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I agree with you that adipose derived stem cells/fat cells are a shot in the dark, but if someone refuses to take propecia/avodart/maybe ru, what other options do they have?
The potential cure has no bearing on the theory. It is a fact that COA directly affects lipid metabolism, that's why it cured our acne. It's also a fact that altered lipid metabolism causes disruption to hair follicles. To treat any disease properly we need to know the actual cause.
I'm also tired of people pitching products (b1, etc) to desperate people. If we have a working theory at least we can ask what does b1, etc have to do with lipid metabolism/mpb.
*it's probably more accurate to call what we have DUPA rather then MBP, nonetheless they are treated with the same medications
He wrote this.
Elessar - For me, a lipid problem usually means a nutrient problem. Using a pharmacological dose of an isolated, albeit activated nutrient may cause side-effects.
The entire B-complex is needed. Also there are other nutrients that are needed.
Also, there's a lot of confusion surrounding DHT itself, which is another matter. Probably the worst thing is that labs are looked at without an understanding of the entire system. The root of the problem is often ignored in favor of a particular lab value being out of range or with the use of an isolated fraction.
I might look at single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs), but ultimately a full medical history and identification of the origin of where the underlying inflammation problem exists.
He didn't say much
1. Nutrient problem=try more supplements
2. Full medical history=blood work, etc
3. Inflammation=common itching many experience. Nizoral is anti-inflammatory
4. SNPs=get genetic testing
We were all normal, except we had acne. Took B5, and hair falls out. Now we stop B5 and have acne/hairloss. Then we take propecia, and get hypogonadism. Now we stop propecia and have acne/hairloss/low T. Now time to play with our genetics...
Where do we draw the line?
My hair is definitely getting better. 2-4 weeks ago when I stood close to a mirror I could see the scalp through my hair almost all over head. Same when my hair was all wet after a shower.
Now when I'm standing close to a mirror I can see the scalp maybe only 1-3 cm up from the hairline, and almost nothing at all when my hair is all wet. I can both see and feel that my hair is getting thicker. Even seems like my hairline is getting thicker but to soon to tell.
Ofcourse it could be because my hair is getting longer but we all know that the hair doesnt grow much in only 2-4 weeks.
If I compare my hair now and my hair 4 months ago with same length its a big improvement.
I have not used any DHT blockers like propecia/avodart and no minox
Been trying to eat healthy for almost 7 months now, trying to get lots of good fats and protein and cut down on bad carbs/sugar.
Constantly taking supplements like
D vitamin 5 -15k iu/day
magnesium,
zinc,
fish oil,
MSM, started on 1g/day and increasing 1g every week. Currently on 5g/day
curcummin,
b vitamins from liver powder,
Vitamin E/Tocosorb,
probiotics,
garlic oil capsules,
green tea extract,
Olive leaf extract,
digestive enzymes
green superfood shake everyday from Green Vibrance.
And ofcourse the vitamin b1 when the guy in this thread said it would help, been cutting down on b1 and havent noticed any changes.
I have no fucking idea to be honest if anything of this helps but what you can see is that when I noticed hair falling out and getting a itchy scalp/dermatitis I started trying to eat as healthy as possible and taking supplements which are supposed to be good and healthy for you. It's like im a fking supplement addict
This is all I can say, I dont know what helped me. I don't know what caused my problems too since I havent got any tests and we dont even know for sure what B5 does to mess us up like this. (If it is B5 that created these problems, like how can I even know that?)
I agree with you that adipose derived stem cells/fat cells are a shot in the dark, but if someone refuses to take propecia/avodart/maybe ru, what other options do they have?
The potential cure has no bearing on the theory. It is a fact that COA directly affects lipid metabolism, that's why it cured our acne. It's also a fact that altered lipid metabolism causes disruption to hair follicles. To treat any disease properly we need to know the actual cause.
I'm also tired of people pitching products (b1, etc) to desperate people. If we have a working theory at least we can ask what does b1, etc have to do with lipid metabolism/mpb.
*it's probably more accurate to call what we have DUPA rather then MBP, nonetheless they are treated with the same medications
Do we have any actual studies linking CoA to sebum output?
Sebum is controlled by insulin/igf-1 and androgens, and maybe to some degree cortisol. By follicles can produce androgens locally via cholesterol, so it makes sense CoA would be involved somehow.
Thats great Elessarx, keep us updated. Might want to test Vit D, thats a very high dosage and it's fat soluble.
You said you are supplementing B vitamins. How much B3 and B6 per day?
I agree with you that adipose derived stem cells/fat cells are a shot in the dark, but if someone refuses to take propecia/avodart/maybe ru, what other options do they have?
The potential cure has no bearing on the theory. It is a fact that COA directly affects lipid metabolism, that's why it cured our acne. It's also a fact that altered lipid metabolism causes disruption to hair follicles. To treat any disease properly we need to know the actual cause.
I'm also tired of people pitching products (b1, etc) to desperate people. If we have a working theory at least we can ask what does b1, etc have to do with lipid metabolism/mpb.
*it's probably more accurate to call what we have DUPA rather then MBP, nonetheless they are treated with the same medications
Do we have any actual studies linking CoA to sebum output?
Sebum is controlled by insulin/igf-1 and androgens, and maybe to some degree cortisol. By follicles can produce androgens locally via cholesterol, so it makes sense CoA would be involved somehow.
Dr. Leung's paper is linked on page 1.
COA is NOT controlling sebum production DIRECTLY. Sebum's major component is lipids/triglyceride. By helping to metabolize those lipids as an energy source, there are less building blocks to make sebum.
It's possible all the extra COA helped metabolize the lipids in our scalp and now the hair follicles are no longer receiving the correct signaling from the lipids. Many different possibilities dealing with lipids alone, very complex.
For those looking for supplements, I found this study.
2006 FEB 21 - (LawRx.com) -- Excess pantothenic acid administration increases B6 catabolite excretion in the urine of a rat model.
"In a recently published article, scientists in Japan conducted a study "to acquire the data concerning the tolerable upper intake level which prevents health problems from an excessive intake of pantothenic acid, an animal experiment was done. Rats of the Wistar strain (male, 3 wk old) were fed on a diet which contains 0%, 0.0016% (control group), 1%, or 3% calcium pantothenate for 29 d."
K. Shibata and colleagues at the University Shiga Prefecture explained, "The amount of weight increase, the food intake, and the organ weights were measured, as well as the pantothenic acid contents in urine, the liver and blood. Moreover, to learn the influence of excessive pantothenic acid on other water-soluble vitamin metabolism, thiamin, riboflavin, a vitamin B6 catabolite, the niacin catabolites, and ascorbic acid in urine were measured."
They determined, "As for the 3% addition group, enlargement of the testis, diarrhea, and hair damage were observed, and the amount of weight increase and the food intake were less than those of the control group. However, abnormality was not seen in the 1% addition group. The amount of pantothenic acid in urine, the liver, and blood showed a high correlation with intake level of pantothenic acid."
The investigators concluded, "It was only for 4-pyridoxic acid, a vitamin B6 catabolite, in urine that a remarkable difference was observed against the control group. Moreover, the (2-Py+4-Py)/ MNA excretion ratio for these metabolites of the nicotinamide also indicated a low value in the 3% pantothenic acid group. As for the calcium pantothenate, it was found that the 3% level in the diet was the lowest-observed-adverse-effect-level (LOAEL) and the 1% level was the no-observed-adverse-effect-level (NOAEL)."
Shibata and colleagues published their study in the Journal of Nutritional Science and Vitaminology (Effects of excess pantothenic acid administration on the other water-soluble vitamin metabolisms in rats. J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo), 2005;51(6):385-391).
For more information, contact K. Shibata, University of Shiga Prefecture, School Human Cultures, Dept. Life Style Studies, Laboratories Food Science & Nutrition, Shiga 5228533, Japan.
Publisher contact information for the Journal of Nutritional Science and Vitaminology is: Center Academic Publ Japan, 2-4-16 Yayoi, Bunkyo-Ku, Tokyo, 113-0032, Japan.
So we can try supplementing with B6 and Nicotinamide (B3)
It is not possible to supplement at the same ratio we supplemented with B5. Here is the math.
B5 rda 5mg- 10000mg(10g)/5mg= 2000%
B6 rda 1.3mg- 1.3x2000=2600mg(2.6g)
*Sensory neuropathy typically develops at doses of pyridoxine in excess of 1,000 mg per day but adverse effects can occur with much less and, therefore, doses over 200 mg are not considered safe
B3 rda 16mg- 16x2000=32000mg(32g)
*Pharmacological doses of niacin (1.5 - 6 g per day) lead to side effects that can include dermatological conditions such as skin flushing and itching, dry skin, and skin rashes including eczema exacerbation and acanthosis nigricans
So Max Safe Supplementing=
200-1000mg for B6. 1.5-6g for B3
Vitamin B3 (niacin) affects lipids.
In 1955, Altschul and colleagues described niacin as having a lipid lowering property.[14]Niacin is the oldest lipid lowering drug. It reduces secondary outcomes associated with atherosclerosis, such as low density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL), very low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (VLDL-C), and triglycerides (TG), but increases high density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL)
Improving vascular endothelial function has been reported in few experiments using niacin. In an experiment on type 2 diabetes, nicotinic acid improved endothelial function comparing with control. Daily dose of 1 g niacin shows significant lipid modifying properties and reach the plateau using 2 grams
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niacin
Vitamin B6 affects lipids
Vitamin B6 is involved in the following metabolic processes:
- amino acid, glucose and lipid metabolism
Vitamin B6 is also required for the conversion of tryptophan to niacin, so low vitamin B6 status will impair this conversion
Progesterone is filling in my receding hairline on the sides, no question about it.
I'm not even worried about this stuff anymore. Lovin' progesterone.
nice man! Where did you buy it? Might try because of all the benefits i have heard of it
My scalp sucks, itchy dry etc but My hair is just getting better and better
@ itsoveryes. Are you gonna try supplementing with b3 and b6?
Progesterone is filling in my receding hairline on the sides, no question about it.
I'm not even worried about this stuff anymore. Lovin' progesterone.
nice man! Where did you buy it? Might try because of all the benefits i have heard of it
My scalp sucks, itchy dry etc but My hair is just getting better and better
@ itsoveryes. Are you gonna try supplementing with b3 and b6?
http://www.electricalbody.com/product/natural-progesterone-oil.htm
Yes! But havent got any news. Iv ordered b6. Obv it will not cure my hairloss but it might slow it down a bit (also on minixodil, taking 1/3 of recommnded doses). I am hoping for a miracle (u guys or a crazy scientist coming up with the cure). But my mindset is now on a hairtransplant or maybe Ill just shave my head..
Anyone alive?
Yeah, I was about to ask the same. For me things are the same. I'm using minoxidil at the temples as i have done for the last 4 months or so, but no results there. And of course the minoxidil-use is kind of pointless, as I am shedding all over. I have also tried Crescina hfsc 100 ( http://www.labosuisse.com/Crescina_HFSC_Innovation2%20AzioniRetard_int.aspx ), which had 100% effectiveness in tested subjects, but also doesn't seem to have had any effect on me. The results were after 4 months though, which has not quite passed yet (you are supposed to take for a few months and then lay it of for a few). It does also say though that it only works if hair loss is caused by MPB.
University is starting and this is messing up my relationship so not much time to post. Been on b3/b6 for a week. Good dreams and skin, hair the same. I have a appt this Friday with a derm., will try for a dht test and propecia. I intend to microdose in Bacardi/everclear at 1/30 of the normal dose and have a follow up dht test a month later. Currently using 1% nirozal shampoo everyday, and just started rogaine foam once a day. I only leave it on for 4hrs unless I get dark circles under my eyes. Trying for an internship at the dermatologist also.
Regarding lipids, have to wait and see
@mikelev
Any before/after pictures with progesterone.
Still shedding. General hair density, quality and feel very good. I seem to be only shedding at the temples though, the rest is still very thick. When I compare it to before the hair loss my hair is still as thick if not maybe even a bit thicker from the supplements/hair treatments.
Lots of short hair popping up at the hairline. The scalp problems have gone away since I've added a few drops of tea tree oil to my shampoo.
My concern is that my temples are thinning. If it continues getting worse I will consider Finasteride and Minoxidil
PS:
If somebody wants to know something about my current supplement/hair treatment regimen or wants some pics, just let me know
Travelleruk-Wouldn't bother with b1. Honestly in 2 years no one had stopped shedding except jimmy and that was from propecia and maybe hypogonadism.
Elmechanico- if you are losing at temples, where are you regrowing at the hairline? In the middle front?
*rogaine foam caused dark circles again so if anyone wants to buy it cheap, pm me, US only. If not, I'll put it up on ebay this weekend
Travelleruk-Wouldn't bother with b1. Honestly in 2 years no one had stopped shedding except jimmy and that was from propecia and maybe hypogonadism.
Elmechanico- if you are losing at temples, where are you regrowing at the hairline? In the middle front?
*rogaine foam caused dark circles again so if anyone wants to buy it cheap, pm me, US only. If not, I'll put it up on ebay this weekend
All over I think. When I use a comb to pull back the hair there's shorter hair on the sides, temples and in the middle.
I will upload some comparison shots between my hairline as a kid, two years ago and a current pic as I would like to get some second opinions from you guys, I personally can't spot a difference in my hairline in the pictures but these last few months it seemed like I have lost a lot of hair but maybe it's a lot in my head
Hey guys, just looked through all the pages and decided to make an account to post.
I took much less b5 than most other people in this thread probably did, and, though I'm not sure yet, might be experiencing some shedding. I definitely feel like my entire body is more dry dehydrated than usual. The fact that ellesarx was essentially cured simply by changing little (correct me if I'm wrong) outside of adding thiamine seems very significant, yet at this point it seems like everyone is ignoring this.
It's very possible to accumulate toxic levels of vitamins when high doses are taken chronically, and these can get stored in random organs and tissue if the body can't use/excrete them as fast as they're consumed. Perhaps thiamine antagonizes b5 and helps facilitate its removal. If this were the case, then the amount required for each person to detox would vary greatly depending on how much b5 was stored. The rate at which people accumulate toxic levels of b5 would also vary greatly depending on how healthy an individual's eliminative organs were in the first place, which would explain why some people, upon supplementation, noticed side effects in weeks, while others went years before losing hair.
A similar situation would be with mercury toxic individuals. The chelation therapy can take months to years before all symptoms go away. Given that this is a water soluble vitamin, I would imagine it wouldn't take as long, but recovery times would hypothetically be very different for different people.
Unfortunately the only way to test this would be to megadose on more b vitamins. But srsly, ellesarx was suffering from hair loss for the same reason as everyone else. I really don't think it just magically fixed itself..
Couldn't edit my post because it hasn't been approved yet, but just read somewhere that alcohol consumption inhibits thiamine metabolism..
Maybe everyone really is just suffering from a thiamine deficiency... Toxic levels of b5 would antagonize b1 and cause a deficiency over time no matter how healthy your diet is, and consuming alcohol would further reduce absorption worsen the deficiency temporarily, causing more shedding
Ofc this is all hypothetical, but I don't like the idea of people on hormone therapy for life
Also guys be careful with b6, I developed toxic symptoms with only 100 mg per day for a few weeks.
What's the longest anyone has been shedding?
Anybody has regrown what they've lost?
I am not sure if I am losing hair due to the B5 or due to minocycline as I have heard both can cause hair loss and I took them both before the shedding started
Edit:
[Edited link out]
They are saying DHEA and adrenals are causing the hair loss