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sw cub said:Andy-do you think the shedding of short hairs could do with the particular follicle they are coming out of being more succeptible to TE. I ask this because if a new short hair falls out, that means it recently went into the telogen phase twice.
That's a good question. I'll take a shot at it, in my typically crazy way:
I have a theory that we lost the hairs we lost because they were closer to the end of their anagen phase. Let's say a hair remains in the anagen phase for 4 years. Then the hairs we lost had grown for maybe three years, and the Accutane fast-forwarded them to the end of their anagen phase. I have another theory as to how such fast-forwarding occurs. I believe that vitamin A is what signals the hair to go through the steps of the anagen phase and eventually into the telogen phase. An excess of vitamin A would have sped this up. See here, if you dare: [Edited link out]
I'm not sure this is even biologically possible, but what if the hair that grew next, which was still in the presence of excess vitamin A, immediately entered the catagen phase? Read this, from the study above:
"In organ-cultured human scalp follicles, ATRA [retinol acid; excess vitamin A] induces cessation of pigmentation, the shape of the DP changes to a more condensed arrangement, the volume of the hair matrix compartment diminishes, and the pigmented lower end of the hair shaft moves upwards - all these are hallmarks of catagen development"
According to keratin.com, the catagen phase lasts 2 to 4 weeks. This would produce a slightly pigmented, fine hair of about half-an-inch. Isn't that the length of the short hairs we've been losing?
In summary: we lost the hair we lost because that hair was old. And as new hair grew, it went straight to catagen. And catagen is then followed by the telogen.
ahh. thanks for the informative reply. so in your estimation will the hairs eventually stop going straight into the catagen phase?
Yes, that's my hope. Once the excess vitamin A subsides, which is probably 2 months after the initial shed.
One interesting thing, though, is that the chemical that metabolizes vitamin A is stored in sebum. I wonder if a lack of sebum, and therefore a lack of metabolite, contributes to the problem.
I am now 4.5 months post tane and started noticing these tapered hairs recently. Some of them are only a half inch, while some of them are up to a couple inches long (I haven't got my hair cut in a long time by the way). They aren't fine or lightly pigmented, most of them are dark and thick. They really freak me out though because it is a sign that my anagen phase is only lasting a very short period.
It would be great if people could reply and say if they have experienced these short tapered hairs falling out so I will know if its a normal thing with TE or whether it is an issue for concern.
Also Andy- did you notice these tapered hairs falling out? If so, have things improved at all or are you still seeing them?
I'm having the same thing cub, so has jade...
Could you all do me a favour and take ibuprofen (non steroidal anti inflammatory) for a week to see if your shedding changes at all? i have a theory and would like you all to chip in if you would be so kind...
They are very safe btw, you have probably taken them for a headache before...
Guys I really need some help and advice as to what I should do and who I should see as my physical condition is rapidly deteriorating along with my hair. The thing is I think accutane is only partly to blame because a lot of this occurred after I decided to take propecia so I believe it was some sort of combination of the two in my system at once. This is what has freaked me out about propecia all along and i am deathly afraid of starting it again. The thing is I believe that perhaps due initially to accutane my THYROID gland became out of wack and I have some sort of autoimmune disorder, ie hypothyroidism. This is basically what happened to me physically from the time I started to accutane to where I am now. Before accutane I was in great health at 20 years old. I played soccer, was in top shape, could run forever day after day, and I would say that my body fat was probably only around 7-8%. Granted I am a small guy too only 5'6 155lbs, but i consider myself in top physical condition. When I started accutane in august of last year I was only taking 20mg for the first couple of months and my symptoms besides some dry lips and skin were nonexistent. After I jumped to 40mg in October I noticed a small amount of hair loss but nothing that was so significant to make me stop the drug. I only really was shedding hair in the shower with the amount being around 10-15. Anyway physically we were in the middle of our soccer season, and I didn't really notice much by the way of side effects except that my muscles were slightly tighter and sorer, but it really was nothing significant at all. Anyway, once the season was over I continued my treatment and in December i got a terrible case of whopping cough. Whether that was related to the accutane or not i have no clue but i had it for about a month and it just sucked all around. Anyway as my treatment came to an end in January that's when the hair loss really picked up etc. After finishing the treatment at the beginning of February i didn't really notice anything significant besides the hair loss. Then once April rolled around and i started my two week or so stint on propecia everything went to hell. I started losing the ability to hit deep sleep, I had erection problems along with no sex drive, i had fatigue, brain fog, etc etc etc the list goes on. It was around this time that i also noticed a gain in weight and loss of muscle. i felt that it gave me adrenal fatigue and perhaps more hair loss in the long run.
Then over the summer I started putting weight on in a dramatic fashion and still sort of am the thing is it doesn't make sense I work out every day for soccer and i barely eat now at all. My usual weight of 155 has ballooned to 165 and i can't lose a single pound of it. Also before the soccer season i was training and running very hard every day for it, and instead of getting in better shape my legs and body seemed to be sort of breaking down. I found it difficult to recover and despite my efforts to and hardcore working out everyday i still really couldn't get in shape or loss weight. I still have fatigue and concentration problems and everything sort of points to a problem with my thyroid. I had blood work done once awhile ago but i think i need to see a specialist who can do more extensive testing. Does anyone know what type of doctor i should see or what I should do?
hi,
I have a question. If i have a diffuse amount of slightly less pigmented hair on the left, front temple region of my scalp, what does that mean? I have had these slightly less pigmented hairs even during my accutane treatment. I was on 40mg for 2 months and 80mg for 3weeks. I lose about 30 hairs per day and have noticed a definite decrease in hair texture. My hair has become very thin. Do the less pigmented hairs mean that I will permanently lose those follicles? Thanks for the input. Also, i noticed that on the hairs that i lose, the bulb and hair follicle is very thin.
ithappens said:Guys I really need some help and advice as to what I should do and who I should see as my physical condition is rapidly deteriorating along with my hair. The thing is I think accutane is only partly to blame because a lot of this occurred after I decided to take propecia so I believe it was some sort of combination of the two in my system at once. This is what has freaked me out about propecia all along and i am deathly afraid of starting it again. The thing is I believe that perhaps due initially to accutane my THYROID gland became out of wack and I have some sort of autoimmune disorder, ie hypothyroidism. This is basically what happened to me physically from the time I started to accutane to where I am now. Before accutane I was in great health at 20 years old. I played soccer, was in top shape, could run forever day after day, and I would say that my body fat was probably only around 7-8%. Granted I am a small guy too only 5'6 155lbs, but i consider myself in top physical condition. When I started accutane in august of last year I was only taking 20mg for the first couple of months and my symptoms besides some dry lips and skin were nonexistent. After I jumped to 40mg in October I noticed a small amount of hair loss but nothing that was so significant to make me stop the drug. I only really was shedding hair in the shower with the amount being around 10-15. Anyway physically we were in the middle of our soccer season, and I didn't really notice much by the way of side effects except that my muscles were slightly tighter and sorer, but it really was nothing significant at all. Anyway, once the season was over I continued my treatment and in December i got a terrible case of whopping cough. Whether that was related to the accutane or not i have no clue but i had it for about a month and it just sucked all around. Anyway as my treatment came to an end in January that's when the hair loss really picked up etc. After finishing the treatment at the beginning of February i didn't really notice anything significant besides the hair loss. Then once April rolled around and i started my two week or so stint on propecia everything went to hell. I started losing the ability to hit deep sleep, I had erection problems along with no sex drive, i had fatigue, brain fog, etc etc etc the list goes on. It was around this time that i also noticed a gain in weight and loss of muscle. i felt that it gave me adrenal fatigue and perhaps more hair loss in the long run.Then over the summer I started putting weight on in a dramatic fashion and still sort of am the thing is it doesn't make sense I work out every day for soccer and i barely eat now at all. My usual weight of 155 has ballooned to 165 and i can't lose a single pound of it. Also before the soccer season i was training and running very hard every day for it, and instead of getting in better shape my legs and body seemed to be sort of breaking down. I found it difficult to recover and despite my efforts to and hardcore working out everyday i still really couldn't get in shape or loss weight. I still have fatigue and concentration problems and everything sort of points to a problem with my thyroid. I had blood work done once awhile ago but i think i need to see a specialist who can do more extensive testing. Does anyone know what type of doctor i should see or what I should do?
Hey man, i'm in a similar situation, it is hard to know what specialist to go and see!! I don't have any fatigue like you and i have no trouble gaining muscle and my weight. It is very frustrating not being able to get answers, but i'm not going to give up. I'm still awaiting my ANA results (i have had all sorts of other tests done all came back normal) and i will be requesting an ANCA, the ANCA will hopefully detect any vasulitis, and if it also comes back negative i am going to demand and biopsy of the effect tissue. I know there is something wrong with my cappilaries in my case.
I don't know what to suggest for you, i think in our cases you need to tell them what you want....
ayelens said:hi,I have a question. If i have a diffuse amount of slightly less pigmented hair on the left, front temple region of my scalp, what does that mean? I have had these slightly less pigmented hairs even during my accutane treatment. I was on 40mg for 2 months and 80mg for 3weeks. I lose about 30 hairs per day and have noticed a definite decrease in hair texture. My hair has become very thin. Do the less pigmented hairs mean that I will permanently lose those follicles? Thanks for the input. Also, i noticed that on the hairs that i lose, the bulb and hair follicle is very thin.
Did your hairloss begin suddenly? and how long has the shedding been apparent for?
I am now 4.5 months post tane and started noticing these tapered hairs recently. Some of them are only a half inch, while some of them are up to a couple inches long (I haven't got my hair cut in a long time by the way). They aren't fine or lightly pigmented, most of them are dark and thick. They really freak me out though because it is a sign that my anagen phase is only lasting a very short period.
It would be great if people could reply and say if they have experienced these short tapered hairs falling out so I will know if its a normal thing with TE or whether it is an issue for concern.
Also Andy- did you notice these tapered hairs falling out? If so, have things improved at all or are you still seeing them?
I have indeed been shedding some tapered hairs. I really don't know how to assess my situation anymore. On the one hand, I see a lot of short hairs everywhere I part my hair. My hair is definitely growing back, as has been confirmed by at least one doctor. And according to the same doctor, hair will keep coming back over the same number of months as the number of months I shed - i.e., 4. Though my bilateral hairline had started slightly receding, I see new hairs filling it back in.
On the other hand, I continue to shed a little (about 40 hairs a day) and my hair is still thin. I think less thin than when this started, but thin nonetheless. The hairs I now shed are not tapered, but long, pigmented, and thick.
In short, I am confused. But I guess I have to give it 2 more months - I've been regrowing hair for 2 months, which means I have 2 more months to go before I reach the magic number 4 I noted above. Plus, I'm using Rogaine and Propecia, which should have an effect, if any, by then.
Ithappens: Get your thyroid checked. And keep this in mind about the Propecia: most of the side effects go away 2 to 3 weeks into treatment. I had slight breast pain, but it's now gone.
I know most of us are now afraid of medications. But we need to be rational about this. Accutane was a powerful, dangerous drug. Hair drugs are far less dangerous.
I go from being optimistic to being pessimistic every other day. I don't know what to expect, but I do know I have to wait a couple of more months before I can make a judgment. In other words, I have to wait until a year after I began shedding to know what's going on.
dude, you can't do comparisons like that ande. Accutane is a powerful drug, but that doesn't make it justifiable to put more drugs in your system. I am a biochem major in college, and the more I study, the greater appreciation i have for the chemical balance that our bodies have. After taking accutane, your body fought off the chemical imbalance and did it's best to adjust back to homeostasis. By taking propecia and other medications you are just ruining that balance. I am against all medications, only in extreme situations. You have to just trust your body for now and see what it does.
so exactly what does less pigmented hair mean???
dude, you can't do comparisons like that ande. Accutane is a powerful drug, but that doesn't make it justifiable to put more drugs in your system. I am a biochem major in college, and the more I study, the greater appreciation i have for the chemical balance that our bodies have. After taking accutane, your body fought off the chemical imbalance and did it's best to adjust back to homeostasis. By taking propecia and other medications you are just ruining that balance. I am against all medications, only in extreme situations. You have to just trust your body for now and see what it does.
so exactly what does less pigmented hair mean???
Accutane essentially caused a vitamin A toxicity, which can do permanent damage. A drug like Propecia blocks the creation of DHT and only on the temporary basis of usage of the drug - i.e., the DHT will come back when you stop taking the drug. I appreciate the balances in the body, too, but does this mean that you will refuse aspirin in the case of a headache? Or that you'll refuse chemotherapy in the case of cancer? But let's not debate this. I appreciate the point you're making.
Less pigmented means not unpigmented - i.e., not completely transparent like peach fuzz, but not black like the rest of my hairs.
I agree, i won't be touching propecia until it gets really desperate, if ever.... I will probably start minox soon though. I think id rather shell out for an expensive hair piece then take propecia!!
I'm telling you guys: Propecia isn't that bad. I would rather shave my head than get a hair piece. It's interesting: everybody tells me, for instance, that my hair looks normal. But it's not the look of my hair that I care about, but how it feels on my head. A hair piece would drive me crazy.
so if i have some slightly less pigmented hair what does that mean?
It can one of two things:
1. The hair follicle has recovered from telogen effluvium and is producing hair again. At least according to some hair transplant websites, when hair begins to grow from a follicle that was recently inactive, the first cycle usually includes fine, less pigmented hair.
2. You (and I) might have male-pattern baldness, and the fine, less pigmented hair is actually miniaturized.
I don't believe there's a way to figure out which one it is. Which is why I'm hedging my bets by using Rogaine and Propecia.
Ayelens it is hard to say, it could be vasculitus as i suspect i have in my case, or it could be MPB, it could even just be TE as hairs don't have chance to grow to the same diameter in TE....
Mark,
About your potential vasculitis: I'd wait until you get your ANA test back. I bet you're OK. You've seen regrowth, right? Remember that? If you're regrowing hair, you'll be OK.
I dunno buddy, yes i see tonnes of regrowth, but i really don't understand these red broken capilaries showing up on my body (they are broken caps they dont disapear) i have to get a red hot pin to pop them (the ones on my body). and im getting IPL for the ones on my face... After i get my ana results, as if i have lupus laser wouldn't be wise...
But remember julius (and many similar stories i have read)? he has constant regrowth but still looses it to this day... i was loosing a CRAZY amount last few weeks litraly 400 hairs a day...
I know i sound like a complete hypocondriac but i also have liniar scars appear on my face very very shallow but scars none the less i got a few back when my hairloss started, and ive had a few appear in the last week or two... the ones i got months back haven't gone.
I don't care if i sound crazy it is what is happening to me.. there is a girl on this forum who has had a similar experience to me...
I dunno buddy, yes i see tonnes of regrowth, but i really don't understand these red broken capilaries showing up on my body (they are broken caps they dont disapear) i have to get a red hot pin to pop them (the ones on my body). and im getting IPL for the ones on my face... After i get my ana results, as if i have lupus laser wouldn't be wise...
But remember julius (and many similar stories i have read)? he has constant regrowth but still looses it to this day... i was loosing a CRAZY amount last few weeks litraly 400 hairs a day...
I know i sound like a complete hypocondriac but i also have liniar scars appear on my face very very shallow but scars none the less i got a few back when my hairloss started, and ive had a few appear in the last week or two... the ones i got months back haven't gone.
I don't care if i sound crazy it is what is happening to me.. there is a girl on this forum who has had a similar experience to me...
Are you sure they're broken capillaries? Check this out: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/folliculi...0512/DSECTION=2
Ithappens had something not exactly the same, but something similar.
One thing that I find interesting is that despite the amount of hair that I have shed, my hair still doesn't look too much thinner. Maybe this is due to the type of hair that I have (wavy when short but curly when long) or the fact that I haven't got it cut in a while. Maybe this also means I'm having good regrowth, although I don't see small hairs on my head sticking up, I seem to be losing a lot of small tapered hairs lately. I don't know if I should be happy that a lot of hair is growing back or upset because of the extremely short anagen cycle.