Acne.org Products
I wrote here before. I just can't believe how many pages this topic has.
I didn't take Accutane, but long term antibiotics messed up me just like you guys. Of course stomach problems(pain all the time) teeth and gums problem(pain all the time), fatigue, depression. Although depression may be from all the other stuff
99% of time I concetrating on myself because I wanted to get back my life, but it's 5 years already so I think that I'm just as good as dead. But I just can't believe what dermatologists are doing. Just think how many accutane and antibiotics for acne they prescribe. Some people will get serious side effects, many will not get serious side effects but have just not so good health or side effects will come later so some people don't know that they ave for example crohnm because years before they had antibiotics and accutane rounds and rounds.
It's just sick. Those "doctors" are killing so many young people. Maybe not killing in physical sense but they kill their health and future.
Sorry for grammar and typos. I don't speak english well and I am drunk because I considered suicide today and alkohol is one thing tat helps me ward off those thoughts. They take away my health, mind, and future. And for what ? Just a little money? It's just plain sick
Umas, look at the links in my forum signature. They'll help you.
Copper is greatly needed by the immune system and ascorbic acid depletes copper.
Copper and Immune Function
"It has been well documented that adequate copper status is essential for normal functioning of the immune system in laboratory and domestic animals.http://www.oralchelation.com/technical/copper1.htm#47%234 7" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;text-decoration:none" rel="external nofollow">47For instance, not only has it been shown that the functioning of macrophages decreased in severely copper deficient rats, but even marginally copper-deficient rats had impaired immune functioning.http://www.oralchelation.com/technical/copper1.htm#48%234 8" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;text-decoration:none" rel="external nofollow">48Interestingly, immune function was significantly impaired at dietary copper levels that didn't seem to decrease tissue copper or the activity of red blood cell Cu-superoxide dismutase (SOD).http://www.oralchelation.com/technical/copper1.htm#49%234 9" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;text-decoration:none" rel="external nofollow">49However, neutrophil SOD-activity and neutrophil function was significantly diminished, suggesting that immune function may be more sensitive to diets low in copper than standard measures of copper status. It was also found that immune impairment could be detected as soon as one week after the initiation of a diet low or marginal in copper, and the addition of adequate copper reversed the immune suppression within one week of supplementation. The authors concluded that, "...the adverse effects of inadequate copper intake on neutrophil activity occur rapidly and are readily reversed by dietary copper repletion." Additionally, it has been demonstrated that copper deficiency reversibly impairsDNAsynthesis in activated T-cells by limiting interleukin 2 activity up to 50%, and this was reversible with copper supplementation.http://www.oralchelation.com/technical/copper1.htm#50%235 0" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;text-decoration:none" rel="external nofollow">50Because of this sensitivity to copper status at levels of intake that have little effect on other indicators of copper status, immune system cells have been suggested to be a readily accessible and copper-status sensitive population of cells for the assessment of copper status.http://www.oralchelation.com/technical/copper1.htm#51%235 1" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;text-decoration:none" rel="external nofollow">51"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6837490
I was supplementing with ascorbic acid heavily over the past 3 years. THIS is why my copper blood markers got worse.
I was taking at least a gram of synthetic vitamin C per day.
I will now only use food-based vit C (like from Rose hip which is very high in copper).
bobby - pm me! I haven't had time to read through all your posts or hx, just pm me!
2 hours ago, Umas said:I wrote here before. I just can't believe how many pages this topic has.
I didn't take Accutane, but long term antibiotics messed up me just like you guys. Of course stomach problems(pain all the time) teeth and gums problem(pain all the time), fatigue, depression. Although depression may be from all the other stuff
99% of time I concetrating on myself because I wanted to get back my life, but it's 5 years already so I think that I'm just as good as dead. But I just can't believe what dermatologists are doing. Just think how many accutane and antibiotics for acne they prescribe. Some people will get serious side effects, many will not get serious side effects but have just not so good health or side effects will come later so some people don't know that they ave for example crohnm because years before they had antibiotics and accutane rounds and rounds.
It's just sick. Those "doctors" are killing so many young people. Maybe not killing in physical sense but they kill their health and future.
Sorry for grammar and typos. I don't speak english well and I am drunk because I considered suicide today and alkohol is one thing tat helps me ward off those thoughts. They take away my health, mind, and future. And for what ? Just a little money? It's just plain sick
Umas- I hope you haven't done anything stupid! please pm me...I know you haven't taken Accutane, but know many life altered by toxic antibiotics!
6 hours ago, marlin15 said:7 hours ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:marlin15,
Appreciate the constructive response.Unlike you, I'm actually trying to uncover why we're all messed up. I'm not sure if copper is a part of this but there's definitely some imbalance in all of us when it comes to certain minerals. It could be that I've had copper dysregulation as a young child and accutane just amplified it ten-fold.
It's funny you quote Schopenhauer as he is a man who possesses realist views on math and science, something that is severely lacking in this thread for the past 3 years, and is only hindered by the bullshit quackery of "field control therapy" and everything else you propose. Schopenhauer would have a nice laugh at that.
Marlin, to be honest I haven't read through your posts or story...but I am curious as for you degraded those who are trying to help themselves and some have been successful...could you please tell me what you have done, suffer from and have cured?????
I'm the only one men becomeeunuch with no sexual function and no muscles growth??
stop speak ofstupid and insignificant effects of accutane, I took accutane more than others in the world, 5 cycles x 6 months, I have no lack of vitamins or other substance, the stomach functions , the stomach and liver are perfect,it's time to talk about serious effects...we are fucked in the cell and brain
If your cock works go out this topic and have sex, you are not fucked! stop read this papyrus of bullshit...
who are all the guys with sexual sides that wrote many years ago?lost hope clearly
did this copper thing a try for u, since i have become very sensitive to the feeling inside my body. 2minutes after taking it, very strong urge to vomit, never felt something like that, but unable to. after that felt like being strongly poisoned at the neurological/nervous level, and strong stimulating effect on the adrenals (logic since they control the homeostasis of minerals, liver too) (more stimulating that anything i've tried yet, even more than high dose dhea or steroids, to say how toxic it is).
so like i was already sure of, copper is shit, stupid idea brought by stupid people who still don't understand anything and looks for a magic pill, who will encourage others to be poisoned.
and by the way, most of your libido issue, are adrenal related, mostly, but ofc also a general glandular weakness (starting with pituitary), and ending with testis & prostateofc. Took me a lot of detox & glandular use to "reboot" them. I'm100% sure since some time that themost affected gland by accutane is the pituitary & hypothalamus.
I personally did even if it was mercury related, a chelation of mercury (had 6 big amalgam removed without safety), with DMSA, EDTA, & others for a long time, took tons of it, and it removes copper, and i never took any copper supplement after that, but i took "lot" of zinc. So i did the exact opposite of what you think is good, and i'm fine now, i consider myself cured, even if it took me 5 years and did lot of different thing.
so be aware of this copper theory, copper is the only mineral that has this strong poisonous effect (i tried them all), better not try to replicate mother nature, supplement in general arent in a form compatible with the human body, we are meant to eat plant, we cannot use raw minerals like they do.
Your bodies are half dead, so congested, specially at the intestinal & liver lymphatic walls that you cannot absorb, or assimilate anything, or use anything (adrenals & liver), your bodies suffocate from the inside, from all that toxicity/congestion because of that excretory system weakness caused by accutane, but somehow you think taking more isolated thing is a solution, hoping that some percent of it will be assimilated, reach the cells and doing an effect, instead of thinking of clearing your body, that it can absorb nutrients naturally from food.. your path leads nowhere.
EDIT: Just found this ( ) about metals toxicity & minerals affiliation, "copperloveskidneys", like "iodine loves thyroid". and yea that's exactly what i feel, strong adrenal stimulation & kidney "burn"/tense feeling.
http://www.nadis.org.uk/bulletins/copper-poisoning-in-sheep.aspx
So yea, taking copper for feeling better is like people 2 centuries ago who was taking mercury for kidney "detox", just to die 10years after.
1 hour ago, anonyy said:did this copper thing a try for u, since i have become very sensitive to the feeling inside my body. 2minutes after taking it, very strong urge to vomit, never felt something like that, but unable to. after that felt like being strongly poisoned at the neurological/nervous level, and strong stimulating effect on the adrenals (logic since they control the homeostasis of minerals, liver too) (more stimulating that anything i've tried yet, even more than high dose dhea or steroids, to say how toxic it is).
so like i was already sure of, copper is shit, stupid idea brought by stupid people who still don't understand anything and looks for a magic pill, who will encourage others to be poisoned.
and by the way, most of your libido issue, are adrenal related, mostly, but ofc also a general glandular weakness (starting with pituitary), and ending with testis & prostateofc. Took me a lot of detox & glandular use to "reboot" them. I'm100% sure since some time that themost affected gland by accutane is the pituitary & hypothalamus.I personally did even if it was mercury related, a chelation of mercury (had 6 big amalgam removed without safety), with DMSA, EDTA, & others for a long time, took tons of it, and it removes copper, and i never took any copper supplement after that, but i took "lot" of zinc. So i did the exact opposite of what you think is good, and i'm fine now, i consider myself cured, even if it took me 5 years and did lot of different thing.
so be aware of this copper theory, copper is the only mineral that has this strong poisonous effect (i tried them all), better not try to replicate mother nature, supplement in general arent in a form compatible with the human body, we are meant to eat plant, we cannot use raw minerals like they do.
Your bodies are half dead, so congested, specially at the intestinal & liver lymphatic walls that you cannot absorb, or assimilate anything, or use anything (adrenals & liver), your bodies suffocate from the inside, from all that toxicity/congestion because of that excretory system weakness caused by accutane, but somehow you think taking more isolated thing is a solution, hoping that some percent of it will be assimilated, reach the cells and doing an effect, instead of thinking of clearing your body, that it can absorb nutrients naturally from food.. your path leads nowhere.
EDIT: Just found this ( ) about metals toxicity & minerals affiliation, "copperloveskidneys", like "iodine loves thyroid". and yea that's exactly what i feel, strong adrenal stimulation & kidney "burn"/tense feeling.
http://www.nadis.org.uk/bulletins/copper-poisoning-in-sheep.aspx
So yea, taking copper for feeling better is like people 2 centuries ago who was taking mercury for kidney "detox", just to die 10years after.
yes, i'm hald dead, my body function are slowered,what to do for pituitary gland?
Start detoxing, maybe liver flush in priority & then the whole body, with herbs (& ofc hypotoxic diet). For pituitary & glands in general, glandular's extracts are the most effective, i found accutane isotherapy effective too but far too soon to do it, you need to be far ahead of your detox, if not it will make things worse.
I did so many things, hard to tell what's the best chronology of methods.. maybe look at my second last post, page 373i believe. I believe restoring the homeostasis of vitamin A, D & K is also very important, but very hard to do with a weak liver, and can do the opposite also. It's a long path to recovery...
29 minutes ago, Ruvik said:1 hour ago, anonyy said:did this copper thing a try for u, since i have become very sensitive to the feeling inside my body. 2minutes after taking it, very strong urge to vomit, never felt something like that, but unable to. after that felt like being strongly poisoned at the neurological/nervous level, and strong stimulating effect on the adrenals (logic since they control the homeostasis of minerals, liver too) (more stimulating that anything i've tried yet, even more than high dose dhea or steroids, to say how toxic it is).
so like i was already sure of, copper is shit, stupid idea brought by stupid people who still don't understand anything and looks for a magic pill, who will encourage others to be poisoned.
and by the way, most of your libido issue, are adrenal related, mostly, but ofc also a general glandular weakness (starting with pituitary), and ending with testis & prostateofc. Took me a lot of detox & glandular use to "reboot" them. I'm100% sure since some time that themost affected gland by accutane is the pituitary & hypothalamus.I personally did even if it was mercury related, a chelation of mercury (had 6 big amalgam removed without safety), with DMSA, EDTA, & others for a long time, took tons of it, and it removes copper, and i never took any copper supplement after that, but i took "lot" of zinc. So i did the exact opposite of what you think is good, and i'm fine now, i consider myself cured, even if it took me 5 years and did lot of different thing.
so be aware of this copper theory, copper is the only mineral that has this strong poisonous effect (i tried them all), better not try to replicate mother nature, supplement in general arent in a form compatible with the human body, we are meant to eat plant, we cannot use raw minerals like they do.
Your bodies are half dead, so congested, specially at the intestinal & liver lymphatic walls that you cannot absorb, or assimilate anything, or use anything (adrenals & liver), your bodies suffocate from the inside, from all that toxicity/congestion because of that excretory system weakness caused by accutane, but somehow you think taking more isolated thing is a solution, hoping that some percent of it will be assimilated, reach the cells and doing an effect, instead of thinking of clearing your body, that it can absorb nutrients naturally from food.. your path leads nowhere.
EDIT: Just found this ( ) about metals toxicity & minerals affiliation, "copperloveskidneys", like "iodine loves thyroid". and yea that's exactly what i feel, strong adrenal stimulation & kidney "burn"/tense feeling.
http://www.nadis.org.uk/bulletins/copper-poisoning-in-sheep.aspx
So yea, taking copper for feeling better is like people 2 centuries ago who was taking mercury for kidney "detox", just to die 10years after.yes, i'm hald dead, my body function are slowered,what to do for pituitary gland?
Yes exactly - was about to ask that question myself!!??
This light sensitivity is the one thing I'd like to know how to combat?
What is the best thing for pituitary and hypothalamus??
Was hoping that Calcium D Glucarate would do something as its known to lower estrogen from memory but again nothing happened.
Amazing how quickly Accutane fucked me up ( literally overnight ) and yet never been able to find one supplement that can restore my health.
I know I'm kinda coming out of no where, but for those interested in further "decongesting" their liver, Agrimony is a good herbal supplement to take for that. I realize that it's really off topic from what most people are talking about now, but I noticed that it has never been mentioned in this forum before. I wouldn't want to withhold anything that could possibly help someone else, and I know this has definitely helped me, hence my sharing.
I take it as a tea every day, and since I've started doing that I have noticed a pretty huge improvement in side effects (mainly dry mouth, low sex drive, and strange heart palpitations since taking Accutane). The side effect that it has helped the most with definitely though is the dry mouth. My saliva has gone from super foamy and low in quantity back to having a normal, fluid consistency almost normal in quantity I'd say.I've been drinking the tea for about 3 months now and have no plans on stopping. It isn't very well known, but if interested, the brand i use is:
https://www.amazon.com/Moon-Magick-Agrimony-Raw-Herb/dp/B00JXSBTIC/
Also, I have one question. Since stopping Accutane, I have had nearly nonexistent morning erections (obviously not good); however, as of this past month, I have noticed that they have been slightly coming back, but they are extremely inconsistent. Could this be a sign that things are slowly returning to normal in regards to my hormones? Or is it too soon to tell because of how inconsistent they are? I also notice that they seem to be more consistent when I haven't been in a depressed mood for awhile. This leads me to another question, can depression lead to a suppression in the production of hormones related to this? Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
Alcohol reduces various Biomarkers of inflammation. Alot of us are dealing with chronic inflammation
12 hours ago, Ruvik said:I'm the only one men becomeeunuch with no sexual function and no muscles growth??
stop speak ofstupid and insignificant effects of accutane, I took accutane more than others in the world, 5 cycles x 6 months, I have no lack of vitamins or other substance, the stomach functions , the stomach and liver are perfect,it's time to talk about serious effects...we are fucked in the cell and brain
If your cock works go out this topic and have sex, you are not fucked! stop read this papyrus of bullshit...
who are all the guys with sexual sides that wrote many years ago?lost hope clearly
A couple of them committed suicide and most of the others I am in contact with realized there is currently no reliable way out and are just moving on with their lives as best they can, given their situation.
Maybe this just isn't a healthy discussion thread for people with sexual and mental side effects.
This thread is ridiculous...
you have guys chelating copper out with severely low white blood cell counts??? I would stop that before you give yourself an aneurysm btw
Bobbydigital 10.7 (11-22)L .14(.15-.60)L .13(.24-.94umol/d)L
.......................................serum ............................................................................ceruloplasmin ...........24hr Urine
how on earth do you come to the conclusion you are copper toxic? your 24 urine is even below normal!
you have another guy saying copper affected him more than anything hes tried? wait, didnt you cure yourself years ago? why would you even try copper? and then comparing copper to lead??! yeah ok... lead isnt used for anything in the body... and copper is used for almost everything. plus, how is that even possible if copper is totally unrelated? its more likely you took the one thing that IS related, and is actually pushing stuff into the bloodstream making you feel terrible.
the theory is what? its one of the few things actually proven from accutane.
let me ask all of you a question... if the goal of somebody returning with bloodtests as "copper toxic", is to raise ceruloplasmin, in order to grab copper and make it bioavailable again... what exactly does accutane do? oh right...accutane raises ceruloplasmin 4x the normal amount. so guess what... if anyone currently taking accutane was to get a blood test (assuming they still have any copper left) it would come back with very little unbound copper.
from yetanother:
Copper repletion
"The fact that 35 days of copper repletion with slightly more than the RDI of copperdidntrestorecytochromecoxidaseactivity to pre-depletion levels is troublesome. This activitydidntdrop significantly until after 8 weeks of depletion, and then dropped markedly over the next five weeks.Apparently five weeks of almost 2.6 milligrams of copper dailydoesntprovide enough excess copper beyond thebodysactual requirement to significantly replete copper stores."
In the case of erythrocytesuperoxidedismutase, a decline in its activity was observed during copper depletion. During the period of copper repletion its activity failed to recover to pre-depletion levels. This lack of recovery of erythrocytesuperoxidedismutaseactivity, coupled with the decrease incytochromecoxidaseactivity, adds evidence to the belief that current copper recommendations for humans may be understated. The researchers write that,Itis likely that the response of these enzymes to copper repletion after copper depletion is influenced by the amount of copper fed, the duration of depletion and repletion, and the rates of cell turnover. They then provide evidence from other studies in whichsuperoxidedismutaseactivities were lowered during copper deprivation.Recoveries of activity were documented when either 3 mg or 4.3-6.4 mg copper per day was fed for greater than 30 days, but not when less than 2.6 mg per day was fed for periods of up to 42 days
Yes i'm cured, of the most handicaping side effects (extreme fatigue, mental, & libido), but some issue still persist, even if minor.
I tried it because i believe i developed a high sense of things that affect the body, i wanted to try it from curiosity,and i can tell you, copper is the worst thing i ever tried, the worst poison. It isn't moving anything, it's just intoxicating the adrenals and giving an artificial stimulating effect. And yes, i compare it to mercury, because it's poisonous too, copper the body need, is not in the supplement rock-made form, those are far too toxic and not physiologic, for sure. Never had any issue with zinc or magnesium supplement, but that copper, my body immediately started a throw up uncontrollablereflex & shock reaction, never had anything like it (also had pretty low blood pressure). If you want stimulation, why you don't take heroin, speed or cocain? same thing/ideology you are pursuing.
And to be honest, accutane and vitamin Ais 10times more related to zinc (and maybe magnesium), than copper. Ofc you'll find some relation with copper, as any other minerals, since everything is connected in the body, but believing it will make you fell better, is a false belief.
The fact that 4 years after you still looking for a magic mineral, or a magic cure, external, proove that you still don't understand anything about the human body, but still you encourage others to do stupid things that will damage them even more.
4 years ago it was magic vitamin B in the coenzymated form you was pursuing, now copper? then what?
So,you will replete copper? (if in fact you don'tdo the opposite, except if taking it from real food), and then what? since all minerals works in synergy, the simple fact that you only take isolated copper supplement, will unbalance other minerals. The body lack nothing, there is too much of, and too much weakness. The body is a living thing, there is cells and organs in it, they use nutrients & minerals, not the opposite, the minerals doesn't use the cells, you can take as much as you want, doesn't mean the body will absorb and use them. If the body is congested (specially the liver & adrenals), you can take as much stupid rock made minerals as you want, your cells will still be intoxicated and even if you lack nothing, it will still be ill, and will not absorb or use anything you throw him. The only thing you can lack, is vitamin A, D & K, the rest is pure speculation.
And from what i'm seeing, most problem are from excesscopper, not lacking of it (and don't tell me it's only in the oxydized form, because you are taking supplement rock made form of it, who will end up the same in the body).
http://nutritionalbalancing.org/center/htma/science/articles/copper-toxicity.php
http://www.westonaprice.org/modern-diseases/copper-zinc-imbalance-unrecognized-consequence-of-plant-based-diets-and-a-contributor-to-chronic-fatigue/
http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/copper elimination.htm
The body has a nutrient system (blood), and a detox system (lymph), guess where the problem is? both, but if you want to get better, focus on detox, because without that, cells won't be able to replicate in a sane environment, and same issue will persists, indefinitely. I always believed that accutane can't be stored, but i'm starting to doubt about that, there certainly is things we don't know yet about those vitamins, who are more like hormones (and we don't know a lot about the lymphatic system (who dealswith vitamin A too), they didn't even knew it existed in the brain until recently). Like they say, if fasting can't regenerate you, nothing will. But ofc in our case, we must start with powerful things like liver flush. Fasting doesn't mean doing a 3days fast 3 times, it takes times, months even years of perseverance, personaly i didn't even needed to do themto cure my side effects, but for sure i'll need to do themto fix the remaining issues.
https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regeneration-of-damaged-old-immune-system/
https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/story/3584/scientists-discover-previously-unknown-cleansing-system-in-brain.aspx
(every real naturopath already knew it existed long before modern "medicine" / "science", like dr morse for exemple)
bobby digital took a copper chelator then again measured urine copper output over the course of 24hrs and it came back high. ( and yes they account for the fact that levels are going to be higher in general on the chelator) This is textbook stuff that real doctors use in diagnosing copper toxicity from various means (ie excess copper exposure from drinking water, copper dust from a working environment and wilsons disease. normally they give you a couple doses ofpenicillamine and then measure 24 hr urine output of copper. to be clear, this is where every single piss you take goes into a jug for a 24 hr period. Real copper toxicity once diagnosed and treated, you can have at least 1 month of feeling worse, 2 to 3 months before you start to feel better,and 3 to 6 months before copper comes down to an acceptable level through constant monitoring. Granted this is through use of powerful drugs to chelate copper, nothing that is available otc.
12 hours ago, guitarman01 said:bobby digital took a copper chelator then again measured urine copper output over the course of 24hrs and it came back high. ( and yes they account for the fact that levels are going to be higher in general on the chelator) This is textbook stuff that real doctors use in diagnosing copper toxicity from various means (ie excess copper exposure from drinking water, copper dust from a working environment and wilsons disease. normally they give you a couple doses ofpenicillamine and then measure 24 hr urine output of copper. to be clear, this is where every single piss you take goes into a jug for a 24 hr period. Real copper toxicity once diagnosed and treated, you can have at least 1 month of feeling worse, 2 to 3 months before you start to feel better,and 3 to 6 months before copper comes down to an acceptable level through constant monitoring. Granted this is through use of powerful drugs to chelate copper, nothing that is available otc.
reading is a skill. its only the second result that comes up. but keep trying to chelate out that copper bobby... you might be the first person in history to have self induced AIDS if you keep dropping those white blood cell counts.
Urine mobilization test, challenge test, and provoked urine test are all terms used to describe the administration of a chelating agent to a person prior to collection of their urine to test for metals. There is no standard, validated challenge test. Despite recommendations by professional and government organizations against the use of provoked urine testing, the tests are still commonly used and recommended by some practitioners. Challenge testing utilizes a variety of chelating agents, including dimercaptosuccinic acid (DMSA), dimercaptopropanesulfonate (DMPS), and ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA). The agents are given by a variety of routes of administration, doses used are inconsistent, and urine collection procedures vary. Additional problems with challenge tests include comparison of results to inappropriate reference ranges and creatinine correction of urine obtained within hours of chelator administration. Human volunteer studies demonstrate that mercury is detected in the urine of most people even in the absence of known exposure or chelator administration, and that urinary mercury excretion rises after administration of a chelator, regardless of exposure history and in an unpredictable fashion. Studies also demonstrate that challenge testing fails to reveal a body burden of mercury due to remote exposure. Chelating agents have been associated with adverse reactions. Current evidence does not support the use of DMPS, DMSA, or other chelation challenge tests for the diagnosis of metal toxicity. Since there are no established reference ranges for provoked urine samples in healthy subjects, no reliable evidence to support a diagnostic value for the tests, and potential harm, these tests should not be utilized.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3846974/
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/urine_toxic.html
Practitioners who use the urine toxic metals test typically tell patients that provocation is needed to discover "hidden body stores" of mercury or lead, which they also refer to as "body burden" or "mercury efflux disorder." However, the above experiment proved that provocation raises urine levels as much in exposed workers as in unexposed control subjects and that rise is temporary, should be expected, and is not evidence of "hidden stores." The scientific community does not recognize "mercury efflux disorder" as a diagnosis or even as a theoretical possibility.
Again... im going to make this as simple as possible, so even a 3yr old could understand. if bobbys liver was "full" of copper... his "unprovoked" 24 hr urine test would be HIGH.
Bobbydigital 10.7 (11-22)L .14(.15-.60)L .13(.24-.94umol/d)L
.......................................serum ............................................................................ceruloplasmin ...........24hr Urine
From Matysek, another poster with severely low white neutrophil counts.:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2175782
These results show that neutrophil function is reversibly impaired by marginal and severe Cu deficiency and suggest that the Cu status and function of these cells may provide a sensitive indicator for assessment of Cu status.
1 hour ago, tryingtohelp2014 said:reading is a skill. its only the second result that comes up. but keep trying to chelate out that copper bobby... you might be the first person in history to have self induced AIDS if you keep dropping those white blood cell counts.Urine mobilization test, challenge test, and provoked urine test are all terms used to describe the administration of a chelating agent to a person prior to collection of their urine to test for metals. There is no standard, validated challenge test. Despite recommendations by professional and government organizations against the use of provoked urine testing, the tests are still commonly used and recommended by some practitioners. Challenge testing utilizes a variety of chelating agents, including dimercaptosuccinic acid (DMSA), dimercaptopropanesulfonate (DMPS), and ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA). The agents are given by a variety of routes of administration, doses used are inconsistent, and urine collection procedures vary. Additional problems with challenge tests include comparison of results to inappropriate reference ranges and creatinine correction of urine obtained within hours of chelator administration. Human volunteer studies demonstrate that mercury is detected in the urine of most people even in the absence of known exposure or chelator administration, and that urinary mercury excretion rises after administration of a chelator, regardless of exposure history and in an unpredictable fashion. Studies also demonstrate that challenge testing fails to reveal a body burden of mercury due to remote exposure. Chelating agents have been associated with adverse reactions. Current evidence does not support the use of DMPS, DMSA, or other chelation challenge tests for the diagnosis of metal toxicity. Since there are no established reference ranges for provoked urine samples in healthy subjects, no reliable evidence to support a diagnostic value for the tests, and potential harm, these tests should not be utilized.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3846974/
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/urine_toxic.html
Again... im going to make this as simple as possible, so even a 3yr old could understand. if bobbys liver was "full" of copper... his "unprovoked" 24 hr urine test would be HIGH.
Bobbydigital 10.7 (11-22)L .14(.15-.60)L .13(.24-.94umol/d)L
.......................................serum ............................................................................ceruloplasmin ...........24hr Urine
Ok so after all is said and done which Copper supplement should one take?
And without the all important Liver/Gallbladder working properly what would be the good of supplementing Copper anyway??
Im not against it, it's just that I'm very aware of how overburdened our bodies are post accutane - isn't that the most important thing we should be working on, detoxifying for the next 20 years???
its all getting way too complicated!!
You need to make your glands and organs working (with real detox), any mineral you will take won't be absorbed, nor assimilated and transformed in a biocompatible/utilizable form without working liver and adrenals, you'll use 5% of the mineral supplement you take, and the rest will add useless burden and toxicity to the body. If you supplement from a raw living food, it's an other story.
Anyway this forum is a living proof, anyone who focused on looking for a magic mineral or magic vitamin, never got better, only those who focused on detox cleared themselves or their issue, no need to look further. You don't even need that, you just need to understand basicphysiology.
34 minutes ago, anonyy said:You need to make your glands and organs working (with real detox), any mineral you will take won't be absorbed, nor assimilated and transformed in a biocompatible/utilizable form without working liver and adrenals, you'll use 5% of the mineral supplement you take, and the rest will add useless burden and toxicity to the body. If you supplement from a raw living food, it's an other story.
Anyway this forum is a living proof, anyone who focused on looking for a magic mineral or magic vitamin, never got better, only those who focused on detox cleared themselves or their issue, no need to look further. You don't even need that, you just need to understand basic physiology.
Agreed BUT, the "pure adrenal" supplement you recommended several years ago did fuck all for me!! You say you recently took copper just to see how you react, at least you got a reaction, nothing I ever take works - good or bad!!
You are correct in saying the only people who've ever recovered have done it through DETOX. Unless you can recommend something better than the Andreas Moritz Liver cleanse, it's got to be the only way combined with more sensible eating!!
I'll let you know how I go in 20 years time 
On 6/11/2016 at 4:57 AM, Bobby.Digital said:Been a while since I've been on here. Seems like the copper is still a big debate.
My functional medicine doctor who originally asked me to get my cooper levels tested diagnosed me with excess copper stored in my organs after the following testing:
RBC, 24 hour urine, Ceruloplasmin levels came back - Low
24 urine after DMSA - High
Study from the British Journal of Medicine on the legitimacy of DMSA testing
[Edited link out]
So I've been chelating copper for 2 months. I haven't noticed any big improvements although I feel like I get less wandering thoughts. Nothing huge though. The biggest thing is I defienlty don't feel worse. He doesn't want to me to go any longer than 2 months as he doesn't think it's that big huge of an issue.
I've started supplementing VSL #3 over the past month but haven't noticed a big difference. Probitocis usually take a few months to really start working.
Another thing is I've been taking this liver detox supplement called DT Matrix.
[Edited link out]
I've noticed an big increase in dry mouth throughout the day and eye dryness/blurry vision upon waking up in the morning. I wonder if it's pushing Accutane out of my liver and into my blood stream? As soon as I come off this supplement the dry mouth goes way and the eye dryness/ blurry vision improves dramatically.
Also I've had some blood work thats came back recently with quite a few things flagged:
:
My white blood cell count have been chronically low since Accutane. Which it seems like alot of us have. My ANA has came back at 1:80 almost consistently now for the last few years. I've seen a rhumetologist about it in December of 2014 and after further testing I wasn't diagnosed with anything.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2175782
These results show that neutrophil function is reversibly impaired by marginal and severe Cu deficiency and suggest that the Cu status and function of these cells may provide a sensitive indicator for assessment of Cu status.
goto a regular doctor with these results, and please stop chelating before before you wind up dead.
Bobbydigital 10.7 (11-22) L .14(.15-.60) L .13(.24-.94umol/d) L
.......................................serum ............................................................................ceruloplasmin ...........24hr Urine
from another poster who had a carbon copy of your copper results. matysek:
"And now maybe something more interesting for @tryingtohelp2014 (i don't know hot to tag you :() - i have done copper tests you wanted (actually instead of RBC copper i got serum copper, but anyway...):
Ceruloplasmin: 18.3 mg/dl (15 - 30 is good range, but according to wikipedia 20-40 is good range).
Copper (serum i suppose): 69.86 ug/dl (70 - 140) = 0.6986 ug/ml
These seem to be comparable to yours, guys.
Also:
Bilirubin: 1.5 mg/dl (0 - 1.2) HIGH - tryingtohelp2014, you mentioned you have HIGH bilirubin too (coincidence? :))
Hope these results will help you in your research
And at the end maybe something useless, but maybe you will see something interesting there:
Last year at the begining of August i got (the results are in two units thousand/ul and in %):
neutrophils at 2.09 t(housands)/ul (2.5 - 7) LOW (36.9%, where 40-70 is good range - LOW)
eosinophils at 0.53 t/ul (0.1 - 0.5) HIGH (9.4%, 1 - 7 - HIGH)
Then at the begining of September i started to feel stomach pains after meals, later even without any meals
On 21 September my results were:
neutrophils: 2.11LOW, very similar result to previous (28%, 40 - 70 - LOWER)
eosinophils: 2.39 HIGH growth (31.8%, 1 - 7 - HIGHER)
I got some medicines for this, doctor was suspecting helicobacter pylori. I was taking medicines for about week, wasn't really helping, one day pain was that bad i didn't get out of bed. Then i quit medicines was fasting for three days. Pains passed and didn't come back (it was in October)
My recent blood test:
neutrophils 1.85 - even lower (35.7%, 40 - 70 - LOW)
eosinophils 0.38t/ul (0.1 - 0.5, so it seems to be good, but i %: 7.4, in range 1- 7 - HIGH)
lymphocytes 2.37t/ul (1 - 3.5 - good, but in %: 45.8, in range 20 - 45) "
5 hours ago, TrueJustice said:Agreed BUT, the "pure adrenal" supplement you recommended several years ago did fuck all for me!! You say you recently took copper just to see how you react, at least you got a reaction, nothing I ever take works - good or bad!!You are correct in saying the only people who've ever recovered have done it through DETOX. Unless you can recommend something better than the Andreas Moritz Liver cleanse, it's got to be the only way combined with more sensible eating!!
I'll let you know how I go in 20 years time
Liver flush is the most effective for the liver, the most impacted organ for sure, but true detox is from the lymphatic system, blood cannot be too toxic, if not you die, the body use the lymphatic system for protecting and cleansing himself. Accutane poison the organs, and with time provoke a global toxicity/congestion, an indirect poisoning, but to repair accutane direct damage, you first need to detox that global toxic system
.
I personaly succeed at regenerating everything, from mental issue, extreme fatigue, libido, memory, depression, emotions, joints, skin, etc... but the liver, always feels a congestion in that area, if i eat perfectly i feel it less, but it's still here. I believe with what i experience, that if accutane is still somewhere, it's in at i'll say 50% the liver, 20% intestine, 15% in the skin, and the rest little bit everywhere, from what i'm feeling/experiencing. But i'm still not sure accutane can be stored, it can also be vitamin A disregulation still affecting the body, but with a weak liver, it's hard to bring back balance to those retinoids (there is lot different form of them), vitamin D & K, in all cells of the body. Global toxicity, excretory organs failure (skin included) + all those direct issues, are an infernal loop, hard to escape, only in years you can regenerate (depend on people), but only if you do what should be done ofc.
just got emailed my latest copper results. the last set of numbers i posted one was from a blood copper test that was 81 out of 80-140. So my calculated free copper was wrong because I was using a blood copper test when I should have been using a serum test.
my calculated free copper is 21.6 range 10-15
other then that my copper levels are in reference range minus the free copper which is high.
So this means I sure as hell dont need any more copper supplements ever. forever. f-o-r-e-v-e-r. but i already knew this.
Ordered Items
Ceruloplasmin; Copper, Serum; Vendor Phlebotomy Fee; Please note
TESTS RESULT FLAG UNITS REFERENCE INTERVAL LAB
Ceruloplasmin 24.8 mg/dL 16.0 - 31.0 01
Copper, Serum 96 ug/dL 72 - 166 02
You can have the extracellular environment so congested that cells cant receive nutrients, even if they are in blood, same for intracellular. You can have intracellular deficiency and normal levels in blood. Blood is always balanced, when you take too much sodium you won't see a big increase in blood, since the body will diluate it with increasing water content. And if you have a noticeableelevation, it will last 30min-1hour, until the body bring back balance.
You can have hypothyroid, with normal T3 and T4 levels too.. especially with their official range, who are far too large..those tests means nothing, except if you have a "big" issue.
guitarman01,
So far you have the highest ceruloplasmin out of all of us. Most have a CP level below 20.
You are also one who supplemented with over 8mg copper per day. You started that in March.
How long did you supplement?
I wonder if it's possible that you raised your ceruloplasmin by doing that. Wish we knew your CP levels BEFORE the copper supplementation.
6 hours ago, anonyy said:Liver flush is the most effective for the liver, the most impacted organ for sure, but true detox is from the lymphatic system, blood cannot be too toxic, if not you die, the body use the lymphatic system for protecting and cleansing himself. Accutane poison the organs, and with time provoke a global toxicity/congestion, an indirect poisoning, but to repair accutane direct damage, you first need to detox that global toxic system
.
I personaly succeed at regenerating everything, from mental issue, extreme fatigue, libido, memory, depression, emotions, joints, skin, etc... but the liver, always feels a congestion in that area, if i eat perfectly i feel it less, but it's still here. I believe with what i experience, that if accutane is still somewhere, it's in at i'll say 50% the liver, 20% intestine, 15% in the skin, and the rest little bit everywhere, from what i'm feeling/experiencing. But i'm still not sure accutane can be stored, it can also be vitamin A disregulation still affecting the body, but with a weak liver, it's hard to bring back balance to those retinoids (there is lot different form of them), vitamin D & K, in all cells of the body. Global toxicity, excretory organs failure (skin included) + all those direct issues, are an infernal loop, hard to escape, only in years you can regenerate (depend on people), but only if you do what should be done ofc.
OK, so we agree on cleaning up the liver. The "Global toxicity" you talk about i.e Lymphatic system, can you please elaborate on Best supplements to clean up blood etc??
I know you are a big advocate for eating Raw etc but what else do you recommend for lymphatic?
I'm going to stick with Moritz' Liver cleanse - seems to be best way of cleansing!