On 5/28/2016 at 5:21 AM, Ruvik said:

On 5/28/2016 at 5:13 AM, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:

Sorry, forum is messed up.. She water fasted a lot and did salt water flushes. She probably took a lot of intestinal binders as well (like bentonite clays, charcoal, psyllium husk, etc) I think she has a blog: [Edited link out]

3

what he used for detox?

I see NatureCrazy have responded to someones comment on their recent post on helping to rid yourself of accutane sides on YouTube;

Quote

If natural substances and methods did not work our website and company would not exist. Epigenetics controls gene expression so taking a few natural agents that will epigenetically alter gene expression in a positive way is crucial. Drugs such as Accutane are not able to modulate, instead they turn off essential functions. Also because Accutane increases lipids (fats), and elevates homocysteine levels significantly it is recommended to supplement with some extra Biotin and Vitamin B12. Here is that study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18181979 It's important to know that every individual has a unique biochemistry, therefore which specific supplements that will be most helpful can vary. Ultimately, trial and error will see it out.

Sounds quite plausible, and obviously we already know that elevated homocysteine is a known side effect.

Here's the link for anyone who missed it;

12 hours ago, tanedout said:

I see NatureCrazy have responded to someones comment on their recent post on helping to rid yourself of accutane sides on YouTube;

Sounds quite plausible, and obviously we already know that elevated homocysteine is a known side effect.

Here's the link for anyone who missed it;

12 hours ago, tanedout said:

I see NatureCrazy have responded to someones comment on their recent post on helping to rid yourself of accutane sides on YouTube;

Sounds quite plausible, and obviously we already know that elevated homocysteine is a known side effect.

Here's the link for anyone who missed it;

12 hours ago, tanedout said:

I see NatureCrazy have responded to someones comment on their recent post on helping to rid yourself of accutane sides on YouTube;

Sounds quite plausible, and obviously we already know that elevated homocysteine is a known side effect.

Here's the link for anyone who missed it;

I have asked before. Has anyone been tested for homocysteine. Many reports on elevated homocysteine and accutane.
Plus elevated homocysteine can cause ED
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Erectile_Dysfunction_High_Homocysteine.aspx

19 hours ago, tanedout said:

I see NatureCrazy have responded to someones comment on their recent post on helping to rid yourself of accutane sides on YouTube;

Sounds quite plausible, and obviously we already know that elevated homocysteine is a known side effect.

Here's the link for anyone who missed it;

Thanks for sending this link. Haven't tried Calcium D Clucarate yet but I will. Also are Swedish bitters the same as Chinese bitters?? My local health store didn't have the Chinese ones.

The Swedish bottle did say it aids bile flow - that's essentially why I would be taking it!!

Also, has anyone taken Vit A in liquid form yet?

I wonder if Roche is behind releasing this video - if so its only about 40 years too late, there was no fucking video or exit plan when I took the poison back in late 90's......all of a sudden someone releases a video with an 8 step plan for combating side effects.....why now??????

9 minutes ago, TrueJustice said:

Thanks for sending this link. Haven't tried Calcium D Clucarate yet but I will. Also are Swedish bitters the same as Chinese bitters?? My local health store didn't have the Chinese ones.

The Swedish bottle did say it aids bile flow - that's essentially why I would be taking it!!

Also, has anyone taken Vit A in liquid form yet?

I wonder if Roche is behind releasing this video - if so its only about 40 years too late, there was no fucking video or exit plan when I took the poison back in late 90's......all of a sudden someone releases a video with an 8 step plan for combating side effects.....why now??????

Swedish bitters probably work just as well as Chinese bitters as they both containgentian which is an extremely bitter herb. Anything bitter you ingest will stimulate bile flow from what I've been reading.

Chinese bitters are basically the following 2 herbs, Gentian and Buplerurum. I've ordered some, but they've not arrived yet, however I've been drinking tea made of organic ginger root in the meantime.

I also had similar thoughts behind that video, I'd be interested to know how the recommendations came about (i.e. what research or theories they're based on) and if they are aware of any people actual recovering based on those recommendations.

2 hours ago, tanedout said:

Swedish bitters probably work just as well as Chinese bitters as they both containgentian which is an extremely bitter herb. Anything bitter you ingest will stimulate bile flow from what I've been reading.

Chinese bitters are basically the following 2 herbs, Gentian and Buplerurum. I've ordered some, but they've not arrived yet, however I've been drinking tea made of organic ginger root in the meantime.

I also had similar thoughts behind that video, I'd be interested to know how the recommendations came about (i.e. what research or theories they're based on) and if they are aware of any people actual recovering based on those recommendations.

Yeah good point - how did these recommendations come about??
its all delivered in a manner that suggests you'll have no issues with tane side effects, just follow the 8 step procedure and all will be fine........really how did they come to know this????

Also, how long have they known that this is the plan you need to follow?? Didn't help the poor buggers who committed suicide over the last 30 years after accutane did it!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for the video but why don't doctors know this stuff?? Why don't dermatologists know this stuff??

When I first went to my doctor with issues, all I was told to take was Vit C. My point is, if you're gonna give accutane to people than have some fucking answers on how to treat side effects - the fucking mind boggles!!!

1 hour ago, TrueJustice said:

Yeah good point - how did these recommendations come about??
its all delivered in a manner that suggests you'll have no issues with tane side effects, just follow the 8 step procedure and all will be fine........really how did they come to know this????

Also, how long have they known that this is the plan you need to follow?? Didn't help the poor buggers who committed suicide over the last 30 years after accutane did it!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for the video but why don't doctors know this stuff?? Why don't dermatologists know this stuff??

When I first went to my doctor with issues, all I was told to take was Vit C. My point is, if you're gonna give accutane to people than have some fucking answers on how to treat side effects - the fucking mind boggles!!!

Maybe jumping the gun a bit though, no confirmation any of these procedures will actually work, but they sound like they're worth trying.

Guys, over the past week I have been doing some online research on my own.

For those of you who are facing libido, depression, anxiety, fatigue and genital insensitivity issues, try incorporating Sorghum grains or flours into your diet. If the drug has indeed inhibited the activity of the 5-alpha reductase enzymes, this may work for you. Sorghum is said to be able to increase 5-alpha reductase activity. But of course, I believe that this only works if your body is already producing enough testosterone. You need testosterone as a precursor for DHT production by 5-alpha reductase. Also, rather than just blindly raising your DHT levels, I feel that it is important to have an overall good balance of testosterone, DHT and estrogen. Might be good to get yourself thoroughly tested for a comprehensive hormonal profile, and engage an endocrinologist and nutritionist to monitor and get your hormones back in balance. Blindly raising your DHT levels to abnormally high levels is bad too.

Another less natural supplement I found to be good for raising DHT is creatine. While it is not so natural, this is a very well known and common supplement used for years by bodybuilders and even common gym goers.

There have been reports of good successes with these for people who suffered ED or PFS after using Saw palmetto/propecia. You can google for these.

I'm not sure whether there are any bodybuilders in this thread, but I have scoured the internet and found accutane threads on body-builder forums. It seems as if body-builders are much less prone to the side effects of accutane. (Or maybe those who do experience the severe side issues never bothered to report. Hopefull this isn't the case) This hints that maybe a lot of the severe side effects stems from hormonal imbalances. Many of these body builders are constantly monitoring and manipulating their hormonal levels, so it could be possible that they had serendipitously overriden effect that accutane may have caused.

Also, I can't stress enough how helpful bone broths and gelatin are to people who have candida and leaky gut issues. Incorporate more gelatin and fermented food like natto, kombucha and milk kefir into your diet if you can.

***If anyone here has already tried what I mentioned in this post, kindly share about the progress and experience.

Could anyone write a list of the most common deficiences and high levels of vitamins, minerals and other substances like homocysteine, copper etc?

@HealthConsciousall of those things have already been mentioned numerous times on this thread. I've got about 1kg of sorghum grain left in the cupboard - it's actually quite nice, but can't say I've noticed anything from it. Could still be worth trying though, I've read some PFSer's saying they got some improvements from it.

Regards bone broth, someone on here did reckon they got some good results from that, quite a lot earlier in the thread. I've not tried it myself, but I know it's good for gut health and is part of the GAPS diet. I eat sauerkraut and milk kefir daily. I think any benefits from those would be over a fairly long period and I've only been eating/drinking them for a couple of months, so too early to say if I think there is a benefit really, but in theory they could be helpful.

WTF yea that video is crazy. Where and how did they get all their information? and then put it in a nice cute little video with cute music. Some time went into that with the high production value.

For TUDCA powder and empty caps use this website, they are perfect

http://www.powdercity.com/products/tudca-tauroursodeoxycholic-acid

Hi guys!

I'v been reading this blog for a while without logging in... Now I just felt like asking some feedback and opinions. My case is quite interesting since I only took one 20mg dose of Isotretinoin in last december (after taking the dose I felt quite dizzy but didn't think much about it. Luckily decided to stop taking the med. f*** acne ;D) Righ from the day following the dose I have had anxiety, dry mouth at some point of the day, stool in the morning is quite in liquid form, insomnia (I wake up every night at some point. I do not think anything particular or stress when I wake up so it seems quite biological...), my pulse is faster than before and I can totally feel the beats.

Those are the main symptoms and do not know if there is something else but have not noticed it... It just feels like my body is in stress-mode 24/7 (Must I mention that I'v been to doctor's office couple of times and there's been no indication of anything wrong........)

I'v been struggling with the hypothesis that what could it be... I have found out from PubMed that Isotretinoin can increase SERT levels in addition to receptor 5-HT1A levels. ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=isotretinoin+sert+receptor ) in addition there are some texts about isotretinoin's ability to make changes that are connected with dopamine. Since they are connected to almost anything the body does, there could be a connection...

What do you guys think? Is this particular case a problem related to seretonin / dopamine or might it be the same as with you guys have been talking about here lately?

2 hours ago, Walden Rev said:

For TUDCA powder and empty caps use this website, they are perfect

http://www.powdercity.com/products/tudca-tauroursodeoxycholic-acid

That's a brand I've just started using. I've tried various other brands before. I think it needs to be taken with calcium d glucarate and coconut oil too if there's anything concrete from that video. I've taken all those things individually before with no lasting success.

2 hours ago, Riky said:

Hi guys!

I'v been reading this blog for a while without logging in... Now I just felt like asking some feedback and opinions. My case is quite interesting since I only took one 20mg dose of Isotretinoin in last december (after taking the dose I felt quite dizzy but didn't think much about it. Luckily decided to stop taking the med. f*** acne ;D) Righ from the day following the dose I have had anxiety, dry mouth at some point of the day, stool in the morning is quite in liquid form, insomnia (I wake up every night at some point. I do not think anything particular or stress when I wake up so it seems quite biological...), my pulse is faster than before and I can totally feel the beats.

Those are the main symptoms and do not know if there is something else but have not noticed it... It just feels like my body is in stress-mode 24/7 (Must I mention that I'v been to doctor's office couple of times and there's been no indication of anything wrong........)

I'v been struggling with the hypothesis that what could it be... I have found out from PubMed that Isotretinoin can increase SERT levels in addition to receptor 5-HT1A levels. ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=isotretinoin+sert+receptor ) in addition there are some texts about isotretinoin's ability to make changes that are connected with dopamine. Since they are connected to almost anything the body does, there could be a connection...

What do you guys think? Is this particular case a problem related to seretonin / dopamine or might it be the same as with you guys have been talking about here lately?

Dopamine and serotonin are absolutely 100% involved, discussed many times on this thread.

I know what you mean about the heart rate where you feel the beats, this is one of the first things I noticed post tane that I could feel my heart beating in my head when lying on my pillow. It's been like that ever since. BTW for sleep, things that increase melatonin are worth considering, especially almonds and also brazil nuts - I've found them to definitely help!

Thought as much Tanedout... If that really is the case, has anyone tried Tryptophan (or its developed form 5-HTP) or L-Theanine? The first 2 are after all formed into serotonin. As for L-Theanine, it might also help with brain chemicals... I didn't find any comments about those on this thread... I'm just hoping I won't get any more of these "lovely" side effects...

I've been looking into Calcium D-Glucarate but I'm having trouble finding it here in Portugal, and ordering online will cost me 30 a 60x500mg bottle. If I took 3 tablets (1500mg) daily, it would only last me 20 days, I'm not sure if this would be any useful or if I should keep taking it for a longer time?

Currently I've been taking milk thistle, MSM and biotin for the last two weeks, also changing my diet to include less wheat and more fruits and vegetables and coconut oil. Calcium D-Glucarate and TUDCA seem like good additions but I can't help but feel I'll start going way overboard with supplements. For the record, I took accutane for six weeks nearly two years ago and my most noticeable symptom was hair loss which hasn't really stopped, I've lost like half of my hair on the top of my head and it's become super thin.

Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated, maybe we need to form a new post or thread with a list of substances that (may) help, based on evidence and user experience from the forum.

My doctor is willing to look into copper more intensively and told me that she wouldn't mind any research studies I give to her and the other doctors. FOR THE WIN! Doesn't necessarily mean that she or he will know exactly what to do but at least two doctors that are helpful is better than none or three conventional doctors *laughs*

Anyone have some concise studies that speak to accutane and copper relationship AND accutane and storage in the liver? Anything related to epigenetics in relation to accutane really will work too.

Thanks!

Steph

@MovingOnMusicGal

----

1 hour ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:

@MovingOnMusicGal

1/23/2016 post by tryingtohelp2014:

"forget everything you read on the interwebs about copper toxicity. youve taken accutane!! you dont have it! GET TESTED!

accutane does two things very well:

1.it raises the ATP7A enzyme (this has the opposite effect as ATP7B or wilsons disease) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2634674/

2. 13-cis retinoic acid induces ceruloplasmin 4x the normal level during treatment http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3655940 and this process stops as you become deficient in copper

now #1 could very well be related to #2. 1. removes copper from the cell (efflux.) 2.could be the that copper removed from the cell, and binding it for excretion.

both of these deplete or bind to copper. I REPEAT, this is why accutane is a chemotherapy drug. theyve found that by introducing other copper chelators while on accutane, cause cancer cells to stop proliferating even faster. This would also cause a methionine restriction by an indirectmethionine synthasedeficiency. this is a known cancer fighting strategy.... methionine restriction.

if you have any type of numbness after accutane, you probably have some type of peripheral neuropathy (yes this might be permanent nerve damage)...not too far away from full blown myelopathy

GET TESTED!

so by this chart , Methylation is greatly inhibited (by up to 80%) if you dont have the cofactors needed to producemethionine synthase. you would constantly have to introduce high amounts of SAM-E because the SAH doesnt get recycled back to methionine to naturally produce more SAM-E. now its also beenWELLdocumented that accutance throws off the SAM/SAH balance. so this would fit.

then you could really go down the wormhole....

purine synthesis--->NADH --->NADH is needed for---retinol dehydrogenase.....

"Some retinol dehydrogenases are in extra-oculartissues, such ashumanretinol dehydrogenase-4 (RoDH-4), which converts retinol and 1-cis-retinol to different aldehydes inliverandskin. It was also found that 13-cis-retinoic acid (isotretinoin), 3,4-didehydroretinoic acid, and 3,4-didehydroretinol can act ascompetitive inhibitorof the 3-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenaseoxidativeactivity of the enzyme. This can potentially explain howisotretinoin, the active ingredient isRoaccutane(Accutane), can suppresssebaceous glandsand be used for severe acne treatment.^[15]

CH₃CH₂OH + NAD⁺ CH₃CHO +NADH+ H⁺

.....
Remember vitamin A is an alcohol...so when you feel better after drinking, you are promoting an alcohol reducing detoxification pathway. Feeling noticeablybetter after drinking(in our specific accutane cases),would almost confirm a highly burdened body of retinylesters.
....
This allows the consumption ofalcoholic beverages, but its evolutionary purpose is probably the breakdown of alcohols naturally contained in foods or produced bybacteriain thedigestive tract.^[19]

Another evolutionary purpose may be metabolism of the endogenous alcoholvitamin A(retinol), which generates the hormoneretinoic acid, although the function here may be primarily the elimination of toxic levels of retinol.^[20][21]

it took them 10+ years to but a disclaimer in commercials forNexium (that little purple pill)... that it depletes magnesium, causing all types of problems. people were breaking bones!! Accutane will be proven to be the same."

----

4/2/16 post by Tryingtohelp2014

"we've had a total of 3 people get tested for copper plus myself... all came back deficient. the odds of this happening are ridiculous. we need MORE people to get tested, and to stop talking out of their ass and experimenting with symptoms!!!!!!! we have NO IDEA what we are absorbing from foods. we have NO IDEA how much of what we have stored in the liver right now. ive ate a copper rich diet for 20 years and im still low??? multiminerals are the wrong thing to take.

i would not take an amount higher than the RDA in addition to a normal diet until you get testested and retested. Like ive said, my brain hasnt felt this good in years. the brain fog is gone, ive been going to the gym 2x a day for weeks. i attribute this to increased dopamine? im motivated again.

i see new people on here and post their symptoms...white skin , scars that wont heal, cant think, cant talk. and it just sickens me. GET TESTED! we can rule things out"
----
Dietrich K.Klinghardt, MD, PhDon copper toxicity:

"Oxidized used-up iron and copper get displaced into the extracellular compartment and body fluids, and appears in your hair and skin as thats your bodys most efficient way of excreting toxins without damaging your kidneys.This has led to the dangerous, and in its consequence, catastrophic assumption that these metals are the enemy and need to be restricted. It is true that oxidized metals pose a danger and have to be reduced (=substitution of electrons) or eliminated. However, when copper and iron are needed and substituted appropriately, major improvements have been observed. Appropriate antioxidant treatment can reduce these metals. Homeopathic copper and iron leads to beneficial redistribution of these metals and makes them bio-available again."
----

post by Tanedout:

"This is quite an interesting read on the current focus of copper toxicity/deficiency;

http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/copper_toxicity_syndrome.htm

• It is possible for a person to become copper-toxic, copper-deficient or to have a condition called biounavailable copper."

----
Tryingtohelp2014 advises we all get these tests to rule out a deficiency of copper:

"RBC copper RBC copper & plasma copper$119

ceruloplasmin ($39 ...get this one twice... a baseline, then again 4 days later after supplementing. if it rises on the 2nd test, you were deficient)

serum copper$59
Vitamin D

24 hour urine copper"
----
Regarding his l

"..so by this chart , Methylation is greatly inhibited (by up to 80%) if you dont have the cofactors needed to producemethionine synthase. you would constantly have to introduce high amounts of SAM-E because the SAH doesnt get recycled back to methionine to naturally produce more SAM-E. now its also beenWELLdocumented that accutance throws off the SAM/SAH balance. so this would fit."

Regarding Tryingtohelp2014's comment above:
Chronically low SAMe would screw up everything in the body. This is probably what messed up our bile flow so much leading to cholestasis. If methylation is not working or it's being used to handle other issues in the body, phosphatidylcholine synthesis via the PEMT enzyme is not stimulated enough leading to thick bile.

Here's an interesting test to see if you are methylating correctly. This comes from Ben Lynch, ND from his recent 2016 Seeking Health Educational Institute Conference:

If you are the type of person who tosses and turns while laying in bed, this test is for you:

Take 250 mg SAMe 20-30 minutes before bed

Then, if you fall asleep like a rock (quickly), your methylation is working. it's good

If SAMe helps you fall asleep more quickly, you are undermethylating

If you fall asleep well, you needed that support. You were undermethylated. The methylation support helped.

If SAMe makes sleep more difficult, you have a methylation block

If your insomnia becomes worse and you become more alert, that indicates the methylation cycle is blocked.

Does not mean you are overmethylated. It just means that your methylation cycle is not working correctly.

SAMe cannot do what it needs to do, which is to work on dopamine and norepinephrine and converting serotonin to melatonin.

If it's blocked, find the cause: is it yeast overgrowth, heavy metals, infection, inflammation, ROS, etc.. clear the MTR blockages.

If SAMe doesn't make a difference, there may be other problems

Other things are at play like elevated glutamates perhaps

You could take magnesium which is a cofactor for COMT

both SAMe and magnesium are cofactors for COMT which helps break down dopamine and norepinephrine.

Take:

B6 (converts glutamate to GABA)

magnesium

niacin (can be very helpful)

phosphatidyl serine

50 mg 5-HTP (can sometimes help. precursor to serotonin. some can't convert to melatonin)

--------------------

More info on how accutane screws up the SAMe/SAH ratio causing methylation imbalances and deficiencies:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/accutane-methylation-block-and-glycine-n-methyltransferase.26042/

post by Rich:
"One of the things Roaccutane (or Accutane or isotretinoin or 13-cis retinoic acid) does is to raise the gene expression of the enzyme glycine N-methyltransferase. This enzyme normally limits the ratio of SAMe to SAH in the methylation cycle. When the activity of this enzyme is increased, the ratio of SAMe to SAH is decreased, and this causes a methylation deficit, so that the many methyltransferase reactions in the body are downregulated. I think this is the connection to ME/CFS. Over the past few years, I have heard from several people who developed ME/CFS after being treated with Accutane. I don't know why this happens to some people, but not to most. I'm aware of one case in which testing indicates that glycine N-methyltransferase has remained upregulated even years after Roaccutane treatment was ended. I don't know why.

Glycine N-methyltransferase is normally inhibited by 5L-methyl tetrahydrofolate, which is a form of folate used in the methylation treatments. If glycine N-methyltransferase is responsive to it, as it normally is, the methylation treatment should downregulate it. In the case I refer to, this doesn't seem to work, and I don't know why. Perhaps there is a genetic polymorphism in glycine N-methyltransferase in some people that causes it to be unresponsive to methylfolate.

-RichVank of Phoenix Rising forum"

"Accutane user:
Per my previous posts, I've taken a Methylation Pathway Panel, which showed a classical methylation block as described by RichVank - depleted GSH, high GSSG, low SAMe, etc.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylation-protocol-depletes-zinc.27950/

long post from Rich, but alot of info
I you want to do some testing to see if what I've described is what is going on in your case, here are the tests I would suggest:

1. The methylation pathways panel offered by Health Diagnostics and Research Institute in New Jersey. It is a blood test, requires an order from a physician or a chiropracter, and costs $295, including the shipper to send the blood samples to the lab. For people outside the U.S., the shipping costs more. The contact info for this lab is pasted below.

2. The Metametrix 40 plasma amino acids test, which is available fromwww.directlabs.comwithout a doctor's order.

In the first test, the levels of SAMe and SAH are the items of special interest, though the panel will also evaluate the status of glutathione and the folate metabolism, which are important in determining ME/CFS.

In the second test, glycine and sarcosine are of most interest.

If the mechanism I discussed is going on, you will see low SAMe, high SAH, low glycine and high sarcosine. If you have ME/CFS, you will likely also have low glutathione.

Here's the contact info for the Health Diagnostics lab:

Health Diagnostics and Research Institute
540 Bordentown Avenue, Suite 2300
South Amboy, NJ 08879
USA
Phone: (732) 721-1234
Fax: (732) 525-3288

Lab Director: Elizabeth Valentine, M.D.


May 19, 2011

by
Richard A. Van Konynenburg, Ph.D.
Independent Researcher
([emailprotected])"

A lot of reading - kudos for your hard work!

another user just private messaged me their results.  they were waiting for other results before posting..   guess what mineral showed up most deficient???   i think this is just a biomarker for how loaded the liver is with whatever is antagonistic/displaces copper.

another thought....  if people feel side effects again from taking high dose TUDCA... maybe the bile is moving enough to put metabolites into the bloodstream, but not enough taurine is left over to conjugate it.  lots of extra  taurine+ tudca/or bile salts.

3 hours ago, tryingtohelp2014 said:

another user just private messaged me their results.  they were waiting for other results before posting..   guess what mineral showed up most deficient???   i think this is just a biomarker for how loaded the liver is with whatever is antagonistic/displaces copper.

another thought....  if people feel side effects again from taking high dose TUDCA... maybe the bile is moving enough to put metabolites into the bloodstream, but not enough taurine is left over to conjugate it.  lots of extra  taurine+ tudca/or bile salts.

Wouldnt a better combination be Tudca along with Calcium D Glucarate??

I'm on those 2 along with MSMnot sure which one is doing it but that 'stoney face' feeling over last few days is improving - feels like my words are coming out easier and facial expression is calmer.

Just hope it isn't the placebo affect that we sometimes get when taking a new product!!

Recent blood test results;

HEAVY METALS
Serum Copper 17 ( 12 - 22 ) considered HIGH by my doctor
Serum Zinc 17 ( 10 - 18 ) considered also to be high by doctor

Vit D 60 ( 50 - 140 ) bit too low for my doctors liking - wants me to supplement
Testosterone 8.2 ( 9.5 - 28.0 ) too low - doctor wants me to supplement

I'm really trying to do too much at once currently, still have my gut testing to be done this month so I will wait before supplementing with Vit D and Testosterone. Currently trying to get results with Tudca, Calcium D Glucarate, MSM and Chinese Bitters.

Second test now in over 10 years where COPPER IS HIGH, not off the charts but none the less HIGH!!!!

Tryingtohelp2014:
"another thought.... if people feel side effects again from taking high dose TUDCA... maybe the bile is moving enough to put metabolites into the bloodstream, but not enough taurine is left over to conjugate it. lots of extra taurine+ tudca/or bile salts."

I agree. It's being mobilized for sure.

@truejustice
Have you ever done an intracellular RBC copper test? That'd be good to get. And the high copper could be oxidized copper possibly which wouldn't mean you are toxic with copper.

Also, I just thought of something. Just because we get a RBC copper test done and it shows normal, does not mean that the copper levels throughout the body are normal. It could be that we are lacking copper primarily in the liver as an example.

Here's a study showing that accutaneprimarily affects the liver with regards to GNMT (not the whole body). Who is to say it doesn't screw up other things only in a localized area like with copper for instance.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12054489
Glycine N-methyltransferase (GNMT) is a key protein in theliverthat functions to regulate S-adenosylmethionine (SAM) and the SAM/S-adenosylhomocysteine ratio. Significant GNMT expression is also present in the kidney and pancreas. Inappropriate regulation of GNMT may have negative consequences on methyl group and folate metabolism. We have demonstrated that retinoid compounds significantly elevated hepatic GNMT activity and abundance (approximately 2-fold) in male rats. However, pancreatic GNMT activity and abundance were not altered by retinoid treatment. Likewise, retinoid administration was without effect on renal GNMT activity. Hepatic GNMT activity was also elevated in female rats treated withall-trans-retinoic acid, but to a lesser extent compared to males. Collectively, these results indicate that the modulation of methyl group metabolism by retinoids is tissue- and gender-specific, and may compromise the availability of methyl groups for SAM-dependent transmethylation reactions. In support of this, SAM-dependent synthesis of creatinine was significantly reduced 21% followingall-trans-retinoic acidtreatment.

By the way, dietary methionine is utilized by the liver for forming SAMe to be utilized for methylation reactions. And more than 85% of methylation reactions take place in the liver. So, if we are deficient in copper there, it would screw up gene expression and silencing like crazy.

---

User who has been taking TUDCA for a couple weeks sent me a msg today saying:
" Also, today I had extreme pain in my joints in hands like when I was on accutane. Something has to be going on."

He also sent me a good study showing TUDCA is just as good as UDCA, if not better.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2036.1997.124295000.x/pdf
"The effects of ursodeoxycholic and tauro-ursodeoxycholic acids were compared in 23 patients with primary biliary cirrhosis according to a crossover design. Both drugs were administered at the INTRODUCTION The beneficial effects of ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA) on clinical and biochemical parameters of liver function in patients with primary biliary cirrhosis have been reported extensively." % Though the mechanism of action of UDCA has not been completely elucidated and the clinical relevance of the improvement of serum liver enzymes is not well established, the biochemical improvement was shown to be closely related to the enrichment of the bile acid pool with this hydrophilic bile acid.& It has been suggested that the hepatoprotective effect of UDCA may be a consequence of its biotransformation into more polar conjugated species, such as glyco- and tauroursodeoxycholic (TUDCA) acids,',( which displace Correspondence to: Dr M. Podda, Division of Internal Medicine, Istituto di Scienze Biomediche San Paolo, Via di RudiniU 8, 20142, Milan, Italy. daily dose of 500 mg, in a randomly assigned sequence for two 6-month periods separated by a 3-month wash-out period. Results: Serum liver enzymes related to cholestasis and cytolysis consistently improved, as compared to baseline values, during the administration of both ursodeoxycholic and tauro-ursodeoxycholic acids, but no significant difference between these two bile acids was found. Both treatments were well tolerated and no patient complained of side effects. Conclusion: In the short-term, tauro-ursodeoxycholic acid appears to be safe and at least as effective as ursodeoxycholic acid for the treatment of primary biliary cirrhosis. "

"More recently, TUDCA was shown to be more effective than unconjugated UDCA in increasing liver UDCA concentration and in reducing the formation of lithocholic acid (LCA) in rats."# Furthermore, it has been suggested that in patients with primary biliary cirrhosis, TUDCA displaces endogenous hydrophobic bile acids more efficiently than UDCA."

EDIT:
Here are some copper test results from different users:
[Edited link out]

Does anyone have results to share? I'll add them to the document.

Looks like Joseph Buchignani took Tudca in 2012 and saw success before switching to UDCA. I'm currently taking Tudca, taurine, calcium d glucarate, MSM and a good b vitamin. We've seen other posts on her about people symptoms getting better with Taurine which is supposed to remove retinoids. Tudca has taurine attached.