I'm on my phone so not posting links but here.
19 out of 19 people with hair loss in a study were manganese deficient. Manganese involved in sex hormones. Low manganese could equal ed.there is a bunch of other shit that could link up if you want it to. This enzyme activity maybe stimulated by vitamin a still? That's why some of us notice a type of positive boost from vitamin a supplement?

37 minutes ago, oldschoolplz said:

See now copper is giving this guy ED I just don't think it's a supplementation thing I think that makes it worse BTW I've tried nearly every supplement

idk man i might have jumped the gun on this. i deleted this comment.

Update. I'm working outside my eyes once again feel very moisturized. Took 4mg of copper this morning but I still took Singulair last night. When I get back to my house I stop decongesting and my eyes feel bad again. I need my nose to still be able to drip and decongest inside my house. So 2 things it's an indicator that I still need more copper in my system. I might be having an abnormal reaction to allergies. I have 2 cats and a dusty house. Allergic to both. Or its just straight up allergies and has nothing to do with copper. But copper can make my nose run like crazy. Just not inside my house yet. Also getting slight pains in my ears. I believe this is a good thing as it might be breaking up long impacted mucus

On 29/2/2016 at 9:25 PM, MATT2399 said:

Just to add in here, following accutane i had ED at 19 years old. I am now 27 years old. Testosterone injections of 500mg per week, testosterone level of around 3000, range was around 300-1200, works for only the first 3 months then like any supplement...Tolerance. Although i had libido its useless without the use of high doses of viagra which i also got hold off. I will also add i did weight training during this time and after the initial couple months i made no gains after, if i did it was very little i did not notice, no matter how much i ate, just fat accumulation.

I was on for 4 years straight. Now i been off for year and half, libido is shot and erections i would have to be dreaming.

My input for anyone thinking of going this route.

EDIT: Guiterman01 you got me to edit this post as i just read your post where you took a huge dose of probiotic how come you have not followed up or stopped, oil production is a good sign.

For everything i have tried over the years the health of the gut is what has made the most difference, day and night difference

I also suffer from ED , low libido at age 20 , now 27 years old. My testosterone levels are perfect . I think that hormone therapy is useless? specifically what worked for you ?

The effects of copper and on retinoids

(not sure if tryingtohelp posted this yet)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17433458
While whole body retinoid levels in control zebrafish decreased during the experiment, females exposed to Cu(copper) 200 days or more experienced additional losses of retinyl esters (45-100% depleted)
internal retinoid stores were depleted in adults

2 years passed since my last pill. I took 40mg/day for two months in 2014 Jan/Feb..
This is the list of my problems:
-ED: Still no connection between penis and brain. Improved maybe %40 where I can achieve an erection but sensation got worse. I used to be very horny, now I am half the man I used to be (good song btw). My flaccid state is horrible. My orgasms got worse where I dont feel anything during ejaculation.
- Tinnitus: still there
- Vision problems: floaters are gone by 90%. But I am still night blinded and have some visual snow and double vision. Not a big deal, can live with these.
- Tremors: gone by 99%
- Weak urine: still bothering me but ok.
- Hair: still thin and dry and I lost lots of hair, but I am still not bald and it stopped.
- Dry eyes, nose, mouth: I never had these, it is interesting that some sympthoms are not the same.
- Panic attacks, anxiety, suicidal state: gone, I feel depressed sometimes but mental I am pre-accutane
- Energy: Better %70
- Flexibility: I feel like an old man, I dont prefer to yawn. It hurts. But improved %40
- Stomach: my new problem, reflux and gastrit started 6-7 months ago.

Overall I am Ok. Soon I will start gym, I feel I can do it : )
But my biggest problem is the absence of libido. I just dont have it. When I see an attractive woman, i know that she is hot but I don't feel it. I want to feel like a man again. I think I will try Clomid and see if it works.

Manganese health benefits include support of brain function, production of sperm and sex hormones, enhanced libido, and maintenance of sexual health. This essential trace mineral is especially critical in supporting cognitive facilities and functions, including nerve activities, emotional stabilities, and retaining memories.
[Edited link out]

I got this coming tomorrow. might as well try it. it is one of the few that maybe noone else has.
Manganese actually means "magic". so there you go, here is our magic pill.

12 minutes ago, oldschoolplz said:

Has anyone else honestly given up on this? I don't think there is a solution or a way to reverse Accutane after studying it and following for hope for so long... When I boils down to it I can't even have relationships or anything anymore

nope. dont give in to the dark side. things are way up and down for me like dry eyes, ed, hair loss , mental health. but what this also tells me is this isnt permanent. and have you looked at my last couple post about manganese? lol yea its prob not it either. but you got to give things a little bit of a chance. and a little bit of patience, i feel very close to my old self just controlling my allergies. i think their are still a few things to look at. ill let you know when to throw in the towel.

im also going to be looking at taking high dose ecentric coated pancreatin enzymes. il be taking this with a protein shake with high fat milk and some carbs. i think alot of us have problems with fat absorption which is the bodies main source of energy, even efa pills or oils we seem to have problems with.

On 3/2/2016 at 3:34 PM, guitarman01 said:

The effects of copper and  on retinoids

(not sure if tryingtohelp posted this yet)
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17433458
While whole body retinoid levels in control zebrafish decreased during the experiment, females exposed to Cu(copper) 200 days or more experienced additional losses of retinyl esters (45-100% depleted)
 internal retinoid stores were depleted in adults
 

yes i posted this a few weeks ago.   And guitarmann, the higher the dose of copper you take, the less gets absorbed.
small doses , away from food.

here is a post by a "professional" researcher...

Johannah Bailie, Beavercreek, OH, United States , January 16, 2014 at 1:48 PM| Reply [Link removed] 

1 hour ago, tryingtohelp2014 said:

yes i posted this a few weeks ago.   And guitarmann, the higher the dose of copper you take, the less gets absorbed.
small doses , away from food.

here is a post by a "professional" researcher...

Johannah Bailie, Beavercreek, OH, United States , January 16, 2014 at 1:48 PM| Reply 

I've tested deficient in copper by hair, blood serum and ceruloplasmin tests (also muscle-testing), as well as having symptoms of copper deficiency (slimness, easily-ruptured blood vessels, severe anemia, underactive thyroid, tender skin and scalp, breast atrophy due to estrogen loss...). I found that within a week or so of supplementing with fish-oil sourced vitamin A (at ~100% DV) my teeth became very sensitive (I mentioned recent tooth sensitivity to my dentist a couple weeks into my supplementation), and by my dentist appointment 6 months later, I had developed 3 cavities! I've had almost no cavities in my adult teeth, so this was a huge shock to me! I took the vitamin A for about 3 months total (after seeing the estrogen-deficiency issues and shortening of time between monthly cycles) not realizing the source of the problem (realized this after-the-fact when reviewing my note-keeping - I'm a research scientist by schooling and profession before marriage and home-making). Anyway, in my studies on copper-deficiency, I learned that copper and vitamin A are antagonistic and stored in the liver in an inverse relationship (high copper, low vit. A, & vice versa). When supplementing with vitamin A, excess copper is released from the liver (possibly other organs, also?) - resulting in higher serum concentrations of copper (likely contributing to darkening of grey hair). After reading the book "Cure Tooth Decay", and with some caution when considering the high vitamin A content of FCLO, I thought I'd see how I did with FCLO toward healing my 3 new cavities! Unfortunately, after about 6 weeks on the FCLO (1/2 tsp/day), my tooth sensitivity and hormone issues increased! What a bummer! (FYI - no significant supplement differences between trials). Anyway, I've learned that high fat-soluble vitamin A intake isn't for everyone - especially those deficient in copper! FYI: copper deficiency is considered to be rare (usually due to gut malabsorption and/or zinc overdose), while copper toxicity is considered to be extremely common (due to poor/SAD diet, high stress...). For more info on copper, the article "Nutritional Relationships of Copper" by David Watts is a good read. 

.....  my note:   this release of copper from the liver by accutane is confirmed by the 400% rise in ceruloplasmin, and the 321% rise in copper anime oxidase .

and then a quote from David Watts

" Nutrients Synergistic to Copper Rarely does a single nutrient deficiency develop exclusively. Other nutritional deficiencies and excess are always involved. Referring to figure 1 and 2, we can see the potential of vitamin and mineral toxicity that can develop in the presence of copper deficiency. As an example, the need for vitamin A, C, B6, B3, and B5 is reduced in a copper-deficient state. Conversely, hypervitaminosis of most of these vitamins can be reduced by supplying adequate amounts of copper. We can see particularly that the adverse effects of hyper-vitaminosis A can be decreased by copper supplementation "
http://www.traceelements.com/Docs/The%20Nutritional%20Relationships%20of%20Copper.pdf

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/22/8/1017.extract
mentions excess vitamin A and mucous formation

copper and tyrosine make something that looks like this

Great post on copper and relationship with vit A. The problem I have is, I got a hair mineral test done resulting in high copper content in my body, so I tried to treat with what my kineisiologist said ie zinc, moly zinc manganese etc. It didn't work, I tried these things but didn't feel any different.

I've posted about this here recently and had some people tell me that I have a copper deficiency not excess copper!!?
They guarantee that it's all a deficiency, surely there are people who can have excess copper?? Why would the tests be wrong?

so which one is it? I've taken moly zinc in the past to get rid of copper and currently over last few days I'm supplementing copper - It's all too confusing

26 minutes ago, TrueJustice said:

Great post on copper and relationship with vit A. The problem I have is, I got a hair mineral test done resulting in high copper content in my body, so I tried to treat with what my kineisiologist said ie zinc, moly zinc manganese etc. It didn't work, I tried these things but didn't feel any different.

I've posted about this here recently and had some people tell me that I have a copper deficiency not excess copper!!?
They guarantee that it's all a deficiency, surely there are people who can have excess copper?? Why would the tests be wrong?

so which one is it? I've taken moly zinc in the past to get rid of copper and currently over last few days I'm supplementing copper - It's all too confusing

 

 kineisiologist have absolutely no idea what accutane does.   hair analysis is junk.  when you think about it, if accutane kicks out things from the liver and into serum, the hair analysis should be high!?  if i were you, i would stop taking everything for a week, and get tested.

13 hours ago, Ruvik said:

I also suffer from ED , low libido at age 20 , now 27 years old. My testosterone levels are perfect . I think that hormone therapy is useless? specifically what worked for you ?

Anabolics dont work it masks the problem then your body goes back to baseline, it worked for 3 months after that i took viagra when needed and carried on injecting untill i quit almost 2 years ago i went up to 1g of test and 400mg of masteron (dht) both compounds per week i had a gf which is why i stayed on for so long your body builds tolerance until i stopped seeing her else i would have to break it to her that my dick doesn't work even with everything and the viagra.

I have no idea i have taken so many hard hitting drugs speed, cocaine, dopamine agonists for over 3 years, deprynl and PEA combo a legal high equivalent to meth (3 months straight very little sleep) my brain chemistry is completely different. My gaba system is completely tanked although it is now better after 2+ years off all drugs.

I still cant drink alcohol without some kind of nicotine to calm me down, i dont get drunk or tired just very happy and hyperactive lasts all night, then i ache and cant sleep mind racing which can last up to 2 days with zero sleep, not worth it the lack sleep after is too much

I found this forum year and half ago, i got led by someone on here to look up dr robert morse on youtube, since then i have turned my life around.

I now eat a raw food diet mostly berries, i have done water fasts up to 18 days and dry fasts up to 4 days, i have quit all drugs, smoking and injections to the point i do not even brush my teeth with store bought toothpaste anymore due to fluoride, i make my own with coconut oil and mint extracts.

The fasting makes me bedridden after 3 days every time, i stick it out. Then i come to a point anywhere from 12-18 days where my right hand starts cramping up and i get tingling and stabbing pains all over my body, and i get a massive adrenaline dump and i swear its like all my happy chemicals in my brain just tank instantly and my body feels like its full of acid, i have tried to hold it in the past for 3 days (i decided on these occasions to wait it out and if i die then so be it) to see if it passes but it doesn't let up and gets worse and theres no way to describe it but it feels like each time i hold it i am going to die if i do not break the fast at that moment. Detox reaction or i get deficient in something i am not sure. As soon as the fast is broken i am immediately better and back to my usual state of mind in around 3 days.

EDIT: I have ate raw food for the last 2 years with alcohol and smoking on the weekends (i have stopped recently 2 months and counting)and have not been sick or had a cold since, i used to have flu and cold every month this was even before accutane, only thing since i hadto seek help for was tooth abscess where a wisdom tooth is coming through

As of now I am better, far from cured though, i still cant get erections naturally.

I really think the answer lies in the bigger picture. We are made up of 98% bacteria, fix that and the 2% will fix itself. I do not think probiotics (hand picked discovered strains in a bottle)

Life its all too complex to figure out at this point. Not even a raw diet is enough its been hybridized and tampered with fruit and veggies we see now do not look or was even around 200 years ago not to mention all the bacteria is now washed and killed off with chemicals, we are all so scared of bacteria yet wild animals have no problem and thrive on it, they eat the dirt when deficient and sick. Recently my thoughts are to go back to what makes everything in nature and life grow? The bacteria and nutrients in the soil its where all life starts, its all the correct bacteria nutrients together in the correct ratios.

Am i saying to go out in the garden and eat a cup full of soil where life is sprouting from and get the micro-biome and all the bacteria strains and nutrients that have not been discovered in us to heal? Its pretty out there but its where the latest research is heading look it up

Life is too complex to figure out, the more we intervene with everything in nature the worse it gets look around you, the people and animals who are the closest to nature are the healthiest they dont get "diseases"

We eat plastic, glue (grains, starchy vegetables), dead rotting meat, inhale unnaturaltoxic fumes everywhere we go aka cigarettes, fumes from a car all unnatural and we wonder why people are getting sick and dieing from diseases and it only gets worse the more we go on. Yet consuming earth where life grows is thought as weird..Yet over the pfssolve forum you guys paying to have other peoples stools shoved up in there colons to get some of that goodbacteria and they feel cured then theyrevert back to what they were doing and post back it does not work and they are back to square one.

Stop looking at the symptoms and look at the body as a whole if we get dry hair we do not put oil on it and go well its now oily i cured that. Sugar feeds cancer, yet fruit has ridden cancer which has tons of a sugar but its the fruit in correct ratios of nutrients and minerals ect that we do not know about yet thatheals.Get the whole body healthy its not the food that we need its the healthy stuff in the food that is what helps the most (some discovered, some not). Yet we kill all the good bacteria on the food and replaced with bacteria killing chemicals and god knows what else it destroys into our bodies everyday and that is our "raworganic' food where even thatworks for some people or recoveries that have happened and stayed cured have this incorporated, there diet had changed to a healthier one.

EDIT: I am still toying with idea of consuming soil (not in a bag from a shop) getting a cup and getting some from where nature is growing and flourishing and having it with food, if i had my way i would eat natural grown food from the earth without the bacteria killing chemicals and eat the dirt and bacteria on the food as intended, but i live in the city and do not have that option right now

EDIT 2: Well would you look at that http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10595

Maybe you guys should eat somedirt, its the one supplement thats natural and you do not have to spend any money, what have you got to lose, or spend a ton of money onprobiotics and im talking a lot to override the bad bacteria so it can kill the bad bacteria.

We have trillions upon trillions of bacteriaapparently, probiotics i see only have 10 billion ofone or five strains (that we have only now discovered)

Received my gut flora/parasitology results today. Some things are slightly unexpected - i.e. no parasites detected, which Im actually a little surprised about, but as expected my beneficial bacteria panel is pretty terrible (these should ideally all be 4+)..

Beneficial Bacteria

• Lactobacillus species = NG (No Growth)
• Escherichia coli = NG
• Bifidobacterium = 4+

Additional Bacteria

• alpha haemolytic Streptococcus = 1+
• Citrobacter species = 4+
• Haemolytic Escherichia coli = 4+

Bearing in mind Ive been taking an (apparently) decent probiotic containing lactobacillus for 8 months prior to this test (I stopped all probiotics 2 weeks prior to testing as per instructions), but it would seem to indicate that species is just completely wiped out, and the probiotic I've been taking has not been enough to get it to recolonise in my gut. I will likely have had that species all my life.

The fact that my tests show no growth of this, is in line with the 1 other guy on here whose had this tested, and 100% of the PFS guys too..

There are probably other many other strains that are potentially wiped out too, but many are not even known.

From the commentary on my report;

The "friendly bacteria", Lactobacilli and Bifidobacteria, are important for gastrointestinal function, as they are involved in vitamin synthesis, natural antibiotic production, immune defense, digestion, detoxification of pro-carcinogens and a host of other activities. Reestablishing healthy levels of Lactobacilli may be desirable. E. coli have been noted at less than ample amounts in dysbiosis, and often rebound when intestinal imbalances are corrected.

Few other surprises are no lactoferrin detected, and no cholesterol. I'll have a full review of the report later when I'm back from work.

Alan is back, yay.

17 minutes ago, oldschoolplz said:

I just wanted to say that this is a great posting. Everyone should look into raw milk

1 hour ago, oldschoolplz said:

I just wanted to say that this is a great posting. Everyone should look into raw milk

Its more natural then most stuff we consume, but you have to wonder what was the first human thinking when he thought he would drank milk from a cow, sheep, goat, did he use his mouth to get that milk. Not very natural is it, i doubt any wild animal would let you get near it to get a taste that animal must of had quite the wtf moment...

If not the soil that should be on our food if its too out there.Maybe try this coconut yogurt mixed with prebiotics/probiotics...this guy is way out there and if you research which i have been today on what he says the latest research you will find there is a strong correlation. Nearly all serotonin and over half of the dopamine in the body is produced in the gut.

1 hour ago, tanedout said:

Received my gut flora/parasitology results today. Some things are slightly unexpected - i.e. no parasites detected, which Im actually a little surprised about, but as expected my beneficial bacteria panel is pretty terrible (these should ideally all be 4+)..

Beneficial Bacteria

• Lactobacillus species = NG (No Growth)
• Escherichia coli = NG
• Bifidobacterium = 4+

Additional Bacteria

• alpha haemolytic Streptococcus = 1+
• Citrobacter species = 4+
• Haemolytic Escherichia coli = 4+

Bearing in mind Ive been taking an (apparently) decent probiotic containing lactobacillus for 8 months prior to this test (I stopped all probiotics 2 weeks prior to testing as per instructions), but it would seem to indicate that species is just completely wiped out, and the probiotic I've been taking has not been enough to get it to recolonise in my gut. I will likely have had that species all my life.

The fact that my tests show no growth of this, is in line with the 1 other guy on here whose had this tested, and 100% of the PFS guys too..

There are probably other many other strains that are potentially wiped out too, but many are not even known.

From the commentary on my report;

The "friendly bacteria", Lactobacilli and Bifidobacteria, are important for gastrointestinal function, as they are involved in vitamin synthesis, natural antibiotic production, immune defense, digestion, detoxification of pro-carcinogens and a host of other activities. Reestablishing healthy levels of Lactobacilli may be desirable. E. coli have been noted at less than ample amounts in dysbiosis, and often rebound when intestinal imbalances are corrected.

Few other surprises are no lactoferrin detected, and no cholesterol. I'll have a full review of the report later when I'm back from work.

This just adds up to everything i just posted and your results are in line with what he recieved with this guy who says he is now cured from pfs if you did not see this ill post the link where he explains whats up and why

The link i posted in my above post http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10595

6 hours ago, tanedout said:

Received my gut flora/parasitology results today. Some things are slightly unexpected - i.e. no parasites detected, which Im actually a little surprised about, but as expected my beneficial bacteria panel is pretty terrible (these should ideally all be 4+)..

Beneficial Bacteria

• Lactobacillus species = NG (No Growth)
• Escherichia coli = NG
• Bifidobacterium = 4+

Additional Bacteria

• alpha haemolytic Streptococcus = 1+
• Citrobacter species = 4+
• Haemolytic Escherichia coli = 4+

Bearing in mind Ive been taking an (apparently) decent probiotic containing lactobacillus for 8 months prior to this test (I stopped all probiotics 2 weeks prior to testing as per instructions), but it would seem to indicate that species is just completely wiped out, and the probiotic I've been taking has not been enough to get it to recolonise in my gut. I will likely have had that species all my life.

The fact that my tests show no growth of this, is in line with the 1 other guy on here whose had this tested, and 100% of the PFS guys too..

There are probably other many other strains that are potentially wiped out too, but many are not even known.

From the commentary on my report;

The "friendly bacteria", Lactobacilli and Bifidobacteria, are important for gastrointestinal function, as they are involved in vitamin synthesis, natural antibiotic production, immune defense, digestion, detoxification of pro-carcinogens and a host of other activities. Reestablishing healthy levels of Lactobacilli may be desirable. E. coli have been noted at less than ample amounts in dysbiosis, and often rebound when intestinal imbalances are corrected.

Few other surprises are no lactoferrin detected, and no cholesterol. I'll have a full review of the report later when I'm back from work.

very interesting. congrats for actually getting tested and posting.

Now a possible theory *eyes roll* hear me out though. the PFS people report being cured by taking two different antibiotics and then a strong VSL #3. And you report NO parasites. so.... why dont the Lactobacillus grow?

1. An overcrowding of harmful bacteria and killing of beneficial bacteria due to the 4-6 month retinoic acid bath we put ourselves thru. Even after stopping treatment, the bad bacteria took a foothold, and will not allow, or have a place for the lactobacillus to grow. downing probiotics wont do any good if the gut is already jammed with bad stuff. So the PFS people take a antibiotic cocktail to open up some room.

2. now another possible cause is the copper depletion theory. copper is known for antibacterial properties. i wont control c/v a million articles on copper and lactobacillus. just this first study .....

High dietary Cu is added into the poultry diets to prevent disease and improve growth performance, which may replace antibiotics due to the concerns about antibiotic resistance bacteria. Some researchers did observe that high dietary Cu affected intestinal microbiota profile and reduced the growth of pathogenic bacteria in birds (Xia et al., 2004;

The in vivo experiment determined the effects of 187.5 mg/kg of Cu from Cu Sul or TBCC on ileal microbiota by bacterial enumeration by culture and PCR combined with denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) and growth performance in broilers fed standard industry diets and raised in floor pens with recycled litter. Based on its reported growth-promoting property, we hypothesized that high dietary Cu may selectively inhibit some bacteria, such asE. coli, and stimulate beneficial bacteria, such as lactobacilli.

"stimulate beneficial bacteria, such as lactobacilli."

.....
but what separates us from the PFS crowd is.... i cant find how propecia drains copper like accutane does. maybe thats why they have such few symptoms..where ours are broad? The bottom line for me is...without replacing the copper, bad bacteria normally held in check might not be inhibited, and not allow a probitic only approach. and say you did go the route of the PFS people, and did a antibiotic cocktail and VSL.... how does that cure a copper deficiency? maybe over time allowing nutritional absorption? but maybe easier to relapse?

tl/dr 1 accutane depletes copper--->bad bacteria take over---->poor gut and nutritinal health ---> Candida/SIBO/ IBS/Crohns ---> permanent vitamin A/copper imbalance.

1 hour ago, tryingtohelp2014 said:

very interesting. congrats for actually getting tested and posting.

Now a possible theory *eyes roll* hear me out though. the PFS people report being cured by taking two different antibiotics and then a strong VSL #3. And you report NO parasites. so.... why dont the Lactobacillus grow?

1. An overcrowding of harmful bacteria and killing of beneficial bacteria due to the 4-6 month retinoic acid bath we put ourselves thru. Even after stopping treatment, the bad bacteria took a foothold, and will not allow, or have a place for the lactobacillus to grow. downing probiotics wont do any good if the gut is already jammed with bad stuff. So the PFS people take a antibiotic cocktail to open up some room.

2. now another possible cause is the copper depletion theory. copper is known for antibacterial properties. i wont control c/v a million articles on copper and lactobacillus. just this first study .....

High dietary Cu is added into the poultry diets to prevent disease and improve growth performance, which may replace antibiotics due to the concerns about antibiotic resistance bacteria. Some researchers did observe that high dietary Cu affected intestinal microbiota profile and reduced the growth of pathogenic bacteria in birds (Xia et al., 2004;

The in vivo experiment determined the effects of 187.5 mg/kg of Cu from Cu Sul or TBCC on ileal microbiota by bacterial enumeration by culture and PCR combined with denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) and growth performance in broilers fed standard industry diets and raised in floor pens with recycled litter. Based on its reported growth-promoting property, we hypothesized that high dietary Cu may selectively inhibit some bacteria, such asE. coli, and stimulate beneficial bacteria, such as lactobacilli.

"stimulate beneficial bacteria, such as lactobacilli."

.....
but what separates us from the PFS crowd is.... i cant find how propecia drains copper like accutane does. maybe thats why they have such few symptoms..where ours is broad? The bottom line for me is...without replacing the copper, bad bacteria normally held in check might not be inhibited, and not allow a probitic only approach. and say you did go the route of the PFS people, and did a antibiotic cocktail and VSL.... how does that cure a copper deficiency? maybe over time allowing nutritional absorption? but maybe easier to relapse?

tl/dr 1 accutane depletes copper--->bad bacteria take over---->poor gut and nutritinal health ---> Candida/SIBO/ IBS/Chrohns ---> permanent vitamin A/copper imbalance.

No idea maybe undiscovered undetected strains or parasites are overpowering it from growing and also we need e.coli the rabbit hole goes too deep, just get the micro-biome sorted thats the goal, as said its all too complex. Too much thinking. Sauerkraut, coconut yogurt, maybe an antibiotic while taking these cultered foods, get the good bacteria a fresh base and over power the bad bacteria start eating some dirt, eat raw fruits, NO veggies apart from kale, zuchinni, mushrooms, you dont want starchy vegetables like broccoli, butternut squash, beans, potatoes ect its man made you have to cook to eat its not natural for us to eat it, and obviously no meats, dairy or processed anything.

Maybe if we stop trying to figure it out and we just stop and get out the way, just eat right foods and feed the right bacteria and let it flourish. I have a feeling nature will sort it all out, no man made anything is better or healthier then nature. I really believe the body (bacteria) can heal itself if we stop intervening just give it life and time

23 minutes ago, oldschoolplz said:

Yeah I think about this too, Lol I don't think he had to go as far as using his mouth. It might be less weird when you think about it, we are the only species that is HUMAN, obviously we are different. As weird as it may seem in today's world I would say other things are weirder. We've been doing it forever man plus think and research how many probiotics are in the lively milk. Raw milk is what's up don't believe the FDA that's it's dangerous. It's also illigal in a lot of states. Milk....

Also before thinking dairy is bad or that you may be intolerant everyone that switches to raw says all this goes away. Hint: Raw milk has lactase to digest its lactose sugar.

I thrive on jersey

Well do what you think is best im pretty sure a bucket is to hold the milk is not what nature intended you need to think what did nature give us not what man created and done, because look at us now what a state we are in, i have not had a cold or flu since i went raw. I know first hand that pasteurized milk is mucus forming and is not good for us, raw milk may be different as it may have the correct micro-biome in the raw milk so you can digest, but still its just more theories and thinking why bother

Right now i am buy a load of fruit stop off at a ER dentist as my wisdom tooth is playing up again and is swollen get some strong antibiotics and then eat some dirty unwashed mushrooms, maybe even pick up a pint of soil along the way and have it with my watermelon, cheers!

EDIT: Seems nuts but thats how we are conditioned to think, look up on why animals, kids eat dirt yet get conditoned to stop

someone then tried probiotics ? I would try vls3 , it makes sense ?

14 hours ago, tryingtohelp2014 said:

I found that within a week or so of supplementing with fish-oil sourced vitamin A (at ~100% DV) my teeth became very sensitive

this is true. when i was supplementing high dose vitamin a my teeth became very sensitive.

4 hours ago, MATT2399 said:

This just adds up to everything i just posted and your results are in line with what he recieved with this guy who says he is now cured from pfs if you did not see this ill post the link where he explains whats up and why

The link i posted in my above post http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10595

Yeah that thread is basically what inspired me to get the testing done.

I've had a proper read through my results report now, and another thing that's interesting is my gut pH is a bit higher than optimal (it's 7.2 which is a bit alkaline). 6.7 to 6.9 is supposed to be optimal. From what I've read acidity encourages the growth of beneficial bacteria, including specificallyLactobacillus. I'm not sure what gut pH the other guy on here who got tested came back with, but I wouldn't be surprised if his pH was on the high side too. Fermented foods increase acidity in the gut, so I'll certainly be looking at that.

Also worth noting that guy on the Propeciabelp thread doesn't consider him fully recovered, but 75-80% better which is obviously still good, and he may continue to improve. He also performed a fecal transplant which sounds pretty drastic, yet apparently this is a very effective way to restore gut flora.

Totally agree with you that there are many strains of bacteria and stuff which aren't contained in probiotic supplements (and aren't even known), and there might actually be a lot to be said for taking the more natural route. I'm not sure if you've heard of shilajit, but it's like a tar found in some regions such as the himalayas and contains lots of plant based nutrients. It's one of the few supplements I've not properly tried (I did actually buy some, but it didn't dissolve in water, so was obviously poor quality which was potentially high lead content). Decent stuff has got very expensive, more than twice the price it was a year or 2 ago, but I think I might give this a go.

@tryingtohelp2014That's interesting that copper inhibits some bacteria, but it does say it inhibits e-coli and that's considered a 'beneficial strain' and one that I have no growth of, so not sure if this would imply more copper would be a good thing or bad?

1 hour ago, Ruvik said:

someone then tried probiotics ? I would try vls3 , it makes sense ?

Why not get tested to see what issues you have? The other guy on this thread who got tests done had different issues to me, and he's done the right thing by tackling those (parasite and infection) first, then moved on to tackle the next. If you have parasites you'll want to sort them first off. If you're on Europe or the US you'll be able to get testing done by Genova Diagnostics.

This is the results from the other guy earlier on this thread;

Parasite infection: Dientamoeba Fragilis.
Bacterial Infection: Aeronamas Veronii biovarsobria

So from researching online and according to badbugs.org the only way to get rid of thatspecific parasite infection is to go on a course of antibiotics. The two antibiotics are Idoquionl and doxycycline. The nice thing is the doxycycline also works on the bacterial infection.

My friendly bacteria profile looked like this:

Lactobacillus spp. NG
Escherichia coli. 3+
Bilfdobacterium. NG

NG = No growth

So after taking the antibiotics to kill the infections I started taking probiotics (Garden of Life super strength). I took them for about a month until is was time to retest for the parasite and bacterial infection which required me to stop taking any probiotics 2 weeks before testing. The test also came with a friendly bacteria profile. Both my infectionswere gone. My lactobacillus was at 1+, Esch 3+, Bilfo 3+. I noticed as I was offthe probiotics my head pressure was a bit better. Which lead me into my SIBO treatment which I just finished curing about a week ago.

@tanedoutwhat was your diet before the test