Mayoclinic sucks...they recommend many things, not unlike many Western med sources, that don't help certain ailments or make them worse. In addition- they deny certain things exist- like leaky gut, for example. Adrenal fatigue makes perfect scientific sense

 

Yes, there are various crippling diseases out there, many of them with no real cure, but what other better evidence-based (meaning not solely based on testimonials) alternative is there?

"Leaky gut" is not a medically accepted diagnosis because it hasn't been definitively proven to exist. That phrase has been thrown around on the Internet for a while especially by non-medical laymen who have no clue about the specific mechanisms of how the intestines operate, let alone the diseases. Again, "leaky gut" involves a vague set of symptoms that are credible to laymen. It's absolutely unethical for people to claim that people have "leaky guts" as a fact and especially recommend unproven treatments for it when they know it's nothing but conjecture.

"Adrenal fatigue" does not make "perfect scientific sense" when the basis of the disease contradicts itself. Proponents claim that "adrenal fatigue" is measurable (quantifiable), yet blood tests can't detect it.

haha yeah I dunno it's hard to even know what's credible from pharms these days.. messed up but really their main concern is not helping people as sad as it is, it's major corporations out for their own interests for the most part. I also see what your saying Michelle, you have your point, it is interesting how adrenal fatigue if it is true and hypothyroid are very close in symptoms, as things Ive read say they go hand in hand. But that adrenal imbalance is what causes thyroid problems, so you need to fix adrenal problems first.

Whether or not its "fatigue" or whatever name ya wanna give it, I think we can agree adrenal imbalance does exist, as even the big pharm companies say does exist. And this adrenal imbalance I believe is the reason for many peoples acne that is considered homronal, along the chin/mouth area. I have been taking carlson fish oil now for about a month and just started taking hemp oil which has 500mg GLA in every TBL pretty remarkable, and I am so happy with the results. Havent had a break out in a while, everything has been great only thing I still battle is dry skin and intolerance to cold, I get hilariously cold even below 50 degrees, also have had cold/hands and feet ever since I can remember. My hands get purple, barney purple lol.

I just bought licorice and just started today so Im gonna see if there is any results.

 

Yes, sometimes some pharmaceutical companies can pull dirty tricks, like stretching the off-label laws and going so far as to create fake medical journals. However, this does not happen 100% of the time and people usually go into the medical field because they have compassion for others.

As I've said before, it's fine as long as pharmaceutical companies fund research if they have high-quality research and disclose their source of funding. It is possible for pharmaceutical companies to do that, as prescriptions/drugs have been proven to work and are part of standard care due to some of this research like statins.

While I'm glad your acne has subsided at least somewhat, I'm still concerned about your supplementation. I generally don't like supplements because they're often not proved for diseases and we really don't know what exactly is in the supplement that could be a potential hazard (bacterial, fungal, lead and mercury contamination, etc.) If your hands get that purple I'd advise you to see a doctor on that.

 

Can I kindly ask what you're doing posting in the nutritional and holistic health forum most of the time? I see your posts here a lot...most of them supporting not alternative and holistic methods, but the very Western style stuff we are all trying to get away from when we come to these threads. I don't doubt your intelligence- but I simply don't understand why you come to this section of the site, debunking and shooting down our beautiful (yes, indeed, its a lost art) holistic remedies and our lost (lost by most of the Western world) knowledge.

 

Because pseudoscience and unproven remedies are usually being promoted in these forums.

I don't want anyone to be scammed or get hurt from these so-called remedies. When I was 15, I followed terrible advice from a magazine and applied excessive BP and an alcoholic toner and shortly thereafter I nearly got ripped off from buying homeopathic tablets to "cure" my acne. I assumed "homeopathic" meant natural/herbal, and just before I bought it I Google'd it to see what it meant. Homeopathy was anything but "natural" and the worst quackery there was. I started reading more science and took college classes a few years after that, which expanded my knowledge and greatly sharpened by critical thinking skills.

Oh yes, the alternative and holistic route can look "beautiful." Marketers skillfully portray the colorful mental image of the oneness with nature, and living the simple yet exotic lives of ancient folk picking medicinal herbs from forests and giving them to an ailing boy who recovers guided by the elders' wisdom. That may not be the exact picture that's conjured up, but nevertheless they'll give alternative medicine practicioners a warm, fuzzy feeling when they consume herbal supplements and think they are a part of an "enlightened" group. Getting into that kind of lifestyle and thinking would be quite addicting and probably difficult to stop -- especially when people don't like to admit they were wrong.

Reality isn't always nice. There are very few cures to diseases and several treatments that can cause unpleasant and sometimes nasty side effects. Good science is slow and meticulous -- progress drags on for decades after intense trial and error. But people want simple answers and fast solutions. This is where the "holistic medicine" charlatans step in, soothing desperate and anxious patients with unproven and hazy "cures" that makes them feel better for a bit until they meet skeptics or their happiness fades. If mainstream medicine fails to provide suffering patients the treatments they desire, they go into the unproven, highly speculative and often contradictory world of "holistic" medicine -- with salesmen there to exploit them.

 

This isn't the homeopathic discussion forum. Its the nutrition and holistic discussion forum. You are ranting about something very different.

Yes many people are very gullible, and will buy into almost anything someone with a calm confident voice tells them. It's obvious in the amount of people still believing Obama's lies. There is definitely holistic companies out to make a buck just like pharm's, but for people who are actually educated and experienced we know a healthy lifestyle does not include taking a bunch of supplements. It's means health whole nutrient dense diet first and foremost. Good exercise and sleep, and then after that take what supplements you need to the minimal amount.

 

Doctors have been saying "eat a good diet, sleep well, minimize your stress and supplement intake" for decades. Doctors don't like to prescribe statins if it can easily be mediated with exercise and dieting, which most of it can. However people don't want to listen to them (thinking "what do they know?"), but then they get suckered into weight loss supplements because they want a quick fix, and much of the time it's the same doctor wisdom repackaged into something "prettier".

For me that's B5, Zinc, Fish OIl and digestive enzymes. I have literally studied hundreds of hours in the past on all and am well informed, Im not a clueless person just putting in random supplements hoping for the best. Ive met several doctors who I was teaching diet and supplements to because they didn't know.

 

Hundreds of hours of research means little to nothing if you don't know when to apply critical thinking, deciphering studies and statistics or don't have enough knowledge. This is exactly the reason people spend so much time in medical schooling and their learning still isn't over. Pick the wrong drug and dosage and people can die.

Organic farming and the holistic lifestyle are both persuaded against in Western medical school that is fact. The US government has done everything in its power to kill organic farming, Ive worked on organic farms myself have talked to farmers that have been farming for over 50 years who have watched the demise of organic farming.

 

There is a huge economic debate over "organic" farming, but not exactly for the reasons you think. With a rapidly growing population we need some way to effectively and cheaply feed people. It has to be sustainable and safe. The two biggest economic problems with organic farming (other than the hype surrounding it) are yield production and it requires more land then other kinds of farming. Organic farming could cause worse impacts on the environment that we're trying so hard to avoid. Into the science part, it is kind of hard to quantify how much % of "damage" is reduced (like pesticides), and the various interpretations of data doesn't make organic farming so clear-cut.

Having blind faith in your doctor is far, far worse then educating yourself and doing your own research on what is right for yourself. I regret listening blindly when I was a teenager and going through endless rounds of anti-biotics, look how many people are completely fucked in this world from the psychosis drugs being handed out like candy, all the latest mass murders were all on prescription meds that literally make you go mad. Kids starting out at 12 years old are getting on these drugs and its becoming an epidemic, destroying the mind. How many people go to the doc with a little pain and are handed Oxycontin, which is nothing more then heroin melted down and added with a few ingredients to make a pill. Kids are melting them and shooting them up all over the country, we have 10x the amount of OD's off prescription drugs in america then illegal drugs. Educate yourself, question authority.

 

I would argue the other way around in some cases. It's a good idea to ask your doctor about tests and treatments (good doctors appreciate questions) and sometimes get a second or even third opinion, but doing your own research when you don't have the critical thinking skills, patience, or knowledge can be worse. Companies buying out the top slots and using SEO software can and does slant queries to dubious and dangerous websites. I could say that I spent "hundreds of hours" researching homeopathy and concluding it works or that drinking bleach would cure stomach cancer. It wouldn't be surprising if a few people truly believe in both of these. But yes people are gullible and they want simple answers for life's complicated problems.

It's easy to blame drug X for causing a horrible tragedy, even though that's far from the case. Of course the journalists jumped on that idea because fear and bad press and sells. "News" isn't really objective as it's supposed to be because as we're all humans we all have biases. Oh yes, I have criticisms for the pharmaceutical companies, too, like creating fake medical journals and shame on the "doctors" who over-prescribe addictive pain killers to make quick profits. However there's definite disproportionate criticism on these forums when it comes to "holistic medicine" -- I've only seen a few posts criticizing homeopathy, applied kinseology, Iridology and the like.

Mayoclinic sucks...they recommend many things, not unlike many Western med sources, that don't help certain ailments or make them worse. In addition- they deny certain things exist- like leaky gut, for example. Adrenal fatigue makes perfect scientific sense

 

Yes, there are various crippling diseases out there, many of them with no real cure, but what other better evidence-based (meaning not solely based on testimonials) alternative is there?

"Leaky gut" is not a medically accepted diagnosis because it hasn't been definitively proven to exist. That phrase has been thrown around on the Internet for a while especially by non-medical laymen who have no clue about the specific mechanisms of how the intestines operate, let alone the diseases. Again, "leaky gut" involves a vague set of symptoms that are credible to laymen. It's absolutely unethical for people to claim that people have "leaky guts" as a fact and especially recommend unproven treatments for it when they know it's nothing but conjecture.

"Adrenal fatigue" does not make "perfect scientific sense" when the basis of the disease contradicts itself. Proponents claim that "adrenal fatigue" is measurable (quantifiable), yet blood tests can't detect it.

haha yeah I dunno it's hard to even know what's credible from pharms these days.. messed up but really their main concern is not helping people as sad as it is, it's major corporations out for their own interests for the most part. I also see what your saying Michelle, you have your point, it is interesting how adrenal fatigue if it is true and hypothyroid are very close in symptoms, as things Ive read say they go hand in hand. But that adrenal imbalance is what causes thyroid problems, so you need to fix adrenal problems first.

Whether or not its "fatigue" or whatever name ya wanna give it, I think we can agree adrenal imbalance does exist, as even the big pharm companies say does exist. And this adrenal imbalance I believe is the reason for many peoples acne that is considered homronal, along the chin/mouth area. I have been taking carlson fish oil now for about a month and just started taking hemp oil which has 500mg GLA in every TBL pretty remarkable, and I am so happy with the results. Havent had a break out in a while, everything has been great only thing I still battle is dry skin and intolerance to cold, I get hilariously cold even below 50 degrees, also have had cold/hands and feet ever since I can remember. My hands get purple, barney purple lol.

I just bought licorice and just started today so Im gonna see if there is any results.

 

Yes, sometimes some pharmaceutical companies can pull dirty tricks, like stretching the off-label laws and going so far as to create fake medical journals. However, this does not happen 100% of the time and people usually go into the medical field because they have compassion for others.

As I've said before, it's fine as long as pharmaceutical companies fund research if they have high-quality research and disclose their source of funding. It is possible for pharmaceutical companies to do that, as prescriptions/drugs have been proven to work and are part of standard care due to some of this research like statins.

While I'm glad your acne has subsided at least somewhat, I'm still concerned about your supplementation. I generally don't like supplements because they're often not proved for diseases and we really don't know what exactly is in the supplement that could be a potential hazard (bacterial, fungal, lead and mercury contamination, etc.) If your hands get that purple I'd advise you to see a doctor on that.

 

Can I kindly ask what you're doing posting in the nutritional and holistic health forum most of the time? I see your posts here a lot...most of them supporting not alternative and holistic methods, but the very Western style stuff we are all trying to get away from when we come to these threads. I don't doubt your intelligence- but I simply don't understand why you come to this section of the site, debunking and shooting down our beautiful (yes, indeed, its a lost art) holistic remedies and our lost (lost by most of the Western world) knowledge.

 

Because pseudoscience and unproven remedies are usually being promoted in these forums.

I don't want anyone to be scammed or get hurt from these so-called remedies. When I was 15, I followed terrible advice from a magazine and applied excessive BP and an alcoholic toner and shortly thereafter I nearly got ripped off from buying homeopathic tablets to "cure" my acne. I assumed "homeopathic" meant natural/herbal, and just before I bought it I Google'd it to see what it meant. Homeopathy was anything but "natural" and the worst quackery there was. I started reading more science and took college classes a few years after that, which expanded my knowledge and greatly sharpened by critical thinking skills.

Oh yes, the alternative and holistic route can look "beautiful." Marketers skillfully portray the colorful mental image of the oneness with nature, and living the simple yet exotic lives of ancient folk picking medicinal herbs from forests and giving them to an ailing boy who recovers guided by the elders' wisdom. That may not be the exact picture that's conjured up, but nevertheless they'll give alternative medicine practicioners a warm, fuzzy feeling when they consume herbal supplements and think they are a part of an "enlightened" group. Getting into that kind of lifestyle and thinking would be quite addicting and probably difficult to stop -- especially when people don't like to admit they were wrong.

Reality isn't always nice. There are very few cures to diseases and several treatments that can cause unpleasant and sometimes nasty side effects. Good science is slow and meticulous -- progress drags on for decades after intense trial and error. But people want simple answers and fast solutions. This is where the "holistic medicine" charlatans step in, soothing desperate and anxious patients with unproven and hazy "cures" that makes them feel better for a bit until they meet skeptics or their happiness fades. If mainstream medicine fails to provide suffering patients the treatments they desire, they go into the unproven, highly speculative and often contradictory world of "holistic" medicine -- with salesmen there to exploit them.

 

This isn't the homeopathic discussion forum. Its the nutrition and holistic discussion forum. You are ranting about something very different.

 

The point is I nearly got sucked into trying "alternative/holistic medicine" for my acne, and homeopathy is one of the many unproven or disproved "remedies" that fall on the spectrum. Homeopathy is not too different of an unproven/disproved remedy that people claim for treating/curing acne.

Doctors have proven to me time and time again that they know pretty much nothing. If you'd been completely failed by conventional medicine, you would turn to holistic medicine too.

Marketers skillfully portray the colorful mental image of the oneness with nature, and living the simple yet exotic lives of ancient folk picking medicinal herbs from forests and giving them to an ailing boy who recovers guided by the elders' wisdom.

Who is marketing anything? Most of what we talk about here is diet. No one is selling a certain type of diet. Who is marketing Paleo, the meat companies?

 

My point is how brilliant marketers are at persuasion. And yes, some people who sell the "paleo diet" may be affiliated with bigger companies or that larger corporations buy out smaller companies or create new lines to sell different products at different price points for different demographics. For example, Procter & Gamble owns Olay, and SK II, the latter having the most expensive creams in the world featuring some ferment in it. Women who buy the latter brand are into high-end beauty products. Johnson & Johnson owns the natural/herbal skin care product line Aveeno and the ubiquitous Neutrogena. It's also common for companies to buy out other companies that gives resources to make product X (vertical integration/expansion) and buying "unrelated" companies (horizontal integration/expansion).

Doctors have proven to me time and time again that they know pretty much nothing. If you'd been completely failed by conventional medicine, you would turn to holistic medicine too.

Same here. Doctors have been completely useless to me. All those decades when they told me diet had nothing to do with acne while prescribing me harmful drugs. Then when I finally realized they were wrong, changed my diet, my skin cleared up fairly quickly.

Marketers skillfully portray the colorful mental image of the oneness with nature, and living the simple yet exotic lives of ancient folk picking medicinal herbs from forests and giving them to an ailing boy who recovers guided by the elders' wisdom.

Who is marketing anything? Most of what we talk about here is diet. No one is selling a certain type of diet. Who is marketing Paleo, the meat companies?

 

Yes. Why is she ranting to us about marketers? Go somewhere where there are marketers and rant.

Doctors have proven to me time and time again that they know pretty much nothing. If you'd been completely failed by conventional medicine, you would turn to holistic medicine too.

Marketers skillfully portray the colorful mental image of the oneness with nature, and living the simple yet exotic lives of ancient folk picking medicinal herbs from forests and giving them to an ailing boy who recovers guided by the elders' wisdom.

Who is marketing anything? Most of what we talk about here is diet. No one is selling a certain type of diet. Who is marketing Paleo, the meat companies?

 

My point is how brilliant marketers are at persuasion. And yes, some people who sell the "paleo diet" may be affiliated with bigger companies or that larger corporations buy out smaller companies or create new lines to sell different products at different price points for different demographics. For example, Procter & Gamble owns Olay, and SK II, the latter having the most expensive creams in the world featuring some ferment in it. Women who buy the latter brand are into high-end beauty products. Johnson & Johnson owns the natural/herbal skin care product line Aveeno and the ubiquitous Neutrogena. It's also common for companies to buy out other companies that gives resources to make product X (vertical integration/expansion) and buying "unrelated" companies (horizontal integration/expansion).

 

I have no idea why you are ranting about that here. What does that have to do with us? I, personally, buy almost nothing from any major corp like those you mentioned above. And recommend everyone else do so as well.

Yes many people are very gullible, and will buy into almost anything someone with a calm confident voice tells them. It's obvious in the amount of people still believing Obama's lies. There is definitely holistic companies out to make a buck just like pharm's, but for people who are actually educated and experienced we know a healthy lifestyle does not include taking a bunch of supplements. It's means health whole nutrient dense diet first and foremost. Good exercise and sleep, and then after that take what supplements you need to the minimal amount.

 

Doctors have been saying "eat a good diet, sleep well, minimize your stress and supplement intake" for decades. Doctors don't like to prescribe statins if it can easily be mediated with exercise and dieting, which most of it can.

Bull shit. But I do wish that were true. Doctors have only a vague idea that healthy diet and lifestyle is good. No real comprehension of what it really does for you. Or what a bad diet does to you. Which is insane. I don't know how they can think for one minute that diet does not affect acne. There's no way it couldn't. What they know is drugs. And they love to prescribe statins. And when you read that, pronounce it looooooooooooove!

I wish a doctor would tell my mother how much diet changes would help instead of prescribing drug after drug even though they don't really know how the drugs work and do nothing to alleviate the side effects. Take statins. They put my mother on one after she had a stroke even though her lipid profile is fine. Because they recently discovered that it doesn't help with cardiovascular disease by preventing your body from making cholesterol, (the thing your body makes to repair damage to arteries,). It never did. It helps by being anti inflammatory. So now they want everyone to take it and advertise so on TV.

I argued with her doctor and when I tried to say things about diet and the number of sodas my mother drinks and the incredibly high GI nutritionally void food served in the hospital, etc, She said all things in moderation. (and she isn't the only one that said that to me. If I had a nickel..) I did manage to get her to concede that the statin was causing harm by preventing the body from making CoQ10 and so prescribed that while she was in the hospital. But I doubt now she is home, my mother is buying the supplement. She also takes a blood thinner so is told to avoid nutritionally dense foods like greens because they contain the essential nutrient vitamin K. And one of the things vitamin K does is help keep arteries clear!!

Thing is chamomile tea thins the blood. So does ginger. And any number of foods. And they are also anti inflammatory which means they would do what the unnecessary statin does. Not to mention habits like deep breathing through the nose to spread nitric oxide throughout the body to dilate blood vessels. Half the blood pressure drugs out there work by promoting nitric oxide and you can get it by breathing right!!! No side effects. And blood pressure is her actual problem. Along with the plaque in her arteries which is caused by sugar, not dietary cholesterol. They never even talked to her about the plaque. I only know because I demanded copies of all tests and records from the first doctor that cared for her immediately after the stroke. He seemed to be the only good one.

When my ex-husband was diagnosed with diabetes, which is when I got that we just plain aren't meant to be consuming this kind of sugar, his doctor immediately loaded him up on drugs. Loaded him up!!!! She said nothing about diet and exercise and didn't believe it would would help him. Meanwhile, he quit the sodas, ate a bit better and started exercising and at the next visit, got his meds cut in half. At which point she commented that most of the studies had been done on older people, so maybe a younger person could control diabetes with diet. Maybe.

The point is I nearly got sucked into trying "alternative/holistic medicine" for my acne, and homeopathy is one of the many unproven or disproved "remedies" that fall on the spectrum. Homeopathy is not too different of an unproven/disproved remedy that people claim for treating/curing acne.

 

And again, why are you ranting to us about homeopathy and whatever you let yourself get suckered into buying? It has nothing to do with us. We are talking about going to bed early, managing stress and consuming nutrients here. Things that help whatever might ail you.

Wow michelle you are incredibly arrogant lol. Hilarious how you assume so much of what others know.. yes organic farming yields yes that is the entire reason for using chemicals and fertilizers, is to get bigger yields. But those foods are also less nutrient dense, and the GMO foods they are pumping out by the masses have numerous side effects to them, scientists dont even know how much damage they really do yet. " Organic farming could cause worse impacts on the environment that we're trying so hard to avoid." WHAT?! Lmao that is extremely foolish, first off organic farming is pure and simple, mother earth, seed, water and natural fertilizers like compost, teas, and the many other organic growing rememdies out there, that is not harmful in anway and actually very healthy for our mother. Trying so hard to avoid? lmao what planet are you on? On this planet spreading mass amounts of irritating chemicals all over the lands is harmful for the earth and all life on it, I don't know if you noticed what BP is doing but big businesses dont give a damn about the health of the earth, or how it effects wild life, sadly thats only a small number of people who still have compassion for all life and the well being of our planet. The thing about organic farming is that you can't monopoly a fruit or vegetable like you can a box of cereal. There are many middle men involved in organic farming, where mass productions cuts all them out and leaves big profits for the big boys on top.

As far as the mass killers being on the prescription drugs, I didn't get that from the media, the media didn't ridicule it at all, I researched it myself and found that they were all on psychosis drugs. Where you have the media and others just think they are "crazy" people, born psycho, completely disregarding the fact that they were on drugs that completely change how you think and your entire being. Ask anyone whos been on serious anti-psychosis drugs and they will tell you.

And your argument about simple solutions makes no sense. Yeah people especially westerners are very impatient and want results right away. thats where docs and big companies come in and say "Here just take this drug! No need to get on a healthy diet, and do all that work out non sense, that takes too long!"

Doctors have proven to me time and time again that they know pretty much nothing. If you'd been completely failed by conventional medicine, you would turn to holistic medicine too.

Same here. Doctors have been completely useless to me. All those decades when they told me diet had nothing to do with acne while prescribing me harmful drugs. Then when I finally realized they were wrong, changed my diet, my skin cleared up fairly quickly.

Marketers skillfully portray the colorful mental image of the oneness with nature, and living the simple yet exotic lives of ancient folk picking medicinal herbs from forests and giving them to an ailing boy who recovers guided by the elders' wisdom.

Who is marketing anything? Most of what we talk about here is diet. No one is selling a certain type of diet. Who is marketing Paleo, the meat companies?

 

Yes. Why is she ranting to us about marketers? Go somewhere where there are marketers and rant.

Doctors have proven to me time and time again that they know pretty much nothing. If you'd been completely failed by conventional medicine, you would turn to holistic medicine too.

Marketers skillfully portray the colorful mental image of the oneness with nature, and living the simple yet exotic lives of ancient folk picking medicinal herbs from forests and giving them to an ailing boy who recovers guided by the elders' wisdom.

Who is marketing anything? Most of what we talk about here is diet. No one is selling a certain type of diet. Who is marketing Paleo, the meat companies?

 

My point is how brilliant marketers are at persuasion. And yes, some people who sell the "paleo diet" may be affiliated with bigger companies or that larger corporations buy out smaller companies or create new lines to sell different products at different price points for different demographics. For example, Procter & Gamble owns Olay, and SK II, the latter having the most expensive creams in the world featuring some ferment in it. Women who buy the latter brand are into high-end beauty products. Johnson & Johnson owns the natural/herbal skin care product line Aveeno and the ubiquitous Neutrogena. It's also common for companies to buy out other companies that gives resources to make product X (vertical integration/expansion) and buying "unrelated" companies (horizontal integration/expansion).

 

I have no idea why you are ranting about that here. What does that have to do with us? I, personally, buy almost nothing from any major corp like those you mentioned above. And recommend everyone else do so as well.

 

Unethical marketers and/or hoaxers who want to exploit people's suffering and desperation would show up on these forums. They would then introduce logical fallacies to draw the prospect into the state of mind they want. Great marketers/hoaxers would be subtle in their persuasion and exploit people's ignorance.

Doctors have proven to me time and time again that they know pretty much nothing. If you'd been completely failed by conventional medicine, you would turn to holistic medicine too.

Same here. Doctors have been completely useless to me. All those decades when they told me diet had nothing to do with acne while prescribing me harmful drugs. Then when I finally realized they were wrong, changed my diet, my skin cleared up fairly quickly.

Marketers skillfully portray the colorful mental image of the oneness with nature, and living the simple yet exotic lives of ancient folk picking medicinal herbs from forests and giving them to an ailing boy who recovers guided by the elders' wisdom.

Who is marketing anything? Most of what we talk about here is diet. No one is selling a certain type of diet. Who is marketing Paleo, the meat companies?

 

Yes. Why is she ranting to us about marketers? Go somewhere where there are marketers and rant.

Doctors have proven to me time and time again that they know pretty much nothing. If you'd been completely failed by conventional medicine, you would turn to holistic medicine too.

Marketers skillfully portray the colorful mental image of the oneness with nature, and living the simple yet exotic lives of ancient folk picking medicinal herbs from forests and giving them to an ailing boy who recovers guided by the elders' wisdom.

Who is marketing anything? Most of what we talk about here is diet. No one is selling a certain type of diet. Who is marketing Paleo, the meat companies?

 

My point is how brilliant marketers are at persuasion. And yes, some people who sell the "paleo diet" may be affiliated with bigger companies or that larger corporations buy out smaller companies or create new lines to sell different products at different price points for different demographics. For example, Procter & Gamble owns Olay, and SK II, the latter having the most expensive creams in the world featuring some ferment in it. Women who buy the latter brand are into high-end beauty products. Johnson & Johnson owns the natural/herbal skin care product line Aveeno and the ubiquitous Neutrogena. It's also common for companies to buy out other companies that gives resources to make product X (vertical integration/expansion) and buying "unrelated" companies (horizontal integration/expansion).

 

I have no idea why you are ranting about that here. What does that have to do with us? I, personally, buy almost nothing from any major corp like those you mentioned above. And recommend everyone else do so as well.

 

Unethical marketers and/or hoaxers who want to exploit people's suffering and desperation would show up on these forums. They would then introduce logical fallacies to draw the prospect into the state of mind they want. Great marketers/hoaxers would be subtle in their persuasion and exploit people's ignorance.

 

???? Ok. That would be a bad thing. If it happened more than once in a blue moon around here. And when it does, people report it. The thread is usually closed promptly. So, I repeat once again. Why are you ranting about that here? Find an instance where it is occurring and post there.

Doctors have proven to me time and time again that they know pretty much nothing. If you'd been completely failed by conventional medicine, you would turn to holistic medicine too.

Same here. Doctors have been completely useless to me. All those decades when they told me diet had nothing to do with acne while prescribing me harmful drugs. Then when I finally realized they were wrong, changed my diet, my skin cleared up fairly quickly.

Marketers skillfully portray the colorful mental image of the oneness with nature, and living the simple yet exotic lives of ancient folk picking medicinal herbs from forests and giving them to an ailing boy who recovers guided by the elders' wisdom.

Who is marketing anything? Most of what we talk about here is diet. No one is selling a certain type of diet. Who is marketing Paleo, the meat companies?

 

Yes. Why is she ranting to us about marketers? Go somewhere where there are marketers and rant.

Doctors have proven to me time and time again that they know pretty much nothing. If you'd been completely failed by conventional medicine, you would turn to holistic medicine too.

Marketers skillfully portray the colorful mental image of the oneness with nature, and living the simple yet exotic lives of ancient folk picking medicinal herbs from forests and giving them to an ailing boy who recovers guided by the elders' wisdom.

Who is marketing anything? Most of what we talk about here is diet. No one is selling a certain type of diet. Who is marketing Paleo, the meat companies?

 

My point is how brilliant marketers are at persuasion. And yes, some people who sell the "paleo diet" may be affiliated with bigger companies or that larger corporations buy out smaller companies or create new lines to sell different products at different price points for different demographics. For example, Procter & Gamble owns Olay, and SK II, the latter having the most expensive creams in the world featuring some ferment in it. Women who buy the latter brand are into high-end beauty products. Johnson & Johnson owns the natural/herbal skin care product line Aveeno and the ubiquitous Neutrogena. It's also common for companies to buy out other companies that gives resources to make product X (vertical integration/expansion) and buying "unrelated" companies (horizontal integration/expansion).

 

I have no idea why you are ranting about that here. What does that have to do with us? I, personally, buy almost nothing from any major corp like those you mentioned above. And recommend everyone else do so as well.

 

Unethical marketers and/or hoaxers who want to exploit people's suffering and desperation would show up on these forums. They would then introduce logical fallacies to draw the prospect into the state of mind they want. Great marketers/hoaxers would be subtle in their persuasion and exploit people's ignorance.

 

???? Ok. That would be a bad thing. If it happened more than once in a blue moon around here. And when it does, people report it. The thread is usually closed promptly.So, I repeat once again. Why are you ranting about that here? Find an instance where it is occurring and post there.

 

I want people to think at least twice before believing claims. If they know at least a little bit about other related topics and on how unethical marketers can be, perhaps I can prevent a guest from falling into an "cure acne" scam. Pseudoscience and quackery is everywhere on the Internet and tries to cloak itself in credibility that people can fall for, like AKL mentioned. Again hoaxers and unethical marketers can be very subtle and go undetected for a long time on the Internet and would probably do the same on these forums.

Michelle- I respectfully say, that I think you've made your point very clear, that your paranoia is rooted in "unethical marketing." I now see that you are posting out of concern for our health, and that is very kind of you. For that reason, I strongly suggest you visit CVS, Walgreens, Stop & Shop, (etc.), and every hospital that you know of. Those mentioned are the most appropriate places to warn our fellow brothers and sisters about unethical marketing!!! The time is running out and the consequences are dire!!!

Michelle- I respectfully say, that I think you've made your point very clear, that your paranoia is rooted in "unethical marketing." I now see that you are posting out of concern for our health, and that is very kind of you. For that reason, I strongly suggest you visit CVS, Walgreens, Stop & Shop, (etc.), and every hospital that you know of. Those mentioned are the most appropriate places to warn our fellow brothers and sisters about unethical marketing!!! The time is running out and the consequences are dire!!!

 

Well said. But don't forget the hospitals. Oh, and the pharmaceutical ads on tv.

Also, Michelle, I am not ignorant or vulnerable. And I spend a lot of time here and have for years. There's very little of this marketing you are so afraid of here. And when it occurs, it is stopped. If you really want to help, go where there is a problem.

Undoubtedly, SOME holistic 'cures' are nonsense. However, it's a real shame that people think this way. I just don't understand why you come on this site specifically to refute integrative medicine. I feel sorry for all the people that rely solely on Western medicine alone, especially for "prevention." The only way I would ever visit a Doctor would be for treatment, never prevention. I hope you all enjoy your wonderfully non healthy food pyramid consuming lots of "healthy" grains and dairy daily- and I equally hope you enjoy being dependent on your prescription medications, or worse, becoming a ward of the state, for ailments that could have been prevented or remedied far in advance through diet and holistic medicine. Also, I foresee the future integrating more and more Eastern, ayurvedic, holistic and alternative medicine into the mainstream...with more and more supporting science being published on it as the years draw on. All of us have our own ways of believing how to care for our bodies, please respect ours. Take care!

 

The thing is, many -if not all- holistic health preachers believe that diet and lifestyle alone are enough to prevent or even cure every disease with no substantial evidence to back that up. It's not the solution to everything. It's also not about relying on Western medicine alone. In fact, I can't even remember when I've last popped a prescription pill, nor would I visit my doc to prevent anything. Not many people will, they visit them to treat a condition. I agree that the food pyramid isn't ideal, I wonder why vegetables aren't at the basis, but with that said, there's no evidence that whole grains or dairy (especially yogurt, butter and cheese) are bad for you when consumed in moderation, but that applies to literally everything. People come up with the weirdest diseases and ailments, supposedly causing a whole array of vaguer than vague symptoms. I'm all for a more natural/holistic approach, but it has to make sense. That's what research is for. And I think modern medicine and holistic methods can go hand in hand perfectly fine.

I also don't think it is fair to say that everyone here is buying into the latest holistic fad to cure themselves of acne. There is such a depth of information here that no doubt does help people conquer acne through diet and lifestyle. I knew nothing of nutrition until I started reading posts here and expanding my knowledge. I went from vegetarian to paleo - from living off grains to living off fat. This has helped my life, let alone my face, in so many ways and I know I'm not the only one!

 

Congrats on that! But Paleo is not the answer to everybody's acne, unfortunately. I wish it was that simple.

You also don't have to be able to qualify why everything works through science. I never get sick because I take oil of oregano which strengthens my immune system - when I asked my doctor about this he told me oil of oregano is useless. That is bullshit. The fact is that doctors are schooled and trained by the pharmaceutical companies and this can't be ignored. Do they want to do harm? Of course not! But dying from a doctors hands is the third leading cause of death in the United States. I can find a source for that if you like. The point I guess I'm trying to make is take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt and always do your own research! Be an advocate of your own health. I don't think anyone should be called a quack for seeking answers to their problems through researching natural methods. That is just ignorant. Ask yourself this - did anyone ever get sick from a lack of drugs? The body naturally wants to heal itself we just have to give it the tools to do so. Maybe we also shouldn't ignore the weight our own thoughts have on our reality, stress level and ultimately our body.

 

If you make a certain claim, yes, then you'd better have substantial evidence (i.e. proper science) to prove it. That's how it works and how it should work. Where do you think all the knowledge about food, supplements, diseases and your body comes from? Nutritionists? Naturopaths? I agree that people should research everything, but they should focus on real research, not books by some doctor who's selling his own supplements to battle his fictitious disease, or bloggers who are only parroting each other. Some information here should be taken with a whole bottle of salt, a grain won't be enough. Look at Paleo. What exactly did Paleolithic people even eat? How do you know? Because they found chicken bones next to human bones?

Also, adrenal fatigue is real. Someone doesn't just go straight into having Addinsons disease, it takes time to wear the adrenals down. How do you help the adrenals? Eat tons of fat, cut grains and sugar and do not let any stress into your life. Hmm sounds like the solution to most problems of the body, no? Real food is medicine and healing holisitcaly focuses on healing the whole body, not just treating the symptoms with medications.

 

It's not, it's a made up disease with symptoms almost as vague as those linked to candida overgrowth or leaky gut syndrome. Just look at the questionnaire by this Wilson dude. It's a laugh. Using a vague list of symptoms to identify a disease is nonsense. Lab tests can't provide any meaningful information, the disease does not exist, the symptoms are caused by something else. Where's the proof that eating tons of fats or cutting grains and sugar does help your adrenal glands? It may be beneficial for your overall health (though consuming tons of fat and completely cutting grains are not imo), but it has nothing to do with your adrenal glands. Living without any stress at all is not only impossible, it's bad for your health. Adrenal glands release hormones based on input from other areas of your body, especially the brain. If adrenal glands are malfunctioning, it's because they're being "told" to do so, not because they're "tired" of producing hormones. Your glands are fine, it's something else.

Bull shit. But I do wish that were true. Doctors have only a vague idea that healthy diet and lifestyle is good. No real comprehension of what it really does for you. Or what a bad diet does to you. Which is insane. I don't know how they can think for one minute that diet does not affect acne. There's no way it couldn't. What they know is drugs.

 

My doctor knows pretty well what's good and what's not. He'd rather send you home with a recipe for a healthy soup than a prescription for drugs. Maybe he's the exception to the rule, but your theory definitely doesn't apply to all doctors. Besides that, diet can't prevent or cure everything, drugs are sometimes needed. Healthy diet/lifestyle and drugs are not mutually exclusive. Sounds like both you and your mom have a lousy doctor who doesn't look further than his/her nose is long. On the other hand, your acne improved by 70% once you found out that oranges triggered the worst of it. Who would have thought? If anyone would create a topic, claiming that oranges cause cystic acne (broad-sweeping claim, without any further clarification), would you say s/he's right? It's an exception, I don't think anyone will advice that everybody should give up oranges. It's a good example of how difficult things are and why the diet-acne connection still isn't proven. Genes play a major role (we don't even know what most of them do for the skin), we can only control so much with diet and lifestyle.

If you really want to help, go where there is a problem.

 

It's exactly what she does. Tempering the hallelujah about this fake disease called adrenal fatigue. Please stay here, Michelle, your input is highly appreciated. By me, at least With that said, I don't believe the people here are hoaxers or marketers. I'm convinced that they're trying to help others with the best intentions at heart. But it won't hurt to question things, as that's what a discussion forum is for. I agree that there's hardly any criticism here, unless you question the holistic method or call a naturopath a quack. If all that's allowed are posts agreeing with everything, no matter how hollow, we'd better start a dating forum instead of a discussion forum. Besides that, people who post here also post in non-holistic forums, telling others to stop using their proven method and replace it by a healthy diet and lifestyle, and/or all-natural topicals. You could ask yourself what on earth they're doing there, but it's fine, makes people think. In my opinion, diet/lifestyle should always be the basis, I just don't think there's any reason at all why you couldn't post here. Ind1g0 said that you may be "paranoid" about unethical marketing, others are at least as paranoid about holistic methods. Hopefully we can all learn from each other and get rid of the hostile attitude towards people who do not agree with everything that's being said here.

Undoubtedly, SOME holistic 'cures' are nonsense. However, it's a real shame that people think this way. I just don't understand why you come on this site specifically to refute integrative medicine. I feel sorry for all the people that rely solely on Western medicine alone, especially for "prevention." The only way I would ever visit a Doctor would be for treatment, never prevention. I hope you all enjoy your wonderfully non healthy food pyramid consuming lots of "healthy" grains and dairy daily- and I equally hope you enjoy being dependent on your prescription medications, or worse, becoming a ward of the state, for ailments that could have been prevented or remedied far in advance through diet and holistic medicine. Also, I foresee the future integrating more and more Eastern, ayurvedic, holistic and alternative medicine into the mainstream...with more and more supporting science being published on it as the years draw on. All of us have our own ways of believing how to care for our bodies, please respect ours. Take care!

 

The thing is, many -if not all- holistic health preachers believe that diet and lifestyle alone are enough to prevent or even cure every disease with no substantial evidence to back that up. It's not the solution to everything. It's also not about relying on Western medicine alone. In fact, I can't even remember when I've last popped a prescription pill, nor would I visit my doc to prevent anything. Not many people will, they visit them to treat a condition. I agree that the food pyramid isn't ideal, I wonder why vegetables aren't at the basis, but with that said, there's no evidence that whole grains or dairy (especially yogurt, butter and cheese) are bad for you when consumed in moderation, but that applies to literally everything. People come up with the weirdest diseases and ailments, supposedly causing a whole array of vaguer than vague symptoms. I'm all for a more natural/holistic approach, but it has to make sense. That's what research is for. And I think modern medicine and holistic methods can go hand in hand perfectly fine.

I also don't think it is fair to say that everyone here is buying into the latest holistic fad to cure themselves of acne. There is such a depth of information here that no doubt does help people conquer acne through diet and lifestyle. I knew nothing of nutrition until I started reading posts here and expanding my knowledge. I went from vegetarian to paleo - from living off grains to living off fat. This has helped my life, let alone my face, in so many ways and I know I'm not the only one!

 

Congrats on that! But Paleo is not the answer to everybody's acne, unfortunately. I wish it was that simple.

You also don't have to be able to qualify why everything works through science. I never get sick because I take oil of oregano which strengthens my immune system - when I asked my doctor about this he told me oil of oregano is useless. That is bullshit. The fact is that doctors are schooled and trained by the pharmaceutical companies and this can't be ignored. Do they want to do harm? Of course not! But dying from a doctors hands is the third leading cause of death in the United States. I can find a source for that if you like. The point I guess I'm trying to make is take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt and always do your own research! Be an advocate of your own health. I don't think anyone should be called a quack for seeking answers to their problems through researching natural methods. That is just ignorant. Ask yourself this - did anyone ever get sick from a lack of drugs? The body naturally wants to heal itself we just have to give it the tools to do so. Maybe we also shouldn't ignore the weight our own thoughts have on our reality, stress level and ultimately our body.

 

If you make a certain claim, yes, then you'd better have substantial evidence (i.e. proper science) to prove it. That's how it works and how it should work. Where do you think all the knowledge about food, supplements, diseases and your body comes from? Nutritionists? Naturopaths? I agree that people should research everything, but they should focus on real research, not books by some doctor who's selling his own supplements to battle his fictitious disease, or bloggers who are only parroting each other. Some information here should be taken with a whole bottle of salt, a grain won't be enough. Look at Paleo. What exactly did Paleolithic people even eat? How do you know? Because they found chicken bones next to human bones?

Also, adrenal fatigue is real. Someone doesn't just go straight into having Addinsons disease, it takes time to wear the adrenals down. How do you help the adrenals? Eat tons of fat, cut grains and sugar and do not let any stress into your life. Hmm sounds like the solution to most problems of the body, no? Real food is medicine and healing holisitcaly focuses on healing the whole body, not just treating the symptoms with medications.

 

It's not, it's a made up disease with symptoms almost as vague as those linked to candida overgrowth or leaky gut syndrome. Just look at the questionnaire by this Wilson dude. It's a laugh. Using a vague list of symptoms to identify a disease is nonsense. Lab tests can't provide any meaningful information, the disease does not exist, the symptoms are caused by something else. Where's the proof that eating tons of fats or cutting grains and sugar does help your adrenal glands? It may be beneficial for your overall health (though consuming tons of fat and completely cutting grains are not imo), but it has nothing to do with your adrenal glands. Living without any stress at all is not only impossible, it's bad for your health. Adrenal glands release hormones based on input from other areas of your body, especially the brain. If adrenal glands are malfunctioning, it's because they're being "told" to do so, not because they're "tired" of producing hormones. Your glands are fine, it's something else.

Bull shit. But I do wish that were true. Doctors have only a vague idea that healthy diet and lifestyle is good. No real comprehension of what it really does for you. Or what a bad diet does to you. Which is insane. I don't know how they can think for one minute that diet does not affect acne. There's no way it couldn't. What they know is drugs.

 

My doctor knows pretty well what's good and what's not. He'd rather send you home with a recipe for a healthy soup than a prescription for drugs. Maybe he's the exception to the rule, but your theory definitely doesn't apply to all doctors. Besides that, diet can't prevent or cure everything, drugs are sometimes needed. Healthy diet/lifestyle and drugs are not mutually exclusive. Sounds like both you and your mom have a lousy doctor who doesn't look further than his/her nose is long. On the other hand, your acne improved by 70% once you found out that oranges triggered the worst of it. Who would have thought? If anyone would create a topic, claiming that oranges cause cystic acne (broad-sweeping claim, without any further clarification), would you say s/he's right? It's an exception, I don't think anyone will advice that everybody should give up oranges. It's a good example of how difficult things are and why the diet-acne connection still isn't proven. Genes play a major role (we don't even know what most of them do for the skin), we can only control so much with diet and lifestyle.

If you really want to help, go where there is a problem.

 

It's exactly what she does. Tempering the hallelujah about this fake disease called adrenal fatigue. Please stay here, Michelle, your input is highly appreciated. By me, at least With that said, I don't believe the people here are hoaxers or marketers. I'm convinced that they're trying to help others with the best intentions at heart. But it won't hurt to question things, as that's what a discussion forum is for. I agree that there's hardly any criticism here, unless you question the holistic method or call a naturopath a quack. If all that's allowed are posts agreeing with everything, no matter how hollow, we'd better start a dating forum instead of a discussion forum. Besides that, people who post here also post in non-holistic forums, telling others to stop using their proven method and replace it by a healthy diet and lifestyle, and/or all-natural topicals. You could ask yourself what on earth they're doing there, but it's fine, makes people think. In my opinion, diet/lifestyle should always be the basis, I just don't think there's any reason at all why you couldn't post here. Ind1g0 said that you may be "paranoid" about unethical marketing, others are at least as paranoid about holistic methods. Hopefully we can all learn from each other and get rid of the hostile attitude towards people who do not agree with everything that's being said here.

 

To hard to reply to specifics on an ipad. I'll edit tomorrow, maybe. But 1 your doctor is definitely an exception. I didn't say there weren't doctors capable of thought and doing their reading besides what they were indoctrinated in med school.There just aren't many. You are lucky.

2) of course genetics play a role.?? They are obviously the difference between those of us who can eat whatever they want and have clear and those of us who break out. Genes have been identified. By scientists. Ive posted about them. Many times.

3) you know full well that in any thread where someone declares that one thing like oranges causes cystic acne I would and always do reply that that is individual and likely reaction due to a food intolerance. And that the thing to do is try avoiding them for a period to test to see if you notice an improvement. And oranges absolutely do cause me to break out in cysts. Yet I've never once said that every one should avoid them. Only that people should try avoiding them temporarily in a methodical elimination diet. If basic diet changes to a truly healthy diet isn't enough to clear them.

3) what little Michelle has said about adrenals is just arguing semantics. (Hallelujah??) The rest is crazy stuff about homeopathic marketers. And I would think you'd be insulted by her implication that moderators allowed this board to be filled with these marketers preying on the gullible.

And on that note, I'm offended as well as puzzled by your implication that Michelle has a refreshing scientific perspective otherwise lacking here in deja's thread. Thousands and thousands of scientific studies have been posted here.

Conventional medicine is so clearly failing us. The amount of pharmaceuticals Americans take is staggering, yet we are an incredibly sickly people riddled with lifestyle caused diseases. And we can control a great deal with diet and lifestyle.

To hard to reply to specifics on an ipad. I'll edit tomorrow, maybe. But 1 your doctor is definitely an exception. I didn't say there weren't doctors capable of thought and doing their reading besides what they were indoctrinated in med school.There just aren't many. You are lucky.

2) of course genetics play a role.?? They are obviously the difference between those of us who can eat whatever they want and have clear and those of us who break out. Genes have been identified. By scientists. Naive posted about them. Many times.

3) you know full well that in any thread where someone declares that one thing like oranges causes cystic acne I would and always do reply that that is an individual and likely reaction due to a food intolerance. And that the thing to do is try avoiding them for a period to test to see if you notice an improvement. And oranges absolutely do cause me to break out in cysts.

3) what little Michelle has said about adrenals is just arguing semantics. (Hallelujah??) The rest is crazy stuff about homeopathic marketers. And I would think you'd be insulted by her implication that moderators allowed this board to be filled with these marketers preying on the gullible.

And on that note, I'm offended as well as puzzled by your implication that Michelle has a refreshing scientific perspective otherwise lacking here in deja's thread. Thousands and thousands of scientific studies have been posted here.

Conventional medicine is so clearly failing us. The amount of pharmaceuticals Americans take is staggering, yet we are an incredibly sickly people riddled with lifestyle caused diseases. And we can control a great deal with diet and lifestyle.

 

Let me start by saying that I didn't mean to offend you in any way in deja's thread, it never even crossed my mind. I posted there for deja, not for others. You know I've thanked you more than once for the research you've posted. Not all research is definite proof though, many studies are preliminary and/or of bad quality, you can't draw conclusions from them.

OK,

1. At least we've cleared that up, not all doctors are evil. In fact, I don't know any doctor who is, they're doing what they believe is right, based on science, not anecdotes. I'd like to add that most scientists aren't evil either. I know a couple of them, they're in it because they're passionate about finding cures, not because they deliberately want to harm people. Maybe it's your system that's completely messed up, not so much the people working in it. They do what your system allows them to do. Like you said that pharmaceuticals can advertise their drugs. I assume you mean prescription drugs. That's just plain stupid and definitely not allowed here (nor would it make any sense, because it's your doc who should decide on what to prescribe, not a pharmaceutical company, their ties have been cut here a long time ago).

2. All genes playing a role in your skin have been identified? That's definitely news to me. Would you mind linking me to those posts?

3. Exactly, that's what I was saying. I wasn't questioning you, but I see how you could have misread it.

4. "little" is completely unnecessary and condescending, exactly what I was saying about the high horse/hostile attitude that rules this forum and that I'm pretty much fed up with. I'm not offended at all, I see where she comes from and I appreciate her concerns for people's health. Just like I appreciate everybody else's input, whether or not I agree with it.

I wouldn't say that conventional medicine is failing you, people are failing themselves, that's where it always starts. That doesn't mean that even the most health-conscious people will never have to revert to conventional medicine.

Michelle- I respectfully say, that I think you've made your point very clear, that your paranoia is rooted in "unethical marketing." I now see that you are posting out of concern for our health, and that is very kind of you. For that reason, I strongly suggest you visit CVS, Walgreens, Stop & Shop, (etc.), and every hospital that you know of. Those mentioned are the most appropriate places to warn our fellow brothers and sisters about unethical marketing!!! The time is running out and the consequences are dire!!!

 

Again you are writing inappropriate and scathing remarks. Instead of trying to logically refute my points, you resort to insulting in an attempt to discredit me. I hope I'm wrong, but with all the insults thrown at me lately I can't count this out.

Michelle- I respectfully say, that I think you've made your point very clear, that your paranoia is rooted in "unethical marketing." I now see that you are posting out of concern for our health, and that is very kind of you. For that reason, I strongly suggest you visit CVS, Walgreens, Stop & Shop, (etc.), and every hospital that you know of. Those mentioned are the most appropriate places to warn our fellow brothers and sisters about unethical marketing!!! The time is running out and the consequences are dire!!!

 

Well said. But don't forget the hospitals. Oh, and the pharmaceutical ads on tv.

 

For someone who was so concerned about the moderators' feelings being hurt, you don't take into consideration about your opponent's and then add a disparaging comment of your own. How are you being fair and compassionate by tolerating and advocating hate towards someone who doesn't agree with you and/or your friends' views?

Marketers don't spread information, they parade misinformation and confusion. Because if they're selling something, it's "easy" and stops people having to think.

The Big Pharma industry is about 5000000000 times bigger than the lady across the road selling goats cheese, so while it's possible she's on these forums causing chaos and spreading paleo propaganda, the chances are very low and the payoff would be zero. Always consider the source.

Oh, yeah. My mother saw dozens of doctors in her hospital stays after her stroke. Plus her primary care physician who's a real nice lady., but that's the only recommendation I can give her. The hospital was part of the mayo clinic, a supposedly well respected institution. But it, like the rest of our health care industry, and really most other things in this country, is not what it used to be. And not what it should be.

Any way, other than those involved in treating her acute condition, I.e. the stroke and immediate aftermath, they were all useless. In fact, via arguments, I got her meds changed 2 or three times. Apparently they weren' that married to whatever drugs they prescribed. It's just this thing they do.

And just look at what they consider adequate nutrition for people recovering from an illness. Syrup drenched white flour pancakes, biscuits and gravy (white flour and fryer grease poured over white flour and hydrogenated trans fat) nutritionally void cream of wheat where considered acceptable breakfast options along with tiny portions of canned syrupy fruit and sugary artificially flavored non fat and probiotic free yogurt. Do you really think these people comprehend the importance of nutrition?

Michelle- I respectfully say, that I think you've made your point very clear, that your paranoia is rooted in "unethical marketing." I now see that you are posting out of concern for our health, and that is very kind of you. For that reason, I strongly suggest you visit CVS, Walgreens, Stop & Shop, (etc.), and every hospital that you know of. Those mentioned are the most appropriate places to warn our fellow brothers and sisters about unethical marketing!!! The time is running out and the consequences are dire!!!

 

Again you are writing inappropriate and scathing remarks. Instead of trying to logically refute my points, you resort to insulting in an attempt to discredit me. I hope I'm wrong, but with all the insults thrown at me lately I can't count this out.

Michelle- I respectfully say, that I think you've made your point very clear, that your paranoia is rooted in "unethical marketing." I now see that you are posting out of concern for our health, and that is very kind of you. For that reason, I strongly suggest you visit CVS, Walgreens, Stop & Shop, (etc.), and every hospital that you know of. Those mentioned are the most appropriate places to warn our fellow brothers and sisters about unethical marketing!!! The time is running out and the consequences are dire!!!

 

Well said. But don't forget the hospitals. Oh, and the pharmaceutical ads on tv.

 

For someone who was so concerned about the moderators' feelings being hurt, you don't take into consideration about your opponent's and then add a disparaging comment of your own. How are you being fair and compassionate by tolerating and advocating hate towards someone who doesn't agree with you and/or your friends' views?

 

I kindly urge you to take your own advice. The nutrition and holistic health forum is one of the most respectful and positive places on this site. There are so many ideas that pop up, and there are also a lot of disagreements over what might work and what does not. Usually, these disagreements are well-tolerated and both sides are supported, then a conclusion is reached OR the parties involved decide that what might work for one, might not work for another. That's just how healing acne works.

I think the reason you are being met with such opposition is because it appears that you are marching into this area of the site, when nutrition and holistic health is clearly not your forte, and parading your very strong anti-holistic ideas in a way that leaves absolutely NO room for debate or accommodation. I don't think you are here at all to discuss or learn, but to preach and oppose, no? That is the difference I am noticing between your posts, and the opposing posts of others in the past. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't want to assume, but perhaps thats why you feel you're not being met with fairness or compassion.

Most of us have really done boatloads of research on this topic and have had lots of personal experience. We are very well educated on the "science" of nutrition, if you will. So really, to come in here and blasphemy it, supporting the very industry most of us have been failed by or despise for ITS lack of compassion, is not a good idea unless you expected to be met by a bunch of ignorant caveman waving wands and herbal capsules at you...

It is completely ok to state your ideas on this site, that's what this site is here for: different opinions. And I hope you continue to do so because you seem very knowledgable, in your own areas. It's not okay, though, to choose one area of the site and go searching for modern medical information that disputes mostly every point. It doesn't make sense, and some of its also plainly incorrect and only supported by one area of research: mainstream (mostly pharma funded) Western medicine.

I am sorry and I apologize on behalf of myself or anyone else that might have 'hurt' you or disrespected you, but really I don't think you're coming from a position of compassion and care for our health at all. I think you're coming from a point of defending your ego. I just think if you reconsider the "energy" from which you are coming from, (or the motive, to use a less airy word), when you post, the energy which you will be receive will be different.

Michelle started by pointing out that adrenal fatigue is nonsense, based on the science that's available. All you believers said that the disease is real, Mayo clinic sucks, you throw in a load of BS/conspiracy theories/broad-sweeping generalizations, then ask her what she's doing here (basically telling her to get the hell out of here and go bark up another tree). Then she should go away, because there are no marketers here (hey, let me tell you something: there's no one from big pharma or big ag here either, yet I keep reading bad things about them). You jump on her like a hungry pack of wolves. Yes, this is definitely one of the most respectful and positive forums on here...

It doesn't matter what the source of the research is, people can use research from their own sources if they like, to prove "mainstream" research wrong. Yet they've made zero effort to do so. Indeed, then you can't have a discussion. If they don't have such studies, that's ok. But using ad hominem nonsense to hide it is kind of pathetic. People don't have to be all into holistic methods to have the right to post here, I hope that's clear. fwiw: most studies you'll find here are performed by the same people you so despise, it's kind of selective indignation to only accept studies that are pro-holistic and dismiss everything else, isn't it?

It's obvious that discussions with people who do not agree with this holistic, organic approach are completely impossible here, this very topic is a good example. And it's not the first time this happens. If people can't make their point without insulting or belittling others, then just don't bother posting.

I kindly urge you to take your own advice. The nutrition and holistic health forum is one of the most respectful and positive places on this site. There are so many ideas that pop up, and there are also a lot of disagreements over what might work and what does not. Usually, these disagreements are well-tolerated and both sides are supported, then a conclusion is reached OR the parties involved decide that what might work for one, might not work for another. That's just how healing acne works.

 

Ideas like "stay away from your doctor" and "doctors don't know anything", both of which are potentially dangerous and are rarely opposed. Other ideas that aren't opposed or even questioned are promotion of vague and nonsense diseases (adrenal fatigue, leaky gut and estrogen dominance) that people self-diagnose and treat with dubious supplements and lifestyle remedies, let alone most of the other "cures" and "miracle treatments". It's ironic the people in these forums question and criticize "Big Pharma" and medical professionals, yet fail to do the same (and as often and/or consistently) to everybody's posts here. It's one thing to bring up a study you or somebody else on the forums may find interesting and emphasize it's preliminary at best, but it's another to take the preliminary study, run with it and claim it'll specifically work for acne, which has happened with spearmint tea, green tea, saw palmetto and all the other "natural anti-androgens". Same thing with the "natural estrogens" and all the "dangerous fillers" in pills. Test tube and mice studies are nearly meaningless in humans -- those kinds of studies should be taken only that more investigation is needed, not test tube studies and mice = humans. In the rare instance a human study is linked, no one ever analyses the quality of study or point out that it's evidence for another disease (and not acne), which both would be diseases of different pathology. Yet this "science" is thrown around as if it were irrefutable facts.

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There's also a quite a bit of scaremongering on these forums about "chemicals", and the demonization of foods like grain, dairy and the vague "processed foods". Topical BP has been criticized as a dangerous "chemical" (including these forums), supposedly causing wrinkles and cancer. Even you have implied that "chemicals" were dangerous -- specifically with BP.

Yes, it definitely can. BP is a harsh chemical. There is a reason why there are recommended doses. 10% is not really needed, if you read the explanation on this site by Dan, you will see that 2.5% benzoyl peroxide can be just as effective and it is much more gentle. When you strip the natural protective layer off of your already sensitive skin by applying 10% BP multiple times a day, yes, you will disturb the PH level, moisture balance, ceramides, etc. Not good. What else are you doing for your skin? What is your cleanser and moisturizer like, if you are using them?

 

Chemicals "[are] a form of matter that has constant chemical composition and characteristic properties". Chemicals are everywhere and we are filled with them -- our bodies are them. Again it's ironic when people recommend supplements (especially the herbal kind) and/or an "anti-stress, anti-inflammatory" diet nowhere is there any concern about the chemicals in them and "chemical" isn't bolded to portray they are dangerous.

Exactly how can people with acne heal when there's such contradictory information being presented and the promotion of irrational fears to "chemicals" and synthetic substances?

I think the reason you are being met with such opposition is because it appears that you are marching into this area of the site, when nutrition and holistic health is clearly not your forte, and parading your very strong anti-holistic ideas in a way that leaves absolutely NO room for debate or accommodation. I don't think you are here at all to discuss or learn, but to preach and oppose, no? That is the difference I am noticing between your posts, and the opposing posts of others in the past. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't want to assume, but perhaps thats why you feel you're not being met with fairness or compassion.

 

What if I told you that I poured hundreds of hours into researching holistic health? But I suppose you or others would discount that as it doesn't agree with your/others' views.

"Absolutely NO room for debate"? There is room for debate as evidenced by you still debating me. AKL and I have written several points in a logical and concise manner, especially how the basis of "adrenal fatigue" is inherently contradictory, and you have yet to logically refute them. Maybe you write that because you can't logically refute it?

People here preach and oppose mainstream medicine, and not just dermatologists. There's a palpable hatred to every facet of mainstream medicine in this forum. Just because a dermatologist or other doctors didn't give you/another person the answers/treatments you/that person wanted or needed, doesn't make it right to tell most if not everyone that people should stay away from them. It's irrational and frankly irresponsible to claim one's less than ideal personal experience with doctors and claim that it would happen with everyone. If the forums were really being fair, it would advise others to go to doctors before trying out the "holistic route", and even give others tips of what questions to ask the doctor or how to find a good one. Of course not all users and guests come here because mainstream medicine "failed them"; sometimes they're just curious and maybe they can't go to doctors at the very moment so they might as well "try something". Most of the information here is just guessing and very few people here admit that it is, which is dangerous and misleading.

I love to learn, and that's one of the reasons I'm here. But the way you worded your question is strongly implying that I'm close-minded and one-sided. Yes, I am against many things, including people promoting fake diseases especially if they know it's a bunch of lies.

Most of us have really done boatloads of research on this topic and have had lots of personal experience. We are very well educated on the "science" of nutrition, if you will. So really, to come in here and blasphemy it, supporting the very industry most of us have been failed by or despise for ITS lack of compassion, is not a good idea unless you expected to be met by a bunch of ignorant caveman waving wands and herbal capsules at you...

It is completely ok to state your ideas on this site, that's what this site is here for: different opinions. And I hope you continue to do so because you seem very knowledgable, in your own areas. It's not okay, though, to choose one area of the site and go searching for modern medical information that disputes mostly every point. It doesn't make sense, and some of its also plainly incorrect and only supported by one area of research: mainstream (mostly pharma funded) Western medicine.

 

Again I must write there's very little caution on these forums. Personal experience and perceptions can be fooled very easily. Yes, people have brought this up, but pretty much with Accutane and that "people may want to believe in the success stories so much they may fall into a placebo effect" -- yet this point is almost never brought up with the "holistic treatments".

You wrote "blasphemy", which sticks out at me. Perhaps you meant "oppose", but it does highlight (albeit inadvertently) the cult-like atmosphere that pervades these forums. It appears only AKL and I have brought up the fraud potential in "holistic health". Yes, people do give one another ideas, but there has to be a point when someone calls out on a bad and potentially dangerous idea. Is there sometimes a lack of compassion in mainstream medicine? Yes there can be; I won't deny that. However it isn't fair to generalize that all of mainstream medicine has no compassion and this forum therefore always has compassion (with the exception of opponents).

Another irony in the holistic forums is that it boasts its the most scientific, yet it fails to stick to the basic (scrutinizing) scientific principles. Are these forums scientific or scientific? A huge part of being educated on the science of nutrition or any science for that matter is recognizing what makes a good quality study, when to criticize and knowing much about human physiology.

I am sorry and I apologize on behalf of myself or anyone else that might have 'hurt' you or disrespected you, but really I don't think you're coming from a position of compassion and care for our health at all. I think you're coming from a point of defending your ego. I just think if you reconsider the "energy" from which you are coming from, (or the motive, to use a less airy word), when you post, the energy which you will be receive will be different.

 

Now instead of downright trying to insult me, you are writing a passive-aggressive remark. You could've reworded it to something more neutral like "maybe the reason some people have been calling you names is because of your tone", but writing "I think" before the strong phrases "defending your ego" and "compassion and care for our health at all" is a thinly-veiled insult and accusation. Once again I can't discount this because it's clear you've taken care in writing the above paragraphs yet you have conveniently slacked off at those phrases, only to resume neutral wording at the end.

If the acne is severe than one should immediately visit the dermatologist asap to get it under control. There is no point lying around depressed and end up getting scarred. Holistic method works best for mild/moderate acne and usually takes some time to work. Also not all types of acne works with holistic methods specially if the acne is genetic/hormonal. Just my 2 cents.

If the acne is severe than one should immediately visit the dermatologist asap to get it under control. There is no point lying around depressed and end up getting scarred. Holistic method works best for mild/moderate acne and usually takes some time to work. Also not all types of acne works with holistic methods specially if the acne is genetic/hormonal. Just my 2 cents.

 

My acne was severe and I went to many dermatologists and took many drugs including 2 courses of accutane with no noticeable results. Diet and nutrients, on the other hand, cleared me very quickly, once I finally realized they were wrong when they told me diet had nothing to do with it as well as just how bad the average diet has become.

Also, except in the case of food intolerances and pores clogged by one topicals and pollutants, acne is always hormone related and always genetic.

Michelle started by pointing out that adrenal fatigue is nonsense, based on the science that's available. All you believers said that the disease is real, Mayo clinic sucks, you throw in a load of BS/conspiracy theories/broad-sweeping generalizations, then ask her what she's doing here (basically telling her to get the hell out of here and go bark up another tree). Then she should go away, because there are no marketers here (hey, let me tell you something: there's no one from big pharma or big ag here either, yet I keep reading bad things about them). You jump on her like a hungry pack of wolves. Yes, this is definitely one of the most respectful and positive forums on here...

It doesn't matter what the source of the research is, people can use research from their own sources if they like, to prove "mainstream" research wrong. Yet they've made zero effort to do so. Indeed, then you can't have a discussion. If they don't have such studies, that's ok. But using ad hominem nonsense to hide it is kind of pathetic. People don't have to be all into holistic methods to have the right to post here, I hope that's clear. fwiw: most studies you'll find here are performed by the same people you so despise, it's kind of selective indignation to only accept studies that are pro-holistic and dismiss everything else, isn't it?

It's obvious that discussions with people who do not agree with this holistic, organic approach are completely impossible here, this very topic is a good example. And it's not the first time this happens. If people can't make their point without insulting or belittling others, then just don't bother posting.

 

She wasn't told to go away. It was suggested that she rant about marketers preying on the gullible somewhere where it might actually be occurring.

Also, I don't know or care whether adrenal exhaustion exists, but adrenal health is very important to hormones. And this thread was not about any crazy homeopathic remedies, it was about habits like sleep,and nutrients needed for adrenal health and those they need to produce the hormones.

Or are we to believe that the adrenals can do all its jobs and produce all the hormones we need without the nutrients it uses to produce them.

No, you're right. She wasn't literally told "Go away!". But unless people are dyslectic or completely stupid, it's clear what the message was. And that message wasn't exactly a welcoming one. Nonsense and attacks. Given, in a nice package (sometimes), but the content smelled pretty bad. Anything to prove her wrong? No, of course not, why would anyone? Much easier to avoid the on-topic points she's made and humiliate her instead. I'm not going to summarize the conversation here, but I'm pretty sure that most people will be able to see how it developed and why (including the homeopathy).

Of course adrenal health is important. Health in general is, your adrenals couldn't function on their own. Which is why I always tell people to look at their diet first. With that said, diet is often not enough to get rid of acne (or other diseases), as I've experienced with several people, so I don't dismiss conventional medicine like some hardcore holistic people do. I do care whether or not adrenal fatigue exists, as people might believe that nonsense and buy that Wilson's book and supplements in an attempt to get rid of the vague symptoms, while they have other issues they should focus on.