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chico what specific foods cause this retinol reaction, and which do not? i'm skeptical but open to convincing.
For example, shrimp has 4% vit A RDA and yet causes no ill effects for me.
Regardless of the side effect you have if you take retinol post accutane it will aggravate it.
I have hard evidence the problem extends way beyond this. On my second course of Accutane my doctor prescribed 60mgs a day - that was double my first dose. At that second dosage, I couldn't even leave the house because the entire portion of my chin area was scabbing up and bleeding. I went through the extreme sensitivity to food issue for about 3 years after the crash with beta-carotene (the body uses only what it needs is more bullshit).
When the sensitivity issue passed I became incredibly intrigued. I began experimenting based on the notions of perhaps resetting receptor expression (androgen, RAR, retinoid X, etc). Well guess what, at doses of 100mgs+ of brand name Accutane; I had no classic signs whatsoever. I even had nocturnal erections on that dose, which I dont even have when I am clean. I hope you finally concede that things change, but the condition persists unwaveringly.
chico what specific foods cause this retinol reaction, and which do not? i'm skeptical but open to convincing.
For example, shrimp has 4% vit A RDA and yet causes no ill effects for me.
Regardless of the side effect you have if you take retinol post accutane it will aggravate it.
I have hard evidence the problem extends way beyond this. On my second course of Accutane my doctor prescribed 60mgs a day - that was double my first dose. At that second dosage, I couldn't even leave the house because the entire portion of my chin area was scabbing up and bleeding. I went through the extreme sensitivity to food issue for about 3 years after the crash with beta-carotene (the body uses only what it needs is more bullshit).
When the sensitivity issue passed I became incredibly intrigued. I began experimenting based on the notions of perhaps resetting receptor expression (androgen, RAR, retinoid X, etc). Well guess what, at doses of 100mgs+ of brand name Accutane; I had no classic signs whatsoever. I even had nocturnal erections on that dose, which I dont even have when I am clean. I hope you finally concede that things change, but the condition persists unwaveringly.
I have a story of my own, and this is the truth unabated. After i went off accutane the first time i developed a skin condition over my cheeks and temples, my skin grew much quicker in these areas, it would shed uncontrollably, now i had no idea what it was, at 18 years old i never even thought it could be accutane that was responsible, i didn't put the pieces together or anything. After a couple of years i started travelling around the country paying to see private consultant dermatologist's because i was so afraid of what was happening to my skin. I was first diagnosed with a fungal infection of the skin and put on months of oral anti fungals, then i was diagnosed with seb derm, psoriasis, eczema, etc it went on and on the different dermatologists i saw. I had skin biopsy's done, i had blood tests, i had colonoscopies to check whether it was digestive. I was in a place were i genuinely wanted to die and had no reason left to go on. My skin condition caused scarring of my face in the areas in grew. A doctor prescribed PUVA therapy to me, i've talked about this in the past on here, and my skin cleared up, i also got a good tan from it. The drug they used was psoralen it makes you sensitive to light so the light from the tanning bed can penetrate the skin deeper, and slow down skin cell production. Thats how it works, it stops the skin cell differentiation being so quick, so the condition clears up, and it did.
I was reading a lot on the internet at the time and read accutane also helps PUVA therapy, because it too increases your sensitivity to light. At this stage i still didn't blame accutane for my predicament in the first instance. So this is what i did (and i'll regret this for the rest of my life) i found some accutane on the black market from a european pharmacy, it was from Turkey and it was legit. I bought it and started taking it, going on the sunbed's hoping it would have the same effect. 20 mg once a day. This was for about 2-3 months, i consumed the whole packet of 20mg accutane in that time. As soon as i stopped taking this accutane my nose, forehead, scalp and ears developed exactly the same skin condition that was on my cheeks and temples. Now it's all over my face and has been ever since.
Originally before i took it the second time, the skin on my nose, forehead and scalp was perfect, 100% normal it was just my cheeks and temples that were shedding and scarring, i called it 'the growth' because it was a thick white plaque that would grow only in those areas. But after stopping that 2nd cycle of accutane my whole face and scalp was covered with the same thick white plaque. That second cycle ruined me, and my life has never been the same since.
I'm telling you with 100% certainty, that it was accutane that caused my skin condition, and it is a form of hypervitaminosis A that i have, and most of us exhibit only at varying levels of toxicity and with various different symptoms. It's got absolutely nothing to do with DHT inhibitors, nothing whatsoever.
It's got absolutely nothing to do with DHT inhibitors, nothing whatsoever.
Yeah that is why you failed to comment at ALL when we were discussing this. Just give to research, please. You don't have this and Joe does not have this. ALSO, I AM SURE THE RESEARCHERS ARE FEVERISHLY TRYING TO WORK OUT HOW TO CLEAR THE RETINOIDS FROM YOUR RECEPTORS. If storage issues are at work, they play a small role, not the principle role as you always allude to. The problem is the drug inhibiting it's own metabolism., amongst other things.
" to begin with you are accusing the lead doctor running the study of rigorously and premeditatedly expediting his patients death by not following previously established dosing determinations set by the FDA"Nope, you're lying, or quote the refernce."So why act hastily, Dr. Death? "You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I recommend UDCA for people with blocked bile ducts. I have no idea how you came by that impression, since I repeatedly pointed out that this is a terrible idea.
You don't even know how to use the quote function.
Those TWO articles were way above your comprehension level - clearly. You said that those people in the first article were given UDCA because it would improve their life quality. You implied that they were going to die anyway, so it was fine to proceed. You implied that the doctors knew the end outcome - THEY DID NOT. This all happened recently. AND, YES IT HAS BEEN USED IN CHILD CASES OF DRUG INDUCED INTRAHEPATIC BILIARY TREE DAMAGE. I could show you proof, but I still dont think you would understand.
You obviously couldn't digest my post, hence this meager offering. Here is some more shocking information: All cholestatsis refers to bile blockage. You cannot escape dealing with blockage. Hence, there are always risks of flooding. Why dont you officially get diagnosed, instead of thinking Dr. Joe knows best? Next time have more tapioca before trying to dissect basic articles. And, yes your ass would have exploded just like cells do when they can't clear the bile. The toilet or plumbing are other stages of the problem.
" The nomenclature can refer to toxic bile acid build-up causing injury to hepatocytes or biliary tree damage, or both at once. Have you had a professional rule out the latter?"Of course. Ultrasound and blood tests. if I had biliary tree damage taking UDCA would shorten my lifespan, as I have repeatedly pointed out."The wording used was mildly overweight males. It helped them a little, but was comparable to placebo for the majority."In America, mildly overweight is not mildly overweight. Anyhow obesity induced liver failure is really SAD induced liver failure, not something UDCA can solve. It doesn't affect the point either way, so I didn't go into it.
I can have a field day with you. If you had a real case of drug induced cholestatsis, you would have serious obvious problems including intrahepatic biliary tree obstructions after all these years. You don't have shit; you don't labs proving anything, and you shouldn't be making recommendations to others without proper diagnosis. For the love of God, you only recently came to grips with the dehydration component.
You can't read. Not all the people in the test group were obese, only some were. Again read the literature. You miss the point continuously.
"All choleostatsis refers to bile blockage."False. From Wikipedia:"The two basic distinctions are an obstructive type of cholestasis where there is a mechanical blockage in the duct system such as can occur from a gallstone or malignancy, and metabolic types of cholestasis which are disturbances in bile formation that can occur because of genetic defects or acquired as a side effect of many medications."Non-production of bile != obstruction of bile ducts. 2 types of cholestasis.Ultimately I am not concerned about whether or not I get a formal diagnosis; I am concerned about performance.
" ALSO, I AM SURE THE RESEARCHERS ARE FEVERISHLY TRYING TO WORK OUT HOW TO CLEAR THE RETINOIDS FROM YOUR RECEPTORS."Sarcasm?
No, that is a serious statement.
Your error in reading comprehension was in assuming I was addressing those two articles specifically rather than UDCA treatment in general. I don't particularly care about the two articles, I just glanced at them to verify they did not contain any info new to me that was relevant to my decision. They did not.Of course I'm aware it has been used in child cases of biliary tree damage. How else could I have written about biliary atresia and this quote: "The ridiculous thing is that UDCA is so good for you there is even a DEBATE about whether people with BLOCKED BILE DUCTS should STILL take it."
But that is exactly where you said it's usage is extremely dubious; you simultaneously argue, that it's usage in those settings shouldn't even be debated because it so good, and it's a no-brainer decision. You completely subvert your own previous point to attempt to escape the intractability of your simplifications. In blockage cases you lament that many are scared to lift doses so they can get benefits, and that is stupid; you then go on to say that in blockage cases it shouldn't be used. That is where your glorious toilet analogy came into play. You end this train of misunderstanding; by saying that the articles don't apply when unwell people were made much more unwell with dosages that were not overly high, and the doctors were surprised. You argue that the doctors were fully aware and happy for them to descend further. No clue.
Note that you are also contributing to the error. It is bile caniculi -> canals of hering -> bile ductules -> intrahepatic bile ducts -> duct -> duct -> duct. In other words, the smallest upstream capillaries are not called ducts. The quote to which you objected uses the word "duct", not "biliary tree", and thus is referring only to the larger portals.
I am not contributing to anything; you are thick, and the passages you have just quoted from medical texts highlighting your new found understanding aren't impressive. I never said they were, they are the canaliculi." Bile formation begins in bile canaliculi that form between two adjacent surfaces of liver cells." I just referred to the whole structure as a "tree" because it is all one big network, and, for the sake of brevity. It still took you years to consider this, despite all the classic markers that you NOW see. I will not be drawn into more discussion with this on you. Your ego cannot take constructive critique; you should really get that checked out.
What do you recommend as an alternative to detox the liver? So far I have only gotten similar - sometimes even better - results by doing a combination of liver flushing and colon hydro theraphy.
In the past I have used Chinese bitters, and it made me capable of standing on my own two feet. It ultimately required higher and higher doses to work. Although, my liver labs were brilliant to begin with, things began to decline in that regard. It is definitely a case of diminishing returns.
In general, the Accutane-likely stuff sounds like things UDCA is very good at reversing. The exception would be if it's progressive, in which case use UDCA unless/until it progresses to the point where UDCA starts doing more harm than good. Then get a transplant.
Now he is saying use it until you need a transplant. What a moron, indeed.
On the contrary, none of your self-contradictory quibbles change any of my recommendations, except at the below 1% probability range, and even then, not materially, since medical supervision would commence before they became relevant. The real payoff is a better understanding of how Accutane may induce long term cholestasis and related problems. So my satisficing heuristics proved perfectly reliable, andyour predictable ego has managed to serve the greater good.
It seems that aside from Jospeh, who I really thank for having made me aware of UDCA, I am the only one who has tried it.
What it basically boils down to is you go to the doctor and he will assess whether or not the drug is safe for you. I hope that the discussion between Joseph and Camaroz doesn't scare people, whom UDCA may have helped, away from trying it.
Looking at your discussion it is obvious that you guys are at opposite ends of a spectrum. On the one end of the spectrum we have Joseph who essentially claims that UDCA is one of the best things that ever happened to him and that it is virtually completely safe, on the other end we have Camaroz who thinks UDCA is a very scary drug that is potentially life threatening.
The truth probably lies somewhere in between. In my case not much if any liver testing was done before I got the presription. I take the drug and I would see a doctor as soon as I would feel something is not going according to plan.
I personally would enourage anybody who suspects the underlying problem to be rooted in the liver to give UDCA a shot and do some research on their own.
"ideosyncratic, poorly understood, hard to detect, chronic drug induced cholestasis"
All of those words are quotes from the papers I linked which you obviously haven't read, Camaroz.
Cheers Believe. Of course there's nothing wrong with getting a doctor's opinion, but just because he won't prescribe it doesn't mean you shouldn't try it.
On the one end of the spectrum we have Joseph who essentially claims that UDCA is one of the best things that ever happened to him and that it is virtually completely safe, on the other end we have Camaroz who thinks UDCA is a very scary drug that is potentially life threatening.
Joseph's suggestion are to take UDCA as, "It might be ideosyncratic, poorly understood, hard to detect, chronic drug induced cholestasis." He advises this, because he has no other current bullshit obsessions to recommend as the "cure." Or, take UDCA, if you actually have cholestasis, and don't worry about it fucking up your liver more, because you are definitely going to need a transplant." He easily has the worst comprehension skills of anyone on this thread.
"ideosyncratic, poorly understood, hard to detect, chronic drug induced cholestasis"
All of those words are quotes from the papers I linked which you obviously haven't read, Camaroz.
Oh, you mean the words you obviously cut and paste from knowledgeable people because you desperately want to sound intelligent and you can't on your own. I am still staggered at your inability to get the point ever.
Yeah, sorry Joseph these were your words: "In general, the Accutane-likely stuff sounds like things UDCA is very good at reversing. The exception would be if it's progressive, in which case use UDCA unless/until it progresses to the point where UDCA starts doing more harm than good. Then get a transplant." Yes, those were your exact words. If a doctor led you down this path you could sue without question for negligence. Absolute garbage.
"When you were beating me, I had no problem humbly acknowledging it." Rubbish, you elided till the end. It has not been the first time I had to reign you in and it won't be the last. I don't how many time you have claimed victory over this syndrome - all lies.
" unless/until it progresses to the point where UDCA starts doing more harm than good."
You wouldn't be able to sue for negligence, because the UDCA was discontinued before it started doing net harm, dummy.
"I don't how many time you have claimed victory over this syndrome - all lies."
Not at all. In earlier phases, victories constituted fluctuations between level 0 and level 1, primarily. Now I am stable at level 4, even with all-nighters.
Levels:
0 bedridden invalid
1 can do something. paid work unlikely.
2 can do part time work, with some difficulty
3 can do full time work with significant struggle
4 can do full time work with only minor struggle, if any
The problem with the word "cured" is that it is too blunt an object. Therefore I am happy to clarify my meaning.
Yeah that is why you failed to comment at ALL when we were discussing this. Just give to research, please. You don't have this and Joe does not have this. ALSO, I AM SURE THE RESEARCHERS ARE FEVERISHLY TRYING TO WORK OUT HOW TO CLEAR THE RETINOIDS FROM YOUR RECEPTORS. If storage issues are at work, they play a small role, not the principle role as you always allude to. The problem is the drug inhibiting it's own metabolism., amongst other things.
I see no purpose in getting into a slagging match with you, your opinion is your own and it's an interesting opinion, i respect it, but i respectfully disagree. Research says a lot of things, research is why we have chemotherapy drugs being pumped into people with cancer, damaging the body much more than it heals, it's why we have hugely toxic amounts of vitamin A being given to children for their acne problems. Medicine and medical research is still in it's dark ages, people will look back in many years time and see that it was a business venture not a health promoting exercise.
What you fail to understand is the simplicity of it, pump people full of a synthetic retinoid and some people are going to get symptoms of hypervitaminosis A. Of course it isn't the same exactly, because retinoic acid is not retinol, but the symptoms are similar in certain aspects. If it was just a DHT thing, why are so many people reacting to eating retinol in foods on this thread, well after stopping accutane? if your research can explain that i'll take notice.