55 minutes ago, can i get a new life please said:Its a energy device, ofcourse there is a risk of fat loss, but in good doctors hands risk is very small.
There's a risk of hitting and destroying the fat with most devices if you go deep into the skin. I guess for me 2.2mm must be ok causemonths later I still have all my facial fat.
6 hours ago, Vika88 said:If the risk is negligible,why aren't doctors microneedling with 3mm needles?
You claim fat loss from rf microneedling is well-documented. Where?? I thought you did extensive research. Don't direct people to Google now.
I don't have to proove anything to you or to anybody else. Believe me or don't believe me. I don't care.I've found a treatment that has given me noticeable results, and yes, better than all treatments before. I've done 1 session, 2 more to go. I've already found the right path onthe scar correction journeyfor me.Now I'm interested in how I can get my mild rosacea under control.
I posted only because I had completely different experience with sub and infini than you.
This is my last post to you because your logic is flawed and you are unverified.
The odds of tissue damagedueneedling into the fatty tissue is significantly less than RF. Thus, if you google, there are significantly more complains about energy device, and on MRF causing fat loss. And apart from fat loss, there are nerves and muscle so we rather not damage them. This is not a binary situation.
And people who has "super duper never seen before improvement" would be inclined to post their results. You are not the first, and you will not be the last.
You can now claim INFINI RF cure AIDS or corona virus, or regenerate limbs and I will not argue with you.
19 minutes ago, AcneScarGuy said:This is my last post to you because your logic is flawed and you are unverified.
The odds of tissue damagedueneedling into the fatty tissue is significantly less than RF. Thus, if you google, there are significantly more complains about energy device, and on MRF causing fat loss. And apart from fat loss, there are nerves and muscle so we rather not damage them. This is not a binary situation.
And people who has "super duper never seen before improvement" would be inclined to post their results. You are not the first, and you will not be the last.
You can now claim INFINI RF cure AIDS or corona virus, or regenerate limbs and I will not argue with you.
My logic is not flawed. I never said that rf microneedling cannot cause facial fat loss.
I said that it rather depends on your skin and on the needle length, i.e. the needle penetration, if you suffer fat loss or not. At least that's what doctors are saying.
Of course, the risk is higher with rf devices and lasers because you use energy but if you don't get too deep the risk is controllable.
If it was only the high energy intensity which was the problem, then dermatologist would dermaroll with 3mm needles. Why don't they?
You said rf microneedling causing fat loss is well-documented and you did research but you couldn't find one study on acne scars.
I am not as brave as you to post my scars on youtube. But I did get results. There are many people like Miro or others who also saw inprovement from rf microneedling from the first treatment and don't have pictures.You don't believe them too? I don't know why you have such a hard time believing others can get results too.
13 minutes ago, Vika88 said:My logic is not flawed. I never said that rf microneedling cannot cause facial fat loss.
I said that it rather depends on your skin and on the needle length, i.e. the needle penetration, if you suffer fat loss or not. At least that's what doctors are saying.
Of course, the risk is higher with rf devices and lasers because you use energy but if you don't get too deep the risk is controllable.
If it was only the high energy intensity which was the problem, then dermatologist would dermaroll with 3mm needles. Why don't they?
You said rf microneedling causing fat loss is well-documented and you did research but you couldn't find one study on acne scars.
I am not as brave as you to post my scars on youtube. But I did get results. There are many people like Miro or others who also saw inprovement from rf microneedling from the first treatment and don't have pictures.You don't believe them too? I don't know why you have such a hard time believing others can get results too.
Sigh, in the interest of everyone.
Needles can cut nerves and muscle. Thus it is ill adviced to have long needles.
You are thinking that long needles ONLY cause fat loss, this is a limitation of your perception. Thus, i claim your logic is flawed. To help you better understand, why not 3cm derma roller? Because you will be cutting bones.
I dont like to talk down to people but there is no helping in this situation.
1 hour ago, AcneScarGuy said:Sigh, in the interest of everyone.
Needles can cut nerves and muscle. Thus it is ill adviced to have long needles.
You are thinking that long needles ONLY cause fat loss, this is a limitation of your perception. Thus, i claim your logic is flawed. To help you better understand, why not 3cm derma roller? Because you will be cutting bones.
I dont like to talk down to people but there is no helping in this situation.
Go argue with the scar specialists then who say it's rather the needle length not so much the high energy that's the problem. The logic is simple. If you go down deep enough and fit the fat, you can get fat loss. If you stay within safe range, you can use high energy and it will be ok.
You can believe me or not. Your choice. I'm telling you I got 3 passes of 70mj with 2.2 mm at most and I don't have any issues.
There you go. The dermis can be up to 4mm thick. There are still no muscles and bones at that depth.
Someone who knows more can correct me but according to this there are no fat cells in the dermis. The fat layer comes after the dermis so it should be perfectly fine to use high energy WITHIN the dermis. It's the job of a good doctor to estimate how thick your dermis is and what depth should be safe in any individual case.
I said that the risk is the needle length and that in thin skinned people you can hit the fat if you use 3mm even with simple dermarolling. That's why doctors play it safe and dermaroll at 1.5mm or 2mm with or without rf energy. It's not because you can cause muscle or bone damage. Those are much deeper than 3mm.
Watch out who you are looking down on next time. Your condescending attitude doesn't help much. We're here to share experience and discuss things.
Just to clarify that 'skin'isunlikely to be4mm thick on the face, YMMV but in adults as shown by a recent study:
- The average thickness of forehead skin is 1.70 mm and superficial fat is 1.99 mm.
- Average thickness of the radix and dorsum skin is 1.51mm and superficial fat is 1.61 mm.
- Average thickness of the supraorbital region skin is 1.67mm and superficial fat is 1.82 mm.
- Average thickness of the infraorbital area skin is 1.97mm and for superficial fat its 4.93 mm.
- In the perioral region, the average thickness of skin is 1.82mm and superficial fat is 5.14 mm.
- In the temple, the average skin thickness is 1.65mm and superficial fat thickness is 2.58 mm.
- In the cheek, the average skin thickness is 1.85 mm and average superficial fat thickness at the cheek is 4.54 mm.
22 minutes ago, F1racer said:Just to clarify that 'skin'isunlikely to be4mm thick on the face, YMMV but in adults as shown by a recent study:
- The average thickness of forehead skin is 1.70 mm and superficial fat is 1.99 mm.
- Average thickness of the radix and dorsum skin is 1.51mm and superficial fat is 1.61 mm.
- Average thickness of the supraorbital region skin is 1.67mm and superficial fat is 1.82 mm.
- Average thickness of the infraorbital area skin is 1.97mm and for superficial fat its 4.93 mm.
- In the perioral region, the average thickness of skin is 1.82mm and superficial fat is 5.14 mm.
- In the temple, the average skin thickness is 1.65mm and superficial fat thickness is 2.58 mm.
- In the cheek, the average skin thickness is 1.85 mm and average superficial fat thickness at the cheek is 4.54 mm.
The AVERAGE (!) skin thickness and the AVERAGE (!) superficial fat thickness.
It's the doctor who examines your skin that can estimate how thick your INDIVIDUAL skin is. Some have thiner others thicker skin. The range ofthe dermis is 1-4mm.
People like me with fair oily and problematic skin tend to have thicker skin. I read that somewhere. That's why 2.2mm at the first pass was safe in my case. Doctor's estimate.
Your info is consistant with what I'm saying. Most doctors use the avarage settings of 1.5 mm up to 2.0mm to avoid hitting the fat. 3mm would be a risk. I remember reading that 2.5mm was the deepest you can go to play it safe.Beyond this depthyou seriously risk hitting the fat.
You will see I wrote YMMV (your mileage may vary) if you are unaware of that acronym. I am not arguing with you. I'm just pointing out that 4mm skin thickness is highly unlikely on the FACE. The 4mm that you are referring to is on the palms of your hands and the soles of your feet.
29 minutes ago, F1racer said:You will see I wrote YMMV (your mileage may vary) if you are unaware of that acronym. I am not arguing with you. I'm just pointing out that 4mm skin thickness is highly unlikely on the FACE.
It could be. You are right. As I said you can correct me, I am not a dermatologist. I'm only saying what the doctor has told me and what I've read are the safe ranges in terms of depth for suchprocedures on the face.
But still it's nearly impossiblethat you can damage muscles and bones on the face with 3mm needle in a healthy person. You have a fat layer under the skinaveraging 4.54 mm thickness on the cheeks. That's why I inserted the link of the dermis' thickness.
13 hours ago, F1racer said:Interesting theory from Dr Weiner - he believes that RF energy travels along the tethers and can worsen the scars by causingcollagen contraction.
This link is very good. His theory explains why you may not get results frominfini alone, but mightvery well get results from infini right after subcision.
58 minutes ago, can i get a new life please said:Both of you right. There is no need to be harsh.
I was aggessively dismissed because I'm new. All I'm saying is up the energy settings as much as your skin type allows is, be careful withthe needle depth and combine infini with subcision and noticeable results might be achievable. I'm really very happy with this combination. And I disagreed that fat loss is well-documented. There might be incidents sure but most doctors are aware of this and use conservative settings to avoid it.
Unknown poster refused to post pictures, make illogical statement, provided no evidence, make wild claims, refused science, hide behind "my unknown doctor said so".
Normal mentally healthy person: please show some proof of your improvement.
Unknownposter went nuts and claimed victim, "I was aggressively dismissed BECAUSE I AM NEW!!!"
Thats internet for you everyone.
12 hours ago, AcneScarGuy said:Unknown poster refused to post pictures, make illogical statement, provided no evidence, make wild claims, refused science, hide behind "my unknown doctor said so".
Normal mentally healthy person: please show some proof of your improvement.
Unknownposter went nuts and claimed victim, "I was aggressively dismissed BECAUSE I AM NEW!!!"
Thats internet for you everyone.
For the record you didn't ask please show some proof of your improvement, but stated "Photos or it NEVER happened". After that you explained to everybody what a liar I am because my profile is new and even other users told you to chill and not be so aggressive. So....
You never asked about my doctor but said he doesn't know what he's doingbecause you don't agree with him..
You know not everybody takes thousand photos of their scars and photodocument everything. Nor is everyone comfortable with posting photosonline.I have eyes and can see if improvement is there or not. But especially for you I'll try to shoot some under the same lighting now and after my second and third session and I'll send them to you in a pm. Not that you deserve but sometimes you've got to be kind to the undeserving.For now I'm telling you and everybody elsenot to dismiss infini because it can really help some people. Maybe not everybody but certainly some people. I have mostly rolling scars and a cluster of box scars on my cheeks and they responded well for now. Hopefully more aftertreatment #2 and #3.
55 minutes ago, can i get a new life please said:Send me that photos too
..
Ok. I'll be having my second treatment the end of November so you can expect themaround December. Remind me cause I can forget.
The least one can do is combine infini with subcision. Many doctors and also users here have said that that's necessary for infini to work best, to cut through any tethers first.
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1 hour ago, Sirius Lee said:Guys, instead of wasting your time responding (it will only land on deaf ears anyway), use the "ignore user" function. It was created for a reason.
1) Point the cursor at the username
2) Select "ignore user" in the pop-up screen
Yeah but people might think infini is useless and that couldn't be further from the truth, especially if you combine it with subcision and can get higher settings. I said I had dramatic results because for the first time I saw visible change in my scars. People around me noticed it too without me having to tell them I've done something. It's not fair to dismiss a treatment just because one person had bad results from it.
8 minutes ago, Vika88 said:Yeah but people might think infini is useless and that couldn't be further from the truth, especially if you combine it with subcision and can get higher settings. I said I had dramatic results because for the first time I saw visible change in my scars. People around me noticed it too without me having to tell them I've done something. It's not fair to dismiss a treatment just because one personhad bad results from it.
I can fully understand and appreciate your need to defend your view on Infini but, really, was there aneed to get on the merry-go-round and say the same thing over and over like a broken CD?
I believe people are not so naive as you might think. Most people are rationale enough to weigh the pros and cons on their own, and not jump to conclusion based on a hearsay.
11 minutes ago, Sirius Lee said:I can fully understand and appreciate your need to defend your view on Infini but, really, was there aneed to get on the merry-go-round and say the same thing over and over like a broken CD?
I believe people are not so naive as you might think. Most people are rationale enough to weigh the pros and cons on their own, and not jump to conclusion based on a hearsay.
I might have been caught up in the argument more that I wanted to but I was making my point because as you said if was as if I was landing on deaf ears.
Fat loss is a feared complication. I had serious reservations about it too. That's why I wanted to emphasize...ok maybea few times more than necessary...that it is not well-documented, butrather rare.
This debate is becoming absurd, but i mean whole this thread is, what are u supposed to achieve with this or whats the purpose ?
AcneScarGuycomes here and says dont do Microneedling RF cause i had bad exp. learn from it. Oh comon, there are people that claim they had bad exp. with subcision, with TCA cross, with Phenol cross, with medium peels, with lasers, so lets do nothing ?
We will all wait for some miracle treatment to come and save our skin, jesus.
Every treatment is only as good as a doctor that performs that treatment.
Everyone should do a research on his own and find a doctor - acne scars expertwith good reputation make an appointment , let him check your skin personally and you decide yourself whats next, if u let him do something to your face or not,and dontlisten to this nonsense here on internet.
If u dont have superficial acne scars, u need to find someone who does manual procedures and is good at it.
Your doctor was an idiot to put energy on tethered scars without subcising em first , that doesnt mean treatment doesnt work.
And as for pictures, not many people are comfortable with puting pictures online on internet forum.
F.e.Sirius Leeis advicing people to use high concentration TCA on their scars if i remeber it correctaly claiming he has / had great results from it with his home treatments, i dont remeber seeing single picture from him, so about those hearsay ...
2 hours ago, Miro said:This debate is becoming absurd, but i mean whole this thread is, what are u supposed to achieve with this or whats the purpose ?
AcneScarGuy comes here and says dont do Microneedling RF cause i had bad exp. learn from it. Oh comon, there are people that claim they had bad exp. with subcision, with TCA cross, with Phenol cross, with medium peels, with lasers, so lets do nothing ?
We will all wait for some miracle treatment to come and save our skin, jesus.
Every treatment is only as good as a doctor that performs that treatment.
Everyone should do a research on his own and find a doctor - acne scars expert with good reputation make an appointment , let him check your skin personally and you decide yourself whats next, if u let him do something to your face or not, and dont listen to this nonsense here on internet.
If u dont have superficial acne scars, u need to find someone who does manual procedures and is good at it.
Your doctor was an idiot to put energy on tethered scars without subcising em first , that doesnt mean treatment doesnt work.
And as for pictures, not many people are comfortable with puting pictures online on internet forum.
F.e. Sirius Lee is advicing people to use high concentration TCA on their scars if i remeber it correctaly claiming he has / had great results from it with his home treatments, i dont remeber seeing single picture from him, so about those hearsay ...
I presume this post was directed at me? I check once in a while because I have other things to do, like live a life, but oh well.
My first video was subcision with cupping a year ago, it is was well received. I made that video after because this community will find value in it. This acne community has help me with its information about cupping, and I want to add value.
Now if you watch my INFINI RF video, I treaded carefully and tried to state what is fact and what is opinion. This is important for viewers to make a judgement call. I gave PROOF, which is sorely needed... what INFINI RF is not good at so that people would not be swindled into thinking what is good for. And I gave PROOF for people so that they know the risk involved so that they can make an informed choice. I did not say INFINI RF is bad for EVERYONE, but I stated INFINI RF is bad for severe scarring, and did nothing for MY severe scarring. I even stated in the video how it can be more effective.
Your logic is flawed by the way. The doctor who first treated me is not a idiot if it is not obvious to you, and he did what did to maximize profit. To assume doctors are not always looking out for you is what I wanted to point out. And try not to take things on the surface, it may look idiotic to you but there may be a reason behind it.
In all treatment, it is necessary to weight the risk and not be carried away. Even in my subcision video, I stated to find a professional skilled in subcision because subcision is a very invasive treatment. My video make the risk for INFINI RF real. Imagine a medicine caused major side effects, yet people who doesn't have side effects tried to drown you out just because they suffer no such side effect. This is the case now.
Now, on this guy/gal/unknown poster who hijacked my thread, I responded as rationally as possible. If you see my post, I asked things like, are you sure it is not subcision that did most of the improvement and not infini rf. And asked what is the improvement with photos, etc. I responded in chances and not absolute because I do not brush off risk in totality. And reader who follow him/her will find that his/her stand and argument changes along the way, with weak effort at strawman argument, peppered with illogical reasoning. It is becoming quite taxing to respond to him/her but the more he/she respond it seems more people become aware of the risk of INFINI RF, which is a good thing. Once people stop and think, they will do their own research and people usually convince themselve better.
And for people who take things at face value without proof, I find it sad. These are the people who get swindled by scams and false advertisement.
Person A : Hi, let me sell you a car but I cannot show the car to you but you need to send me the money first.
Person B : Sure, let me transfer money to you, no need for any proof what so ever. 
A logical person will ask for evidence and proof, and imagine people trying to coerce you, "Hey, you are aggressive for asking for proof before buying a car", "Hey, Sirus Lee bought cars without proof, you should follow suit."
To me, the above is illogical and sad, and I find that train of thought very weak.
By the way, I am not really responding to you because you have some bias already. I am responding because there are people who are reading this and they will learn from this encounter. Feel free to argue how wrong I am, or butcher my intention of posting the video. I will check back in a few days time.
@Miroyour logic is flawed, my logic is flawed, my non-existent doctor's logic is flawed! LOL i think hedoesn't even want proof, he just wants to be right. One of those unsolicited advice-givers.
17 minutes ago, Vika88 said:@Miroyour logic is flawed, my logic is flawed, my non-existent doctor's logic is flawed! LOL i think hedoesn't even want proof, he just wants to be right. One of those unsolicited advice-givers.
For a person with flawed logic everyone with diff opinion has flawed logic
9 minutes ago, Miro said:For a person with flawed logic everyone with diff opinion has flawed logic
Yeah @AcneScarGuydoesn't seem to be willing to listen to any opinion contrary to his own. Which is a pity. Everyone can be mistaken sometimes.
AcneScarGuy, I didn't understand what infini settings you were treated with and by which doctor but I hope you have found / you find a good onewho can help you get the degree of improvement you feel comfortable with. Who knows even infini or the improved genius could be of service in the process.
Hi guys and gals,
I hope the people here read through the exchange I have here and learnhow to apply critical thinking to unknown posters such as Vika88. I suspect this individual would need otherhelp than to fix acne scar and there are many such people around in the internet.
My advice would be to do manual treatment for the severescar and finish off with rest using laser and RF, and not at the same time.IMO, having INFINI and SUB togetheris not cost effective because INFINI can cause the tethered scar to reform during the healing process, I will try to explain in the next video if I can.
A logical thinker would realise majority of the scar would be fixed by manual process while energy treatment provide limited help. Please know that INFINI RF is more expensive than subcision treatment, and carries certainrisk. If you look through Davin Lim's videos, there is one part where he caution energy device and RF can melt fat and he said most derms listen to the company so they said it will not. The video is under micro needling in his channel.So please do your research first. I provide more proof with pictures but there is a limit to how much I can help.
Lastly, It is never a productive thing to do to argue with unknownindvidual who change his or her stance along the way and cherry pick things to argue with and try to strawman for the sake of winning, but it gave me motivation to make the next video to help this acne scar community and to reach out to more people. Thanks people!
On 10/3/2020 at 6:09 AM, AcneScarGuy said:Hi guys and gals,
I hope the people here read through the exchange I have here and learnhow to apply critical thinking to unknown posters such as Vika88. I suspect this individual would need otherhelp than to fix acne scar and there are many such people around in the internet.
My advice would be to do manual treatment for the severescar and finish off with rest using laser and RF, and not at the same time.IMO, having INFINI and SUB togetheris not cost effective because INFINI can cause the tethered scar to reform during the healing process, I will try to explain in the next video if I can.
A logical thinker would realise majority of the scar would be fixed by manual process while energy treatment provide limited help. Please know that INFINI RF is more expensive than subcision treatment, and carries certainrisk. If you look through Davin Lim's videos, there is one part where he caution energy device and RF can melt fat and he said most derms listen to the company so they said it will not. The video is under micro needling in his channel.So please do your research first. I provide more proof with pictures but there is a limit to how much I can help.
Lastly, It is never a productive thing to do to argue with unknownindvidual who change his or her stance along the way and cherry pick things to argue with and try to strawman for the sake of winning, but it gave me motivation to make the next video to help this acne scar community and to reach out to more people. Thanks people!
thank you for your opinion of me but nobody asked for it. you are not interested in any discussions, I offered to send you photos to see for yourself that I get and hopefully will get more improvement. instead you just dismiss me as a liar and also dismiss my positive results because infini not only didn't help but also damaged your skin. you obviously didn't have luck with your doctor. as for the critical thinking and arguing on your part, I won't repeat myself, nor will I tell you what a degree I have. Instead I will wish you to find some posivity, joy and happiness in life despite your scars, cause from what you write you most definitely need it.