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Lexus
Susan 1967 posed same question awhile back. It appears to me that they are giving you the reading for total energy applied to your entire face, as well as other skin segments (Susan was given reading fro entire face) taking into account intensity, density and # passes. Readings of say 20 mj refers to the energy applied in a CM squared in a single pass and there are many CM squares on face,as well as multiple passes. You can refer to my previous post to Susan or check the Relaint website.
The Reliant website has guidelines for total energy for a face.
Maybe I am missing something, but 2.2 on a 5 point scale is not that impressive. I need to see the words that go with each rating to know for sure.
Basically the study says -
5 -6 treatments of
18-21mJ x 125 density x 10-12 passes = 2.2 out of 5 scale improvement.
That equates too 44% improvement from the above treatment guidelines. This is not far from the 50% figure we are quoted from other studies. I have come to the conclusion that :
High energy treatments above 20mJ over 5-6 treatments at 10 passes or more per treatment should net a total 40-50% improvement (on average) in scars.
Therefore -
(>20mj x 12 passes x 125 density x 6 treatments = 40-50% improvement on scars on average)
This seems to summarise what various studies are telling us. Debatable conclusion? Maybe, I am just concluding what the various studies and papers are telling us. Personally I am aiming for 50% over 5-6 treatments. I believe that is realistic. Thus far I have achieved 15-20% improvement on average over 3 treatments.
Blaster.
Lexus
Susan 1967 posed same question awhile back. It appears to me that they are giving you the reading for total energy applied to your entire face, as well as other skin segments (Susan was given reading fro entire face) taking into account intensity, density and # passes. Readings of say 20 mj refers to the energy applied in a CM squared in a single pass and there are many CM squares on face,as well as multiple passes. You can refer to my previous post to Susan or check the Relaint website.
The Reliant website has guidelines for total energy for a face.
Maybe I am missing something, but 2.2 on a 5 point scale is not that impressive. I need to see the words that go with each rating to know for sure.
Hey You - How would you rate your improvement?
These studies report more improvement than what I am seeing. There is a period after each treatment, I would not call it swelling, where my skin is very tight and looks good. My ratings would be highest at that time. But, later the skin becomes less tight and scars become more evident. I was hoping that 4 treatments at high settings would yield a 40% improvement, but I am not sure sure I am going to get it. Either I am an outlier or there is a little bit of PR behind these studies; 80% is inconceivable to me based on my personal experience to date, but wouldn't that be nice.
In theory, for acne scarring, I think that high energy settings are essential. Multiple sessions at lower settings simply won't affect the deeper dermis to promote a healing response in deeper scar tissue.
That said, i know Coolbreeze has reported nice results from many settings at lower levels.
I would say the improvement is small. I am starting to see the diffrence. But that could just me being optimistic.
Blaster
It was not clear to me that a rating of 5 equates to 100% improvement and 1 is 20% improvement. It could have been 1 = Poor, 2 =Fair, ... 5= Outstanding. You are probably right; otherwise researchers would not be excited.
Anyway, I too have seen about 15% to 20% after 3 and I am scheduled for only 1 more. My goal had been 40% (by the way, this is a gut level assessment and not too precise). It sounds like a small improvement, but I really like the fact that there is essentially no risk, especially compared to other procedures. I just wish I was seeing more bang for the buck.
With all these articles, there will be a migration to Fraxel as the treatment of choice.
I hope that means cheaper prices! And no more blue dye and pain! Where is the 1440 laser tip people mention every so often? Why isn't it being used everywhere . . .
I'm going to ask my doctor about the new tips at my next treatment on Friday. I imagine it's probably all about the cost of getting them. Or maybe they want to wait for more research before using them. I'll see what they say about it. Although, I'm in the midwest; usually not the first area new treatments are available.
Ive been researching the new Fraxel tip and this is the info I have to date. The Fraxel Extended Sapphire Tip is available for preorder now with delivery early to mid July 2006. The cost to our Physician is listed @ $500 a tip which will allow approximately 25 uses. Additional info as follows.
- Treats small hard to reach areas ie. around and under the nose area.
- Will be able to treat eyelids to the lashline (with use of internal eye guards).
- More accurate treatment due to better visability and smoother movement offered by the hand piece.
I spoke with a Reliant technician and asked if we would be able to get treatment without the blue dye using this tip. He said the dye requirement will remain the same. When asked about this tip allowing higher settings with less possibility of blistering or problems, he said it would be prudent to stay with the settings we are presently being treated with. I was looking for a more diffinative answer on the higher settings but I think they are staying on the conservative side for the time being.
Please post any additional info you may run acros as it may help us all!
Ive been researching the new Fraxel tip and this is the info I have to date. The Fraxel Extended Sapphire Tip is available for preorder now with delivery early to mid July 2006. The cost to our Physician is listed @ $500 a tip which will allow approximately 25 uses. Additional info as follows.
- Treats small hard to reach areas ie. around and under the nose area.
- Will be able to treat eyelids to the lashline (with use of internal eye guards).
- More accurate treatment due to better visability and smoother movement offered by the hand piece.
I spoke with a Reliant technician and asked if we would be able to get treatment without the blue dye using this tip. He said the dye requirement will remain the same. When asked about this tip allowing higher settings with less possibility of blistering or problems, he said it would be prudent to stay with the settings we are presently being treated with. I was looking for a more diffinative answer on the higher settings but I think they are staying on the conservative side for the time being.
Please post any additional info you may run acros as it may help us all!
My doctor is already using the new tip, and they don't use the blue dye anymore. I was in there a couple of weeks ago, and talked with them about it. I'm planning on waiting until fall for my second round, and also to hear about the results they're having with it so far.
Has anyone seen improvements with just ONE session of fraxel?
My swelling has just gone down, i would say i recieved 3% improvement probably due ot the skin tone and just something about it seems softer. Its really quite sad. I dont see how I'm gonna get to 3% to 30% or even 40% ;/
I was reading articles that were posted. It's certainly nice to know that overall sentiment about Fraxel is positive. But regarding treatment parameters mentioned, am not sure how seriously / literally we should take them. In such literature, facts are always over simplified and broadly generalized.
Also, just looking at treatment parameters ( in isolation ) and concluding from that could be somewhat misleading.
In my opinion, energy setting is just one dimension of the treatment. Coverage is another equally important and "orthogonal" factor. That means, doing less no. of treatments with high energy or more no. of treatments with low energy would not work as they would not compensate for each other.
If coverage increases randomly every treatment, there might not be significant improvement unless one does more no. of treatments. That was one of the important considerations for doing more than 4 treatments. I saw partial filling up of scars even at setting 12, but I attribute that to the fact that my skin is very sensitive ( I have a long history of retinol use / many TCA peels and other treatments ) and my scarring was mild/shallow. I also think, healing response is a good indicator to decide if one is getting undertreated.
My update : I have crossed initially irritation/redness phase of Triluma and am seeing hyperpigmentation fading better. I will review my results after another 2.5 weeks.
Scarsucks, fraxel results are progressive but not "linear". There will be low / very subtle results initially but more/faster results later. ( consider it like an exponential curve that body healing follows. )
#1 Cubsfan, have you identified that the tip your Dr. is presently using is the "Fraxel Extended Sapphire Tip"? I have not heard of any other new tip but according to Reliant you must still use blue dye with the tip I questioned them about.
They never said the name of it, but that the tip was cold and you could go to much higher levels with a lot less pain.
Coolbreeze
I think I understand your post and I certainly understand why your Doc is conservative because of pigment issues. I also understand that coverage is a very important component (that's why I think I may try a fifth treatment if I am not satsified after 4, whcih I think is likely).
That said, if a scar has depth, it stands to reason that you need to have a deeper thermal injury, hence a high energy setting. I am pleased, but very surprised, that you believe the visible healing accelerates with time. Is that what you have observed? Has your Doc told you that?
My sense is that it decelerates with time, but perhaps I am overly influenced by how good my skin looks after the peeling when it is really tight. Also, time accelerted healing is counter intuitive.
Not tryin to be difficult; just challenge someone who knows a lot.
Billyboy,
am always up for a logical debate and open to be convinced if a strong / valid argument is given.
If scars have more depth and / or are moderate to severe, it is definitely important to have aggressive energy settings ( as high as safely possible ) but more no. of treatments are required to ensure the coverage as well. So, if one thinks that doing only 3-4 treatments of say 25 mj would be more effective ( as higher energy is used ) then that might not be entirely true. In fact, with higher settings, density is less. If 15-17 % area is covered per treatment, 3 treatments cover only 45-50 % assuming that the coverage is linear. If it is not, it is still less. That means, at least 2-3 more treatments would be essential to ensure coverage to produce more prominent results even at 25 mj.
Regarding visible healing, I too was surprised that it was less with more # of treatments even though higher energy was used. But I did notice prolonged bronzing even though swelling and redness was less. My doctor mentioned that it might be due to thermal conditioning of the skin.
Ive been researching the new Fraxel tip and this is the info I have to date. The Fraxel Extended Sapphire Tip is available for preorder now with delivery early to mid July 2006. The cost to our Physician is listed @ $500 a tip which will allow approximately 25 uses. Additional info as follows.
- Treats small hard to reach areas ie. around and under the nose area.
- Will be able to treat eyelids to the lashline (with use of internal eye guards).
- More accurate treatment due to better visability and smoother movement offered by the hand piece.
I spoke with a Reliant technician and asked if we would be able to get treatment without the blue dye using this tip. He said the dye requirement will remain the same. When asked about this tip allowing higher settings with less possibility of blistering or problems, he said it would be prudent to stay with the settings we are presently being treated with. I was looking for a more diffinative answer on the higher settings but I think they are staying on the conservative side for the time being.
Please post any additional info you may run acros as it may help us all!
My doctor is already using the new tip, and they don't use the blue dye anymore. I was in there a couple of weeks ago, and talked with them about it. I'm planning on waiting until fall for my second round, and also to hear about the results they're having with it so far.
I am confused about the new tips. I have the Physician's Guide for fraxel in front of me that my derm gave me.
Regarding the tips it says, the Fraxel comes with two different size tips, one is 15 mm and the other 7 mm. The smaller one obviously for smaller, hard to reach areas.
Regarding the Blue dye, "an FDA certified water soluble tint.....allows the lasers Intelligent Optical Tracking System to detect contact with the skin and to adjust the treatment pattern with respect to hand piece velocity."
My derm told me that the blue dye highlights the contours of the skin and allows them to see the skin better, also said it was a bit of safety measure as well.
So....if they're not using the blue dye how does the tracking system work??
Peach Pie
Ive been researching the new Fraxel tip and this is the info I have to date. The Fraxel Extended Sapphire Tip is available for preorder now with delivery early to mid July 2006. The cost to our Physician is listed @ $500 a tip which will allow approximately 25 uses. Additional info as follows.
- Treats small hard to reach areas ie. around and under the nose area.
- Will be able to treat eyelids to the lashline (with use of internal eye guards).
- More accurate treatment due to better visability and smoother movement offered by the hand piece.
I spoke with a Reliant technician and asked if we would be able to get treatment without the blue dye using this tip. He said the dye requirement will remain the same. When asked about this tip allowing higher settings with less possibility of blistering or problems, he said it would be prudent to stay with the settings we are presently being treated with. I was looking for a more diffinative answer on the higher settings but I think they are staying on the conservative side for the time being.
Please post any additional info you may run acros as it may help us all!
My doctor is already using the new tip, and they don't use the blue dye anymore. I was in there a couple of weeks ago, and talked with them about it. I'm planning on waiting until fall for my second round, and also to hear about the results they're having with it so far.
I am confused about the new tips. I have the Physician's Guide for fraxel in front of me that my derm gave me.
Regarding the tips it says, the Fraxel comes with two different size tips, one is 15 mm and the other 7 mm. The smaller one obviously for smaller, hard to reach areas.
Regarding the Blue dye, "an FDA certified water soluble tint.....allows the lasers Intelligent Optical Tracking System to detect contact with the skin and to adjust the treatment pattern with respect to hand piece velocity."
My derm told me that the blue dye highlights the contours of the skin and allows them to see the skin better, also said it was a bit of safety measure as well.
So....if they're not using the blue dye how does the tracking system work??
Peach Pie
Good question. The name of the fraxel laser with no dye was "1440". Goblin had it done in baltimore.
Do you guys have any links to information about this new tip? I can't find anything on my google search. Is the new tip made by Reliant? Or is it made by another manufacturer to be compliant with the Fraxel laser? I'd be interested to see if the sapphire tip is the reason for not needing dye? The way I understood it was that the laser needs to "see" the blue color in order to work:
"This dye enables the laser to accurately track the skin during treatment."
Susan1967 said:Do you guys have any links to information about this new tip? I can't find anything on my google search. Is the new tip made by Reliant? Or is it made by another manufacturer to be compliant with the Fraxel laser? I'd be interested to see if the sapphire tip is the reason for not needing dye? The way I understood it was that the laser needs to "see" the blue color in order to work:
"This dye enables the laser to accurately track the skin during treatment."
The Sapphire Tip according to Reliant ( the manufacturer of The Fraxel Laser as well as the Sapphire Tip) must still use blue dye to work. You are correct that they have a small tip (part #MC-1S) and a large tip (part #MC-6L). The small was to be used in hard to reach areas with the large for remaining less contoured areas. The Sapphire tip (part #MC-1ES) allows better visbility for the operator and allows more control than the original small tip.
The following is an exerpt from an article accessable through a website called [Removed] (go to The Aesthetic Buyers Guide and click on "Featured Articles" for the entire article):
This new tip consists of a 2mm by 7mm sapphire block that protrudes alone, without a plastic shoulder, from a nipple-like mound. "This provides better visability and the ability to treat difficult to reach areas, such as the skin just below the lashline and right under the nose", explained Dr. Gasiorowski. She also noted that the new tip is suitable for rhytides that extend from the vermillion border to the base of the nose,especially near the columella on each side. "Traditionally, it has been hard to treat that area", she said. "Now it is easier to treat." To effectively use the new tip, Dr. Gasiorowski recommends that skin be stretched well and that the blue dye be applied properly. (end of exerpt)
I contacted Reliant to find out if they might have another new tip that could be used without blue dye, be a cool tip and generate less pain or damage at higher settings. The Product Technican was unaware of any other new tip. So I am very interested if #1cubsfan might get in touch with the Dr. using this other "new tip" and find out what the part number is so we can find out more.
In going to the website miinews.com there is also an article called "Pixel Handpiece From Alma Lasers Incorporates Fractional Ablation" which sounds like a Fraxel wannabe that is an Erbium laser using a new hand piece bsed on pixels which uses no dye. Could this be the 1440?
Regarding that study above, if they rated results at 2.2 after 5-6 treatments, that totally sux.
A different study, also done on a 1-5 scale, says "overall satisfaction was rated on a scale of 1
(below satisfactory) to 5 (outstanding)." If 1 is below satisfactory, 2.2 in the study I just mention is probably "small improvement" or something equivalent, not what I'm hoping for after 5x-6x.
Just a quick update.
I am a little over three weeks post third fraxel. I am starting to see good results now. I've even been getting compliments on the overall condition of my skin. My husband took a close up pic of me hugging my mom at graduation. It was a big picture of my cheek. I zoomed in looking for scars. They were insignificant. I don't worry about pictures anymore, or ponytails, or swimming, or being seen with a no-makeup morning face. It feels great.
I was planning on getting five but now I don't know. It is such a hassel and I'm feeling pretty satisfied. I get less and less excited to have them done which means I don't feel the overwhelming NEED anymore.
About blisters. I had a small one after my third treatment. It healed at about the same rate as the rest of my skin, was very small by the time I was ready to go out in public (four or five days) and was gone a day or two after that.
) I know a lot of you have had the fraxel laser treatment and I was just curious about numbers. My dr said I cld have up to 70 percent improvement, but of course it is probably just talk... so I am looking for more realistic numbers. Thanks!
Question 🙂 I know a lot of you have had the fraxel laser treatment and I was just curious about numbers. My dr said I cld have up to 70 percent improvement, but of course it is probably just talk... so I am looking for more realistic numbers. Thanks!
Very well could be. Depends on the settings, number of treatments and how your body responds to the treatment.