What?! No. Who the heck is this doctor and how did he get his license.

I have had 5 professional Dermaroller treatments spaced 7 weeks apart (1.5mm) and I have seen a 70% improvement in my scarring.

Have you ever had a treatment? Your skin is barely healed after one week. Roll again on raw skin? No freaking way.

I am getting so frustrated with all the misinformation and outright bullshit that "doctors" are selling.

Sorry for the rant, but this advice is by far the worst I have ever heard a doctor give. Stay clear of them!

I know very little about dermarolling, but think its important to roll lightly or moderately as opposed to aggressively if you were to do it every week.

You wouldn't roll using a 1.5mm device every week. Maybe it'd be okay if you had a roller just for product penetration (0.5mm) but even then once a week is still traumatising to your skin.

This is so confusing. Some say that you should dermaroll with 0,5 mm 3 times a week, the 1 mm once a week and the 1,5 mm every 2 weeks. And then others say you should rest for 6 week between every treatment. So, who should I believe?

If you do your research and understand the science behind collagen/skin remodelling and the needling process then there's no grey area. I am safe in the knowledge that to treat scars you need at least 5 treatments of the 1.5mm done once every 6-8 weeks.

If doing the research is too daunting or isn't your thing then believe the people that have had the treatments and are happy with them.

The thing is that i don't think anyone knows for sure as there is such a difference of opinion. If it was that bad to do it on a weekly basis i don't know why doctors would be recommending it? I've had dermaroller/dermapen treatments but i didn't see any results and i can't help but wonder if maybe it is because they were spaced out so far apart.

That's why i'm going to try the individual needling, rather than risk my whole face i'm just going to concentrate on a couple of scars and do them weekly. If i get good results from that i might progress to dermarolling my whole face but i'm definitely going to err on the side on caution until i know for sure.

Here is an interesting overview of wound healing. When you should dermaroll again depends on what stage is ideal to create an additional wound. I would personally think it would be after full healing has taken place, as increasing stress factors increases the risk of scarring. There is a helpful timeline, which is dependent on the extent of the wound, and some paragraphs at the bottom talk about repair (possible scarring) vs. regeneration (not scarring). I know it's wiki, and not an "official" source, but it's a convenient starting place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wound_healing

I would personally ask your doctor to explain this and why it is best to dermaroll at a certain stage of healing. If he can't answer it then I wouldn't trust him.

If you do your research and understand the science behind collagen/skin remodelling and the needling process then there's no grey area. I am safe in the knowledge that to treat scars you need at least 5 treatments of the 1.5mm done once every 6-8 weeks.

If doing the research is too daunting or isn't your thing then believe the people that have had the treatments and are happy with them.

Since people on the internet claim that they got rid of their scars by doing derma rolling every week you should understand why some people, like me, are confused.

No reason to be cocky about your opinions.

I've heard multiple doctors claim that dermarolling on a weekly basis is necessary for significant improvement. I use my 1.0 dermaroller once a week, fight me.

To the OP - I apologise for hijacking your thread here. This will be my last post.

I've heard multiple doctors claim that dermarolling on a weekly basis is necessary for significant improvement. I use my 1.0 dermaroller once a week, fight me.

I've heard multiple doctors claim that dermarolling on a weekly basis is necessary for significant improvement. I use my 1.0 dermaroller once a week, fight me.

How long have you been doing this and have you seen results?

No big deal, Quirky Fox, and you should be proud of yourself for the "job" that you've been doing to help yourself

I just wanted to say that there are some pretty plausible people online that say that needling several times a week is a good thing. I have no clue what is the right thing, that's why I'm confused. I will start to derma roll this week by the way.

And please keep on giving advice to the rest of us here...it is very beneficial for all of us!

I use this brand to needle weekly by Clearskincare clinics: http://www.clearskincare.com.au/stock/face-roller-skin-needling-0.25mm-CIT-collagen-elastin-derma

The needle is 0.25mm with surgical stainless steel needles. As long as you don't use glycolic peels etc when you're needling weekly, you should be fine. However, I also use a very small baby safety pin (the size of a syringe - which I sterilize under piping hot water), to perform concentrated individual skin needling on scarring/ wrinkles (of course, if you can get your hands on a sterile syringe needle or lancet that would be better!!). And yes, It works, but it takes time and diligence, and you need to use other modalities too like good topicals, a healthy diet, exercise, multivitamins etc...and, so long as you are gentle with your skin and meticulous with hygiene, needling should really help your skin (just wash your needle under piping hot water for a minute or two, air dry, and then place in a clean, dry container in the fridge with your topicals to keep clean & fresh). You can also have 100% tea tree oil on hand if you need extra help with disinfecting an area. HOWEVER, YOU SHOULD NOT NEEDLE YOUR SKIN IF YOU HAVE ACTIVE ACNE. Only needle if your acne/ infection has completetly healed/ ceased. If your skin is fragile, you should not needle (until you've increased the density/ tencile strength of your skin). Your skin needs to be fairly robust for weekly needling. DO NOT USE PEELS OR OTHER AGGRESSIVE SKIN TREATMENTS WHILE NEEDLING!!!

It is advised to use (just a drop or two of) copper peptides and retin A with needling (**IMPORTANT NOTE** - use only a very small amount of retin a - even weekly - and be VERY careful, this topical thins the top layer of skin and the needling can be too aggressive - if you feel your skin is too thinned by using retin a - stop needling and only resume when you have stopped using the retin a for 2 weeks or a month). So don't go overboard with the topicals (remember, less it more). Also, remember to give your skin a week/ month off where you don't use any topicals/ needling to let your skin heal & remodel. You could also get a professional derma rolling session by a reputable dermatologist once a year for a more deeper needling session if required. But most of all, RESEARCH NEEDLING THOROUGHLY SO YOU HAVE MANY DIFFERENT OPINIONS/ PROFESSIONAL ADVICE to base your informed decision.

Lastly, if still in doubt about how to perform needling safely, do not attempt anything until you are confident that you FULLY understand the risks involved with needling and have acquired excellent knowledge on how to perform a skin needling session safely. It is fairly simple, but you must RESEARCH to ensure your needling technique is correct so you don't drag the roller across your skin and mark it. Also, avoid places you don't need the dermaroller or have thin skin (i.e. nose and non-scarred skin). And keep a simple method of counting how many rolls you do and what direction so you don't go overboard i.e do an asterisk in a controlled, gentle fashion and repeat the same direction 3 or 5 times IN ONE DIRECTION (i.e. roll in one direction, then LIFT the roller off the skin & repeat the same direction - don't roll back & forth!) and then change; i.e. left to right 3 or 5 times; up then down 3 or 5 times ; diagonal one way 3 or 5 times, diagonal other way 3 or 5 times. Just be gentle in the beginning and see how you skin reacts to needling after a week. If it looks good and there are no complications, you can continue. But always reassess your skin's progress. It should help your skin and not harm it in any way. Otherwise, stop needling IMMEDIATELY!

Furthermore, don't be aggressive with needling. Needle VERY lightly in the beginning to gage how well your skin responds to it and how fast it heals (and adjust your treatment/ pressure accordingly). It's also helpful to view various youtube videos/ professional demonstration videos to help give you guidance. Once you are confident your skin is improving well after 2 or three months, then you can start adding more pressure. I noticed more improvement when little speckles of blood appeared after skin rolling. But please only use this method if your heals very well and is strong and you've been rolling for at leat 2 or 3 months. You should not hurt yourself while doing this treatment. At home skin needling should not hurt at all, just be a tad "uncomfortable" with the pricking sensation. If it hurts, your being too aggressive and could injure your skin. Take it slow and safe.

Note too what other experienced users like Quirky Fox state. Indeed, certain derma rollers can cause major problems in inexperienced hands, so stick with the well-researched "safe" size needling for personal use and leave the professional length for professionals!

Cheers

aquasea, you write that people should roll in a star pattern. Isn't that something that should be avoided? I also can't see the harm in rolling 3 times back and forth, without lifting the roller. I mean, you have already penetrated the exact location, with the same pressure, with the same needle. But hey, that's my opinion.

Clearly, there are a lot of different techniques in dermarolling with various needle lengths, time between rolling, and a variety of topical applications.

So, just to add more confusions to the mix... my aesthetician does dermarolling with a 1mm needle and does a salicylic acid/retin-a peel in the same session immediately after the rolling. This is all done in a rather large dermatological clinic where there are probably 4-5 dermatologists treating all kinds of skin problems. So this is clearly not a rogue aesthetician. The dermarolling and peels are done in the "day spa" section of the clinic. I was told that the dermarolling allows the peel solutions to enter deeper into the skin and increases their effect about "1 step". They basically use 3 peels. Level 1: A light peel (salicylic acid); Level 2: a medium peel (salicylic acid + retin-a); and 3 level: a strong peel (a stronger salicylic acid + retin-a). So, with dermarolling, the level 2 peel is stepped up a notch and becomes effectively a level 3 peel.

I was very skeptical of this approach at first and so we started very slow. First a rolling session, then 2 weeks later a salicylic acid + retin-a peel (level 2) with NO dermarolling, then 2 weeks later a dermarolling with a light salicylic acid peel (level 1). There have been no adverse reactions to any of these and my skin tolerated it all very well. So at 5 weeks from the 2nd rolling I will have a dermarolling and the salicylic acid/retin-a peel level 2 peel, which will effectively be a level 3 peel.

I would never do any of this on my own initially and it has been a very interesting introduction into the murky world of scar treatment. If all goes well on the next dermarolling + level2 peel, then I will probably have 3 more identical sessions 1 month apart and take a break and evaluate. Topicals, such as Retin-a is recommended as much as your skin tolerates, but only after 5 days from rolling and peeling has finished. For me that is every other day or 2 days on and one day off. TNS growth factor serum is also recommended, but used only after peeling finishes, then daily, or even twice daily if desired. Moisturizer and sunscreen is also required.

To me these peel appear to be very light. The level 2 peel produced little more than "flaking" in most places and very thin peel in some places. I did not even notice any peeling in the level 1 peel with the dermarolling. So, clearly, a "step up" seems to be in order if any scar healing is to occur. My wife has commented that she has noticed some improvement.

Anyway, this is what they are doing in my clinic in northwest ohio. One more method for the books.

Hi John777,

If your treatment is working, then stick with it...just ensure you go slowly and YOU control the frequency of the visits and choose the strength of the peels. Because sometimes clinics are focused on your visits (i.e. payment) than your healing and thus can 'overdo' your skin and damage it. And I know from experince!! So, please go slow and safe and give your skin plenty of time to recover.

For example, my skin was looking great. I was using glycolic peels 35% strength and skin needlng with copper peptides in one session. I was doing this for 8 months without mishap. BUT then I started using retin A/ steiva 0.05% strength and disaster struck! The retin a made my skin texture look really good, but had thinned my skin: so the next time when I rolled and applied the glycolic acid 35% on my skin, it blisted, weeped and scabed and I had 2nd degree burns!!! I should have gone to a hospital, but I treated myself (I'm sceptical of mainstream medicine apart from surgical procedures). I applied evoo + manuka honey + tea tree oil + a little copper peptides (and did concentrated individual skin needling every 2 or 3 days). Then I found out about beta glucan liquid (which I got from New Diirections). It's given to burn victims at hospitals and plastic surgeons to use after dermabrasion/ surgery on their clients etc. It has a 20x growth factor. And within a month, my skin had grown back and my partial thickness skin burns have plumped back up with collagen (this took 2 months). The scars are light now. I can completely cover them with tinted concealer (and hyaluronic acid + moisturizer by New Directions called Aloe Vera + Marine collagen...but note, this is only good for using when you go out, not overnight as it dehydrates your skin because of the vegetable glycerine...stick with natural olis instead to moisturize your skin) and my skin looks fine. The only consolation is that my forehead (ruined by years of using BP) looked much better after the "mishap" and I discovered B3, B5 and Beta glucan as topicals.

Essentially, what I'd like to highlight to you John777 is that peels have the potential to be very beneficial with needling, BUT there is a tipping point. Don't be aggressive with your treatment and don't push the boundaries too hard on achieving great skin the fast way. Because complications can occur and peels have the power to damage your skin. Use it safely and wisely (and stick with very low/ safe strengths i.e. start with 10% for glycolic and work your way up gradually over 6-12 months to 20% or 30% ONLY if you have robust and significantly scarred skin. However, if you're a novice, best to see a VERY reputable dermatologist/ plastic surgeon for peels to begin with and ensure they start at a safe low strength too). Ergo John 777, please ensure you steer the direction/ frequency of your treatments at the spa to minimize risks. Please research your treatments thoroughly and ensure your skin isn't thinned too much so it can take your treatments.

I offer this information to you and others in hope it enlightens you and informs you of the risks involved when using peels/ retin a/ and skin needling. I now will not use Retin A with peels & skin needling. I will stick with Retin A/ b5/ b3/ beta glucan/ copper peptides/ evoo/ tea tree oil etc and needling and only commence glycolic peels at least 3 or 4 months after I have stopped using Retin A/ Steiva A.

~ Peace ~

Aquasea,

WoW! Thank you for sharing your experience, as this is surely to put more perspective into the choices we make on dermarolling, peels and retin-a. As a result of your warning to be cautious, I will be extra careful.

I must admit that I do not know a lot about the peels. That is why initially I wanted to have the salcylic acid + Retin-a peel apart from dermarolling so I could see the effects before I did them jointly. One small step at a time, verifying each change and effects carefully. And that is also why I am having an aesthetician do this in the clinic, because I do not feel comfortable doing peels myself. And I don't think I ever will, because not only is knowledge of the procedure and the chemicals critical, but so is the source of the chemicals. I feel much better allowing physicians make these type of decisions. I do think I will eventually venture into doing the dermarolling myself, perhaps in 6 months.

I also must admit that I know little about the thinning of the epidermis by retin-a. I was thinking that retin-a increased the speed of cell divisions in the skin, and therefore, the result was a thicker and healthier skin.

Thanks for the info, aquasea! How did BP ruin your skin? And what is the difference between BP and Retin-A?

Kind Regards,

Frasier

Yes John777, it is suppose to increase the thickness of the inner skin layer (dermis) by increasing collagen production, but it thins the top layer. Many people report Retin A improves their skin significantly, but others, with more fragile skins, report it does not help their skins at all (as it doesn't increase their skin's collagen production/ thickness/ texture quality). But it seems Retin A is beneficial to more people than not. It certainly has helped the texture of my skin tremendously. I will continue to use it unless I stop seeing benefits.

Also, I think skin rolling maximises Retin A's effectiveness and also helps induce collagen (which may help people with fragile skins using Retin A in the long-run). Everyone needs to be their own advocate and "doctor" and continually self-assess their skin's progress and adjust their treatment accordingly. It's also best to stick with natural, "safe" treatments as far as possible to minimize risks.

Lastly, keep researching your treatments thoroughly and don't be shy about speaking-up for yourself at the clinic. You will then be more empowered and more in control of the treatment used. Of course, it is advisable to see a specialist for your treatments if you are inexperienced, but sometimes they get it wrong too. So never be complacent about your skin's treatment and don't pay heed to the specialist's advice until you've verified it with your own thorough research and/ or sought other professional opinions. And it is always best to research the risks involved with any treatment and consider if they're worth taking, and then proceed slow, steady and as safely as possible.

All the best with your treatments!

Thanks Frasier

I can vouchsafe that BP is ABSOLUTELY terrible longterm!! It can cause cancer and it ruins skin tissue. It also eventually stops working if you haven't treated the underlying cause of your acne. If I had known what it would do to my skin, I would NEVER have used it. In places where my skin has never been touched by BP on my face, it is now smooth and healthy like glass, but my forehead (where I placed BP mostly became after years of usage horribly leathery/ course/ bumpy/ dry/ asphyxiated/ highly pigmented). Also, I have redness/ lots of capillaries around my cheeks and nose that have been the hardest to remedy. It could be rosacea, but I have no acne with it, which makes me think it is just general skin damage (and this is noted in the BP studies as a major side effect).

Basically, by using BP (and other chemical "acne" products), I unwittingly traded my acne for longterm bad textured and very unhealthy skin conducive to scarring. However, if I had just turned to being a healthy vegan earlier (which was what actually stopped my acne 100%), used only natural topicals like Tea tree oil and lavender oil, natural oils and washed my skin with sea salt, I would not be on this board right now. My skin would be acne free and healthy! But lo and behold, although I've conquered acne, I have BP damage and scarring to undo. I try to warn people as much as possible about BP damage on this board, but it's "pushed" here as the no.1 acne product. This is my one BIG criticism about this board.

So, it's taken years, but my skin is finally on the mend. (Also, the glycolic acid "mishap" scars have nearly completely faded which is a major relief...).

At this stage, the Retin A is helping my skin. However, I don't recommend it as an acne solution, only a scarring/ skin texture solution. Instead, people with active acne need to change their lifestyle and eating habits: i.e. they need to make every mouthful nutritious, and they need to stay away from: processed sauces, fake foods, GMOs, corn syrup, gluten, microwaves, fried foods, junk foods, vaccine/ heavy metal/ toxic dyes-gases/ hormone/ pesticide/ diseased/ tortured rotting animals passed as "meat", acne inducing dairy containing puss/ antibiotic/ pesticide etc, sodas, aspartame, MSG, flouride [the chemical kind placed in tap water/ toothpaste] etc.

Instead, to cure acne, eat mostly raw vegan, natural, organic, wholefoods and superfoods and drink fresh veg/ fruit juices/ spring water. You also need light daily exercise, sunlight and a positive attitude. Also, detox and boost your immune system with a daily scoop of superfoods in your juice like: chlorella/ spirulina/ barley grass/ wheat grass. And take a quality multivitamin/ mineral.

Essentially, the natural and wholistic approach to health, wellness and good skin is always the best treatment longterm...

Cheers

PS, FYI Source: http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29555

Study A)

"According to a study I found on PubMed: Yes, Retin-A does cause thinning of the skin.

The study "Effect of myristyl nicotinate on retinoic acid therapy for facial photodamage" from Nov 2007 is based on the hypothesis that skin barrier impairment is a contributor to side-effects that are associated with retinoic acid therapy. Retinoic acid seems to be causing thinning of the upper layers of the skin, stratum corneum.

Analysis of skin biopsies revealed that retinoic acid therapy resulted in stratum corneum thinning of approximately 25 %.

The study shows that myristyl nicotinate (MN), a lipophilic derivative of niacin (as found in f. ex. NIA24) may counteract some of the negative effect of retinoic acid.

These results show that prior and concurrent use of MN can mitigate barrier impairment and improve the tolerability of retinoic acid therapy for facial photo damage without interfering with efficacy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17927576 "

Counterbalanced with this Study B:

"Loss of elastic fibers causes skin wrinkles

in sun-damaged human skin

3. Results

3.1. Correlation between elastic fiber

reduction and wrinkle severity in

chronically sun-damaged facial skin

3.2. Restoration of elastic fibers in

photoaged skin by topical retinoic acid

treatment

3.3. Positive correlation between elastic

fiber regeneration and wrinkle

improvement in RA-treated skin

In this study, we quantified the newly regenerated oxytalan fibers after 24 weeks of RA treatment and this regeneration with wrinkle severity. The topical application of RA reduced wrinkle severity significantly and also increased the lengths, widths, numbers and total areas of tropoelastin- and fibrillin-1-positive oxytalan fibers in photoaged facial skin. Interestingly, we found a strong positive correlation between the lengths of oxytalan fibers regenerated by 24 weeks of topical RA treatment and reduced wrinkle severity in photoaged facial skin. In general, the working model of photoaging (wrinkling)and restoration effect of RA treatment has been resolved by the change of the amount of collagen in dermis [36]. However, our results suggest that disruption of the elastic fiber network can cause skin wrinkling, and that the regeneration of the elastic fiber network by RA reduces wrinkle severity in photoaged skin. Therefore, wrinkle formation may be a composite results of both elastic and collagen fiber disintegration."

i.e. Retin A thins the outer skin layer but should, in theory, thicken the inner skin layer.

By way of testing this theory out i'm going to buy some needles and try single needlng two scars every week for six weeks, then i'm going to leave it for a month let any inflammation die down and assess any results.

hi justmeuk,

have you tried this theory and did you get postive results?

Cheers

By way of testing this theory out i'm going to buy some needles and try single needlng two scars every week for six weeks, then i'm going to leave it for a month let any inflammation die down and assess any results.

hi justmeuk,

have you tried this theory and did you get postive results?

Cheers

No, i started having second thoughts and got worried about possibly making things worse. I've been needled the scars individually but left four weeks between sessions. I've only done it twice so far but i think i can see a subtle difference. I guess it will take me longer to see results doing it every four weeks but hopefully i'll get there in the end.