On 11/5/2015 at 7:13 AM, il90 said:

This is EXACTLY what happens to me too. Although would you rather it be the other way around? At least you look good when you go to work and most day of work... then at night... yes it sucks... but you'll figure it out. At least you'll be a day time person instead of a night time one... It is definitely healthier... Look into dermastamp and subcision!

You have very pretty cheek bones! And, face of course.

On 11/5/2015 at 5:28 PM, il90 said:

What about taking a nap before you go out at night? How long do you have to be asleep for it to bloat up? Would fat grafting create the same? What about fillers?

I must say though, that in the last picture it only looks bad because of your cheek bones, the second picture isn't really that bad to be honest. It will definitely not distract from your looks or anything. Start dermapen, and maybe go see someone that can do TCA cross? It'll probably take you 3-4 times before you are satisfied but I think TCA is great for boxcar which is pretty much what you have.

On 11/5/2015 at 8:55 PM, Andrei11 said:

pretty mind blowing the quantity of bad advice around here. you have moderate to severe scars, I will be left after Roaccutane with almost the same scars you have and 4 dermatologists I've been in the last 3 months told me that Fraxel laser is the only thing that will get me good results and I'll have to get 4-6 sessions and the best results might be seen after 6 monts and up to a year. I live in Romania, btw and I'm telling you what dermatologists told me, not what I believe it would be good for me. My current derm told me I have to wait at least 3 months after Roaccutane in order to get Fraxel laser.

First of all, I think there is a difference between 100 percent improvement and with being 100 percent satisfied. You can have a 50 percent improvement and be 100 percent satisfied. I think being satisfied or not depends on your expectations. Speaking for myself, I would be 100 percent satisfied with a 70 percent improvement, because i think this is at the upper end of what is achieveable and because it just doesn't have to be perfect.

Furthermore, i think that it is in part because of the fact that multiple treatment are needed that personal reviews are not representable for the treatment as a whole. You will see a lot of posts saying people are dissapointed, while they have had only one treatment and are therefore not even in a position to give an accurate review of the treatment. 

I also do not believe that anyone who succeeded in getting rid of severe or moderate scarring will share this on the internet. I can imagine that when you get to that point, you truley want to forget that awefull period as fast as you can. 

What also has to be taken into account is the phenomenon called 'tunnel vision': people tend to see only those reviews that fits with what they already do believe and they tend to discard those reviews that converge from their prior beliefs. 

Okay, you would be okay with 70% but you're still around though? Even you who don't even want 100% are drawn to these forums. The idea that I was presenting before was that having scar treatment is not going to be like walking in a straight line. Most will stumble and seek advice from other people before they reach the end of the road. Therefore, we will hear from more people in this case than in a case where you have more success rate straight away. 

I don't really want to argue with you, and I understand these theories very well... But if you do believe that we have 'tunnel vision' with regards to Subcision and dermapen it is also proper that you present studies (independent) to contradict the belief in the first place. You cannot just say oh you have 'tunnel vision' because you believe subcision is superior to laser, you have to actually convince me with proper studies that I am wrong. 

For now there are no comparative studies, which might never be developed considering the money that would be lost if word came out that these simple cheap procedures have the same effect with less risks, so there is no way of knowing.

But the fact is laser is really EXPENSIVE and RISKY, two things you don't want. While subcision and derma roller is very cheap and pretty safe really. This is not 'tunnel vision' it is just making an analytical decision on the evidence that exists today. I won't reject real evidence on this, because it is not a matter of being right, or winning an argument, but my life and my skin which comes before being right about this shit. Trust me I don't care, and if you are right then great because that means lasers WORK and that is better than winning any argument. 

ANYWAYS, all I want for OP though is not having to go through the painful experiences people seem to have had with Fraxel and lasers in general and that she finds a treatment that she will be happy with. 

No one disputes the fact that we have damaged skin, what is being discussed is actually how to correct it.

Don't really want to answer you, but that would mean not helping the girl who made this topic.First of all, I said VISIA/dermatoscopy + other computerised program (I don't remember how it's called and I threw the papers away). If you think people who have had thousands of pacients combined with acne/scars are doing these"irrelevant" things just to get your money, then I don't know what to tell you.Second of all, I said 4 dermatologists, not one. I decided to stick with the last one and she showed me about 500 cases with all the methods they've had in their clinic, not only the best ones, there were cases with 10% improvement and cases with extremely good results, I'd go and say as far as 80% improvement forreally bad cases. Most of the clinics here have all the methods available to correct scars, do you think they only know about Fraxel? And last, you're pulling out those prices from your ass.

Subcision/TCA cross/dermapen/prp = 300 pounds

lol. Subcision = 20-30 euro/cm2, the girl who made the topic has a big surface to correct, that's about 30-35 cm2 on each cheek, so at least 60 cm2. The aenesthesia alone is about 200-300 euro.
Dermapen = 120-150 euro/session , you might need 4-8 sessions.
PRP = 250-300 euro, you will need about 3 sessions.

Even if she goes for PRP or dermapen, she will most likely still need fillers or peelings as well. It's not about how risky or pricey these methods are, it's about if you will have good results and you can't just pick one because someone on the Internet told you. I hope the girl who made this topic is smart enough to realise she has a pretty tough case of scars that needs professional attention if she wants serious improvement.

No one disputes the fact that we have damaged skin, what is being discussed is actually how to correct it.

Don't really want to answer you, but that would mean not helping the girl who made this topic. First of all, I said VISIA/dermatoscopy + other computerised program (I don't remember how it's called and I threw the papers away). If you think people who have had thousands of pacients combined with acne/scars are doing these "irrelevant" things just to get your money, then I don't know what to tell you. Second of all, I said 4 dermatologists, not one. I decided to stick with the last one and she showed me about 500 cases with all the methods they've had in their clinic, not only the best ones, there were cases with 10% improvement and cases with extremely good results, I'd go and say as far as 80% improvement for really bad cases. Most of the clinics here have all the methods available to correct scars, do you think they only know about Fraxel? And last, you're pulling out those prices from your ass. 
 

Subcision/TCA cross/dermapen/prp = 300 pounds

lol. Subcision = 20-30 euro/cm2, the girl who made the topic has a big surface to correct, that's about 30-35 cm2 on each cheek, so at least 60 cm2. The aenesthesia alone is about 200-300 euro.
Dermapen = 120-150 euro/session , you might need 4-8 sessions.
PRP = 250-300 euro, you will need about 3 sessions.

Even if she goes for PRP or dermapen, she will most likely still need fillers or peelings as well. It's not about how risky or pricey these methods are, it's about if you will have good results and you can't just pick one because someone on the Internet told you. I hope the girl who made this topic is smart enough to realise she has a pretty tough case of scars that needs professional attention if she wants serious improvement.

First of all, I think there is a difference between 100 percent improvement and with being 100 percent satisfied. You can have a 50 percent improvement and be 100 percent satisfied. I think being satisfied or not depends on your expectations. Speaking for myself, I would be 100 percent satisfied with a 70 percent improvement, because i think this is at the upper end of what is achieveable and because it just doesn't have to be perfect.

Furthermore, i think that it is in part because of the fact that multiple treatment are needed that personal reviews are not representable for the treatment as a whole. You will see a lot of posts saying people are dissapointed, while they have had only one treatment and are therefore not even in a position to give an accurate review of the treatment. 

I also do not believe that anyone who succeeded in getting rid of severe or moderate scarring will share this on the internet. I can imagine that when you get to that point, you truley want to forget that awefull period as fast as you can. 

What also has to be taken into account is the phenomenon called 'tunnel vision': people tend to see only those reviews that fits with what they already do believe and they tend to discard those reviews that converge from their prior beliefs. 

Okay, you would be okay with 70% but you're still around though? Even you who don't even want 100% are drawn to these forums. The idea that I was presenting before was that having scar treatment is not going to be like walking in a straight line. Most will stumble and seek advice from other people before they reach the end of the road. Therefore, we will hear from more people in this case than in a case where you have more success rate straight away. 

I don't really want to argue with you, and I understand these theories very well... But if you do believe that we have 'tunnel vision' with regards to Subcision and dermapen it is also proper that you present studies (independent) to contradict the belief in the first place. You cannot just say oh you have 'tunnel vision' because you believe subcision is superior to laser, you have to actually convince me with proper studies that I am wrong. 

For now there are no comparative studies, which might never be developed considering the money that would be lost if word came out that these simple cheap procedures have the same effect with less risks, so there is no way of knowing.

But the fact is laser is really EXPENSIVE and RISKY, two things you don't want. While subcision and derma roller is very cheap and pretty safe really. This is not 'tunnel vision' it is just making an analytical decision on the evidence that exists today. I won't reject real evidence on this, because it is not a matter of being right, or winning an argument, but my life and my skin which comes before being right about this shit. Trust me I don't care, and if you are right then great because that means lasers WORK and that is better than winning any argument. 

ANYWAYS, all I want for OP though is not having to go through the painful experiences people seem to have had with Fraxel and lasers in general and that she finds a treatment that she will be happy with. 

Thank you il90, your post were really helpful. I've read a lot of bad reviews of lasers and I am to afraid to start with it (fdont have the money either), and starting with more safer and cheaper options seems like a good decision

You wrote :Subcision/TCA cross/dermapen/prp. What is prp? And what is the best option to start with? Dermapen/Dermaroller is the less risky thing out of these? And would you do TCA at home ?
Thank you:)

 

That's weird I have thesame scars as OP and I pay 300 for prp/subcision/dermastamp/tca cross per session (I had my first one 2 weeks ago), and yes my doctor said I would need a couple spaced 3 months apart but that is totally doable.

 

That's weird I have thesame scars as OP and I pay 300 for prp/subcision/dermastamp/tca cross per session (I had my first one 2 weeks ago), and yes my doctor said I would need a couple spaced 3 months apart but that is totally doable.

yeah, I've seen your thread and you can't compare your scars to hers. so you will have to pay 600 pounds for 2 sessions, that's about 850 euro, 6 (if need be)fraxel sessions (for example)= 6 x 150 euro = 900 euro and I'm convinced you can get better results. make sure to post pictures after you finish your second session, no matter what the results are. but then again, you're already pulling the "my pictures are not that good, the scars are way worse" thing, so yeah. good luck to everyone.

 

You are now making very specific claims.Where can you find a doctor performing fraxel for 150 euro a treatment? I am assuming that you are talking about fraxel re:store, the least invasive fraxel treatment. But even fraxel re:store typically costs about 800 euros a treatment (that is about 900 dollars or 700 pounds). Fraxel re:pair is a whole different story, and typically costs around 4000 euro's. You also have to keep in mind that prices vary greatly in differentcountries, thus even if you are right and you can get fraxel re:store for 150 euro's a treatment where you live, this does not have to be so where Naomi lives.

 

You are now making very specific claims.Where can you find a doctor performing fraxel for 150 euro a treatment? I am assuming that you are talking about fraxel re:store, the least invasive fraxel treatment. But even fraxel re:store typically costs about 800 euros a treatment (that is about 900 dollars or 700 pounds). Fraxel re:pair is a whole different story, and typically costs around 4000 euro's. You also have to keep in mind that prices vary greatly in differentcountries, thus even if you are right and you can get fraxel re:store for 150 euro's a treatment where you live, this does not have to be so where Naomi lives.

Definitely, but Naomi lives in Hungary which is very close to Romania, where there are many clinics with lasers/other methods. I get what you're saying, for exampleI've read that a root canal in the USA cancost 500-1000$, here you can get it for as cheap as 100$. Don't know if I'm allowed to postlinks, but I can PM you if you're curious. Don't know about Fraxel re:fine, but you can get re:store for 150e/session and re:pairfor 1200-1400 euro (single treatment procedure). But it's true, you have to be careful, because here in my city I've found clinics (dermatology and stomatology)performing the same methods and charging double or more on every procedure, just because they're located in expensive neighbourhoods. You can also pick other fractional lasers here as well, not necessary Fraxel. Let me know if you want me to PM you some links.

 

You are now making very specific claims.Where can you find a doctor performing fraxel for 150 euro a treatment? I am assuming that you are talking about fraxel re:store, the least invasive fraxel treatment. But even fraxel re:store typically costs about 800 euros a treatment (that is about 900 dollars or 700 pounds). Fraxel re:pair is a whole different story, and typically costs around 4000 euro's. You also have to keep in mind that prices vary greatly in differentcountries, thus even if you are right and you can get fraxel re:store for 150 euro's a treatment where you live, this does not have to be so where Naomi lives.

Definitely, but Naomi lives in Hungary which is very close to Romania, where there are many clinics with lasers/other methods. I get what you're saying, for exampleI've read that a root canal in the USA cancost 500-1000$, here you can get it for as cheap as 100$. Don't know if I'm allowed to postlinks, but I can PM you if you're curious. Don't know about Fraxel re:fine, but you can get re:store for 150e/session and re:pairfor 1200-1400 euro (single treatment procedure). But it's true, you have to be careful, because here in my city I've found clinics (dermatology and stomatology)performing the same methods and charging double or more on every procedure, just because they're located in expensive neighbourhoods. You can also pick other fractional lasers here as well, not necessary Fraxel. Let me know if you want me to PM you some links.

 

Thanks for the elaboration. Now I am just curious: are fraxel treatments for such low prices performed by dermatologists or by nurses? And what is the general quality of those treatments? Do you think it is comparable with treatments performed elsewhere for higher prices?

Re:store doesn't do anything for depressed scars though, so you need to get re:pair which lands you at 1200 at least per session, and you need, what, 6 sessions? 8200 euros?

 

Thanks for the elaboration. Now I am just curious: are fraxel treatments for such low prices performed by dermatologists or by nurses? And what is the general quality of those treatments? Do you think it is comparable with treatments performed elsewhere for higher prices?

Dermatologists, don't even know if nurses are allowed to do such thing, are they? I've had some co2 laser done a few months ago (not dermatology) and it was done by a doctor, but there were two nurses there as well to help. I think it's the same, the only difference is obviously the experience of the doctor. I know it sounds pretty "cheap", even though it's still pretty expensive, but think about my comparison with stomatology in Romania compared to USA/Italy,Spain etc. Even here, for example, you can get a root canal or anything else, for let's say 100$ and then there's a super expensive clinic, that has advertising in football stadiums and what not, has photos on their site with famous people from the country and automatically you have to pay 200$ or more for the exact same thing you can get at a very good clinic.

Re:store doesn't do anything for depressed scars though, so you need to get re:pair which lands you at 1200 at least per session, and you need, what, 6 sessions? 8200 euros?

If you had actually talked to a dermatologist/clinic about these procedures, instead of just reading online here and there, you would have known that re:pair is a single treatment procedure, just as other brands of fractional/co2 lasers nowadays. 3 of the last 4 dermatologists told me that needing a second session of those is veryrare and you'll get a deal if need be,some discount, but they said the big majority doesn't need a second session, and you'll have to wait6 months to a yearfirst.Obviously it depends on how bad your scars are and how good your skin heals. Again, at most of the clinics here, they present you their cases with every method involed and re:store had not that good/good/very good results from what I've seen with my own eyes. Now, if you think those pictures are photoshopped or whatever, even the cases that didn't have good results imo, then so be it.

Either your dermatologist didn't know what he was talking about, or you got it wrong. The down-time means the amount of time that needs to pass until your skin doesn't look burned, swollen, red etc., that's 10-14 days at the maximum energy level settings (kj) for re:pair, for re:store it's less obviously. After the 14 days from re:pair, you might still notice redness for a week or so, but it's easily coverable. Your skin will continue to regenerate and produce collagen and you will see the best results after 3-6 months, not immediatly, that's what your derm was probably saying.

 

Here's the deal withacnescars: no laser is really going to do all that much for them. Sorry, butacne scarsare very difficult to treat and you are never going to go back to where you want with any laser alone. Even with the best of treatments, you are going to have about 50% improvement and that is withfillerssuch asrestylaneandperlane, which will be doing the heavy lifting.

Prior to havingFraxel, Cool Touch,Fraxel Re:pairand every other laser that has promised to improve acnescarsbut didn't, I performed full faceCO2 laserson patients with acne scars. The results were not all that impressive, despite the fact that patients went through 2 weeks of sheer torture during the recovery phase. That, on top of the price in the $4000 range that made it *seem* like something ought to have happened. Due to this fact, I stopped doing the older, CO2 laser and haven't missed it one bit.

Now, unfortunately, we have a whole new generation of doctors and quasicosmetic surgeons(family practitioners, nurse practitioners, Ob Gyns, etc) who have now purchased these lasers for their medispas and are trying to generate some cash, along with laser companies that are desperate to sell their machines. So, the old concept of treating acne scars with a laser such as Fraxel is once again being trotted out and desperate patients are being duped once more.

The truth is that it does precious little for acne scars and typically not enough to make someone spend the money and recovery time to do the treatment. What I tell patients is that if the money is something that you care about and it is anywhere near a stretch to do the procedure, you don't want to do it for acne scars.Wrinklesare a whole different situation because it does work for these. Acne scars not so much. And the recovery time, if the scars are done correctly with it, is going to be about a week or two along with major downtime and oozing. So, think twice before doing this procedure, despite what the laser companies and many doctors are telling you!

I feel like this discussion is repeating itself, because either you have a reading comprehension problem, or just ignoring fact presented to me by professionals from their experience, after hundreds and hundres of pacients. I've also had dermatologists reinforce the theory that Accutane won't help and diet will and 8 months later, I've found out they were extremely wrong in my case. You are also very biased and exaggerate numbers and facts. Of course there are some risks involved and some people didn't get good results, but that's a small percentage of people, just like with Accutane and permanent side effects. Those bad stories will have a much, much bigger impact than the successful ones. I've also seen cases where re:pair didn't do much, but I've seen a whole lot more where re:pair worked great. Same thing can be told about dermapen/prp/peelings or whatever. You are obviously biased and scared of the potential risks, so you chose to believe what makes you comfortable. Not everybody has an easy case of scarring, which might be fixed with cheaper and safer alternatives and even then, it's totally person dependable. People with tough cases of scarring should discuss with professionals, in order to decide what's best for them, not what worked or not on different people. So good luck to everyone, make sure to post photos when you're done with your sessions.