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Thought this post could be useful for giving more detailed information about suctioning after subcision. Reading the subcision-suction research paper https://owndoc.com/pdf/therapy-in-treatment-of-atrophic-acne-scars.pdf it states,
"Suctioning was performed by both vertical and horizontal hand-piece motions non-traumatizingly." imo, " non-traumatizingly" is a bit vague here, but to me this means the suction shouldn't affect your face in a significant manner i.e. cause a huge lump on your face.
Next, the journal states,
"In the beginning of suction period, elevated lesions were not suctioned until they became flat. On the first days, we used less negative pressure; but in the subsequent sessions, depending on the condition of scars, we could increase negative pressure (even to maximum: -70 mmHg), length of time (not more than 4 s in each pass) and the number of suctioning passes (even 8“12 passes) per session."
From the above quote I wanted to point out in this journal the researchers stated they didnt start suctioning scars that were stll round, they waited until they were "flat" or more flat, I guess. Since the start of re-depression of scars happens "from 2“5 days after subcision" I would wait 48 hours after your subcision to start suctioning, especially if your wounds are still "round"... I guess use your best discretion what "round" is.
Last but not least, the above states the maximum negative pressure the researchers used is: -70 mmHg. I'll be honest, I originally had no idea what -70 mmHg pressure was, let alone know what the pressure of the suction cups is when using them. For example, the pressure exerted when using a suction cup set like this https://www.amazon.com/Premium-Quality-Cupping-19-CUPPING/dp/B003KJC2F4 . This was the main point of this post, something I think left vague on the acne.org forums' posts related to subcision-suction.
After doing some research, I found another research paper here that talks about the pressure that comes from these suction cup sets: http://www.jmest.org/wp-content/uploads/JMESTN42350932.pdf . It states,
"The results also indicated a linear relationship between the suction height and the vacuum pressure. The mathematical representation of this relationship can be expressed as H=0.1|Pv|, where H and Pv are measured in mm and mmHg, respectively"
"Suction height" imo wasn't clearly defined but based on a picture shown and explanation of their procedure it seems like "suction height" means the height or distance, starting from your face, that your skin goes into the suction cup when suctioning. See H in below figure,
With the maximum vacuum negative pressure used by the subcision-suction research paper, you can calculate the subcision-suction researchers' maximum suction height which is 7mm (0.276 inches) e.g, 0.1 * |-70| mmHg = 7 mm
Also based on this, you can balance the equation to get the inverse function, pressure based on suction height: H (in mm) x 10 = | P | (in mmHg)
Anyone correct me if I'm wrong on this, but to me it seems like the most your suction height shoud be is 0.276 inches (7 mm), in other words if you put a ruler next to your face in mirror, the skin height in your suction cup should at most be a tiny bit more than a quarter of an inch. Imo even that is pushing it, because "on the first days" after subcison the reseachers stated they used less than -70mmHg, meaning less than a 7mm suction height.
Interested to hear anyone thoughts. Honestly and personally, especially if I was having trouble with the suction cup e.g., the suction cup won't stick, then I would only do a maximum skin suction of 0.5 inches (12.7 mm).
owndoc is a scam, 7mm 8mm 9mm all words, meaningless; doesn't matter
im one of the old posters in here that inspired a lot of people to do subcision, along with ummm i forgot the gentleman's name.. mr. something if i can remember (from 2016ish)
subcision, is not even all that either... i've had about 30 subcision treatments
im still looking for an answer
edit - although subcision with filler may be a better option (i havent tried fillers after subcision)
13 hours ago, Insearch said:owndoc is a scam, 7mm 8mm 9mm all words, meaningless; doesn't matter
im one of the old posters in here that inspired a lot of people to do subcision, along with ummm i forgot the gentleman's name.. mr. something if i can remember (from 2016ish)
subcision, is not even all that either... i've had about 30 subcision treatments
im still looking for an answer
edit - although subcision with filler may be a better option (i havent tried fillers after subcision)
which doctor did you go to btw? **edit** oh I see. Mr Rullan?Some doctors don't cut the tethers higher up in the superficial dermis. When they cut lower in the dermis apparently itcauses less effective results with subcision-suction.for example Dr Wiener cuts waylower than that in thesubcutaneouslayer. If you don't believe me he's says it with his own words .
Also to add to what I said earlier. I notice when I suction my jaw, the skin will stick in the cup more than other places without suction, so I guess suction height means more the distance your skin stretches in the suction cup when suctioning.
3 hours ago, Jason2121 said:Subcision is a scam imo. Doctors only get results when they use photoshop.
I mean the act of untethering a scar is the basis for putting filler in to begin with, and there are lots of pictures of real people with decent results ranging from minor to really good from subscision. How much it works or at all might depend on technique or case?
Just out of curiosity what makes you think subscision is a scam?
3 hours ago, Jason2121 said:Subcision is a scam imo. Doctors only get results when they use photoshop.
Subcision works but not in the sense that the scars edges will get trimmed if you have scar edges then you need top work. Subcision plus filler works when there is atrophy without edges. Like a rolling edge
5 hours ago, researchresearch said:which doctor did you go to btw? **edit** oh I see. Mr Rullan?Some doctors don't cut the tethers higher up in the superficial dermis. When they cut lower in the dermis apparently itcauses less effective results with subcision-suction.for example Dr Wiener cuts waylower than that in thesubcutaneouslayer. If you don't believe me he's says it with his own words .
Also to add to what I said earlier. I notice when I suction my jaw, the skin will stick in the cup more than other places without suction, so I guess suction height means more the distance your skin stretches in the suction cup when suctioning.
words are meaningless, i'v had subcision done by doctor using nokor needle and i'v done subcision myself, which cut the tethers higher up
ive recommended my doctor to a few people on here back in 2016 but i believe the doctor jacked up the price since then so im not sure id recommend him anymore
it's not whether i believe the doctor or not, it's just that i've had over 30 subcisions done by a professional and the results arent permanent
i dont agree subcision is a scam with the user above.. not sure what he's saying as he didn't elaborate
usually the swelling of subcision makes it seem like it works, not photoshop..
i do think subcision helps a little bit by itself because tethers are being cut but it always gets reattached so maybe fillers might help but i dont think suctioning helps
--- suctioning may help, in THEORY, but doesnt actually pan out in the real world
--- but if you say suctioning helped you, then you found your answer to scar treatments
owndoc is a scam tho, i said this years ago.. and i did buy stuff from them... all useless
On 4/17/2022 at 8:14 AM, Insearch said:owndoc is a scam, 7mm 8mm 9mm all words, meaningless; doesn't matter
im one of the old posters in here that inspired a lot of people to do subcision, along with ummm i forgot the gentleman's name.. mr. something if i can remember (from 2016ish)
subcision, is not even all that either... i've had about 30 subcision treatments
im still looking for an answer
edit - although subcision with filler may be a better option (i havent tried fillers after subcision)
U mean Mr. Matt?
1 hour ago, Gelko said:U mean Mr. Matt?
Yes, Mr.Matt! I just checked his post and it's crazy, looking back.. he only had four subcision treatments andseems like he hasn't posted since 2016?
As for your question above, I think you should seeif subcision and filler works. I'm not sure about RF microneedling, but I have done microneedling at home and didn't see any improvements.