER stay married to one theory/angle in this persistent side effect mess. I used to be obsessed with the telomere shortening properties of Accutane, but I've learned 1,000 other things could have went wrong as well. Between any two of us, we could have been affected by different mechanisms of this drug!

Boron and retinoic acid study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17259120

so from another site:

Boron is distributed throughout the body with the highest concentration in the parathyroid glands, followed by bones and dental enamel. It is essential for healthy bone and joint function, regulating the absorption and metabolism of calcium, magnesium and phosphorus through its influence on the parathyroid glands. With this boron is for theparathyroidswhat iodine is for the thyroid.
Boron deficiency causes theparathyroidsto become overactive, releasing too much parathyroid hormone which raises the blood level of calcium by releasing calcium from bones and teeth. This then leads to osteoarthritis and other forms of arthritis, osteoporosis and tooth decay. With advancing age high blood levels of calcium lead to calcification of soft tissues causing muscle contractions and stiffness; calcification of endocrine glands, especially the pineal gland and the ovaries; arteriosclerosis, kidney stones, and calcification of the kidneys ultimately leading to kidney failure. Boron deficiency combined with magnesium deficiency is especially damaging to the bones and teeth.
Boron affects the metabolism of steroid hormones, and especially of sex hormones. It increases low testosterone levels in men and oestrogen levels in menopausal women. It also has a role in converting vitamin D to its active form, thus increasing calcium uptake and deposition into bone and teeth rather than causing soft tissue to calcify. Also other beneficial effects have been reported such as improvement of heart problems, vision, psoriasis, balance, memory and cognitioin.

2 hours ago, tryingtohelp2014 said:

Boron and retinoic acid study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17259120

so from another site:

Boron is distributed throughout the body with the highest concentration in the parathyroid glands, followed by bones and dental enamel. It is essential for healthy bone and joint function, regulating the absorption and metabolism of calcium, magnesium and phosphorus through its influence on the parathyroid glands. With this boron is for theparathyroidswhat iodine is for the thyroid.
Boron deficiency causes theparathyroidsto become overactive, releasing too much parathyroid hormone which raises the blood level of calcium by releasing calcium from bones and teeth. This then leads to osteoarthritis and other forms of arthritis, osteoporosis and tooth decay. With advancing age high blood levels of calcium lead to calcification of soft tissues causing muscle contractions and stiffness; calcification of endocrine glands, especially the pineal gland and the ovaries; arteriosclerosis, kidney stones, and calcification of the kidneys ultimately leading to kidney failure. Boron deficiency combined with magnesium deficiency is especially damaging to the bones and teeth.
Boron affects the metabolism of steroid hormones, and especially of sex hormones. It increases low testosterone levels in men and oestrogen levels in menopausal women. It also has a role in converting vitamin D to its active form, thus increasing calcium uptake and deposition into bone and teeth rather than causing soft tissue to calcify. Also other beneficial effects have been reported such as improvement of heart problems, vision, psoriasis, balance, memory and cognitioin.

Boron looks very interesting indeed. A quick google search shows that it also helps in detoxifying from Fluoride in the same was that Iodine does. I'm all about supplements that claim to detoxify and help hormone levels. I haven't been able to find a significant food source even in a paleo diet, except for almonds and avocados, and even that is not as much as what supplements offer.

One more supplement to try.

For those who look into 5-ARI as a main culprit, I suggest you read into SARMs.