@tryingtohelp

You dont understand epigenetics then. There is no "done" damage. Epigenetic changes arent permanent in any way. There needs to be an ACTIVE suppressor of the gene....otherwise, it would default back to our original DNA blueprint. your DNA never changes. My "little" manganese is the mineral that activates the enzyme to glucuordinate retinoid metabolites out of the body.

How is your gene currently being silenced if there is nothing( accutane metabolite) to silence it???

Plus, if you believe in hardcore epigenetic changes, you would be taking the methylating B vitamins

Implying that Accutane or a metabolite of Accutane must be present to alter gene expression is incorrect in the context of the wikipedia article quoted. This would not be considered an epigentic alteration, but an active modulator of gene expression.

The offending substance does not need to be present for the gene to be silenced. ..."The damage is done," so to speak.

Is there a way to correct it? Maybe. Is taking B-vitamins that may promote methylation going to correct it? Who knows.

That's assuming hypomethylation of a gene or genes is the underlying problem.

And in Duul's case, supplementing a natural hormone that he is lacking due to a structural abnormality sounds like a good idea.

But if there is a permanent damage, how come people feel/are cured when they are fasting for example?

It sounds to me you gave up fighting and trying to convince everyone its permanent.

Also I think our bodies are VERY dehydrated. Make sure to drink 6 - 8 oz glasses of Reverse Osmosis water throughout the day.

Just drinking more water cleared my Dry Eye symptoms. Not kidding you.

what makes us more dehydrated than a normal person???????????? what makes our bodies not hold onto/lose water content?

reading this just makes me sigh. i can only help so much. where is that eye doctor/lymph guy annoy when you need him?

@tryingtohelp

You dont understand epigenetics then. There is no "done" damage. Epigenetic changes arent permanent in any way. There needs to be an ACTIVE suppressor of the gene....otherwise, it would default back to our original DNA blueprint. your DNA never changes. My "little" manganese is the mineral that activates the enzyme to glucuordinate retinoid metabolites out of the body.

How is your gene currently being silenced if there is nothing( accutane metabolite) to silence it???

Plus, if you believe in hardcore epigenetic changes, you would be taking the methylating B vitamins

Implying that Accutane or a metabolite of Accutane must be present to alter gene expression is incorrect in the context of the wikipedia article quoted. This would not be considered an epigentic alteration, but an active modulator of gene expression.

The offending substance does not need to be present for the gene to be silenced. ..."The damage is done," so to speak.

Is there a way to correct it? Maybe. Is taking B-vitamins that may promote methylation going to correct it? Who knows.

That's assuming hypomethylation of a gene or genes is the underlying problem.

And in Duul's case, supplementing a natural hormone that he is lacking due to a structural abnormality sounds like a good idea.

Answer me one question....

What is the "inducer" in the epigenetic equation?!

Whoops, looks like the original link was bad:

The 5ARI Withdrawal Syndrome:

http://www.protocol-online.org/forums/uploads/monthly_08_2010/msg-19273-027408800 1282061244.ipb

 

I will dig through my old medical records tonight and see if I can find some numbers.

I believe my friend it's all related. The doctors never could come to an exact conclusion.

If Accutane caused you any sexual symptoms you would most likely know it. For most of us with sexual symptoms, it goes from having a fully charged sex drive, being fully functional and ready to go at any moment, to having numb broken-down genitals and almost an absent libido in a relatively short time frame during or soon after taking Accutane. Suicidal depression and/or wiped-out emotions often accompany this. It's shocking and terrifying. If you think it boils down to aging in your case, then it may be so.

There are no conventional tests available for androgen-receptor levels either. Not sure why it's such a big deal to take a small tissue sample to perform molecular testing, but it is. That seems to be one of the huge hurdles we face. No matter what exactly Accutane did to us, very little has been determined from blood tests, and the types of tests we would need to show changes in gene expression or epigenetic markers are not performed outside of a research setting.

Hey Dubya,

Now there is a strong theory that it is "estrogen dominance" what we are experiencing (those who has ED issues).

Have you tried to balance your hormones? (Hrt with AI maybe?) or do you know someone who succeded with hormonal balance?

Or do you know anybody who fully recovered from sexual problems includin shrinkage and numbness?

On 12/15/2014 at 9:07 AM, Dubya_B said:

Whoops, looks like the original link was bad:

The 5ARI Withdrawal Syndrome:

http://www.protocol-online.org/forums/uploads/monthly_08_2010/msg-19273-027408800%201282061244.ipb

On 12/15/2014 at 7:54 AM, Duul said:

I will dig through my old medical records tonight and see if I can find some numbers.

I believe my friend it's all related. The doctors never could come to an exact conclusion.

If Accutane caused you any sexual symptoms you would most likely know it. For most of us with sexual symptoms, it goes from having a fully charged sex drive, being fully functional and ready to go at any moment, to having numb broken-down genitals and almost an absent libido in a relatively short time frame during or soon after taking Accutane. Suicidal depression and/or wiped-out emotions often accompany this. It's shocking and terrifying. If you think it boils down to aging in your case, then it may be so.

There are no conventional tests available for androgen-receptor levels either. Not sure why it's such a big deal to take a small tissue sample to perform molecular testing, but it is. That seems to be one of the huge hurdles we face. No matter what exactly Accutane did to us, very little has been determined from blood tests, and the types of tests we would need to show changes in gene expression or epigenetic markers are not performed outside of a research setting.

Being functional at any moment? I need a lot more stimulation then before accutane. No numbness. Now if I drink alcohol forget it, Nothing going to happen that night. Wiped out emotions? Not so much. I have a couple of videos recorded after accutane before college, personality was perfectly fine. I was so fucking happy to stop taking the drug.

I have tried abstaining from masturbating which has helped quite a bit. So perhaps I dodged a bullet there.

Had a ultrasound of my testicles, nothing wrong there. It's all BRAIN related. Accutane does pass the blood-brain barrier.

The reason I quit accutane early was because of a suicide attempt and right knee pain. (just had a MRI done of my right knee few days ago, will let you know what's up)

I remember the day I quit accutane. I went to college and was having horrible right knee pain, felt like an old man being so tired!!! Later that night I had such dread and sorrow I remember holding the chefs knife in front of my stomach ready to go right through myself. I held the knife in front of me for about 3 minutes. I stopped and that's the day I threw all the pills in the garbage. The derm was like "You got 4 months to go tho!!!!!". Me: "uhhh no, and my scalp acne is gone so."

I probably could have took a month of Accucrap, Roaccutrainwreck, Isotrap, 13-creepacid, Roche infested (let's call them what they are Roach.) ROACH infested demonic CHEMO DRUG. Which is FUCKING CRIMINAL to market it as an ACNE DRUG.

I MEAN LOOK even the judges are corrupt! : http://www.law360.com/articles/584321/4-accutane-suits-against-roche-filed-too-late-judge-rules

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-04/roche-wins-reversal-of-2-million-accutane-trial-verdict.html

Anyways back to Androgen Receptors... Even if we could biopsy a part of our back and say their is a deficiency there. How do you repair the receptors? Let's say if accutane did come and go through our system? This goes back to manganese detoxing the cells if accutane is still in our cells. But if it's not.... Then wtf.

That's why HGH, peptides and IGF-1 which can be found at most Anti-aging clinics might be a good option!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ALSO FOR ANYONE WITH IBS OR IBD. Drink Kombucha or brew your own, like I am.

On 12/15/2014 at 11:12 AM, Walden Rev said:

On 12/15/2014 at 10:03 AM, Dubya_B said:

@tryingtohelp

On 12/14/2014 at 5:43 PM, tryingtohelp2014 said:

You dont understand epigenetics then. There is no "done" damage. Epigenetic changes arent permanent in any way. There needs to be an ACTIVE suppressor of the gene....otherwise, it would default back to our original DNA blueprint. your DNA never changes. My "little" manganese is the mineral that activates the enzyme to glucuordinate retinoid metabolites out of the body.

How is your gene currently being silenced if there is nothing( accutane metabolite) to silence it???

Plus, if you believe in hardcore epigenetic changes, you would be taking the methylating B vitamins

Implying that Accutane or a metabolite of Accutane must be present to alter gene expression is incorrect in the context of the wikipedia article quoted. This would not be considered an epigentic alteration, but an active modulator of gene expression.

The offending substance does not need to be present for the gene to be silenced. ..."The damage is done," so to speak.

Is there a way to correct it? Maybe. Is taking B-vitamins that may promote methylation going to correct it? Who knows.

That's assuming hypomethylation of a gene or genes is the underlying problem.

And in Duul's case, supplementing a natural hormone that he is lacking due to a structural abnormality sounds like a good idea.

But if there is a permanent damage, how come people feel/are cured when they are fasting for example?

It sounds to me you gave up fighting and trying to convince everyone its permanent.

We're saying the damage is done. So let's try to repair it, I personally do not believe any accutane is in our system however our body / cells are weakened. So we need to repair them in anyway we can.

Juicing Wheatgrass is an amazing way to repair CELL DNA

I just grew a flat of Wheatgrass in my home. Going to be juicing all this week with my masticating juicer. http://www.amazon.com/Omega-J8006-Nutrition-Center-Juicer/dp/B001L7OIVI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1418633233&sr=8-1&keywords=omega+masticating

Also most of the Manganese supplements are quite frankly.....

Dead. Yep it's dead folks, juice Spinach instead, drink your manganese instead.

Taking a dried out manganese supplement is not the way to go, juice it instead. Drink large quantities of it, live enzymes and micronutrients.

Try eating sprouts for your manganese:

http://www.amazon.com/Manual-Wheatgrass-Juicer-Miracle-Commercial/dp/B0012824NK/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1418634211&sr=8-7&keywords=wheat+grass+juicer

Let's put this into perspective. There is now 296 pages on this forum alone in this one topic.

Then take all the other posts on Curezone.com and AllthingsMale.com and propeciahelp.

The one universal cure is Weed, Cannabis, Rick Simpson Oil or call it Phoenix Tears OIl. (the good stuff, very hard to find, and very expensive to make unless you grow your own.

So go grab your medical Marijuana card.

[Edited video out]

On 12/15/2014 at 2:43 PM, MrErdem said:

On 12/15/2014 at 9:07 AM, Dubya_B said:

Whoops, looks like the original link was bad:

The 5ARI Withdrawal Syndrome:

http://www.protocol-online.org/forums/uploads/monthly_08_2010/msg-19273-027408800 1282061244.ipb

On 12/15/2014 at 7:54 AM, Duul said:

I will dig through my old medical records tonight and see if I can find some numbers.

I believe my friend it's all related. The doctors never could come to an exact conclusion.

If Accutane caused you any sexual symptoms you would most likely know it. For most of us with sexual symptoms, it goes from having a fully charged sex drive, being fully functional and ready to go at any moment, to having numb broken-down genitals and almost an absent libido in a relatively short time frame during or soon after taking Accutane. Suicidal depression and/or wiped-out emotions often accompany this. It's shocking and terrifying. If you think it boils down to aging in your case, then it may be so.

There are no conventional tests available for androgen-receptor levels either. Not sure why it's such a big deal to take a small tissue sample to perform molecular testing, but it is. That seems to be one of the huge hurdles we face. No matter what exactly Accutane did to us, very little has been determined from blood tests, and the types of tests we would need to show changes in gene expression or epigenetic markers are not performed outside of a research setting.

Hey Dubya,

Now there is a strong theory that it is "estrogen dominance" what we are experiencing (those who has ED issues).

Have you tried to balance your hormones? (Hrt with AI maybe?) or do you know someone who succeded with hormonal balance?

Or do you know anybody who fully recovered from sexual problems includin shrinkage and numbness?

I do have raised Estrogen. Estrogen is at 180 when It should be down to 70.

If I lose my weight I can get my estrogen in the right place again.

Another thing on Blood Tests and Micro Nutrient tests. These fluctuate so much people it's not even accurate.

One day perhaps I was low on Vitamin C. Big whoop, I bet if I went later that day after drinking CUPS of home made Orange Juice it would be off the charts.

To:

TryingtoNOTHELP,

You said...

"Im sorry to be blunt...but as far as Duul's case... he takes prescribed HGH (because we all know prescriptions from doctors make it all good) , has this prescription make his face so bad, it makes him take the chemo drug accutane... now come full circle, to think taking HGH again will solve all of the problems?! that is beyond any logic i see. Maybe that doctor, instead of just prescribing HGH, shouldve found out why he why low in HGH to begin with,,, then he wouldve never even heard of accutane."

I took perscribed HGH when I was 12 years old and diagnosed with Pituitary DWARFISM. I would not have grown past 4'4 if I didn't supplement it. I would be a DWARF today if I didn't. Today I am now standing at 5'9. Acne does not run in my family.

For being a CHESS PLAYER of 2400 rating, you're not to bright dude!!! Do some research on Pituitary gland GROWTH HORMONE deficiency. Before you open your mouth!

The Scalp acne is from a combination of HGH supplementation and my Arnold Chiari malformation I had. Also I had a MAJOR neck surgery when I was in 3rd grade that removed a good chunk of LYMPH nodes from my neck. So yeah my system was not built for those amount of hormones.

YES taking HGH helps repair your cells.

Why are you so uptight about taking HGH, peptides or IGF-1? WHY NOT TRY IT?????

I would do ANYTHING to get my skin back thanks.

Also....On the topic of Skin Sweating.

Our skin is so thin and dry now no wonder the water comes spilling out of the pores when you work out at the gym!!!

It's so damn dry, there is no OIL stopping the sweat from pouring out.

Nothing to detox there. We're dry and craving that SEBUM, man I wish I had some right now.

Let me go slather my face in Shea Butter, brb.

I personally do think the accutane is still there, certainly for those that can't tolerate retinol in foods, that's as clear as day from the side effects from eating retinol. What your proposing is that accutane has altered our vitamin A metabolism permanently without it's presence. In that case if we weren't able to utilise vitamin A why would it cause hypervitaminosis A like symptoms? it just doesn't make any sense. The body's not stupid, it'll go back to homeostasis if it can, but there is an antagonist triggering this epigenetic change in the cell and forcing it to transcribe the wrong information, the wrong cell differentiation and that antagonist or inducer is accutane.

I personally do think the accutane is still there, certainly for those that can't tolerate retinol in foods, that's as clear as day from the side effects from eating retinol. What your proposing is that accutane has altered our vitamin A metabolism permanently without it's presence. In that case if we weren't able to utilise vitamin A why would it cause hypervitaminosis A like symptoms? it just doesn't make any sense. The body's not stupid, it'll go back to homeostasis if it can, but there is an antagonist triggering this epigenetic change in the cell and forcing it to transcribe the wrong information, the wrong cell differentiation and that antagonist or inducer is accutane.

I don't think it causes hypervitaminosis. I think it is hypovitaminosis. All of my symptoms indicate vitamin A deficiency. Most studies show that accutane depletes vit A as well. Also, I think it is possible that the synthetic vit A could still be stored in our livers. Perhaps taking in new vit A releases that synthetic form from our livers which is causing symptoms all over again. Just speculating...

Question to all of the sufferers:

Did anyone take antibiotics along with the accutane? I personally took Bactrim for a few months with the accutane. I think that might've greatly contributed to my downfall.

A product I was recommended by another accutane victim is hydraplenish from nature's way. I will be purchasing this in the coming weeks for my dryness and joint pain. Worth a shot..

I took solodyn a couple months prior.

Can I ask, for those of you who have persistent dryness after taking accutane,

Do you feel uncomfortable all the time, as though your eyes, face, lips and scalp are a bit tingly and tight? These are the sensations I feel yet my face can still have some oil on it (partly because I take gamma linolenic acid which helps produce oil)

I am taking Lyrica now to see if this helps with the 'pain'/sensations associated these feelings. I don't know if it's best to describe as dry, but it is certainly not a nice feeling to have on an ongoing basis...

I was on antibiotics and prednisone during the third month of accutane treatment. I was taking 5 pills a day for two weeks. Shortly after stopping that I began to notice sideeffects so I sstopped accutane. I was on a low dose of accutane so I think that the antibiotics and prednisone is what did it for me

I was not on antibiotics.

I have been on the Manganese 10mg chelated + Methyl B vitamins + Choline + Molybdenum for about a week now, and I can confirm:

Skin feels and looks better within first day.

When combined with healthy eating/foods rich in Manganese, I had the best sex of possibly my entire life with the firmest erection.

Stomach still has some issues- will be starting probiotic back up after that (had originally cleared my stomach issues), since I took CBD it killed the bacteria in my gut.

Felt very clear and happy.

This was with the regimen AND eating foods with Manganese. Without eating the foods as well/eating a bit healthy, my skin was still great but I did not notice the other benefits like sex drive/firm erections/clarity.

Cheers

I have been on the Manganese 10mg chelated + Methyl B vitamins + Choline + Molybdenum for about a week now, and I can confirm:

Skin feels and looks better within first day.

When combined with healthy eating/foods rich in Manganese, I had the best sex of possibly my entire life with the firmest erection.

Stomach still has some issues- will be starting probiotic back up after that (had originally cleared my stomach issues), since I took CBD it killed the bacteria in my gut.

Felt very clear and happy.

This was with the regimen AND eating foods with Manganese. Without eating the foods as well/eating a bit healthy, my skin was still great but I did not notice the other benefits like sex drive/firm erections/clarity.

Cheers

I understand the methyl B vitamins and the choline is for DNA methylation, epigenetic changes. The manganese is for the co factor glucuronosyltransferase. But what's the Molybdenum for?

Deficiency, UDP-glucuronosyltransferase: Underactivity of a liver enzyme that is essential to the disposal of bilirubin (the chemical that results from the normal breakdown of hemoglobin from red blood cells).

The deficiency of this enzyme (UDP-glucuronosyltransferase) results in a condition called Gilbert's disease in which there are mild elevations of bilirubin pigment in the blood. The elevated bilirubin pigment can sometimes cause mild yellowing (jaundice) of the eyes. People with Gilbert's disease are otherwise entirely normal with no other signs or symptoms and their liver enzymes in blood serum are also entirely normal.

Its funny, ive had elevated bilirubin levels and slightly yellow eye whites ever since accutane. The doctor said no worries, its just Gilberts disease. But i didnt have this in my initial blood tests before accutane! There u go Chico.

Does anyone else on here have high bilirubin levels?

The most in depth article on glucuordination of accutane and its metabolites... maybe we can get the doctor to comment on this thread... her email is near the top. [email protected]

http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/content/38/7/1211.full

Identification of UGT1A9 as an important isoform involved in the glucuronidation of both 13cisRA and 4-oxo 13cisRA provides a rationale for investigating the impact of UGT1A9 genetic polymorphisms on the reported variability associated with 13cisRA pharmacokinetics and metabolism in children with neuroblastoma (Veal et al., 2007).

plus we know which polymorphism to check for.

ATTENTION ATTENTION

ATTENTION ATTENTION

For anyone who is interested in liver issues. I have my results back from doing the Functional Liver Detoxification Profile by Healthscope Pathology.

The condensed version

Phase 1

Caffeine Clearance 1.2 (0..5 - 1.6)

Phase 2

Glutathionation 3.1 (5.6 - 11.4)

Sulphation 26 (16 - 36)

Glucuronidation 8 (27 - 56)

Glycination 29 (30 - 53)

As you can see, Glutathionation is very low, Sulphation is normal, Glucuronidation is extremely extremely low, and Glycination is just a tad low.

I've got a abunch of supp recommendations to try for them. So off to iherb.com again to buy more pills.

Good luck everyone

timatron, thank you so much for posting your test results. tryingtohelp2014 is definitely on the right track

Some of my standard liver blood work during and after accutane:

[Edited link out]

my first pill was 08/03/12

last pill was 12/20/12

Check my signature for my other blood test results and symptoms list

Also, seeing as some people took accutane with antibiotics and some took it without and still got messed up, I think we can conclude that accutane is more than likely the cause for most of us. I think the ones who took antibiotics near or during the course were more likely to get screwed up though

Tryingtohelp: I also have high bilirubin levels.

Another question for everyone:

Trying to see if there is a link between heavy metal exposure and accutane symptoms

anyone here who got messed up from accutane who never had any dental work done?

I just got my nickel titanium retainers taken out yesterday. Not sure if that could have been contributing to some of my symptoms. Maybe I'll notice a change in the near future. Perhaps there are some of you that have had braces or silver fillings or mercury amalgums etc..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=nickel+accutane

old message by timatron: "As for the dreaming. I cant remember when I stopped dreaming, since I was a teen. Recently had my stainless steel wire taken out from my bottom teeth by my dentist. It was put there indefinately after my braces came out. Man, I've been dreaming heavily ever since that day and my mood has improved slightly! That was about 6 weeks ago and have dreamt ever since. I was blaming roaccutane for all this but looks like it was something else. I had a mild nickel allergy. But I still blame Roaccy for making it a bit worse. Roaccy is the cause of all our problems."

I also completely quit having dreams when I went on accutane. I still haven't had one in 2 years. Also, I have a known vit b6 deficiency which is associated with dreaming. Supplementation doesn't fix the deficiency

I've had dental work as well and currently have this permanent metal wire behind my two front teeth. But I still have dreams occasionally not as frequent but they still are there

I had my braces renewed during accutane period and have retainer now.

I found and posted this a while ago..:

"

Having braces fitted at age 14/15 was the beginning of my health nightmare. I was never the same, even though they were removed later. I improved to a point, but that was it. From then on life changed and has never been the same.

I gather though I must have already had problems and it just took one more health challenge to cause me to buckle. I just did not bounce back. I never noticed big health problems before that and was always a very energetic person (possibly too much perhaps, a little hyper). But happy, seemingly healthy and confident though a bit shy.

I can't quite believe the dramatic change and impact following the placement of braces. It started as soon as the metal studs were put on, even before the wire. The changes were dramatic and I'm surprised nobody made the connection. It was almost immediate too. Hair, skin, eyes, personality/mental outlook, everything changed. Blurred vision, horrible skin that wouldn't heal properly, hair faded in colour, weight loss, late menstruation, tearful, depressed, taut skin with blemishes, bizzare mental thoughts, obsessive behaviours, compulsive behaviours, withdrawn, gut problems/cramps. It was like a nightmare descended upon me.

[Edited link out]

[Edited link out]

"

I've had gilbert's since child hood. However that's another reason my doc should not have put me on accutane. Comprimised liver before taking the drug not a good idea.

I have a permanent metal wire on my bottom teeth that I got after my braces were taken off.. I wonder if I should switch to a regular retainer that I can take out?

Thanks for sharing about the dental work causing problems post. I updated my previous post with a study showing that accutane might make you allergic to certain metals (namely nickel) that were previously tolerated. Maybe we should get rid of our exposures to them just to be on the safe side. I'd prefer to have messed up teeth over ruined health, but maybe that's just me...

One interesting thing I saw in my blood work was how my vitamin D levels were going up and down so rapidly.

I have an anecdotal story about my vitamin D levels dropping quite rapidly: On 2/13/14 I had a 25-hydroxy vit D level of 30.4ng/ml . I started focusing on getting loads of sun exposure and began taking at least 10,000 IU D a day. In 6 months, on 8/13/14, my D rose to 85.2ng/ml. I continued with supplementation and sunlight to try to get my level above 100 just to make sure I was flooded with D and then tested again just 2 months later on 10/7/14. It was now 45ng/ml. I may not be recalling correctly but I'm pretty sure I continued having high levels of sunlight exposure leading up to the blood test that showed 45ng/ml. I was also still supplementing. So perhaps there could be something going on between the vit A and D receptors that involves one vitamin blocking the absorption or utilization of another. Maybe the synthetic retinoic acid is still built up from the accutane and is interfering with our D. idk, just putting some things out there that might be of interest... I just thought it was strange that my D level basically got completely halved in just 2 months while continuing supplementation and sunlight. Should be getting another D test soon. I've since completely stopped supplementation and started only relying on sunlight. I would expect the level to drop even further based on what previously happened. If anyone else gets their D levels checked, I'd be interested in your numbers

Edit: interesting study I just came across about carnitine helping accutane side effects http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10642057

Edit2: another study showing decreased platelet count from taking accutane due to suppression of bone marrow. My platelet count was definitely lowered by taking accutane. They used to be at 170 but now stay at the low end of normal at 130. They gradually lowered throughout the 5 month course. Wonder if anyone else has low platelet count post-tane

[Edited link out]

I had braces way before accutane however I remember being very depressed with them.

Again I had a full blood test, everything including hormones, vitamin D, B12, liver enzymes, thyroid, pituitary, magnesium, calcium, estradiol, peolactine, triglicerid, blood sugar.. and other dozens of elements. All come back within references. And again it is all in your head thing.