Hi. Just wondering what type of products people have been using post fraxel. I was given-

cleanser- main ingredient is purified water

skin protectent- emulsifying wax

cosmelan 2- skin bleach

green tea antioxidant w/ caffeine- serum

My list states to avoid retinol or glycolic acid till treatment is completed in full. Is this the common after fraxel regimen? Thanks~

 

My list also says to avoid retinol and glycolic acid. No exfoliation products at all should be used even though it's tempting when your face feels like it's flaking off...;) I experimented after my first few treatments and decided that less is more post Fraxel. I use a mix of jojoba and caster oil to cleanse and then apply a mixture of emu oil and copper peptides. I also use Mario Badescu Silver Powder to spot treat any breakouts. (it's basically just zinc powder). Seems to be working well so far.

ANNIE FROM MIAMI or anyone else that knows the answer:

What exactly is the importance of the density level? Do you want to treat worse scars at a higher density level?

I just had my 2nd fraxel treatment. The settings were the same as before. The doctor was really pleased with the 1 month result. He stated I was responding very well to the treatment. Hopefully I will get a good end result. Now it's just the down time.

Blaster

You understand Fraxel very well, so I am probably wrong, but I think your math is wrong or at least misleading.

My understanding is that Energy is expressed in mjs per MTZ. Density in your case would be the 125mtz/cm2 times # passes. So, your math multiplying energy setting by density gives the total energy per cm2. To get total energy applied to full face you need to multiply by the number of cm2s on your face. Maybe this is what you were getting at, but I think many patients are being told the total energy applied to face, not to cm2. I did not want anyone to be confused about this.

In any event, you are taing some strong medicine.

Best wishes

PS: Someone asked about energy vs coverage. The deeper the scars, the more energy is needed to cause a thermal injury at that depth.

Hi guys,

Just finished my fourth fraxel. 4th treatment was -

25mJ x 6 passes x 125 mhz = 18750

and

30mj x 8 passes x 125 mhz = 30000

Total energy = 48750 = 4.9kJ (approx) total energy to face

 

I'm still trying to figure something out. In reverse, using your formula, I was wondering what my mJ would be if:

Total energy = just over 4kJ

4 passes X 250mhz

What would the energy output in mJ be, then??

4kJ or 40000 = 4 passes x 250mhz x

would it be: 40000 divided by 1000 = Z, therefore 40mJ=Z ???

I don't know. I really highly doubt my mJ was 40, because that sounds waaaay too high. Especially since I didn't get the extreme reactions a lot of ya'll get post treatmtent.

What if all of my face was 250mhz with the exception of my forehead which was 125mhz? Would that change it? I only remember her saying that my total energy output (or whatever you call it) was just over 4kJ.

-----------------------------

I think I've got it......

it was 4x4 passes so

40,000 divided by 250 = 160

160 divided by 4x4 = 10

So 10mJ??

Yeah, I'd be willing to bet it's more like 10mJ, especially since my post treatment reaction wasn't near as bad as many describe theirs.

Again, I think the confusion relates to total energy per cm2 vs total face. Total energy = energy intensity per mtz x density (or #) of mtz per cm2 x cm2 on face.

Susan, I think doc gave you total energy for face, while blaster's value is for cm2. I am guessing he received 20 times the total energy that you did. His energy per cm2 was more than twice mine and my total energy was 25% higher than any patient they had previously treated because I pushed them. My Doc/nurse is very conservative compared to Blaster's and my scars are considered mild.

Fraxel only came out in 2004. It's impossible that this Dr was using it six years ago! The first tester in San Diego only had it since 2003. therefore his comment is completely based on other treatments in his practice and not fraxel at all.

There is some infor on the reliant site that results can last 10 years, but this based on wrinkling, not scars. Pretty much all the info out there on fraxel is geared towards wrinkles and sun damage. Only in the last year has there been published clinical data on treating scars. And it's all been very positive.

Now they just have to come down on that ridiculous price. I'm not trading my scars for my derm's new boat.

 

heh heh, as long as they relax their skilled little hands on that pretty boat and keep giving me these good results, it's ALL ABOARD for me!!! 😉

No word yet from the Spa/Doctor. I'll give them until next week.

Annie I have been following your progress through the board and can't tell you how much I appreciate your "Photo-Log". When was your last Fraxel done, how many more will you get and do you have any updated photos you would share? Any new comments on your progress? I have just finished my 2nd and you are helping me see where this might go for me as I continue to get treatments. Thank You!

 

Thanks for the thanks Lexus. The last one I did was in May and I have two more to go. I will most likely do #4 in August. After reading this thread I'm going to ask about the benefits of going higher for my skin. What I gather is Higher levels work best for acne scars and lower levels for skin discoloration?? That's the extent of my gathering knowledge. :shy: I'll take some photos and post them soon. Sometimes I get distracted by shiny objects and totally forget about the things I'm supposed to be doing.

Basically I'm happy. I never thought my skin could change. Not that it's a HUGE difference, but it is noticeable. I'm getting smoother skin and there are a few less scars. If I didn't see it with my own two eyes, I'd stay a skeptic. The girls that gives me facials noticed immediately and that was the BIGGEST compliment so far. I hadn't been to her in 8 months or so and she said "What did you have done? I know you've done something, what is IT???" hahaha I'm still riding high on that compliment. She doesn't dish them out either instead she usually tells me all the problems I have with my skin and then trys to sell me more services and products. She didn't push anything that time. In fact she wanted to know more about it and how she could get involved with Fraxel.

I've noticed a slight tightening which is what I really wanted too. My makeup slides on. Prior to Fraxel, my skin looked and felt like sandpaper. Something simple like putting makeup on wasn't easy. I was blotchy with rough patches and red areas. I have some rosacea and it seems to have helped me out with that. In fact that could have been the reason for the sandpaper look. I don't know. I do know that everytime I get one done, about a month later I see even more results. I think I would like to do it forever. I'd rather continue to save my money and do these, than anything else right now. I see results and that's all that matters. I had realistic expectaions and so far, they have been met. I look forward to the next two treatments.

And you know what? My upper lip is a little puffierthese days. I think I might even send an email to Reliant and ask their opinion. If Fraxel builds collagen under your thick skin, couldn't it produce collagen under your thin skin lips??? I had a huge reaction this time. But I'm starting to imagine that I got some collagen stimulated there too!! I think my upper lip was thinner before. Now if in addition to improving my scars, texture and tone - Fraxel could plump my upper lip with a little more collagen - I will refer to it as my "HOLY GRAIL" from now on. Without a doubt... The girls on the other lipboard will love me..heeheehee :dance: :-*

my feeling is that to get to step 5 (where you get results) you have to go through 1, 2, 3 & 4.

for me there's a process involved in all this stuff and it seems like a lot of people on here want someone to say: this will work for you and it will the first and only thing you ever have to do. i understand this esp b/c of the money issue, but it's just not the way it works.

obviously, all these postings and pics help a lot, but you just never know for sure what will work for you until you try.

hats off to annie for her tireless posting of comments and photos. you totally rule and i'm sure i speak for everyone who has read this thread who hasnt said so yet.

 

I agree with your opinion and advice ThereisLight. IMO- Step 1 is actually reading the information on this site - so hats off to all of us!! I hope we all find what works for us - because its true what works for me, may not be the thing for someone else and vice versa. And even if you don't find that *special procedure* right away - keep asking and keep looking. In the mean time - everyone should love yourself AS IS and screw anyone else who says otherwise. 😀

ANNIE FROM MIAMI or anyone else that knows the answer:

What exactly is the importance of the density level? Do you want to treat worse scars at a higher density level?

 

Everyone reacts differently and the only one who would know would be the Doctor treating you. There are far more intelligent and Density Savvy posters here that probably know the answer to that. Truly I almost failed math in highschool, so when I see all these numbers flying through this thread I swear I have flashbacks from my Algebra class and just start to shut down. I have no idea about density and mj, MJ or ABC's. My brain does not compute :wall: :wacko:

Annie I just have to say this" distraction by shiney things" you speak of has been termed "being a crow" by my sisters as we all tend to love pretty jewlery, so I get it! Back to the subject, if you know any of your settings I would love to know, also what settings you plan on for the remainder of your treatments. Thanks!

After and in between fraxel treatments, is it ok to go back to Salicylic Acid and Benzoyl Peroxide?

I believe the best time to evaluate and to notice improvement is after 4 weeks from treatment. Especially at aggressive treatment levels, this is when you see the skin really smoothen out and glow. The thing with fraxel is that real improvement is only noticable after the 4th or 5th treatment. I am still considering my options but I am considering doing a 6th treatment only on my cheeks. Remember with fraxel - things will look worse before they look better but hang in there and you will see results! Go for as high settings as you believe you can tolerate and if your treating acne scars and don't have hyper-pigmentation issues then aim for 25-30mj for treatment. Anything less is a waste of money and effort.

Understand that if you are younger you body has a better ability to generate collagen compared to someone who is 40+. Fraxel works best on people 30 and below because of this factor.

Blaster

HEY anyone here from MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA?!

I read almost this whole thread over a week ago (took forever ) and remember a couple of people who got treated at Dr. Skin in Armadale...

I'm booked in for a treatment at the end of the month...

Are the poeple who've been treated there happy with their results so far??

If there's anyone else from Melbourne who's had the treatment somewhere else, how were the results and how much were you charged??

Thanks so much to anyone who replies!!

xxoo Germaine.

After and in between fraxel treatments, is it ok to go back to Salicylic Acid and Benzoyl Peroxide?

 

Yes it is. My doctor told me to wait at least 5 days. Then you will be good. That's what I do.

Blaster

I look forward to your posts because I think they are valuable. There are a few others like Annie and Coolbreeze (and others who are not top of mind, so please don't be offended) where I feel the same way.

I am 55 and agree that collagen is harder to stimulate as you get older, especially because I have always been a beach guy so I have sun damage. Conversely, I think it is a great way to rejuvenate and tighten skin. My scars started bothering me a few years ago as the the loss of elasticity and collagen made them look worse. So, even if it is harder to stimulate, there is more room for improvement as you age, making Fraxel a good tool for us old guys.

I tend to agree with your comments about settings and assessmnet time frames, but am not 100% sure. Are these comments based on your experience to date, comments form your Docs, or clinical literature? I 've had 3 and see much improvement in texture and some tightening, but only modest improvement in scars, so I am tring to decide whether to go for much higher settings on #4 (my final) and whether to go for more. One idea I have been toying with, if I can get a good package price, is to come in 2 times a year the next couple years and to try needling on my 5 or so deeper scars in between.

Good luck

Germaine Ive bumped up the Melbourne\ Dr Skin\Fraxel message board. There are a few of us who go there on these boards.

I think they are pretty good. Dr Bosnich is very personable and seems to know his stuff. They treat very aggressively. My treatments have all been between 25 and 35 which was unheard of in the early days of fraxel. Ive had 3 so far, my last being 7 days ago. Im stopping for a while to see what the improvement will be, but at the moment Im pretty happy with the results. skin is very smooth and scars not so noticeable.

I dont know who else is doing fraxel, but it may be worth calling Dr Greg Goodmens rooms as 2 months ago they told me they werent taking it on and I called them the other for another reason and whilst on call waiting it was being promoted.

They must be hearing good things about it otherwise I dont think they would have gone with it.

Hi Billyboy,

My comments are mainly based on literature findings, my own experience and from the Doc's observations and those from people on this board. After a while you will notice everyone is basically saying the same thing. The Doc did tell me for older people he generally treats around 8 sessions. We know from literature and from patients that high settings are required for acne scar treatment so obviously if you are over 40 and are treating acne scars you would need more treatments to stimulate collagen and it will take longer for you to see results. I would imagine you would see results after 8 or more treatments at high energy levels.

I'm quite surprised at people who are being treated below 20mj and then complain that they are not seeing results. Fraxel is a cumulative procedure and was not meant for acne scarring. It is only on aggressive treatment that it can stimulate the collagen at a depth to bring about a noticable change in scarring. Obviously the deeper you go, the greater the stimulation and hence more noticable results.

Unless you are very young it would not make sense to go for fraxel to treat acne scars if you are going to stay below 20mj. You will likely end up disappointed with the results, coz I think even with 6 treatments below 20mj you would have to settle with less than 20% improvement. Sure you texture and contrast on your skin would improve but if your looking for real scar improvement you won't see that unless you really go aggressive.

Bottomline - for newbies going in for fraxel - if you going in to improve scarring then you have to be prepared for the long-haul. That means 5-8 treatments with aggressive settings of more than 20mj. Anything less will leave you disappointed or rather does not justify the cost and down-time.

After Fraxel treatment -

I was recommended my different doctors to take a multi-vitamin, get sufficient doses of vitamin C (to build collagen) and fish oil (to help with inflammation). Also the Murad Youth Builder Collagen Supplement was recommended.

Blaster.

Blaster

I look forward to your posts because I think they are valuable. There are a few others like Annie and Coolbreeze (and others who are not top of mind, so please don't be offended) where I feel the same way.

 

I tend to agree with your comments about settings and assessmnet time frames, but am not 100% sure. Are these comments based on your experience to date, comments form your Docs, or clinical literature? I 've had 3 and see much improvement in texture and some tightening, but only modest improvement in scars, so I am tring to decide whether to go for much higher settings on #4 (my final) and whether to go for more. One idea I have been toying with, if I can get a good package price, is to come in 2 times a year the next couple years and to try needling on my 5 or so deeper scars in between.

 

Good luck

 

Hey jagger, thanks so much for your reply!

That's great that they treat it aggressively, if you're payng $1000+ for every treatment you'd want them to be workin it!

Pff, Greg Goodman is such an asshole, I refuse to go back there. I spent thousands on 5 smoothbeam treatments a couple of years back which did NOTHING. Once when I had a follow-up appoinment he said to me "Gee, you certainly still have a face full of ackers don't you?" This was an insecure 19 year old girl he was talking to! Bloody dermos... most of them have no idea whatsoever.

Hey best of luck with your treatments, great to hear you're happy with everything so far!

Thanks again!

I still believe Fraxel is the best treatment option for acne scars. If you are in Australia the partially covered by medicare which means for 5 treatments you only need to pay $1500.

Blaster.

 

I'm from the US. I don't think I could travel to Australia.

Is fraxel covered by medicare in Canada? I'm 7 hours from Montreal. It'd be worth it to save $4000-$5000.

Hey jagger, thanks so much for your reply! 🙂

That's great that they treat it aggressively, if you're payng $1000+ for every treatment you'd want them to be workin it!

Pff, Greg Goodman is such an asshole, I refuse to go back there. I spent thousands on 5 smoothbeam treatments a couple of years back which did NOTHING. Once when I had a follow-up appoinment he said to me "Gee, you certainly still have a face full of ackers don't you?" This was an insecure 19 year old girl he was talking to! Bloody dermos... most of them have no idea whatsoever. Hey best of luck with your treatments, great to hear you're happy with everything so far! 🙂

Thanks again!

 

Re: "Gee, you certainly still have a face full of ackers don't you?" This was an insecure 19 year old girl he was talking to! Bloody dermos... most of them have no idea whatsoever..."

I just had to make a reply to this...that's so true that "most of them have no idea whatsoever."

i recall once when i was checking out derma's for the 1st here in Montreal, Canada... Iwent to this one upstart doc who, 1st didn't even have the curtesy to wear gloves (and his fingers were all cracked from smoking)...and then he goes "wow you've got acne bad!"

I was like "duh, state the obvious much? I already know that and don't need a reminder, when i've coem to you for help on the excat thing"...

Needless to say I never returned to him again! :snooty: 😡

Hey jagger, thanks so much for your reply! 🙂

That's great that they treat it aggressively, if you're payng $1000+ for every treatment you'd want them to be workin it!

Pff, Greg Goodman is such an asshole, I refuse to go back there. I spent thousands on 5 smoothbeam treatments a couple of years back which did NOTHING. Once when I had a follow-up appoinment he said to me "Gee, you certainly still have a face full of ackers don't you?" This was an insecure 19 year old girl he was talking to! Bloody dermos... most of them have no idea whatsoever.

Hey best of luck with your treatments, great to hear you're happy with everything so far! 🙂

Thanks again!

 

Hi

I had smoothbeam at Greg Goodmans too and it was a total waste of time and money. I opted to be one of the first to try it and got a couple of treatments for free and then paid for 3. Anyways didnt make a difference. Apart from leaving me pigmented which ended up costing me more as I needed loads of peels to remove it.

Fraxel in comparison has left me fairly pink but so far havent seen any discolouration. Thankgod as thats what I was fearing the most.

Question for those that are undergoing fraxel treatments at high settings over 20.

1. Have you experienced bulk heating especially in small areas such as the nose or chin? The adverse negative impact would be a hypertrophic scar because the small area vs the potential for repeated passes in the same area coupled with a short time interval. I suspect this could happen if the surgeon or operator of the laser is not very experienced in other areas of the face or neck or whatever. Can you ask your doctor about this and how they mitigate it? - I guess the use of the small tip would be one but I assume some doctors probably don't have it or have not budgetd for it.

2. This question pertains to hair follicles. Does this laser in any way harm the hair follicles?

Thanks

I had the bulk heating happen on my nose with a diode laser. it left me hypopigmented. the tech turned the machine all the way up since it was less sensitive there. and foolishly overlapped.

I asked the hair follicle question months ago. It doesn't seem to affect them. Seems it would from the MTZ's cross-section on the reliant site. But the dermal papilla from which the hair generates is too deep and unless the capillaries that feed it become compromised it can usually regenerate.

Thanks for your input and experience. I did search for the follicle research item, but did not find it. I'll search again using your sn as a keyword.

The follicle question came about because I was researching different lasers and how they impact the hair follicle. Some experts agree with one another that lasers damage the hair follicles that produce the stem cells for needed for skin renewal. This would be bad if laser patients want to get incremental more improvement after the laser procedure with other procedures via c or copper, etc. They don't classify which lasers would cause damage so an assumption Fraxel doesn't, but I don't know.

I had the bulk heating happen on my nose with a diode laser. it left me hypopigmented. the tech turned the machine all the way up since it was less sensitive there. and foolishly overlapped.

 

I asked the hair follicle question months ago. It doesn't seem to affect them. Seems it would from the MTZ's cross-section on the reliant site. But the dermal papilla from which the hair generates is too deep and unless the capillaries that feed it become compromised it can usually regenerate.

 

This has been at the back of my mind actually. I had laser hair removal on my face so im worried about not having the stem cells for healing. although i still have sparse hairs everywhere.

im not sure how critical the hair cells is to healing. the reliant site does say somewhere that stem cells in the hair follicles provide excellent sources for rapid re-epithlialization.

i think the real way laser hair removal works is by frying the tiny capilaries that feed the dermal papilla. it's really only by cutting off the blood supply that u keep them from growing back.

maybe someone can ask their derm. if anyone is going to the skin and laser center in NYC, they'd probably know best. they have every type of laser there is.

OK. I don't have the discipline to read all 75 pages of this thread. Can someone briefly sum it up for me? As in, is this procedure ON THE WHOLE the best method out there for shallow scarring?

In a word: YES

In summary:

Doctors and the fraxel/reliant-tech sites claim results to be 50+. Expect 30% improvement, with greatest benefits to texture and tone. You must get 5-6 treatments for this improvement. Treatment is expensive anywhere from $3000-$6000 dollars for a package. Down time ranges from a weekend to two weeks depending on the strength of the laser setting: deeper scars require higher energy levels. Expect redness and flaking during this time. It's best to wait 1 month in between each treatment. The consensus is that although it's expensive there is minor to moderate improvement. Don't expect to come away with perfect skin and no scars and you should be happy. It only made things worse for two people on here.