Acne.org Products
Was about to say.... Alan crushed my hope to get better, for so long I have been following this thread for answers, to find a way to get better. I'm not 100% better but I can see and feel improvement. Still have my bad days but more good than bad.
Although I do agree with him that we can't rely entirely on supplements but we also have a healthy diet don't we?
I have plenty of fruit and veg, seafood etc plus use supplements as a helping hand.
12 hours ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:@FchawkHow are you ingesting that many IUs of vit A? Is it supplemental, from liver, cod liver oil, or what?
Also, that paper showed that it would take 1mil IU retinolper day to mimic the side effects of taking 1-2mg/kg per day of accutane. However, how many IUs of synthetic vitamin A are in the actual accutane pills? Does anyone know the conversion of isotretinoin mg to IUs of vitamin A?
I took 80mg of generic accutane (Claravis) for 4 months and 40mg for 1 month. In total, it was 10,800 milligrams of accutane. My weight at the time was 120 pounds or 55kg.
I am taking pre-formed Vitamin A, in the form of retinyl palmitate. Just as when we were having Isotretinoin at levels that caused signs of acute toxicity, I believe that very high dosages of vitamin A a necessary to redistribute the balance, which is what I am checking out at the moment on myself
Also taking some Vitamin D as well, 3000-5000IU,as this reduces the chances of getting toxic effects of vitamin A, and I think an imbalance of these two vitamins, as well as vitamin k, that cause toxic effects of these two vitamins.
As for the conversion it is not directly applicable, for mg of Retinoic Equivalent(RE), 1.5mg=5000 IU, so if Isotretinoin and RE were similar IU it would be 250-300,000 IU, but this is not good science, because like fat is a subset of macronutrients, Isotretinoin(accutane/13 cis retinoic acid) is a subset of retinoic acids.
The only comparison I could make is while have 100% of your diet come from fats would increase weight gain, you wouldn't be able to grow muscle, thus amplifying the caloric surplus/weight gain(symptom of toxicity) part of eating macronutrients(Vitamin A) while negating the muscle growth/repair(symptom of deficiency) part of eating macronutrients(Vitamin A), because you need protein and carbs(retinol, retinyl esters andother retinoic acids) for your body to function properly
It also says here 1-2mg/kg of Isotretinoincan cause the side effects equivalent to 1,000,000 IU of Vitamin A, while still giving symptoms of deficiency
The next days I would try Lithium supplement, because Lithium lowers FoxO3 in high doses. Then I add some tryptophan supplement together with carbs because it passes the blood brain barrier taken with carbs. Higher Serotonergic activity in the brain is associated with lower FoxO's. To this things I add some Velvet antler (High Quality brand), witch contains bioaviable IGF-1 (it is absorbet on the tongue). I also search an PPAR inducer..
@FchawkThanks for the answer. Could you PM me with the exact kind of preformed A you are taking?
Also, you mentioned that once real vitamin A is ingested, other retinoids become mobile and start circulating in the blood
What is your method of eliminating themonce they are circulating? Do you take calcium-d-glucarate or manganese or anything? The main method of excretion is out the bile. I think doing bile flushes would help speed up your treatment. Perhaps you could try it if you start experiencing negative symptoms. If you notice ANYTHING that resembles accutane symptoms coming back, do let us know.
Thanks for runnning this experiment on yourself. Looking forward to the results.
On 12/13/2015 at 12:48 AM, Fchawk said:
You can't get vitamin A toxicity from Beta-Carotene, your body will stop turning it into vitamin A (which is why I don't have it, I want to overwhelm it a little
)
Interesting... I agree with pretty much everything here, taking taurine creatine DHA ,bcaas, colostrum, tudca TMG etc. will improve the health of anyone suffering symptoms. I think while these may bring you to a baseline much closer to the norm of the general populace, so if you took it for a few months you would have few symptoms, and even if you stopped your symptoms that reappeared would be much reduced. However I think they would still reappear (Hope I'm wrong!), and I think the way to take that last step will be to address the underlying issue of the retinoid imbalance that caused all this, and take Vitamin A, along with taurine etc for a few months, which I hope would allow us to get of everything once and for all
Keep in mind that that means I am agreeing with the first few months TTH2014's treatment, and I will have continued to update in a few months when it becomes clear what the results of my treatment are, so you can choose which route to take after that when we have all the facts on the table
thats the problem with accutane....we dont know anymore what the body senses our normal vitamin A levels are at . if it did, it wouldve kicked out the synthetic retinoids years ago. think of a kitchen sink filled up to the top with cement. theres no water in the sink, so normally you would have a lot of room left to fill up with water (beta carotene) yet the slightest amount overflows the sink, even though theres still no water in the sink.
believe me, when i eat a carrot, or a spinach salad, i get pains like im toxic all over again.
On 12/13/2015 at 9:53 AM, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:
On 12/13/2015 at 9:53 AM, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:@Fchawk Thanks for the answer. Could you PM me with the exact kind of preformed A you are taking?
Also, you mentioned that once real vitamin A is ingested, other retinoids become mobile and start circulating in the blood
What is your method of eliminating them once they are circulating? Do you take calcium-d-glucarate or manganese or anything? The main method of excretion is out the bile. I think doing bile flushes would help speed up your treatment. Perhaps you could try it if you start experiencing negative symptoms. If you notice ANYTHING that resembles accutane symptoms coming back, do let us know.
Thanks for runnning this experiment on yourself. Looking forward to the results.
you can take all of the"real" vitamin A you want... if you havent corrected the bile acids or salts, it wont work. youre not pushing anything around. if you correct the fat absorption, then you would have that first in first out mechanism working again. but if you start pushing way too hard (taurine and vitamin A at once) i think theres the possibility of really messing something up... im talking severe liver damage. youre essentually trying to jump-start a car, while pouring gasoline in the carburetor at the same time.
I think our bodies couldve turned the fat absorption part off as a safety valve... thinking, "ok we have all of this synthetic metabolite stored, the the cofactor is all used up to get rid of it... lets shut everything down now."
On 12/13/2015 at 12:53 AM, trantran83333 said:Was about to say.... Alan crushed my hope to get better, for so long I have been following this thread for answers, to find a way to get better. I'm not 100% better but I can see and feel improvement. Still have my bad days but more good than bad.
Although I do agree with him that we can't rely entirely on supplements but we also have a healthy diet don't we?
I have plenty of fruit and veg, seafood etc plus use supplements as a helping hand.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24658997
this guy said he cured himself eat scallops
[Link removed]
but u have to ask why this would work, or even make you feel better. its the nutritional contect of the scallop that makes it different. its loaded with taurine and glycine.
eat your seafood!
I found that too..I have to avoid even foods high in beta carotene now....taking a retinol supplement to test out the theory I was deficient, put me in a hole for a month...although I did notice more hair growth and libido.
17 minutes ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:@FchawkThanks for the answer. Could you PM me with the exact kind of preformed A you are taking?
Also, you mentioned that once real vitamin A is ingested, other retinoids become mobile and start circulating in the blood
What is your method of eliminating themonce they are circulating? Do you take calcium-d-glucarate or manganese or anything? The main method of excretion is out the bile. I think doing bile flushes would help speed up your treatment. Perhaps you could try it if you start experiencing negative symptoms. If you notice ANYTHING that resembles accutane symptoms coming back, do let us know.
Thanks for runnning this experiment on yourself. Looking forward to the results.
The exact type I'm taking is Blackmores 5000 IU tablets, of which I am averaging 20 per day
Early on in my treatment, when I was takign 50,000 IU or less maximum, I was experiencing some accutane symptoms, mainly very dry skin/hair. After a period that normalised again, and when I starting upping the dose to 100,000 IU + I started getting blood noses every day, when I had gone months without any, but that too has normalised. I haven't been takingcalcium-d-glucarate or manganese, but they may speed up the process. I have been relying on whatever the body usually does to process out retinoids, just letting it do it naturally I guess. I am very active so sweating is very common (summer in Australia), and drink plenty of water, nothing special.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/81/3/633.full My theory is that during Isotretinoin (Accutane/13-cis retinoic acid) treatment, itbinds to receptors that should be accepting other retinoids, because although usually such binding is unlikely, the massive concentrations of Isotretinoin cause it to happen creating adverse effects. During accutane therapy, you are ingesting 50 times as much vitamin a as you would usually consume, however, according to the study above, Isotretinoin account for but 0.2% of retinoids in our body at base levels
Now I am going to do some bad science, but bear with me. I could have used better studies, but I am too lazy to try to convert nmol/L to ng/g, seeing mol changes based on the molecule, and I'm not even sure if all retinoids have to same mol, and some data is privately owned... so bah, here we are
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2943822 (Isotretinoin study)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4096526 (unrelated to isotretinoin, but I'm using it as acontrolstudy, even though it is very imperfect seeing they have a skin condition as well...)
These two studies deal with vitamin A derivatives and retinol levels in the skin, and one of them has Isotretinoin.
When Vitamin A is taken, retinol levels in skin increase by 100%, and a specific metabolite of retinol,dehydroretinol,increased by 200%. WhenIsotretinoin was taken, retinol levels (which mainly would have been Isotretinoin) increased by 59%, whiledehydroretinol levels decreased by 80%. In skin, that is reversed after 2-4 weeks, but I feel other organs may be more stubborn in letting go of vitamin A, anyway, the extrapolation I was going to make to being with is the levels of Isotretinoin during treatment in skin get close to total retinol in skin for the average person, thus the level of Isotretinoin in blood may be just as disproportionate, which would be over 100s times larger than base levels basing it off the 1st study I mentioned... Keep in mind that even 10,000IU of Vitamin A can cause noticeable changes of blood levels of retinoids, which is why pregnant women shouldn't supplement. Now keep in mind we are having at least 20 times that as a specific retinoid that is usually only 0.2% of our usual retinoid composition. I'm starting to sound sensationalist, so I'll stop there for speculation
Anyway, thats all I've got today, and its frustrating, seeing for all the good studies I would have to pay for to view the raw data so I might beoff, though I think not by too much. What is conclusive though is that Isotretinoin lowers the levels of other retinoids in blood, and thus everywhere else too(depending on the cell turnover in that organ maybe?), while we are on it.
Ever wonder why they test you for high triglycerides and bad cholesterol while taking accutane?
Retinoic acid represses CYP7A1 expression in human hepatocytes and HepG2 cells by FXR/RXR-dependent and independent mechanisms
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2903807/
Cholesterol 7-hydroxylase (CYP7A1) plays a key role in maintaining lipid and bile salt homeostasis as it is the rate-limiting enzyme converting cholesterol to bile acids. Deficiency ofCYP7A1leads to hyperlipidemia in man and mouse. Hyperlipidemia is often seen in patients when treated with high-dose retinoic acid (RA), but the molecular mechanisms remain elusive.
remains elusive eh? .....
Enhancing effect of taurine on CYP7A1 mRNA expression in Hep G2 cells.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16151615
Taurine has been reported to enhance cholesterol 7alpha-hydroxylase (CYP7A1) mRNA expression in animal models. However, no in vitro studies of this effect have been reported. The Hep G2 human hepatoma cell line has been recognized as a good model for studying the regulation of human CYP7A1. This work characterizes the effects of taurine on CYP7A1 mRNA levels of Hep G2 cells in a dose- and time-dependent manner. In the dose-dependent experiment, Hep G2 cells were treated with 0, 2, 10 or 20 mM taurine in the presence or absence of cholesterol 0.2 mM for 48 h. In the time-dependent experiment, Hep G2 cells were treated with 0 or 20 mM taurine for 4, 24 and 48 h with and without cholesterol 0.2 mM. Our data revealed that taurine showed time- and dose-response effects on CYP7A1 mRNA levels in Hep G2 cells. However, glycine - a structural analogue of taurine - did not have an effect on CYP7A1 gene expression. These results show that, in agreement to previous studies on animal models, taurine induces the mRNA levels of CYP7A1 in Hep G2 cells, which could enhance cholesterol conversion into bile acids. Also, Hep G2 cell line may be an appropriate model to study the effects of taurine on human cholesterol metabolism.
[Edited link out]
In addition to its role in controlling bile acid anabolism, LXR also plays a role in regulating bile acid catabolism. Recent reports indicate that ligand-activated LXRa upregulates human UGT1A3 gene expression through binding to an LXRE-like sequence in the promoter (Barbier et al. 2009). UGT1A3 is one of the most active enzymes for glucuronide conjugation of bile acid. Bile acid glucuronidation allows their conversion into urinary excretable metabolites. Based on these observations, it was proposed that LXRa activation may facilitate definitive cholesterol elimination in the form of urinary bile acid glucuronides. Most bile acids are N-acyl amidates with glycine or taurine to decrease toxicity and increase solubility for secretion into bile (Hofmann 1999). Taurine occurs naturally in many foods and is known to lower cholesterol profiles (Chen et al. 2004, Zhang et al. 2004). Additionally, taurine has been shown to induce CYP7A1 activity thereby increasing bile acid synthesis (Yokogoshi et al. 1999). Interestingly, it has been shown that taurohyodeoxycholic acid can activates the LXRE in the CYP7A1 promoter via LXRa, suggesting that activation of LXR signaling is one mechanism by which taurine activates CYP7A1 activity (Song et al. 2000)
On 12/14/2015 at 12:06 AM, tryingtohelp2014 said:
thats the problem with accutane....we dont know anymore what the body senses our normal vitamin A levels are at . if it did, it wouldve kicked out the synthetic retinoids years ago. think of a kitchen sink filled up to the top with cement. theres no water in the sink, so normally you would have a lot of room left to fill up with water (beta carotene) yet the slightest amount overflows the sink, even though theres still no water in the sink.
believe me, when i eat a carrot, or a spinach salad, i get pains like im toxic all over again.
If your body has vitamin A toxicity, your body shouldn't convert any. When you have vitamin A deficiency, your body will be more efficient at converting it. Perhaps your body has a vitamin A deficiency, but is also incredibly sensitive due to years of deficiency, and thats why you are getting symptoms?
you can take all of the"real" vitamin A you want... if you havent corrected the bile acids or salts, it wont work. youre not pushing anything around. if you correct the fat absorption, then you would have that first in first out mechanism working again. but if you start pushing way too hard (taurine and vitamin A at once) i think theres the possibility of really messing something up... im talking severe liver damage.
Agree to an extent. I don't think the sides hit me as hard as most of you to begin with, and thats why I have felt fine taking the route I have taken, with only relatively small bumps in sides. Also for me it has been only a few years, whereas you may have been decades(?) with low levels of vitamin A, so you may have developed sensitivity. However, the risk of serious long term sides HAS to be nonexistent taking 5-10,000IU of vitamin A per day, because that is due to chronic toxicity, which occurs at 4000IU/ kg/ day for 6-18 months http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/819426-overview .
While acute toxicity can be fatal, millions of IU of vitamin A would have taken in a single sitting, and so single, much reduced dosages, or persistent even further reduced dosages, should not be able to cause damage even if our ability to metabolise is severely impaired.
I'm not saying there may not be benefit to abstaining from fat soluble supplements in the short term, or that you won't get some sides even having single small doses, along the lines of dry skin/ hair/ rash/ nosebleeds, which may be unnecessary if you take your time. I am just saying there is no risk of serious long term effects like liver damage
I think our bodies couldve turned the fat absorption part off as a safety valve... thinking, "ok we have all of this synthetic metabolite stored, the the cofactor is all used up to get rid of it... lets shut everything down now."
Sounds very possible, thus there may be no benefit to taking fat soluble vitamins. By the same token however, there should be no risk as well, except with conjunction of the reintroduction of taurine etc, and even then no risk of long term sides. In my opinion at least
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24658997
this guy said he cured himself eat scallops
[Edited link out]
but u have to ask why this would work, or even make you feel better. its the nutritional contect of the scallop that makes it different. its loaded with taurine and glycine.
eat your seafood!
My responses in bold
On 12/14/2015 at 1:07 AM, tryingtohelp2014 said:Ever wonder why they test you for high triglycerides and bad cholesterol while taking accutane?
Retinoic acid represses CYP7A1 expression in human hepatocytes and HepG2 cells by FXR/RXR-dependent and independent mechanisms
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2903807/
Cholesterol 7±-hydroxylase (CYP7A1) plays a key role in maintaining lipid and bile salt homeostasis as it is the rate-limiting enzyme converting cholesterol to bile acids. Deficiency of CYP7A1 leads to hyperlipidemia in man and mouse. Hyperlipidemia is often seen in patients when treated with high-dose retinoic acid (RA), but the molecular mechanisms remain elusive.
remains elusive eh? .....
Enhancing effect of taurine on CYP7A1 mRNA expression in Hep G2 cells.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16151615
Taurine has been reported to enhance cholesterol 7alpha-hydroxylase (CYP7A1) mRNA expression in animal models. However, no in vitro studies of this effect have been reported. The Hep G2 human hepatoma cell line has been recognized as a good model for studying the regulation of human CYP7A1. This work characterizes the effects of taurine on CYP7A1 mRNA levels of Hep G2 cells in a dose- and time-dependent manner. In the dose-dependent experiment, Hep G2 cells were treated with 0, 2, 10 or 20 mM taurine in the presence or absence of cholesterol 0.2 mM for 48 h. In the time-dependent experiment, Hep G2 cells were treated with 0 or 20 mM taurine for 4, 24 and 48 h with and without cholesterol 0.2 mM. Our data revealed that taurine showed time- and dose-response effects on CYP7A1 mRNA levels in Hep G2 cells. However, glycine - a structural analogue of taurine - did not have an effect on CYP7A1 gene expression. These results show that, in agreement to previous studies on animal models, taurine induces the mRNA levels of CYP7A1 in Hep G2 cells, which could enhance cholesterol conversion into bile acids. Also, Hep G2 cell line may be an appropriate model to study the effects of taurine on human cholesterol metabolism.
[Edited link out]
In addition to its role in controlling bile acid anabolism, LXR also plays a role in regulating bile acid catabolism. Recent reports indicate that ligand-activated LXRa upregulates human UGT1A3 gene expression through binding to an LXRE-like sequence in the promoter (Barbier et al. 2009). UGT1A3 is one of the most active enzymes for glucuronide conjugation of bile acid. Bile acid glucuronidation allows their conversion into urinary excretable metabolites. Based on these observations, it was proposed that LXRa activation may facilitate definitive cholesterol elimination in the form of urinary bile acid glucuronides. Most bile acids are N-acyl amidates with glycine or taurine to decrease toxicity and increase solubility for secretion into bile (Hofmann 1999). Taurine occurs naturally in many foods and is known to lower cholesterol profiles (Chen et al. 2004, Zhang et al. 2004). Additionally, taurine has been shown to induce CYP7A1 activity thereby increasing bile acid synthesis (Yokogoshi et al. 1999). Interestingly, it has been shown that taurohyodeoxycholic acid can activates the LXRE in the CYP7A1 promoter via LXRa, suggesting that activation of LXR signaling is one mechanism by which taurine activates CYP7A1 activity (Song et al. 2000)
Nice find, could probably be summed up with
"We know it fucks you up, but this is the only symptom that can really be pinned on us that has an immediate and noticeable negative effect on your health. Looking up the reason why it fucks you up could open up an entirely new can of worms however, so we will just control the patients for that specific risk factor, so we don't have to deal with everything else, and act oblivious"
13 minutes ago, Fchawk said:
Nice find,could probably be summed up with
"We know it fucks you up, but this is the only symptom that can really be pinned on us that has an immediate and noticeable negative effect on your health. Looking up the reason why it fucks you up could open up an entirely new can of worms however, so we will just control the patients for that specific risk factor, so we don't have to deal with everything else, and act oblivious"
exactly. dont think for a second Roche hasntfigured this out long ago, could open themselves up for lawsuits.
but this is why in 10 years or so, IBM's Watson will be able to solve all disease... or at least be able to specify the very best treatment for each one. it will be able to scour every pubmed, website, journal,message board, heck... even amazon reviews.....and use brute force and make all of these correlations.
5 minutes ago, tryingtohelp2014 said:exactly. dont think for a second Roche hasnt figured this out long ago, could open themselves up for lawsuits.
but this is why in 10 years or so, IBM's Watson will be able to solve all disease... or at least be able to specify the very best treatment for each one. it will be able to scour every pubmed, website, journal, message board, heck... even amazon reviews.....and use brute force and make all of these correlations.
That would be pretty cool, though I imagine they would need some staff to check for outliers
"While most studies point to an average penis length of 5.5 inches, on forums this seems to be closer to 8.4 inches, with an abundance of people claiming lengths in excess of 12 inches..."
But yeah, it would probably also be able to find the risk factors we have, and why most people don't regret the decision. No doubt it would still be prescribed, just not as much, or other supplements to be taken in conjunction... Actually probably they would just give you a diet, and few safe supplements and your acne would just go away without the need for any extreme medication. Off topic haha
12 hours ago, Fchawk said:
I am taking pre-formed Vitamin A, in the form of retinyl palmitate. Just as when we were having Isotretinoin at levels that caused signs of acute toxicity, I believe that very high dosages of vitamin A a necessary to redistribute the balance, which is what I am checking out at the moment on myself
Also taking some Vitamin D as well, 3000-5000IU,as this reduces the chances of getting toxic effects of vitamin A, and I think an imbalance of these two vitamins, as well as vitamin k, that cause toxic effects of these two vitamins.
As for the conversion it is not directly applicable, for mg of Retinoic Equivalent(RE), 1.5mg=5000 IU, so if Isotretinoin and RE were similar IU it would be 250-300,000 IU, but this is not good science, because like fat is a subset of macronutrients, Isotretinoin(accutane/13 cis retinoic acid) is a subset of retinoic acids.
The only comparison I could make is while have 100% of your diet come from fats would increase weight gain, you wouldn't be able to grow muscle, thus amplifying the caloric surplus/weight gain(symptom of toxicity) part of eating macronutrients(Vitamin A) while negating the muscle growth/repair(symptom of deficiency) part of eating macronutrients(Vitamin A), because you need protein and carbs(retinol, retinyl esters andother retinoic acids) for your body to function properly
It also says here 1-2mg/kg of Isotretinoincan cause the side effects equivalent to 1,000,000 IU of Vitamin A, while still giving symptoms of deficiency
Has this had any impact on your night vision? Has loss of night vision been one of the side effects you got from accutane? Also are you taking zinc (which is required for the conversion of retinol to retinal)
According to Schiffs Diseases of the liver (which actually looks very interesting) patients with primary biliary cirrhosis who are suffering from night blindness should take 25,000 UI of vitamin A for 4 to 12 weeks
@Fchawkawesome posts! Thanks for that.
You said you had bloody noses and other accutane symptoms in the beginning of your new therapy but they went away after you normalized - It would be very interesting if you could post a timeline summary of your reaccutanizing therapy with symptoms. Something like this:
2014
dec - started taking 50,000IU retinyl palmitate
2015
jan - noticed dry eyes
feb - bloody noses every few days
mar - bloody noses went away
april
may - upped dose to 200,000IU per day
june - more skin dryness
july - normalized
etc etc etc
2 hours ago, Mike San said:I found that too..I have to avoid even foods high in beta carotene now....taking a retinol supplement to test out the theory I was deficient, put me in a hole for a month...although I did notice more hair growth and libido.
Could you please explain what you mean by "put you in a hole for a month" due to retinol supplementation?
Also, what happens when you ingest beta-carotene?
I like Fchawk's theory that the binding sites are occupied with isotretinoin and we are able to displace it when ingesting new vitamin A.
Makes a lot of sense. Sounds dangerous, but it perhaps could speed up detoxification.
Does anyone know how much vitamin A is stored in the liver vs other places like fat cells? I hope that the majority is in our livers as that is easier to expell. According to my knowledge, it is indeed in the liver (in the hepatic stellate cellsto be exact)
9 minutes ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:
Could you please explain what you mean by "put you in a hole for a month" due to retinol supplementation?
Also, what happens when you ingest beta-carotene?
Sorry for not elaborating on that...
I think I took it for just under a week. It sent me into a deeper depression and gave me insomnia - trouble sleeping for more than 2-3 hours. It took a few weeks to get over that. Everyone's physiology is different though, so don't let my experience count you off.
vitamin adeficiency lead to loss of night vision after just 7 days of accutane therapy. very new study from india july 2015.
took one month of 25k iu of vitamin A to recover night vision.
not sure if this was posted already.
also mentions in first statement, Isotretinoin acts on microbial flora and immunologic processes and inflammation.
so maybe long term effects on the gut (being isotretinoin is non-selective)that effects nutrientabsorption and immune function? maybe we should be looking at probiotics as well? or that vitamin a is needed for a healthy immune system.
1 hour ago, guitarman01 said:vitamin adeficiency lead to loss of night vision after just 7 days of accutane therapy. very new study from india july 2015.
took one month of 25k iu of vitamin A to recover night vision.
not sure if this was posted already.
also mentions in first statement, Isotretinoin acts on microbial flora and immunologic processes and inflammation.
so maybe long term effects on the gut (being isotretinoin is non-selective)that effects nutrientabsorption and immune function? maybe we should be looking at probiotics as well? or that vitamin a is needed for a healthy immune system.
thats gotta be the worst report ever.
1. He was only on accutane for a single week
2. they never even tested his vitamin A levels pre or post treatment
3. it stated that there were only 10 documented nightvision cases associated with accutane. ( there are probably more than 10 active people on this board with decreased nightvision!)
I'm one of those accutane users who developed EXTREMELY poor night vision due to accutane.
Eating LOADS of vitamin A is what restored my night vision. I got it all through food; mainly liver.
Some, as we've seen anecdotally, have major problems with vitamin A & beta-carotene. They cannot handle eating ANY.
We need to examine why the accutane symptomsare exacerbated post-treatment with ingestion of vitamin A.
Does anyone know the mechanism?
Here's an interesting article: "Basic Vitamin A Primer"
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/11/16/vitamin-a-types.aspx
The part about opsin requiring zinc to maintain its structure and function is interesting.
And as one forum user pointed out, it is required for conversion of retinol to retinal.
For those suffering from night blindness, it would be best to eat plenty of liver (vit A) and oysters (zinc).
If using supplements do LOADS of research beforehand.
Hey community,
I am having troubles quoting my original post, but below is my original post a significant ways back:
About a week ago I got a prescription for 5 mg of Cipralex a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI). Cipralex is generally used to treat depression, OCD, and generalized anxiety disorder. I dumped all my nutritional supplements as well. I take one 5mg pill a day now.
After a week of being on anti depressants, and 3 weeks of NoFap (this helps with anxiety as well) I have noticed:
- No more hairloss
- Psoriasis/seb derm is the clearest it has ever been
- Rosacea is almost gone (im also using finacea gel)
- jaw and ankle popping have stopped popping
- skin feels moist
- I ate like shit these past couple days and have had the greatest most rewarding poos of my entire life. srsly.
- I am getting spontaneous erections in the day, and morning wood...my libido is back. (usually anti - depressants can have a lowering libido side effect)
- back pain/shoulder pain lowering it feels like i can hold my head up in a better position
- what I really notice and other friends as well is that my eyes are more "alive"... I no longer have white bumpy lines and dark patches underneath my eyes. I can open them more and I just look younger I think.
- and the best thing I have noticed...NO MORE DAM BRAIN FOG. I am optimistic about my future now...have fun talking to people etc.
I really stress that everyone here look into anti depressants. At first I thought i was in a manic funk from the SSRI, but people have commented on my appearance and my Dad was the one who told me my jaw stopped popping during meals. For me its starting to be happy mind = healthy body. We have been through a lot due to this drug so please look into anti depressants. I'm not claiming them to be a cure for all of our struggles but over the past week i can't believe what is happening to me, i'm almost in tears... it feels like i somewhat have my life back.
After telling my doctor of my accutane sides diminishing, she said that serotonin and collagen production can be linked together. If anyone wants to expand on that feel free = ) .
I will check back in to let you guys know if my symptoms are still diminishing.
Cheers
Firstly I want to apologize for not keeping up with my progress, I did think my life was turning around and because of that this forum started being less and less significant to me. Anyways I am back here, and have caught myself back up.
Yes, the SSRI masked almost all of my symptoms. I ended up increasing the dose to a full 10mg. The symptoms I listed above did not get any better past the first 2 weeks of treatment. They plateaued, and I wanted more improvement. I would still recommend to all users if they want to put themselves first and move past these disgusting sides (temporarily) to go ahead and start treatment on an SSRI. Doctors are very comfortable with these prescriptions, and it is not hard to showcase our depression and anxiety due to this horrible drug. Some light research will also show that long term SSRI usage does not have many concerns.
The reason I stopped treatment was for 2 reasons.
1) I didn't really feel like myself, and always questioned if I would have to be on this drug forever. Well I tested that and until we find a better more reliable cure (taurine looks promising ) it seems like SSRI's are just a nice happy distraction.
2) My libido/ED reached a point where there was tension between the side effect of the SSRI's and the alleviating of accutane stress. I know my ED/libido never reached it's optimal state but it did slightly improve. I am thinking some placebo effect played into this along with the fact that I was new to the NoFap trend (which I also highly recommend).
Anyways I didn't stop at SSRI's. I worked with my doctor (carefully) and ended up trying prescription medication for SNRI's, Clonidine, and Cardevedilol (beta blocker).
The SNRI's felt like a half potent SSRI, and I honestly thought I was losing my sexuality on them.
Clonidine and Cardevedilol both helped me relax significantly, but past that there effects seemed limited. I was really optimistic about the beta blocker, but quickly realized it had very limited potential past the relaxing effects, lowered anxiety and slight boost to sexual drive.
My current regimen is:
Taurine 6g/day
B Complex 50mg/day [I am also looking in to P5P...but tuition is expensive :)]
I can tell you first hand that all the prescription meds I have tried don't match the effects taurine has had on my body. I am at 20 days of 6mg/day and the energy I have is something I have not felt in a long long time. The only side I felt the SSRI was superior to in alleviating was facial redness.
In addition, taurine supplementation rid me of my heart palpitations and white spots on nails (zinc def?)
I would like to stress that with this new found energy it is really important we DO SOME CARDIO!!!!! before the taurine it was difficult to get in a good workout and thus reach the amazing benefits of a really good workout. Now we can, and If you don't believe me just look at how moist your skin feels after a serious run.
Anyways I am really thankful Taurine made its way into this thread and am feeling optimistic! As soon as pot gets legalized in Canada I will be starting RSO treatment as a backup plan.
Cheers
6 minutes ago, Accutazed said:
My current regimen is:
Taurine 6g/day
B Complex 50mg/day [I am also looking in to P5P...but tuition is expensive :)]
I can tell you first hand that all the prescription meds I have tried don't match the effects taurine has had on my body. I am at 20 days of 6mg/day and the energy I have is something I have not felt in a long long time. The only side I felt the SSRI was superior to in alleviatingwas facial redness.
In addition, taurine supplementation rid me of my heart palpitations andwhite spots on nails (zinc def?)
I would like to stress that with this new found energy it is really important we DO SOME CARDIO!!!!! before the taurine it was difficult to get in a good workout and thus reach the amazing benefits of a really good workout. Now we can, and If you don't believe me just look at how moist your skin feels after a serious run.
Anyways I am really thankful Taurine made its way into this thread and am feeling optimistic! As soon as pot gets legalized in Canada I will be starting RSO treatment as a backup plan.
Cheers
excellent man! cardio and weights. i believe this is the second step.
1. have the available co-factors to detoxify (taurine, plus any other PI3K inducers you want to add...Bcaas, TMG, etc etc)
2. lose the fat where it could be stored/or just increase the circulation.
while i believe most of our sides come from whatever is stored or messed up with our livers... i think some of it is stored in our skin, where it still exerts the sebum reduction. i posted a study a long time ago where you could starve yourself of retinoids, and it drops your plasma levels pretty fast, but it doesnt drop the levels in your skin at all. Taurine does migrate to the skin after supplementation.... so that is another hope... that it has the ability to conjugate it all by itself. but i know for a fact, that extreme exercise gets something that was stored back into your bloodstream!
9 hours ago, tanedout said:
Has this had any impact on your night vision? Has loss of night vision been one of the side effects you got from accutane? Also are you taking zinc (which is required for the conversion of retinol to retinal)
According to Schiffs Diseases of the liver (which actually looks very interesting) patients with primary biliary cirrhosis who are suffering from night blindness should take 25,000 UI of vitamin A for 4 to 12 weeks
WhenI took Accutane Night Vision was not a side effect I noticed or remember having. The room I was in for the majority of the treatment never got dark enough that my eyes would have to adjust that much anyway, but if Night Vision is very noticeable or persisted long after the treatment, then I certainly didnt have it
I am taking zinc. Have been taking that for most of the year, but didn't notice anything significant taking just that, though over the course of the year my health did improve.
9 hours ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:@Fchawkawesome posts! Thanks for that.
You said you had bloody noses and other accutane symptoms in the beginning of your new therapy but they went away after you normalized - It would be very interesting if you could post a timeline summary of your reaccutanizing therapy with symptoms. Something like this:
2014
dec - started taking 50,000IU retinyl palmitate
2015
jan - noticed dry eyes
feb - bloody noses every few days
mar - bloody noses went away
april
may - upped dose to 200,000IU per day
june - more skin dryness
july - normalized
Mid October 2015- Started taking Vitamin A at 25,000-50,000 IU/day, along with some vitamin D at 2000-3000IU/day, while already taking zinc and fish oil, and had taken vitamin D in small doses over the course of the year
November - Early November symptoms included noticed included very dry skin and hair, also no acne on back, so much that I didn't shampoo for 4 or so days because there was simply no point. Some rashes that I had off and on for years (low back, inside elbow) went away, not sure if due to vitamin A though. I also felt my mentalstate improved. Bymid November I noticed increased hair growth on my face, and I had probably had 4 nosebleeds in the past week. I was also starting to get a bit more oil production in my face and hair, and got a little bit of acne. Mid November I went to catch up with some friends, and forgot to bring the vitamin A. I didn't get any nosebleeds, skin oil production maybe went down a small bit, hair was normal, overall felt fine. When I got back 5 days later I started again, and took 250,000IU for a few days to catch back up.Once again noticed more acne while I was on it, though only on face, none on back, the rashes I noticed disappeared when i first got on it came back, mental state was good, got 1-2 nosebleeds every day consistently, noticed other body hair growth. Exercise routine I was on was also giving positive results.
December-Rashes went away, acne now nearly completely gone, lower then levels I had before I started treatment, though it is summer, and it generally improves a bit in summer anyway. Started taking creatine and BCAAs about two and a half weeks ago, with that noticed increased libido, as well as thenormal effects of creatine, such as strength gain and increased water retention in muscles, as well as a bit of folic acid and iron supplementation(1 tablet 2-3 times a week), because I thought it couldn't hurt.
9 hours ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:Does anyone know how much vitamin A is stored in the liver vs other places like fat cells? I hope that the majority is in our livers as that is easier to expell. According to my knowledge, it is indeed in the liver (in the hepatic stellate cellsto be exact)
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of vitamin A reserves are stored in your liver, but I dont know the numbers, sorry
The reason chronic toxicity can cause liver damage is because during acute Vitamin A poisoning it binds to receptors that vitamin A isn't supposed to bind to, and during chronic toxicity it isnt at high enough levels to cause symptoms of acute vitamin A in the rest of the body, but the liver is working very hard to gather and process/excrete all the vitamin A, so it is still getting poisoned, though it is very well equipped to deal with it, so it takes 6-15 months of chronic toxicity for the vitamin A to bind to enough places its not supposed to in the liver to cause fibrosis/cirrhosis, and the symptoms become very obvious, such as jaundice and such. Usually after the return to a normal diet the liver recovers on its own if it wasn't too badly damaged
11 hours ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:I'm one of those accutane users who developed EXTREMELY poor night vision due to accutane.
Eating LOADS of vitamin A is what restored my night vision. I got it all through food; mainly liver.
Some, as we've seen anecdotally, have major problems with vitamin A & beta-carotene. They cannot handle eating ANY.
We need to examine why the accutane symptomsare exacerbated post-treatment with ingestion of vitamin A.
Does anyone know the mechanism?
Here's an interesting article: "Basic Vitamin A Primer"
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/11/16/vitamin-a-types.aspx
The part about opsin requiring zinc to maintain its structure and function is interesting.
And as one forum user pointed out, it is required for conversion of retinol to retinal.
For those suffering from night blindness, it would be best to eat plenty of liver (vit A) and oysters (zinc).
If using supplements do LOADS of research beforehand.
Do u eat liver and oystersevery day? Do u cook the oysters?
I have extremely bad night vision.
On 12/12/2015, 11:31:13, tryingtohelp2014 said:probably not the oxalates, probably the 800% vitamin A giving u pains
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2667/2
Do you believe oxalates and salicylates etc are not really that relevant? Im starting to think they are not a huge issue, just a symptom of some underlying factor that might cause u to react to it.
Personally my only issues that im aware of from certain veggies/fruits are histamine (spinach, tomato and avocado for example)and inflammation (potatoes, nutsetc)
Whenever i heal im interested in pressure cooking grains like oats to see if lectins are one of my issues, as thats apparently the only way to destroy them. (All canned beans are pressure cooked before being canned because bean lectins are deadly)
On 12/13/2015, 12:47:05, AlanTookAccutaneWow said:]
ALL you have done here is argue with me, to where I feel like I am basically having a conversation with myself. Food does not turn to electrons, (Who is teaching you kids this funny stuff, although ill admit it does SOUND believable).Food is digested and either used or stored as energy. A protein carbohydrate transport chain? Yeah,Ok! Take a look at your muffler bearings while were "on topic" here.
Oh im so sorry that through my efforts of trying to bring something to the table, I have not done that at all. Yeah RIGHT, You know that I have provided my heart on this, and there is nothing wrong with that, ya grinch.
Id be dead if i didn't eat in the sun for two weeks? MAYBE.Thanks for the pointer?
Fasting does NOT harm you in the long run, You should probably rest more when you fast, and be aware that life will go into a sort of "Slow motion" if you will, there is not a medical definition or consequence to this, its just how it is!
Take your brainwash somewhere else please.
Dude, just fucking read some biology and chemistry. Our entire body is just electrons etc.
THE WAY WE CREATE ENERGY FROM FOOD IS THROUGH THE ELECTRON TRANSPORT CHAIN THAT MAKES ATP. Digestion happens prior to that lol..
Excess ATP is what leads to fat gain. All the macronutrients turn to electrons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_transport_chain
I said theres no such thing as a protein or carbohydrate transport chain, but there is an electron transport chain. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26882/
Fasting will harm you in the long run, good luck being deficient in all macro and micronutrients. Fasting is amazing every now and then but you cant live on fasting and sunlight.
" The proteins, lipids, and polysaccharides that make up most of the food we eat must be broken down into smaller molecules before our cells can use themeither as a source of energy or as building blocks for other molecules. The breakdown processes must act on food taken in from outside, but not on the macromolecules inside our own cells. Stage 1 in the enzymatic breakdown of food molecules is thereforedigestion, which occurs either in our intestine outside cells, or in a specializedorganellewithin cells, thelysosome. (Amembranethat surrounds the lysosome keeps its digestive enzymes separated from thecytosol, as described in Chapter 13.) In either case, the large polymeric molecules in food are broken down during digestion into theirmonomersubunitsproteins into amino acids, polysaccharides into sugars, and fats into fatty acids andglycerolthrough the action of enzymes. After digestion, the small organic molecules derived from food enter the cytosol of the cell, where their gradual oxidation begins. As illustrated inFigure 2-70, oxidation occurs in two further stages of cellularcatabolism: stage 2 starts in the cytosol and ends in the major energy-converting organelle, the mitochondrion; stage 3 is entirely confined to the mitochondrion. "
Stage 3 is what i refer to as the electron transport chain. So the mitochondria can make ATP
You cant preach eating food if you dont know how the body actually uses the food you eat.
And no a doctor did not tell me an SSRI can turn a life around, my doctor says it can make you worse. But a lot of people do benefit from them, and many dont. And yes there are awful side effects, but to some people they dont matter as much as having their mental health back so they can live life, which even with the side effects is better for them. Even some pro athletes became better athletes after taking SSRI's because it reduced their depression and anxiety causing them to perform better on and off the field..
Im not going to further quote you or argue with you, but you need to try to contribute to stuff that helps us. Eating food will not be a cure in itself. You need to also focus on lifestyle and possibly supplements where food and lifestyle falls short. Technology and enviromental modification can also be a huge benefit.
On 12/13/2015, 6:53:06, trantran83333 said:Was about to say.... Alan crushed my hope to get better, for so long I have been following this thread for answers, to find a way to get better. I'm not 100% better but I can see and feel improvement. Still have my bad days but more good than bad.
Although I do agree with him that we can't rely entirely on supplements but we also have a healthy diet don't we?
I have plenty of fruit and veg, seafood etc plus use supplements as a helping hand.
Yes exactly. I never said supps are a cure im just saying you can only get so far with dietary choices. And thats usually never enough for people with severe issues.
So far i dont know of any supps that can really benefit accutane sufferers though, i only know how to optimize the biology. But as pointed out we perhaps have a greater need for taurine and certain other nutrients/aminos.