Ignore Alan. I think he is a paid Troll from Hoffman Laroche. anytime we get closer... the trolls show up to derail the thread.

Propecia and Accutane both inhibit 5ar, but IMO they do it by different mechanisms.
I've heard people having boron and other things to help 5ar, and creatine to help DHT, but I think that accutane sufferers suffer due to a vitamin imbalance, and subsequent changes in how the body metabolises vitamins caused by such large doses of Accutane. In a way I think we accutane side sufferers have a better chance of getting to the root cause of our problems, though it may be easier for propecia sufferers to get rid of their sides. I could be very wrong though, I've spent much more time looking at Accutane

Is there a way to rid the long term depression this drug causes? I took the drug very young. I have all the symptoms that are common. Joint pain, stomach problems and dry skin, dry eyes. I can deal with those side effects I just want relieve from my mind. I'm currently 25 and have been on Effexor, fluoxetine and sertraline for a month. If anything I feel worse. I'm constantly crying everyday out of nowhere and I'm sick and tired of living this way. I pretty much signed up to post this and I'm hoping there's a way to at least scratch the surface of all this. Any response is greatly appreciated.

I get and am also sick of living this way.Despite all of the efforts in the thread nothing adds up to a can of beans with any of it being correct. All we know at this point is that going to the doctor, or messing with things moremight not be the answer, and instead eating true, caveman style meals and food might restore our health over a long period of time. I have seen inprovements, but its not hard for it to be expected with the kind of raw shit i eat LOL. Ive also found a lot of power with fasting. I dont want to be spiritual with you now but if you try it message me. I am about to start another 3 day fast, which is enough for me, about twice a month. Dont fall into the supplimentation talk,of adding more, if anything in a way us accutaners simply need less. Do you have more symptoms to share? Stomach pains or malfunctions?

Is there a way to rid the long term depression this drug causes? I took the drug very young. I have all the symptoms that are common. Joint pain, stomach problems and dry skin, dry eyes. I can deal with those side effects I just want relieve from my mind. I'm currently 25 and have been on Effexor, fluoxetine and sertraline for a month. If anything I feel worse. I'm constantly crying everyday out of nowhere and I'm sick and tired of living this way. I pretty much signed up to post this and I'm hoping there's a way to at least scratch the surface of all this. Any response is greatly appreciated.

my Chinese herbalist once explained that anger, anxiety and depression are cause my your liver not working as it should.

in my case roaccutane damaged my liver.
I lost my relationship and my best friend due to depression and anger. I'd say the liver is the cause, I would look into it if I were you

I was exactly the same as you, I would cry for no reason. Get angry at little petty things. I was going crazy. I wasn't..... ME!

vit D and magnesium helped but I reckon the Chinese medicineare what improvedmy mental state.
I say go find a good Chinese herbalist

holy shit, i just read something about "Angry Liver" I really think im on to something. It ties into a lot ofsymptomsespeciallywith bile flow, TEWL, GNMT, braincells, night blindness, dopamine etc. I cant believe i didnt see this before. its actually pretty simple when you think about it.

accutane upregulates GNMT throwing off our methyl groups. A highly upregulated GNMT depletes methionoine, which in turn depletes TAURINE indirectly by not having the substrate for our bodies to manufature it. Taurine is also needed for fattyacidsynthesis. Taurine keeps the bile liquid preventing Cholestasis.

Glyine and Taurine are the two bile salt conjugates. Accutane gets detoxified by two different ways, 1. through glucurondination, 2. throughtaurine conjugation?! http://cot.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/cot/cotstavita.pdf 19. Vitamin A and derivative compounds can be conjugated in the liver with glucuronic acid or taurine (EVM, 2003; IOM, 2001). as always, follow the money:

http://www.google.com/patents/US4545977

Osmolytes seem to be a big thread in this... they basically introduce water back into the cells that accutane literally dries out.
I keep coming back to the thing we know is true. When your skin dries out from a drug, dry air, or UV radiation... it tries to protect itself with fatty acids and taurine!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1941178

Now it explains here, that accutane (CRA) can be used for methionine toxicity. so wouldnt the opposite be true? wouldnt taking methionine or its ultimate end product taurine help? This is what throws off our SAM/SAH ratio, and why taking methylfolate doesnt seem to help. maybe this is why TUDCA helps maybe this is why the guy cured himself eating nothing but scallops (very high in taurine) and rice. maybe this is why ketogenic diets help (meats are sources of methionine)

Bile acids and Vitamin A homeostasis http://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/3677919/08_diss.pdf

Im focusing on the symptoms and everything needed to eliminate the metabolites.

so far:

Manganese
Glycine
TAURINE
Magnesium
b6 (P5P)
betaine trimethylglycine

get a bulk powder form of Taurine from amazon. take 1.5-2 grams to start in divided does.

http://www.nap.edu/read/1349/chapter/8#79

Retinol circulates in the blood as a 1: 1:1 trimolecular complex with retinol-binding protein (RBP) and transthyretin (TTR) (Goodman, 1984a). RBP is released from the liver in combination with retinol, and the holo-RBP complex combines with TTR in the blood. Subsequently, retinol is slowly metabolized in the liver to numerous products, some of which are conjugated with glucuronic acid or taurine, and eliminated in the bile (Sporn et al., 1984). Of the total retinol metabolized, approximately 70% of the metabolic products appear in the feces and 30% are excreted in the urine. Almost all these excreted products are biologically inactive metabolites. For a more detailed review of retinol metabolism, see Goodman and Blaner (1984).

Night blindness:

Taurine supports the integrity of photoreceptors necessary for night vision^{2, 3}, in a process known as rhodopsin regeneration. Rhodopsin is the primary pigment in photoreceptor rods and so vision in low-light conditions is supported. It also helps to protect cell membranes from free radical damage and helps to remove toxins and debris.⁴Taurine is found in the photoreceptors at levels ten times greater than other amino acids.⁵

TEWL andproteinmis-folding

http://www.in-cosmetics.com/RXUK/RXUK_InCosmetics/2015-Website/Documents/in-cos15, IS, T3,D3, Unlock the power of nature, Piera M. Pericu.pdf?v=635664145578959704

Is there a way to rid the long term depression this drug causes? I took the drug very young. I have all the symptoms that are common. Joint pain, stomach problems and dry skin, dry eyes. I can deal with those side effects I just want relieve from my mind. I'm currently 25 and have been on Effexor, fluoxetine and sertraline for a month. If anything I feel worse. I'm constantly crying everyday out of nowhere and I'm sick and tired of living this way. I pretty much signed up to post this and I'm hoping there's a way to at least scratch the surface of all this. Any response is greatly appreciated.

my Chinese herbalist once explained that anger, anxiety and depression are cause my your liver not working as it should.

in my case roaccutane damaged my liver.
I lost my relationship and my best friend due to depression and anger. I'd say the liver is the cause, I would look into it if I were you

I was exactly the same as you, I would cry for no reason. Get angry at little petty things. I was going crazy. I wasn't..... ME!

vit D and magnesium helped but I reckon the Chinese medicineare what improvedmy mental state.
I say go find a good Chinese herbalist

holy shit, i just read something about "Angry Liver" I really think im on to something. It ties into a lot ofsymptomsespeciallywith bile flow, TEWL, GNMT, braincells, night blindness, dopamine etc. I cant believe i didnt see this before. its actually pretty simple when you think about it.

accutane upregulates GNMT throwing off our methyl groups. A highly upregulated GNMT depletes methionoine, which in turn depletes TAURINE indirectly by not having the substrate for our bodies to manufature it. Taurine is also needed for fattyacidsynthesis. Taurine keeps the bile liquid preventing Cholestasis.

Glyine and Taurine are the two bile salt conjugates. Accutane gets detoxified by two different ways, 1. through glucurondination, 2. throughtaurine conjugation?! http://cot.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/cot/cotstavita.pdf 19. Vitamin A and derivative compounds can be conjugated in the liver with glucuronic acid or taurine (EVM, 2003; IOM, 2001). as always, follow the money:

http://www.google.com/patents/US4545977

Osmolytes seem to be a big thread in this... they basically introduce water back into the cells that accutane literally dries out.
I keep coming back to the thing we know is true. When your skin dries out from a drug, dry air, or UV radiation... it tries to protect itself with fatty acids and taurine!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1941178

Now it explains here, that accutane (CRA) can be used for methionine toxicity. so wouldnt the opposite be true? wouldnt taking methionine or its ultimate end product taurine help? This is what throws off our SAM/SAH ratio, and why taking methylfolate doesnt seem to help. maybe this is why TUDCA helps maybe this is why the guy cured himself eating nothing but scallops (very high in taurine) and rice. maybe this is why ketogenic diets help (meats are sources of methionine)

Bile acids and Vitamin A homeostasis http://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/3677919/08_diss.pdf

Im focusing on the symptoms and everything needed to eliminate the metabolites.

so far:

Manganese
Glycine
TAURINE
Magnesium
b6 (P5P)
betaine trimethylglycine

get a bulk powder form of Taurine from amazon. take 1.5-2 grams to start in divided does.

http://www.nap.edu/read/1349/chapter/8#79

Retinol circulates in the blood as a 1: 1:1 trimolecular complex with retinol-binding protein (RBP) and transthyretin (TTR) (Goodman, 1984a). RBP is released from the liver in combination with retinol, and the holo-RBP complex combines with TTR in the blood. Subsequently, retinol is slowly metabolized in the liver to numerous products, some of which are conjugated with glucuronic acid or taurine, and eliminated in the bile (Sporn et al., 1984). Of the total retinol metabolized, approximately 70% of the metabolic products appear in the feces and 30% are excreted in the urine. Almost all these excreted products are biologically inactive metabolites. For a more detailed review of retinol metabolism, see Goodman and Blaner (1984).

Night blindness:

Taurine supports the integrity of photoreceptors necessary for night vision^{2, 3}, in a process known as rhodopsin regeneration. Rhodopsin is the primary pigment in photoreceptor rods and so vision in low-light conditions is supported. It also helps to protect cell membranes from free radical damage and helps to remove toxins and debris.⁴Taurine is found in the photoreceptors at levels ten times greater than other amino acids.⁵

TEWL andproteinmis-folding

http://www.in-cosmetics.com/RXUK/RXUK_InCosmetics/2015-Website/Documents/in-cos15, IS, T3,D3, Unlock the power of nature, Piera M. Pericu.pdf?v=635664145578959704

Is there a way to rid the long term depression this drug causes? I took the drug very young. I have all the symptoms that are common. Joint pain, stomach problems and dry skin, dry eyes. I can deal with those side effects I just want relieve from my mind. I'm currently 25 and have been on Effexor, fluoxetine and sertraline for a month. If anything I feel worse. I'm constantly crying everyday out of nowhere and I'm sick and tired of living this way. I pretty much signed up to post this and I'm hoping there's a way to at least scratch the surface of all this. Any response is greatly appreciated.

my Chinese herbalist once explained that anger, anxiety and depression are cause my your liver not working as it should.

in my case roaccutane damaged my liver.
I lost my relationship and my best friend due to depression and anger. I'd say the liver is the cause, I would look into it if I were you

I was exactly the same as you, I would cry for no reason. Get angry at little petty things. I was going crazy. I wasn't..... ME!

vit D and magnesium helped but I reckon the Chinese medicineare what improvedmy mental state.
I say go find a good Chinese herbalist

holy shit, i just read something about "Angry Liver" I really think im on to something. It ties into a lot ofsymptomsespeciallywith bile flow, TEWL, GNMT, braincells, night blindness, dopamine etc. I cant believe i didnt see this before. its actually pretty simple when you think about it.

accutane upregulates GNMT throwing off our methyl groups. A highly upregulated GNMT depletes methionoine, which in turn depletes TAURINE indirectly by not having the substrate for our bodies to manufature it. Taurine is also needed for fattyacidsynthesis. Taurine keeps the bile liquid preventing Cholestasis.

Glyine and Taurine are the two bile salt conjugates. Accutane gets detoxified by two different ways, 1. through glucurondination, 2. throughtaurine conjugation?! http://cot.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/cot/cotstavita.pdf 19. Vitamin A and derivative compounds can be conjugated in the liver with glucuronic acid or taurine (EVM, 2003; IOM, 2001). as always, follow the money:

http://www.google.com/patents/US4545977

Osmolytes seem to be a big thread in this... they basically introduce water back into the cells that accutane literally dries out.
I keep coming back to the thing we know is true. When your skin dries out from a drug, dry air, or UV radiation... it tries to protect itself with fatty acids and taurine!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1941178

Now it explains here, that accutane (CRA) can be used for methionine toxicity. so wouldnt the opposite be true? wouldnt taking methionine or its ultimate end product taurine help? This is what throws off our SAM/SAH ratio, and why taking methylfolate doesnt seem to help. maybe this is why TUDCA helps maybe this is why the guy cured himself eating nothing but scallops (very high in taurine) and rice. maybe this is why ketogenic diets help (meats are sources of methionine)

Bile acids and Vitamin A homeostasis http://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/3677919/08_diss.pdf

Im focusing on the symptoms and everything needed to eliminate the metabolites.

so far:

Manganese
Glycine
TAURINE
Magnesium
b6 (P5P)
betaine trimethylglycine

get a bulk powder form of Taurine from amazon. take 1.5-2 grams to start in divided does.

http://www.nap.edu/read/1349/chapter/8#79

Retinol circulates in the blood as a 1: 1:1 trimolecular complex with retinol-binding protein (RBP) and transthyretin (TTR) (Goodman, 1984a). RBP is released from the liver in combination with retinol, and the holo-RBP complex combines with TTR in the blood. Subsequently, retinol is slowly metabolized in the liver to numerous products, some of which are conjugated with glucuronic acid or taurine, and eliminated in the bile (Sporn et al., 1984). Of the total retinol metabolized, approximately 70% of the metabolic products appear in the feces and 30% are excreted in the urine. Almost all these excreted products are biologically inactive metabolites. For a more detailed review of retinol metabolism, see Goodman and Blaner (1984).

Night blindness:

Taurine supports the integrity of photoreceptors necessary for night vision^{2, 3}, in a process known as rhodopsin regeneration. Rhodopsin is the primary pigment in photoreceptor rods and so vision in low-light conditions is supported. It also helps to protect cell membranes from free radical damage and helps to remove toxins and debris.⁴Taurine is found in the photoreceptors at levels ten times greater than other amino acids.⁵

TEWL andproteinmis-folding

http://www.in-cosmetics.com/RXUK/RXUK_InCosmetics/2015-Website/Documents/in-cos15, IS, T3,D3, Unlock the power of nature, Piera M. Pericu.pdf?v=635664145578959704

Is there a way to rid the long term depression this drug causes? I took the drug very young. I have all the symptoms that are common. Joint pain, stomach problems and dry skin, dry eyes. I can deal with those side effects I just want relieve from my mind. I'm currently 25 and have been on Effexor, fluoxetine and sertraline for a month. If anything I feel worse. I'm constantly crying everyday out of nowhere and I'm sick and tired of living this way. I pretty much signed up to post this and I'm hoping there's a way to at least scratch the surface of all this. Any response is greatly appreciated.

my Chinese herbalist once explained that anger, anxiety and depression are cause my your liver not working as it should.

in my case roaccutane damaged my liver.
I lost my relationship and my best friend due to depression and anger. I'd say the liver is the cause, I would look into it if I were you

I was exactly the same as you, I would cry for no reason. Get angry at little petty things. I was going crazy. I wasn't..... ME!

vit D and magnesium helped but I reckon the Chinese medicineare what improvedmy mental state.
I say go find a good Chinese herbalist

holy shit, i just read something about "Angry Liver" I really think im on to something. It ties into a lot ofsymptomsespeciallywith bile flow, TEWL, GNMT, braincells, night blindness, dopamine etc. I cant believe i didnt see this before. its actually pretty simple when you think about it.

accutane upregulates GNMT throwing off our methyl groups. A highly upregulated GNMT depletes methionoine, which in turn depletes TAURINE indirectly by not having the substrate for our bodies to manufature it. Taurine is also needed for fattyacidsynthesis. Taurine keeps the bile liquid preventing Cholestasis.

Glyine and Taurine are the two bile salt conjugates. Accutane gets detoxified by two different ways, 1. through glucurondination, 2. throughtaurine conjugation?! http://cot.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/cot/cotstavita.pdf 19. Vitamin A and derivative compounds can be conjugated in the liver with glucuronic acid or taurine (EVM, 2003; IOM, 2001). as always, follow the money:

http://www.google.com/patents/US4545977

Osmolytes seem to be a big thread in this... they basically introduce water back into the cells that accutane literally dries out.
I keep coming back to the thing we know is true. When your skin dries out from a drug, dry air, or UV radiation... it tries to protect itself with fatty acids and taurine!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1941178

Now it explains here, that accutane (CRA) can be used for methionine toxicity. so wouldnt the opposite be true? wouldnt taking methionine or its ultimate end product taurine help? This is what throws off our SAM/SAH ratio, and why taking methylfolate doesnt seem to help. maybe this is why TUDCA helps maybe this is why the guy cured himself eating nothing but scallops (very high in taurine) and rice. maybe this is why ketogenic diets help (meats are sources of methionine)

Bile acids and Vitamin A homeostasis http://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/3677919/08_diss.pdf

Im focusing on the symptoms and everything needed to eliminate the metabolites.

so far:

Manganese
Glycine
TAURINE
Magnesium
b6 (P5P)
betaine trimethylglycine

get a bulk powder form of Taurine from amazon. take 1.5-2 grams to start in divided does.

http://www.nap.edu/read/1349/chapter/8#79

Retinol circulates in the blood as a 1: 1:1 trimolecular complex with retinol-binding protein (RBP) and transthyretin (TTR) (Goodman, 1984a). RBP is released from the liver in combination with retinol, and the holo-RBP complex combines with TTR in the blood. Subsequently, retinol is slowly metabolized in the liver to numerous products, some of which are conjugated with glucuronic acid or taurine, and eliminated in the bile (Sporn et al., 1984). Of the total retinol metabolized, approximately 70% of the metabolic products appear in the feces and 30% are excreted in the urine. Almost all these excreted products are biologically inactive metabolites. For a more detailed review of retinol metabolism, see Goodman and Blaner (1984).

Night blindness:

Taurine supports the integrity of photoreceptors necessary for night vision^{2, 3}, in a process known as rhodopsin regeneration. Rhodopsin is the primary pigment in photoreceptor rods and so vision in low-light conditions is supported. It also helps to protect cell membranes from free radical damage and helps to remove toxins and debris.⁴Taurine is found in the photoreceptors at levels ten times greater than other amino acids.⁵

TEWL andproteinmis-folding

http://www.in-cosmetics.com/RXUK/RXUK_InCosmetics/2015-Website/Documents/in-cos15, IS, T3,D3, Unlock the power of nature, Piera M. Pericu.pdf?v=635664145578959704

Excellent finds TTH2014! Particularly about taurine playing such an important part in night vision. I'd not read this before (or may have just overlooked it), but it gives me more weight to a lot of your recent theory. I'm going to get hold of some to supplement.

Interestingly one of the most effective things I've found for tane sides is actually pumpkin seeds (for mental clarity especially), and these are a good source of a few of the minerals youmention - magnesium, zinc andmanganese. I've tried supplementing all these things individually, but with less results than I get from eating only 50g of seeds per day. I actuallystopped eating these for some time as they are supposed to be a 5AR inhibitor, but reading into this in more detail it appears they do reduce DHT, but via a different mechanism to 5ARinhibition.

Have recently come off TUDCA after taking600mg daily for 5-6 weeks (along with active B6, B12, folic acid, D3, selenium) as I was starting to feel a bit sh1t on it, and was getting pains in my liver (under right rib) just like I did when I'd come off tane. Having stopped it I feel fine again -probably a bit better than before even with better mental clarity. I'm not sure if I wasbecoming depleted in something on that regime,butwill restart in a few weeks and add taurine and glycine!

Is there a way to rid the long term depression this drug causes? I took the drug very young. I have all the symptoms that are common. Joint pain, stomach problems and dry skin, dry eyes. I can deal with those side effects I just want relieve from my mind. I'm currently 25 and have been on Effexor, fluoxetine and sertraline for a month. If anything I feel worse. I'm constantly crying everyday out of nowhere and I'm sick and tired of living this way. I pretty much signed up to post this and I'm hoping there's a way to at least scratch the surface of all this. Any response is greatly appreciated.

I get and am also sick of living this way.Despite all of the efforts in the thread nothing adds up to a can of beans with any of it being correct. All we know at this point is that going to the doctor, or messing with things moremight not be the answer, and instead eating true, caveman style meals and food might restore our health over a long period of time. I have seen inprovements, but its not hard for it to be expected with the kind of raw shit i eat LOL. Ive also found a lot of power with fasting. I dont want to be spiritual with you now but if you try it message me. I am about to start another 3 day fast, which is enough for me, about twice a month. Dont fall into the supplimentation talk,of adding more, if anything in a way us accutaners simply need less. Do you have more symptoms to share? Stomach pains or malfunctions?

Looks like my acne is back when I try high dose of vitamin A. I wonder is anybody have the same side effect?

Looks like my acne is back when I try high dose of vitamin A. I wonder is anybody have the same side effect?

yes same here. I see an increase in my acne which for me is good.

what form are you taking and what dosage?

Looks like my acne is back when I try high dose of vitamin A. I wonder is anybody have the same side effect?

yes same here. I see an increase in my acne which for me is good.

what form are you taking and what dosage?

I took Swanson capsules once 20000 IU and second time 10000 IU.

Looks like my acne is back when I try high dose of vitamin A. I wonder is anybody have the same side effect?

yes same here. I see an increase in my acne which for me is good.

what form are you taking and what dosage?

I took Swanson capsules once 20000 IU and second time 10000 IU.

The amount of acne is still low but on my "t-spot" between my eyes and my temples I now and then see some pimple with sebum.

I think you use these then?
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-premium-vitamin-a-10000-iu-500-sgels

Fish Oil + Palmitate ( Retinyl Palmitate )
Please keep us updated with your symptoms.

My only speculation is that the liverproduces hormones again with the Vitamin A.

On 11/15/2015 at 1:09 PM, Mike San said:

Thanks heaps as usual....so must we have TUDCA as well (hard to source here in Aus) or would it make sense to try solo taurine (easy to source)?

On 11/15/2015 at 11:41 AM, tryingtohelp2014 said:

 

Without knowing how much taurine to take (2 grams? 6 grams? 15 grams?) or how long it takes to get rid of the stored metabolite... i dont know about taking vitamin A at all. i would just eat normal foods that have beta carotene. Im excited about it saying taurine relieving hypercalcemia.. maybe this could take care of long term joint pains, reverse calcified tendons.

 

 

The scary part comes when/if it starts working, do we experience side effects all over again as its being excreted? or side effects x10?!

 

On 11/15/2015 at 4:42 PM, Walden Rev said:

On 11/15/2015 at 1:09 PM, Mike San said:

Thanks heaps as usual....so must we have TUDCA as well (hard to source here in Aus) or would it make sense to try solo taurine (easy to source)?

TUDCA and other Nootropics I would recommend PowderCity. They got the best Shipping by far, very fast and no problems with customs twice.
They do 3rd party testing and in-house testing and within the Reddit Community it is one of the best known nootropic providers

The powder below comes with a measuring scoop and 40$ for 25 gram is one of the best deals on the internet.
You only have to "cap"them yourself, so you have to buy empty capsules.

TUDCA 25 GRAM

[Edited link out]

On 11/15/2015 at 11:41 AM, tryingtohelp2014 said:

 

Without knowing how much taurine to take (2 grams? 6 grams? 15 grams?) or how long it takes to get rid of the stored metabolite... i dont know about taking vitamin A at all. i would just eat normal foods that have beta carotene. Im excited about it saying taurine relieving hypercalcemia.. maybe this could take care of long term joint pains, reverse calcified tendons.

 

The scary part comes when/if it starts working, do we experience side effects all over again as its being excreted? or side effects x10?!

Well, I would go for a high dose like 4.5 grams and adjust on the results.

 

Supplimenting activities will NOT REVERSE YOUR LONG TERM ACCUTANE DAMAGE!!!!!!!! Taurine, ginsing, or magnesium. This will NOT REVERSE ACCUTANE!

Sorry to start yelling but lets please keep the thread in check.

Id STILL like to hear more about what you guys eat, how life is, where youre working.

Supplements are worthless.

Supplements are worthless.

They really are. And when youstop and think its really such a joke were still trying fuckin suppliments. Even if we are fucked suppliments are damn dumb lol.