Anyone had any experience with L-Carnitine? I remember a few pages back discussing it in regard to FOXO downregulation?

1 hour ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:

radio3,

There's no money in solving our problems. The money in researching accutane goes towards discovering the mechanisms for how AMAZING it is for suppressing the symptoms of acne.

This forum full of lay people is the best we have. I feel we've made great progress. This thread is incredibly useful. It won't solve all your answers and present them on a silver platter but it will point in the right directions for where one should spend time researching.

Ideally, we could get our own accutane forum with individual threads devoted to particular topics.
Wasn't someone working on this a while back?

Thanks for the advice yetantoheraccutanevictim.

I don't know if I should be taking copper, or avoiding copper, or drinking some oil with weed in it, or rather a coconut oil, or doing 20 cleanses of my liver, or believing those who argue that liver cleanses are a sham and that the "stones" that come out are just clumps of stuff you ingested to carry out the cleanse itself, or taking 5 vitamins, or taking 15 different vitamins + supplements, or rather a multivitamin to cover everything, but then there are those that say multi-vitamins are useless, or taking a 5a-reductase inhibitor, or rather that that is the last thing I should ever do, etc.

Any advice for how to make sense of it all? Are there things that you feel there has been more of a consensus on? Have you gotten definite and lasting results for yourself?

19 minutes ago, radio3 said:

Thanks for the advice yetantoheraccutanevictim.

I don't know if I should be taking copper, or avoiding copper, or drinking some oil with weed in it, or rather a coconut oil, or doing 20 cleanses of my liver, or believing those who argue that liver cleanses are a sham and that the "stones" that come out are just clumps of stuff you ingested to carry out the cleanse itself, or taking 5 vitamins, or taking 15 different vitamins + supplements, or rather a multivitamin to cover everything, but then there are those that say multi-vitamins are useless, or taking a 5a-reductase inhibitor, or rather that that is the last thing I should ever do, etc.

Any advice for how to make sense of it all? Are there things that you feel there has been more of a consensus on? Have you gotten definite and lasting results for yourself?

A few posts back I discussed the idea of having a post/thread listing every "conclusion" that we've reached and a list of suggested supplements and dietary actions and what each can possibly do to help. But of course that would require a very extensive look at this thread.

And not only this thread. Other threads on other forums. This thread has been active for so many years and people have come to so many different conclusions, some contradicting others, that I'm not sure if we'll ever reach a consensus. And I'm not even accounting for the fact that each individual has its own unique biology and past. I think it's obvious that, while some things are definitely good for everyone, like changing your diet in specific ways, when it comes to supplements, the effectiveness of most of them will greatly vary, so each person will have to come to its own conclusions, sometimes based on trial and error, unfortunately. Some people have had good results with specific combinations of supplements. If we were to make that thread I mentioned, a listing of those combinations would be helpful as well.

I've been suffering with this for two years and I've been looking into this and other threads for months, and it really is disorienting and exasperating to see things going in an endless loop. My only side effect (at least noticeable, because who knows if anything else in my body is messed up or will be in a few years) is hair loss, and coming from a guy who had lustrous 2 feet long hair, I would give anything, ANYTHING to have it back. I have the head of a 50 year old now. And it makes me feel bad enough without reminding myself that most of the people on this board are probably having it worse than me, with things like low libido, bone and joint pain, skin problems, etc.

So pretty much all we have is each other. Welcome to the community, and I hope we can pull this off.

radio3,

No, I have not healed myself but I have prevented myself from total collapse. The drug almost killed me. I've slowly dug myself out of a hole for the past 3 years. I get better each day but I'm nowhere near healed.

I suggest you take a look at this short document I typed up:
[Edited link out]

Unfortunately, people will have to do their own research to determine if certain therapies are worth doing for themselves.

I will note that liver&gallbladder flushing restored my digestion better than any other thing (I've spent at least $10,000 on supplements and things). I've done 12 liver&gallbladder flushes.

I'm currently focused on copper dysregulation.

Hitey,
Good post. You may wish to take a look at my side-effects to become grateful that hair loss is your main complaint. And L-Carnitine didn't help me. I went through many bottles. I maybe got better energy but it was temporary. Save your $$.

Excellent summary there AJSP!

I've had some more tests done this week, results as follows;

• Liver enzymes all within normal ranges (inc AST, ALT etc)
• Bilirubin levels normal
• White blood cell count normal (elevated might indicate an autoimmune issue)
• Liver/gallbladder ultrasounds considered normal - no gallstones, however there is some cholesterol in the gallbladder, I understand this is what may be expelled from the gallbladder when a 'flush' is performed. It's much less dense that what is considered a problematic 'hard' gallstone(s), and would be yellow-green when expelled. Apparently these develop when the bile contains too muchcholesterol and not enough bile salts.

May consider doing some more 'liver/gallbladder' flushes at some point (did one a couple of years back which yielded nothing). Not really convinced by them, but the fact that some people have said they swear by them, combined with the fact I now know for sure I have some cholesterol in the gallbladder makes me wonder...

tanedout,
Rarely people have the calcified stones. It's mainly cholesterol stones. They do not have the mineral composition necessary to show up on scans such as ultrasound.The ultrasound can show dilated bile ducts, though.
You absolutely have a congested biliary system. Flushing it out with the Andreas Moritz method is the best solution I've found.

What is your bilirubin level exactly? If it's above 1, there is a problem.
Post exact numbers of your liver enzymes as well if you don't mind.

Testing information I typed up from the book, Nutrient Power by William Walsh that you guys might find useful:

• Identification of pyrrole disorder, a medical condition associated with extreme deficiencies of B-6 and zinc
• Assessment of oxidative stress in an individual

6 hours ago, AJSP said:

Saw this today and thought I'd share it with you guys.

Roaccutane(isotretinoin) is a synthetic retinoic acid. The body uses retinoic acids to regulate gene expression. Gene expression means the way that cells are created (simplified a lot). Cells to be created needs transcription and replication of DNA. To put it simple, it's like making a cake. You need the ingredient list to be able to make the cake. The body needs DNA to be able to make the cells. Retinoic acids comes in this process by regulating the gene expression. It means that retinoic acid is a part of the creation of the cells. Retinoic acids binds to specific receptors in the body and play his role in the transcription and replication of DNA.

Here are some gene where retinoic acid play an important role (transcription and replication) :

Gene

Oxyticine......................................reproduction

Growth hormone...........................Growth

Phosphoenol puryvate...................Gluconeogenese (metabolism of sugar)

Alcohol dehydrogenase..................alcoholic oxidation

Transglutaminase..........................Growth and death of the cells

Laminine B1..................................Cellular interaction

GLA matrix protein.........................Growth and synthesis of the bones

Keratin........................................Skin

Retinol binding protein type I...........Vitamin A metabolism

RAR............................................... Vitaminic A action

HOX 1.6..........................................fetus growth

Dopamine receptor D2.....................CNS (central nervous system).

Why roaccutane heal acne :

Because Roaccutane and retinoic acid play a key role in the skin keratin gene. Acne is a keratin problem. So to fix acne you need to change the way DNA replicates for the keratin process to be brought to normal in patient with acne (having keratin problems). Roaccutane is the best known retinoic acid when it comes to keratin problems. So where is the problem with Accutane. Wellthe problem with Accutane is that unfortunaltely it doesn't act only on the Keratin gene. It also act (to a lesser extent on all the genes That I named previously). Here comes the side effects.

We've seen that Accutane acts on the keratin gene. It changes the way it replicates. That's why the people get dryer skin and no more acne, they also get peeling of the lips, hands, bleeding of the noose, dry scalp, dry skin, eye irritation. But these symptoms aren't that harsh. And even if some stay long term it definitely isn't a problem for acne sufferers.Accutane leaves in the cells receptors small traces of retinoic acids for very long term. That's the reason Accutane is considered a permanent cure to acne. Very small amount of it (we're talking about micrograms) are left on cells receptors for long term.that's why even after cessation of the treatment the acne is still gone.

The other side effects.

Bone pain : this one comes from the change in the replication and transcription of the GLA matrix protein gene. Accutane affect this gene.

Low blood sugar : this one comes from the change in the replication and transcription of Phosphoenol pyruvate gene. Accutane affect this gene.

Teratogenicity (means messes with the foetus growth). This one comes from the change in the replication and transcription of the HOX 1,6 gene. Accutane affect this gene.

Insomnia, depression suicidal thoughts, muscle twitching... This one comes from the change in the replication and transcription of the Dopamine receptor D2 gene. Accutane affects this gene.

Weight loss (unable to gain weight back), weight gain. This one comes from the change in the replication and transcription of the Growth hormone gene. Accutane affect this gene.

Now why do Accutane causes terrible side effects to some and not so terrible side effects to the most. There are mainly two reasons :

- Accutane is isotretinoin : a synthetic retinoic acid that is supposed to only affect the keratin gene. It does affect all the other genes but to a lesser extent.

- Accutane is introduced in the body, damage is starting to be done to the body. Cells dies at a greater rate or grow at an anarchic rate. Most of the people can repair the damage so the rate at which cells are repaired is greater than the rate at which cells are damaged. Remember that each day millions of cells are created and millions of cells are dying. It is the aging process. Accutane in some person illicit a greater damage rate and the body with time is no longer able to repair the damage at the same rate it is done. That's why some people have reported side effects from Accutane years after they stopped the drug.

This is how roaccutane works for getting rid of acne and also how it illicit in some person terrible side effects.Once you have taken Accutane the way your DNA is Transcripted and replicated is modified, it is just like you are genetically modified.That's why you don't have acne anymore but bottom line, that's why some experience terrible and devastating side effects.

Now that you know the whole truth about the drug, it is your choice to take it or not.

When I took the drug, I was unfortunately only 21 and I was more preoccupied on how I could get that girl sitting next to me in class going out with me. Like all 21 years old guys I wasn't preoccupied by Retinoic acids and gene transcription (and to be hones those biology courses I was taking were boring). I would have wanted someone to warn me and tell me how Accutane really works. I wouldn't be in such trouble now because knowing the whole truth about the tane, I would have never ever took it.

PS : for those that think that derms know everything about Accutane and that they wouldn't prescribe it if it was a hazardous substance. Wake up, derms aren't biologists or chemist. They aren't some smart brains. The only ability they have is a learning one. They are unable to use logic and mathematic to understand how roaccutane works, go ask them by wich chemical route Accutane is made, they will not answer because they know nothing about the drug. It took me Thousand of pages before starting to understand how the accutane works. Accutane causes side effects that no doctor has ever seen and they can't cure them because they are not like the symptoms they know. Accutane side effects will mimic other disease but the doctors don't know it so they can't cure them. You are warned.

Please if your acne isn't severe and if you don't think about suicide stay away of this drug.

Had some weird formatting issues which I fixed.

Found it here:
http://www.acne.org/messageboard/topic/67762-accutane-permanently-genetically-modifies-genes/

This is an interesting (and shocking) read. The source of this article is unknown. The forum, from where is copied & pasted, is closed. This makes it impossible to really judge on the truth and relevance. The author seems well informed though.

yetanotheraccutanevictim, I forgot to request a print out of the results unfortunately, but I will do so and post up when I have them.

Roland1968, if you google for chunks of that post it goes back to 2004, possibly earlier. I can't find the original source (looks like it was seemingly now defunct 'Accutane Active group'), but it's let to some interesting debate on a few threads/forums (the one below seems to include additional responses to the person who posted whats above, and some studies referenced);

http://www.acnearchives.com/1940

It's also been posted a number of times on acne.org, earliest in 2005, but surprisingly never in this thread.

Has anyone NOT had low serum ceruloplasmin?

We need people to test their copper levels immediately after they have taken a full course of accutane treatment. This is when free copper levels may be at their peak. we need to find this out. and then copper levels, free copper that is ,could be very, very slow to come down to normal range. if they ever do. even then their could be copper build up or "stuck" where its not suppose to be. like say the intestines,your brain or various glands.

I just went all over youtube asking people to get their serum copper & ceruloplasmin & RBC copper levels checked. These were all people who were late into their accutane treatments. Hopefully within the next month, we'll have more results.

I just went all over youtube asking people to get their serum copper & ceruloplasmin & RBC copper levels checked. These were all people who were late into their accutane treatments. Hopefully within the next month, we'll have more results.

Oh, and one of the videos was about this girl's dog who ate like 24 pills of accutane!
Luckily, it threw them all up. That would've probably killed the dog had it not vomited.
link

Poor dog , another pHARMa victim lol .

Everyone look into molybdenum and copper excretion.
Can someone try to find studies showing that it helps rid the body of bad, unbound copper without affecting good, bound copper? There's some connection.

[Edited link out]

"High doses of 1.5 milligrams per day of molybdenum supplements have been taken by US adult males for a period of 24 days without adverse consequence. The study concluded that it was safe to take such an amount for a period equal to or greater than 24 days (Turnlund, 1995). It should be emphasized this study was of adult men and did not include children at this dosage level, nor did it include pregnant women, or humans with gout.

This dosage level is known to begin to dump excess accumulation of copper in the urine, which is not harmful in itself. However, if continued for long periods of time, it is believed that this level would eventually produce a conditioned copper deficiency (Deosthale & Gopalan, 1974). In Indian children, this level of dosage produces bone deformities after long-term intake. However, such a dosage might be a promising dietary approach to Wilsons Disease for adult men and women under the supervision of a knowledgeable orthomolecular physician, but as far as I know, has not been attempted. Much higher doses have been attempted with animal studies involving metal poisoning and cancer for short periods of time without adverse events. Applications to humans have not been attempted in the data I have reviewed. However, experimental molybdenum cancer drugs and chelation therapy drugs for Wilsons Disease are in the early stages of clinical trials with very promising results (Kopf-Maier, 1994). "

10 hours ago, Roland1968 said:

This is an interesting (and shocking) read. The source of this article is unknown. The forum, from where is copied & pasted, is closed. This makes it impossible to really judge on the truth and relevance. The author seems well informed though.

I am sure you can find it on max proboards roaccutane science

13 hours ago, radio3 said:

Thanks for the advice yetantoheraccutanevictim.

I don't know if I should be taking copper, or avoiding copper, or drinking some oil with weed in it, or rather a coconut oil, or doing 20 cleanses of my liver, or believing those who argue that liver cleanses are a sham and that the "stones" that come out are just clumps of stuff you ingested to carry out the cleanse itself, or taking 5 vitamins, or taking 15 different vitamins + supplements, or rather a multivitamin to cover everything, but then there are those that say multi-vitamins are useless, or taking a 5a-reductase inhibitor, or rather that that is the last thing I should ever do, etc.

Any advice for how to make sense of it all? Are there things that you feel there has been more of a consensus on? Have you gotten definite and lasting results for yourself?

I know the feeling it's frustratingtrying to know what to do, but under NO circumstances would I ever blame this forum - at this stage it's all we've got!!

Its getting to the point where we are all arming ourselves with more knowledge and actually going to the doctor knowing more than they do about Accutane and the side effects, it's not about proving a point with them but more about spreading information!!

As others have said, you will need to decipher info on this thread and do the whole trial and error thing to work out what is best for you! I've been on one forum or another now for at least 15 years experimenting and trying to combat my issues, again it's not easy but what else can you do??

There is no magic pill at this stage, perhaps look at those liver flushes - they require work but they will clean up your liver, next to the heart it's the most important organ you need to look after!

Good luck

http://www.traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Copper.pdf

Look at page 103, nutrients synergistic to copper.
Discusses copper in relation to other vitamins.
Says effects of hyper-vitaminosis A can be decreased by copper supplementation.

any feedback from the knowledgeable appreciated.

5 hours ago, hatetane said:

http://www.traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Copper.pdf

Look at page 103, nutrients synergistic to copper.
Discusses copper in relation to other vitamins.
Says effects of hyper-vitaminosis A can be decreased by copper supplementation.

any feedback from the knowledgeable appreciated.

Nice find! Makes sense. Nature knows best. Look at the nutritional content of liver:
https://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3468/2
VERY high in retinol but has plenty of copper to combat toxicity.

We're still not sure if we should be ingesting retinol from liver, though. We know accutaneleads to a vit A deficiency but some get really screwed up from ingesting a tiny amount of preformed vit A.

It'd be a good idea to supplement with a higher amount of copper with any meal containing high amounts of retinol.
Maybe that'll help us recover faster. We could eat a few ounces of liver with like 10mg of copper from supplements. I'll try that today.

Vitamin A toxicity increases serum copper significantly. Is it pulling copper out of the tissues (like the liver) where it's needed?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3455184
The effect of hypervitaminosis A on the content of sodium, potassium, magnesium, iron, zinc and copper in rat serum was studied. Results were compared to findings in non-treated animals. The serum content of potassium, magnesium and copper increased significantly, while the content of sodium, zinc and iron decreased significantly in the treated animals, when compared to the values obtained with untreated animals. Possible mechanisms for these changes are discussed, and we conclude that high doses of vitamin A cause a marked change in the serum content on the measured cations.

here's the max proboards oli girl was talking about:
http://max001.proboards.com/

A response I got from an accutane user on YouTube who I asked to get his copper & bilirubin levels checked:
"I will definitely look into this! Hopefully that is one of the blood tests that my doctor has been checking! He is actually very good with stuff like that, especially because he actually wrote his thesis on accutane and is a leading expert on it in the country. Hopefully he has been checking that and I will be fine! I will get back to you on that as soon as I know though, thanks for the feedback!"

Could someone see if these homeopathic remedies for copper help you:
http://www.amazon.com/Boiron-Cuprum-metallicum-200CK-plts/dp/B0006NXGC0
or
http://www.amazon.com/UNDA-Gammadyn-Mn-Cu-30-Unidoses/dp/B0083UWWSC

Just found an old blood test from dec 2013 (1 year post-accutane)

1 year post-accutane(Dec 3013)
ceruloplasmin 21 ref 18-36
serum copper 81 ref 70-175
non-ceruloplasmin copper: 18 ref 5-15
-----------------------------
3.5 years post-accutane (2016)

3 hours ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:

Just found an old blood test from dec 2013 (1 year post-accutane)

1 year post-accutane(Dec 3013)
ceruloplasmin 21 ref 18-36
serum copper 81 ref 70-175
non-ceruloplasmin copper: 18 ref 5-15
-----------------------------
3.5 years post-accutane (2016)

ceruloplasmin 16 (ref 18-36 mg/dL)
serum copper 79 (ref 70-175 mcg/dL)

non-ceruloplasmin copper 31 (ref 5-15)

Things got worse over time!?
In early 2014, I started eating more mineral rich sources of food like organ meats (including liver).
Does this make sense to anyone?

did you ever get a serum retinol test? Nobody on this board is copper toxic. ceruloplasmin deficient yes? since retinol AND copper are needed to make ceruloplasmin.

Hi All. Just wanted to give another update,

So I've confirmed my genetic testing with my doctor. Poor methylator. I've upped my dosage of SAMe by Jarrow Formulas to 400mg BID , still taking 5mg of methylfolate, and 2,500 of methyl B12 daily. I've noticed improvements in joint stiffness and less pain. My mood is the most noticeable thing that has improved. I still get agitated easily, however, I am less depressed, overall more euthymic mood. I am enjoying life more. I've also coupled this with a strict candida diet (but making delicious yummy desserts with stevia like mint choc chip ice creaim, cookies, etc. to enjoy life more) and sweating on a near daily basis through mild exercise like walking, hiking, pickup soccer, yoga, bike-riding, etc.. These seems to be a good balance for me. Recently did my 10th/11th liver flush (I lost track, and who really cares right?) and again, always feel better afterward. I had much smaller stones come out this time and less of them. However, the last time this happened, the flush I did next involved HUGE "stones" coming out among a bunch of smaller ones. So I'm going to keep doing it. It's almost like the small crap comes out first and frees up space for the bigger stuff to come out. My bogus theory anyways.

Had my doctor draw blood for all the copper tests that are possible to do via blood and waiting on results.

Take care,

52 minutes ago, MovingOnMusicGal said:

Hi All.  Just wanted to give another update,

So I've confirmed my genetic testing with my doctor.  Poor methylator.  I've upped my dosage of SAMe by Jarrow Formulas to 400mg BID , still taking 5mg of methylfolate, and 2,500 of methyl B12 daily.  I've noticed improvements in joint stiffness and less pain.  My mood is the most noticeable thing that has improved.  I still get agitated easily, however, I am less depressed, overall more euthymic mood.  I am enjoying life more.  I've also coupled this with a strict candida diet (but making delicious yummy desserts with stevia like mint choc chip ice creaim, cookies, etc. to enjoy life more) and sweating on a near daily basis through mild exercise like walking, hiking, pickup soccer, yoga, bike-riding, etc..  These seems to be a good balance for me.  Recently did my 10th/11th liver flush (I lost track, and who really cares right?) and again, always feel better afterward. I had much smaller stones come out this time and less of them. However, the last time this happened, the flush I did next involved HUGE "stones" coming out among a bunch of smaller ones.  So I'm going to keep doing it.  It's almost like the small crap comes out first and frees up space for the bigger stuff to come out.  My bogus theory anyways.

Had my doctor draw blood for all the copper tests that are possible to do via blood and waiting on results.

Take care,

 

Thats goid news!! Glad you're getting some noticeable results!!

I agree with theory on liver flushes, I've only done 4 and will do more in coming months but YES sometimes stones are small and then next time much bigger like the mother-load gets released eventually or something!!

Hiw are you going with the colon hydrotherapy before & after??

Thats the hardest and most inconvenient part of procedure for me - If I knew how to do them at home I would!!

well done on finding some relief  

2 hours ago, tryingtohelp2014 said:

4 hours ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:

Just found an old blood test from dec 2013 (1 year post-accutane)

1 year post-accutane(Dec 3013)
ceruloplasmin 21 ref 18-36
serum copper 81 ref 70-175
non-ceruloplasmin copper: 18 ref 5-15
-----------------------------
3.5 years post-accutane (2016)

ceruloplasmin 16 (ref 18-36 mg/dL)
serum copper 79 (ref 70-175 mcg/dL)

non-ceruloplasmin copper 31 (ref 5-15)

Things got worse over time!?
In early 2014, I started eating more mineral rich sources of food like organ meats (including liver).
Does this make sense to anyone?

2

did you ever get a serum retinol test? Nobody on this board is copper toxic. ceruloplasmin deficient yes? since retinol AND copper are needed to make ceruloplasmin.

Tryingtohelp2014,
Yes, December 2013 (1 year post accutane):
my retinol level was 53 (reference range 38-106 ug/dl).
Also, according a spectracell test post-accutane, I was RBC retinol deficient. I also had night blindness (first sign of retinol deficiency). I've since corrected that issue by eating liver.

*I wouldn't say none of us are copper toxic. Apparently we are copper toxic because our ceruloplasmin levels seem to all be low. Our copper is unbound traveling around the body causing damage and is unable to be used for major functions like SOD creation.
You know this but it's worth mentioning:
We are toxic in BIOUNAVAILABLE copper.
We are deficient in BIOAVAILABLE copper.

TrueJustice,
Just do 2 back to back water enemas. I also take oxypowder (mg oxide) to flush out the entire intestine.

MovingOnMusicalGal,
Thanks for the updates you provide.
What would you say your main problematic symptom is?

2 hours ago, tryingtohelp2014 said:

Nobody on this board is copper toxic.

Why dont you do your research on elevated free copper levels and tell me what you find. your only seeing what you want to see which is very dangerous for anyone that still holds your comments in regard. you know what they say about assuming right? you got poor accutane victim convinced he needs more copper. nice job.

copper is normally safely processed in the liver. Accutane caused copper to bypass or get flushed out of the liver. hence elevated free copper. not to hard to figure out.
and lets clear the air here. None of you know what I know about copper. So lets go ahead and trust the guy that says "he thinks copper is moving something". That sounds legit.

Hi TrueJustice,

I don't adhere to the colon hydrotherapy before and after, other than making sure I'm moving my bowels/magnesium/oxypowder, etc. before the flush and then after the flush. I will at times do a water enema to ensure it is clear. I cannot afford colon hydrotherapy. I don't believe this is best practice, but it has worked for me. Also, I had candida prior to doing the liver flushes, so it's not causing that thankfully.

I've just tried to take a more holistic approach and do things solely based upon what makes me feel better.

I don't know if that helps....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Side note: on the copper route though, I do feel worse after copper supplementation (I've only done this sporadically to experiment, not taking it now). My joints clearly snap more, I have insomnia, and horrible joint pain. I have candida and I did read this in the article that someone posted:

"TMA studies have shown that chronic candidiasis is frequently associated with copper excess. Therefore, minerals and vitamins antagonistic to copper can be considered to have anti-fungal and anti-yeast properties".

Also, " Other conditions commonly observed with excessive tissue copper accumulation via TMA studies include chronic E.B.V. and C.M.V. infections, emotional disturbances (depressive disorders), hypoglycemia, fatigue, fibroid tumors, low blood pressure, transient high blood pressure, anorexia, PMS, AIDS, dermatosis, endometriosis, infertility, hair loss, type II insomnia, and frontal headaches"

....I experience almost all of these symptoms..and I recently showed signs of EBV on a blood test. I'm not adhering strongly to one side or the other, I honestly just don't know. But the few people that did have the hair mineral analysis done that I spoke to had copper in excess and when they minimized this over time they felt better. I really wants more answers.

I'm waiting for my test results on the copper. I want to believe that we all have copper deficiency and what has been discussed has made sense, butttt, I don't like playing Russian Roulette long-term now that I am feeling a little bit better.

I do believe that someone was trying to explain that the excess shows up in the hair analysis but that this may be due to a deficiency, as the body is not actively utilizing the copper. But I don't think I fully understood the explanation.