It really depends. You can get it done now so you will have beautiful skin, but there is a chance you will end up with scarring once you come off of BC. Are you willing to do it twice? There is also a chance you won't get acne.

Really it comes down to whether you think your acne will come back or not. If you are convinced it will come back, might as well wait, but you could start something like Retin-a right now to help prevent it.... good luck either way!

You can get it done now so you will have beautiful skin, but there is a chance you will end up with scarring once you come off of BC. Are you willing to do it twice?

I've had one plastic-surgery consult, during which the doctor recommended Rejuvaderm followed by non-ablative laser for my scarring. But he told me to expect 10-20% improvement from a single laser resurfacing treatment, which indicates that I'd need more than one. Heck, it seems like nearly anyone would require more than one treatment from non-ablative laser resurfacing based on such predicted results.

There is also a chance you won't get acne.

True. But after the previous experience, I'm more knee-jerk leery than not. I'm also especially concerned because 99% of my scarring occurred just this past summer--insult to injury, considering that I've had acne since age 12.

...It comes down to whether you think your acne will come back or not. If you are convinced it will come back, might as well wait, but you could start something like Retin-a right now to help prevent it.... good luck either way!

Could hormone-driven acne be prevented by the use of a retinoid? I've long thought that if hormones cause the problem--rather than just malfunctioning pores--then acne will develop no matter how invasive/potent a topical is used.

My question is premature, as I don't know what type(s) of scar revision would be best for me. Still, here's the scoop: I've been taking BC pills for 14 years. I once stopped taking the Pill for 9 months and went back on it due to the return of nodular/cystic acne, as well as the greatest oil explosion that I've ever experienced. (On the plus side, my migraines became nearly non-existent.)

I'm now 36 and must get off of the Pill due to its inherent health risks. But, psychologically, I'm dreading the breakouts that I likely will experience--especially any possible scarring that I may develop. And, yet, I'm tempted to seek scar revision for my current scars prior to stopping the Pill.

Do you think that it makes more sense to get scar revision prior to a predicted (and likely long-ongoing) breakout of nodular/cystic acne, or to stop taking the Pill first and wait for any additional scarring that may develop before going for scar revision?

Thank you,

PI

 

I understand what you're going through. Sadly I can't take the pill (blot clots in my lungs after one month!) but I did take antibiotics for a long time that helped greatly. Having to come off them was tough as, like you, I was worried about my acne coming back... and it did! Ten-fold! My biggest mistake what that I relied solely on the antibiotics to keep me clear. I had no skin care regime, stupid of me.

My acne is hormonal, no question. I used to get cystic acne under my jaw-line and in my cheeks. After stopping all oral medication I slowly crawled my way back to clear skin using topicals. I went on the Obagi range of acne clearing lotions and potions and a series of microdermabrasions and while they were not cheap, they were a miracle! I got my acne under control in three months. I am now on a different range of products but that's irrelevant to the discussion at this point. I still get the odd spot or cluster of pimples but nothing compared to what it was like.

The scar revision part is heart-breaking because on one hand you want to treat the scarring you've got, and on the other there might be no point until you get your skin under control first. I know you said you want to do it before another breakout etc but think of it this way, it's going to take months (possibly years) for you to achieve the results you want. How soon do you want to be off the pill for your other health concerns? And, if you do improve your scarring to the point where you're happy and then get off the pill you risk your acne coming back to undo all your hard work.

As a side, if you do get your acne back after stopping the pill most treatment options are invasive and active acne is just an added risk. So if this happens act quickly! I opted to control my breakouts and get my skin healthy before embarking on any scar treatments. I'm glad I did because it meant that I could concentrate on my scars without having to stress over active acne complicating things.

It's tough, but if I were you I would first get into a fantastic skin care regime (if you don't have one already), get off the pill and see how you go. Battle any acne that comes up and then once you're satisfied that you've got it under control, attack those scars! Try not to stress, as stress adds to our hormonal imbalances and makes things worse.

Remember that there are other things out there now to help with active acne, even hormonal. There are lasers and LED's that target acne (not scarring), microdermabrasion is great for keeping the skin clean and to help prevent clogged pores. Retin-A is good yes but by itself is harsh and can cause more breakouts and a lot of dryness. The Obagi range is beautiful as it has vitamin A in it but the way in which it is released into your skin is more controlled and is more effective.

Lastly, if I had a time machine I would go back and not let a laser touch my face. I had fractionated non-ablative treatments, 5 in total (Fraxel Re:Store). While I had no long term problems the downtime was so miserable I literally cried myself to sleep every night for two weeks post treatment. I broke out in so much cystic acne that I thought I'd never get it back under control and my skin is still red almost one full year after the last session. But to cut a long, long story short in the 5 treatments I had I think I saw a total improvement of around 20-30%. Good, but not worth the thousands I paid. I suggest looking into Dermarolling and maybe combine that with a Hyaluronic Acid based filler (yes, like Restylane!).

Don't lose hope! xx

QuirkyFox - Which Obagi products do you recommend?

QuirkyFox - Which Obagi products do you recommend?

 

I put all my trust in the Obagi Clenziderm range. It had a cleanser, a toner, an acne serum and a light moisturiser. I was very dry for the first 2 weeks of using it but after that the results were amazing. I think Obagi may have changed his range somewhat now. As I understand it the focus with their products now is vitamin A which is awesome. I personally haven't tried the new range but I wouldn't hesitate in giving it a go.

Actually, I just checked and you may still be able to get the products I used: http://www.obagi.com/patients/product-line/clenziderm-md

there's always the chance that you'll get acne where you revised your scars. are you willing to take that risk?

there's always the chance that you'll get acne where you revised your scars. are you willing to take that risk?

Oh, man... The more I look into the issue of scar revision, the more risky it seems. Ugh...

At this point in time, I'm not feeling like much of a risk taker--especially in terms of spending money for one or more procedures that could lead to increased breakouts and scarring.

My acne is hormonal, no question. I used to get cystic acne under my jaw-line and in my cheeks. After stopping all oral medication I slowly crawled my way back to clear skin using topicals. I went on the Obagi range of acne clearing lotions and potions and a series of microdermabrasions and while they were not cheap, they were a miracle! I got my acne under control in three months.

I'm curious to know: how bad did your acne get once you stopped taking antibiotics? And did you get more indented scarring from that particular 3-month breakout period?

Also, I thought that microdermabrasion could lead to increased breakouts. Am I mistaken, or were you just lucky that the treatments didn't have that unwanted side effect for you?

The scar revision part is heart-breaking because on one hand you want to treat the scarring you've got, and on the other there might be no point until you get your skin under control first. I know you said you want to do it before another breakout etc but think of it this way, it's going to take months (possibly years) for you to achieve the results you want. How soon do you want to be off the pill for your other health concerns? And, if you do improve your scarring to the point where you're happy and then get off the pill you risk your acne coming back to undo all your hard work.

I'd like to stop the BC pill after talking to my ob-gyn and physician's (derm.'s) asst. about a possible plan of action to use, if my face were to go bonkers again after stopping the pill. (I see my ob-gyn early next month and hope/plan to stop the pill very shortly thereafter--so soon. But knowing how my skin reacted the previous time that I stopped the pill, I'm still very leery. Still, I think that I'd be less leery if not for the scarring that I've developed in the last 4-5 months. For 25 years I've had acne and managed to only have two scars--one of them unnoticeable to people--until age 36, when 99% of my current scars developed. It's insult to injury.

You're right, though: spending big money to improve my skin's appearance only to possibly undo the work seems far too risky.

As a side, if you do get your acne back after stopping the pill most treatment options are invasive and active acne is just an added risk. So if this happens act quickly! I opted to control my breakouts and get my skin healthy before embarking on any scar treatments. I'm glad I did because it meant that I could concentrate on my scars without having to stress over active acne complicating things.

It's tough, but if I were you I would first get into a fantastic skin care regime (if you don't have one already), get off the pill and see how you go. Battle any acne that comes up and then once you're satisfied that you've got it under control, attack those scars! Try not to stress, as stress adds to our hormonal imbalances and makes things worse.

My quandary, though, is that I won't be able to afford regular microdermabrasion treatments, especially now that my husband's school loans start coming due at the end of this month. Other than keeping a topical treatment on my skin 24/7 and taking certain supplements, I don't know what else I could do for myself if bad breakouts were to occur. Even going to the derm.'s office for Cortisone injections wouldn't be a weekly option for me, although I would do so to take care of any especially large/deep breakouts.

I wish there were a way to prevent myself from stressing over breakouts, but I've yet to discover it. My acne has been under relative control for a number of years, so the recent breakout that caused 99% of my scarring really undermined my confidence.

Remember that there are other things out there now to help with active acne, even hormonal. There are lasers and LED's that target acne (not scarring), microdermabrasion is great for keeping the skin clean and to help prevent clogged pores. Retin-A is good yes but by itself is harsh and can cause more breakouts and a lot of dryness. The Obagi range is beautiful as it has vitamin A in it but the way in which it is released into your skin is more controlled and is more effective.

I wouldn't be able to afford regular laser/LED and microdermabrasion treatment. (My husband's school loans will add the equivalent to another mortgage to our monthly bills. Oy...) For some reason, I have a feeling that Obagi is a pricey skin treatment line, since I see that it's only carried by derms. Am I correct?

...If I had a time machine I would go back and not let a laser touch my face. I had fractionated non-ablative treatments, 5 in total (Fraxel Re:Store). While I had no long term problems the downtime was so miserable I literally cried myself to sleep every night for two weeks post treatment. I broke out in so much cystic acne that I thought I'd never get it back under control and my skin is still red almost one full year after the last session. But to cut a long, long story short in the 5 treatments I had I think I saw a total improvement of around 20-30%. Good, but not worth the thousands I paid. I suggest looking into Dermarolling and maybe combine that with a Hyaluronic Acid based filler (yes, like Restylane!).

I am so sorry that so many laser treatments had such little effect for you. I'm now of the impression that it's not highly effective for most people's acne scars. (I notice that plastic surgeons and derms. who offer Fraxel Re:Store don't show before/after photos of acne-scar patients; I'm guessing that's because the results aren't all that stellar.)

If I may ask, how extensive is/was your indented scarring? That is, what types of scars do/did you have, and what areas of your face are/were scarred? Did you find that laser treatment at least eradicated, or nearly so, your most superficial of scars?

One more question (sorry!): when your bad cystic breakouts occurred--after stopping antibiotics and after laser treatments--did you find a way to cover up your acne in order to face the world, or did you go makeup free?

Thank you,

PI

I'm curious to know: how bad did your acne get once you stopped taking antibiotics? And did you get more indented scarring from that particular 3-month breakout period?

Also, I thought that microdermabrasion could lead to increased breakouts. Am I mistaken, or were you just lucky that the treatments didn't have that unwanted side effect for you?

My acne came back pretty badly but it was a bit different in that I saw more cystic acne and less whitehead-type acne. It mostly came back under my jaw line and down my neck a little, plus the odd spot on my cheeks. I don't think I got any further scarring from those three months but it is possible I guess. I think what caused my scarring was more the prolonged acne lesions from my teenage/tween years.

Microdermabrasion is one of those things that works for some and not others. Personally it was great for me because the products I was using caused a bit of dryness and the microderm was the only thing that helped with that. The treatments were done mildly with the beautician using her foot pedal rather than the auto-settings which are intended for a deep clean. So I guess it helps to work with the person doing the treatment. It does nothing for scarring though, unfortunately.

I'd like to stop the BC pill after talking to my ob-gyn and physician's (derm.'s) asst. about a possible plan of action to use, if my face were to go bonkers again after stopping the pill. (I see my ob-gyn early next month and hope/plan to stop the pill very shortly thereafter--so soon. But knowing how my skin reacted the previous time that I stopped the pill, I'm still very leery. Still, I think that I'd be less leery if not for the scarring that I've developed in the last 4-5 months. For 25 years I've had acne and managed to only have two scars--one of them unnoticeable to people--until age 36, when 99% of my current scars developed. It's insult to injury.

You're right, though: spending big money to improve my skin's appearance only to possibly undo the work seems far too risky.

I think you're doing the right thing by asking questions now and devising an action plan, very smart! I think it took approx a month after stopping antibiotics before I realised that my acne was getting out of hand. By that time it took me a bit of working out to then treat it so I was in a bad position before I started my topicals. On the other hand I have learnt a lot about the kinds of things that should be put on your skin!

Definitely insult to injury for you but there is hope yet. I would be looking at starting a skin care regime prior to coming off the BC so that the products are active in your skin the moment you take your last pill. I hope your derm's and doctors can give you more advice here too.

My quandary, though, is that I won't be able to afford regular microdermabrasion treatments, especially now that my husband's school loans start coming due at the end of this month. Other than keeping a topical treatment on my skin 24/7 and taking certain supplements, I don't know what else I could do for myself if bad breakouts were to occur. Even going to the derm.'s office for Cortisone injections wouldn't be a weekly option for me, although I would do so to take care of any especially large/deep breakouts.

I wish there were a way to prevent myself from stressing over breakouts, but I've yet to discover it. My acne has been under relative control for a number of years, so the recent breakout that caused 99% of my scarring really undermined my confidence.

I know how you feel. Sometimes I get so very tired of my morning and evening skin care routine that I wonder if it worth it in the end... but then I look back on where I have come from and I know that there is no going back, no matter what the cost. There is something on my skin 24 hours a day, the only respite my skin gets from the barrage of lotions is when I'm in the shower! My confidence fluctuates as much as my mood does. Since my acne is hormonal stress is deadly.

A good contingency plan that won't break the budget? Sulphur! Sounds crazy but I have been saved by it numerous times now. It's not expensive and there are many different kinds you can get. The one I use is left on overnight and is the last thing I put on my skin. Smells err... different, but I don't put it all over my face. Just my active spots. If you decide to try it avoid any products that have fragrance in them as that may irritate your skin. The one I use is yellow and fluffy, like a mouse. Not sure of the name of it though as I get it fresh in unmarked pots from my skin care technician. Can find out for you though! Costs me around $20 and lasts for a good month or two.

The other thing that is amazing... pumpkin peels! Cheaper than a microdermabrasion at around $80(AU) and I only ever have maybe one every two months. In fact I rarely have microdermabrasions now as the products I'm putting on my face are so good and these peels are yum. I'd say there are home-kits you could get but I haven't looked into that. Much prefer to have it done professionally.

I wouldn't be able to afford regular laser/LED and microdermabrasion treatment. (My husband's school loans will add the equivalent to another mortgage to our monthly bills. Oy...) For some reason, I have a feeling that Obagi is a pricey skin treatment line, since I see that it's only carried by derms. Am I correct?

Yes, Obagi was once available online but since they altered the products they are very strict in who can sell it, and for good reason really. I think the Obagi set me back around $200 every three months. So yes, expensive but worth every penny because it worked so well. I don't use anything Obagi any more though.

All my products are by Dermaquest now. Prices are still high but the bottles are bigger and with the results I'm seeing (in conjunction with the Dermaroller) I would go without food just to pay for it, hehe. But really, in the grand scheme of things $50 for a bottle of cleanser that lasts me 3-4 months isn't that bad. The products that do set me back are the serums (A, B and C) but I feel they're the best on the market so again, quality wise I'm paying for what they're worth.

My skin care range has gone through stages, up, up and up. From the crap that is ProActiv, then to Obagi and now Dermaquest. There's a huge difference between stage 1 and stage 3.

I am so sorry that so many laser treatments had such little effect for you. I'm now of the impression that it's not highly effective for most people's acne scars. (I notice that plastic surgeons and derms. who offer Fraxel Re:Store don't show before/after photos of acne-scar patients; I'm guessing that's because the results aren't all that stellar.)

Lesson learned the hard way. I did see results, they just weren't worth what I paid. The Fraxel Re:Store has too much hype, the fully ablative lasers should be the ones being focused on for acne scarring but they're also the lasers with the most downtime/risks and so are not as appealing to consumers. Doctors don't help when they're out for your money either. They're not all like that but that's not the point.

Plus, I have since learned that lasers that cause necrosis (like the Re:Store) do not induce collagen but rather cause your body to create more scar tissue. It just happens that this scar tissue is laid evenly and thus improves the appearance of your skin; but is this really a good thing? I'm not sure. Compare this to something like the Dermaroller that dramatically causes your body to create more collagen and fibroblasts and there's no competition really. Plus, no downtime with the Dermaroller vs two weeks of utter, acne fuelled Hell with Fraxel Re:Store. My insult to injury? Almost a year after my final Fraxel treatment and my skin still has a red hue. Uncool.

If I may ask, how extensive is/was your indented scarring? That is, what types of scars do/did you have, and what areas of your face are/were scarred? Did you find that laser treatment at least eradicated, or nearly so, your most superficial of scars?

My forehead, temples, nose and chin were 99% spared from scarring. A little uneven in terms of pore size but nothing that bothers me. My cheeks are where the action is at! Using the 4-step grading system I started with mostly grade 3 with a few grade 4 scars thrown in for fun. I have mostly rolling scars and a few box-car scars. No ice-pick.

The box-car scars were mostly quite shallow while the rolling scars were scary. In particular I had a deep double rolling scar on my left cheek. By double I mean that it was like two thick lines running parallel to each other. This is the scar that bothers me the most.

After Fraxel I think my box-car scars were much better but my rolling scars were still there in full swing. The Dermaroller has been so exciting for me because I can see the changes in my skin and this rolling scar is becoming much less noticeable. I would rate my overall level of scarring to now be in the grade 1-2 range with this rolling scar still being quite visible but nothing to what it was. It used to cast the most hideous of shadow no matter what light I was in but now I can actually look in the mirror in the toilets at work without wanting to vomit from anxiety.

The grading system: http://www.laserclinics.com.au/blog/acne-and-acne-scarring/10-ways-to-classify-your-acne-scars.html

One more question (sorry!): when your bad cystic breakouts occurred--after stopping antibiotics and after laser treatments--did you find a way to cover up your acne in order to face the world, or did you go makeup free?

Don't apologise! Look at what I've just typed to you! I'm sorry!

Straight after my laser sessions I didn't put any make-up on my face for at least three weeks (two weeks were spent in hiding so that was okay). I wanted to let my skin recover without having to take make-up off every night. But, after this period I went back to putting make-up on. I use mineral make-up and I love it. I can't use liquid foundation because it looks terrible. It gets stuck in my face fuzz, clogs my pores, makes my acne bumps look like mountains and just overall feels thick and feral.

The mineral make-up I started with was Bare Escentuals and I now use Priori Coffeeberry Perfecting Minerals. The great thing about both of these foundations is that I can put it on straight after my morning sunscreen and it doesn't get cloggy or sticky. It's really easy to use too; just grab a kabuki brush and buff it into your skin. With the Priori less is more as the coverage is great, which is why I switched to it. But basically, any good quality mineral make-up is better than liquid foundation for acne prone skin.

Oh! One thing that I cannot live without is "face paper". My skin gets oily during the day (less now after Dermarolling has made my pores smaller) and rather than carrying around my make-up all day I use "face paper" by Fancl. I get them on eBay for around $10 for 200 sheets. It's basically blotting paper and sucks the oil right off my face and into the bin! Also helps prevent my acne breakouts.

I get carried away when I type so I'm so very sorry for the speil. I'm just finding myself becoming more passionate about this kind of thing as time goes on.

xx

Fox

Microdermabrasion is one of those things that works for some and not others. Personally it was great for me because the products I was using caused a bit of dryness and the microderm was the only thing that helped with that. The treatments were done mildly with the beautician using her foot pedal rather than the auto-settings which are intended for a deep clean.

I had several microdermabrasion treatments done by a beautician about 12 years ago in preparation for my wedding day. I did like how smooth my face felt afterward, though my skin, sensitive as it is, was a bit more red/blotchy for several days after each treatment. But I'll take flat/red/blotchy skin over cysts and nodules any day. But, for now, the price of microdermabrasion treatments is out of my reach with additional expenses coming down the pipeline. *sigh*

I think it took approx a month after stopping antibiotics before I realised that my acne was getting out of hand. By that time it took me a bit of working out to then treat it so I was in a bad position before I started my topicals. On the other hand I have learnt a lot about the kinds of things that should be put on your skin!

I would be looking at starting a skin care regime prior to coming off the BC so that the products are active in your skin the moment you take your last pill. I hope your derm's and doctors can give you more advice here too.

That was my big mistake, too: letting my skin get out of control for too long before taking action. Believe it or not, the 99% of my scarring that occurred recently isn't from cysts/nodules. How I wish I'd been taking better care of my skin at the time--and that I had known that my skin my scar from inflamed (nearly flat) acne lesions.

I already know that my derm. (physician's) asst. push antibiotics, as she told me as much several months ago when I asked about a plan of action for when I stop taking BC. (She also mentioned Accutane, but I won't put my body through that hell--especially since I had a bad reaction the one time I tried taking it years ago.) I have a feeling that many, if not most, derms./derm. assts. would rely solely on antibiotics, which is bad because I have IBS; so I really shouldn't contribute to a greater imbalance of my digestive system by taking more antibiotics than I already have in the past.

A good contingency plan that won't break the budget? Sulphur!

I know all about the wonders of sulfur. In fact, I attribute my previous lack of scarring to the fact that I used a sulfur-based product on my face daily for many years, until it was discontinued (at least in the U.S.). The product was Sulfacet-R, which I eventually had to replace with a generic version when Sulfacet-R went bye-bye in the U.S. Sadly, the generic version was also discontinued.

Currently, I use two products that cost $10 each (with insurance coverage). One is a cream containing sodium sulfacetamide and sulfer; the other contains sodium sulfacetamide only and dries clear, which is great. Both products last several months per script, which makes them dirt cheap. But would they be enough to prevent me from having more severe breakouts after stopping BC? I have my doubts, since Sulfacet-R didn't prevent them when I last stopped taking BC for 9 months.

The other thing that is amazing... pumpkin peels! Cheaper than a microdermabrasion at around $80(AU) and I only ever have maybe one every two months. In fact I rarely have microdermabrasions now as the products I'm putting on my face are so good and these peels are yum.

I've heard of pumpkin peels, which sound really nice--and yummy-smelling. Currently, I'm using the much less glamorous apple-cider vinegar 1-2 times daily to balance my skin's pH, soften my skin, and reduce PIH. Granted, it smells like dirty gym socks, as one forum member pointed out. I would much prefer to have semi-regular pumpkin peels. LOL

I have since learned that lasers that cause necrosis (like the Re:Store) do not induce collagen but rather cause your body to create more scar tissue. It just happens that this scar tissue is laid evenly and thus improves the appearance of your skin; but is this really a good thing? I'm not sure. Compare this to something like the Dermaroller that dramatically causes your body to create more collagen and fibroblasts and there's no competition really.

That a very interesting detail about Re:Store--one that I suspect no plastic surgeon ever would tell a patient. (Can you imagine it? "I'm going to improve your scarring by causing more scarring." LOL)

Okay, now for the Dermarolling-related questions.

1) Do you perform your own Dermarolling procedures? I've heard it said that it should only be done by a medical-care pro. Yet I recall one forum member saying that s/he has skin damage due to a doctor performing the process incorrectly, or so it would seem based on the negative side effects s/he is experiencing.

2) If you do the procedure yourself, what Dermarolling product/kit did you purchase?

3) I've heard people discussing the use of copper peptides (CPs) along with Dermarolling. (I know squat about CPs.) Are they contained in the A/B/C serums that you currently use?

4) Are CPs absolutely required for use with Dermarolling, or are there other products that can help reduce scarring in combination with Dermarolling?

After Fraxel I think my box-car scars were much better but my rolling scars were still there in full swing. The Dermaroller has been so exciting for me because I can see the changes in my skin and this rolling scar is becoming much less noticeable. I would rate my overall level of scarring to now be in the grade 1-2 range with this rolling scar still being quite visible but nothing to what it was.

You're really getting me interested in the idea of trying Dermarolling--though, as I've mentioned, some people warn against the pitfalls of it, which, yes, concern me.

The mineral make-up I started with was Bare Escentuals and I now use Priori Coffeeberry Perfecting Minerals. The great thing about both of these foundations is that I can put it on straight after my morning sunscreen and it doesn't get cloggy or sticky. It's really easy to use too; just grab a kabuki brush and buff it into your skin. With the Priori less is more as the coverage is great, which is why I switched to it. But basically, any good quality mineral make-up is better than liquid foundation for acne prone skin.

I read some reviews of Priori's mineral makeup on Makeupalley.com. One woman notes that it does nothing to help hide acne scars. (I assume that she's using the word correctly--i.e., that she's talking about damaged/indented skin.) Is it your experience that mineral makeup hides or may enhance the appearance of your scars?

I definitely need a makeup plan of action before stopping the BC pills. I am certain that the liquid makeup that my skin currently tolerates will not be an option when my hormones start fluctuating wildly.

A good contingency plan that won't break the budget? Sulphur! ...The one I use is yellow and fluffy, like a mouse. Not sure of the name of it though as I get it fresh in unmarked pots from my skin care technician. Can find out for you though! Costs me around $20 and lasts for a good month or two.

I am curious to know the name of the sulfur-based cream that your skin-care technician sells. In the meantime, I'd like to tell you more about much less pricey sulfur-based products.

The first one, which you may have heard people rave about on this forum, is De La Cruz Sulfur Ointment (see here: http://www.walgreens...2872361-product ). I got it for less than $5 (US). If you only use it for spot treatment, you'd wind up replacing it before you ever run out of it. (Since it's only meant to be left on the skin for about 10 minutes, I suspect that most people use it for spot-treatment only; so, a jar of it should last most people to the point that it must be pitched due to freshness/effectiveness issues.)

The other (prescription) product is by Perrigo and is simply called Sodium Sulfacetamide 10% and Sulfur 5% Lotion (see here: http://www.perrigo.c...duct.aspx?ID=71 ). I don't know how insurance and such works in AU, but with insurance, I pay only $10 for a 60-gram tube. (Why the company lists the product by weight rather than by volume I cannot say. Heh...)

And, last but not least, there's the generic version of Klaron, also made by Perrigo (see here: http://www.perrigo.c...uct.aspx?ID=197 ). It's pretty much odorless and dries clear. Also, it comes in a 4-oz. bottle and, so, will last for many months. (This is the other script that costs me $10 with my insurance coverage.)

PI

QuirkyFox - Why do you think that the derma-roller creates "normal" collagen vs. the scar collagen the Restore creates? Isn't it just inducing pinpoint damage like the Restore without the heat of the laser? Not sure why one would heal via creation of scar tissue and one wouldn't. Do you know the mechanism behind the healing action with the derma-roller?

QuirkyFox - Why do you think that the derma-roller creates "normal" collagen vs. the scar collagen the Restore creates? Isn't it just inducing pinpoint damage like the Restore without the heat of the laser? Not sure why one would heal via creation of scar tissue and one wouldn't. Do you know the mechanism behind the healing action with the derma-roller?

 

Good question re Fraxel! I will be perfectly honest and say that when I had my Fraxel Re:Store sessions this was the information given to me by the doctor who performed my treatments. He advised that the laser stimulates scar tissue in such a way that it is "stacked" evenly under the skin, thus making the outermost appearance better. In fact I have an email from his office detailing just that! After your question I thought heck, I've never even verified this bugger's story! So, I just did some research. Thank you for pulling me up on it!

Fraxel Re:Store causes necrotic micro-thermal zones in your skin. This then leads to the necrotic tissue exfoliating over the weeks post treatment. All the studies I have just read indicate that there is collagen stimulation, and as I only have that doctor's word otherwise, I stand corrected on the collagen front. The damage mechanism however, is completely different to the Dermaroller. Fraxel does not just cause pin point damage, whole columns of skin (albeit tiny) are vaporised by the laser whereas no tissue is lost via the Dermaroller. Naturally, by "tissue loss" I'm not talking about anything permanent.

The studies done on the original Dermaroller have shown that they are not 100% sure about why the device works so well. I for one would love to know! But it all seems to point to natural means of prompting the body to create collagen. Rather than me trying to explain it, here's a direct extract from the original Dermaroller website (www.dermaroller.de):

"In micro-needling we simply utilise the body self-healing mechanisms. It reacts to the intrusion of micro-needles like it would react to any other skin penetrating object. But the difference is the size of the object - the micro-needle. The intrusion of tiny surgical needles (provided they are professionally designed) is sensed by skin nerve receptors as an injury stimulus. But the needles are so fine and thin that tissue damage is unlikely. The skin integrity actually stays intact. However, this œnerve-stimulus, transported by electrical signals, triggers the cascade of the healing process. Skin cells, in a radius of 1 to 2 mm around the pricking channel, release growth signals to undifferentiated cells. These signals in return stimulate the proliferation of new cells, e.g. fibroblasts to transform into collagen- and elastin fibres. The task of fibroblasts is, to migrate to the point of intrusion for wound closure. And here comes the trick: The pricking channels, caused by the micro-needles, close very quickly and no tissue lesion can be detected, and none has to be repaired. The transformation for wound repair cells (e.g. fibroblasts and others) is an automatic process “ like a one-way road. Their final mission is to transform into collagen fibres. They integrate into the existing collagen formation in the upper dermis. This new fibre formation “ in terms of many hundred percent - thickens the skin and fills former atrophic scars. As single needle prick is not worth mentioning. But if thousands of microscopic small needle-pricks are set, the induced collagen formation becomes confluent and forms a new collagen layer. This body reaction is calledneo-collagenesis."

Just from personal experience I have seen more results with 3 Dermaroller sessions than I have with 5 Fraxel Re:Store sessions. The added risk for Fraxel is that it can cause pigmentation changes, sun sensitivity etc. Those risks do not exist with the Dermaroller... plus there's that downtime thing and the cost!

I had several microdermabrasion treatments done by a beautician about 12 years ago in preparation for my wedding day. I did like how smooth my face felt afterward, though my skin, sensitive as it is, was a bit more red/blotchy for several days after each treatment. But I'll take flat/red/blotchy skin over cysts and nodules any day. But, for now, the price of microdermabrasion treatments is out of my reach with additional expenses coming down the pipeline. *sigh*

It is a little crazy how much they charge for a microdermabrasion. I have no idea how much the machines cost to run... but it seems that here in Australia the general cost is around $150. I'm actually really glad that I don't need to have them as often any more as I'd prefer to spend this money on acne scar treatments. Maybe a once in 6 month treatment?

That was my big mistake, too: letting my skin get out of control for too long before taking action. Believe it or not, the 99% of my scarring that occurred recently isn't from cysts/nodules. How I wish I'd been taking better care of my skin at the time--and that I had known that my skin my scar from inflamed (nearly flat) acne lesions.

I already know that my derm. (physician's) asst. push antibiotics, as she told me as much several months ago when I asked about a plan of action for when I stop taking BC. (She also mentioned Accutane, but I won't put my body through that hell--especially since I had a bad reaction the one time I tried taking it years ago.) I have a feeling that many, if not most, derms./derm. assts. would rely solely on antibiotics, which is bad because I have IBS; so I really shouldn't contribute to a greater imbalance of my digestive system by taking more antibiotics than I already have in the past.

There's always something else to add to the mix isn't there? I can relate to your intolerance for antibiotics, with IBS, in that I can't take the birth control pill as it gives me blood clots! Unfair! I had 15 blood clots in my lungs exactly two months after starting the pill. Scary and uncool. Accutane should be a last resort. I was on that when I was a teen and it was horrible. I know they control the dosage a lot better now though, which is something positive I guess.

I know all about the wonders of sulfur. In fact, I attribute my previous lack of scarring to the fact that I used a sulfur-based product on my face daily for many years, until it was discontinued (at least in the U.S.). The product was Sulfacet-R, which I eventually had to replace with a generic version when Sulfacet-R went bye-bye in the U.S. Sadly, the generic version was also discontinued.

Currently, I use two products that cost $10 each (with insurance coverage). One is a cream containing sodium sulfacetamide and sulfer; the other contains sodium sulfacetamide only and dries clear, which is great. Both products last several months per script, which makes them dirt cheap. But would they be enough to prevent me from having more severe breakouts after stopping BC? I have my doubts, since Sulfacet-R didn't prevent them when I last stopped taking BC for 9 months.

I am curious to know the name of the sulfur-based cream that your skin-care technician sells. In the meantime, I'd like to tell you more about much less pricey sulfur-based products.

The first one, which you may have heard people rave about on this forum, is De La Cruz Sulfur Ointment (see here: http://www.walgreens...2872361-product ). I got it for less than $5 (US). If you only use it for spot treatment, you'd wind up replacing it before you ever run out of it. (Since it's only meant to be left on the skin for about 10 minutes, I suspect that most people use it for spot-treatment only; so, a jar of it should last most people to the point that it must be pitched due to freshness/effectiveness issues.)

The other (prescription) product is by Perrigo and is simply called Sodium Sulfacetamide 10% and Sulfur 5% Lotion (see here: http://www.perrigo.c...duct.aspx?ID=71 ). I don't know how insurance and such works in AU, but with insurance, I pay only $10 for a 60-gram tube. (Why the company lists the product by weight rather than by volume I cannot say. Heh...)

And, last but not least, there's the generic version of Klaron, also made by Perrigo (see here: http://www.perrigo.c...uct.aspx?ID=197 ). It's pretty much odorless and dries clear. Also, it comes in a 4-oz. bottle and, so, will last for many months. (This is the other script that costs me $10 with my insurance coverage.)

PI

Thanks for the information! I haven't done a huge amount of research on sulphur but I do love the idea that there are still natural things out there that can help with skin problems. An extra thank you for the links! I absolutely love learning about these kinds of things. This kind of thing isn't covered by insurance here (that I know of) but you don't need a script to get it either. Most of it is over the counter or at a beautician.

I haven't tried the products that are only meant to be left on for 10 minutes. This one I'm using is an overnight deal. Time to experiment I think!

I've heard of pumpkin peels, which sound really nice--and yummy-smelling. Currently, I'm using the much less glamorous apple-cider vinegar 1-2 times daily to balance my skin's pH, soften my skin, and reduce PIH. Granted, it smells like dirty gym socks, as one forum member pointed out. I would much prefer to have semi-regular pumpkin peels. LOL

Like socks?! Hehe, the things we do for our skin! Thing is, if it works for you it wouldn't matter what it smelt like. It's odd because when I think of apple-cider vinegar I think of something fruity. I'll have to smell this stuff for myself!

That a very interesting detail about Re:Store--one that I suspect no plastic surgeon ever would tell a patient. (Can you imagine it? "I'm going to improve your scarring by causing more scarring." LOL)

Michi pulled me up on this, and I'm glad because I always felt this was WRONG! Even when my doctor told me about it in detail I was a little weirded out by it. I replied to Michi's post so I won't re-post it again.

Okay, now for the Dermarolling-related questions.

1) Do you perform your own Dermarolling procedures? I've heard it said that it should only be done by a medical-care pro. Yet I recall one forum member saying that s/he has skin damage due to a doctor performing the process incorrectly, or so it would seem based on the negative side effects s/he is experiencing.

2) If you do the procedure yourself, what Dermarolling product/kit did you purchase?

3) I've heard people discussing the use of copper peptides (CPs) along with Dermarolling. (I know squat about CPs.) Are they contained in the A/B/C serums that you currently use?

4) Are CPs absolutely required for use with Dermarolling, or are there other products that can help reduce scarring in combination with Dermarolling?

1: No! The thought of home treatments scares the heck out of me. When I was researching it I wanted to go right to the beginning to the device that started it all and to the device that the majority of studies have been performed on. The word Dermaroller is actually a registered trademark for the device as per www.dermaroller.de and I have no idea why there are no court cases involving other companies who market their devices with the same name. In Australia the original Dermaroller is the only device listed on the TGA (similar to your FDA). Yes... I looked it up there to prove that to myself too, LOL! Devices that claim that they are "approved by" the TGA means that they have not gone through the testing in order for them to be declared safe for use here. So, in my mind, any person/company that uses or sells an unlisted "Dermaroller" device is bad news.

There should be no negative side effects and it should always be done by a professional.

2. I have a post-needling skin care kit that I have to use for 5 days post treatment: http://dermaquest.com.au/products/professional-care/post-skin-needlingresurfacing-kit

3. The only product I have with copper in it is the Antioxidant Soothing Serum as part of the kit above. My normal skin care routine doesn't include it. I might ask about it this Friday when I'm having my next Dermaroller treatment.

4. I'm sold on the skin care products I'm using post needling and in general. So I'd say no, CP's are not required. I personally think Vitamin A is much more effective but I guess everyone is different.

You're really getting me interested in the idea of trying Dermarolling--though, as I've mentioned, some people warn against the pitfalls of it, which, yes, concern me.

Maybe I've been blinded by my love for the Dermaroller... what pitfalls have you been warned about?

I read some reviews of Priori's mineral makeup on Makeupalley.com. One woman notes that it does nothing to help hide acne scars. (I assume that she's using the word correctly--i.e., that she's talking about damaged/indented skin.) Is it your experience that mineral makeup hides or may enhance the appearance of your scars?

I definitely need a makeup plan of action before stopping the BC pills. I am certain that the liquid makeup that my skin currently tolerates will not be an option when my hormones start fluctuating wildly.

 

Honestly I don't think there is any make-up out there (besides Dermaflage) that will conceal indentations. My scarring does seem a little less obvious when I don't wear make-up but the trade-off is that if I don't put make-up on I end up walking around looking like I've just gotten out of bed! I think it looks less obvious when I don't have makeup on because my skin tone is a little uneven and you can see my freckles etc, drawing the attention away from my scars. Putting make-up on makes my skin tone even so naturally the first thing to catch your eye is then my scarring.

I don't let that bother me really, I don't want to hide from the world and I know my skin is getting better! Also I've found that blush helps draw the attention away from my cheeks to the higher parts of my face (as I put it on my super high cheek bones ). Some days I look great, others not so great. Every day is different.

I had 15 blood clots in my lungs exactly two months after starting the pill. Scary and uncool. Accutane should be a last resort. I was on that when I was a teen and it was horrible. I know they control the dosage a lot better now though, which is something positive I guess.

That's very scary, your experience with the Pill. Yikes! Count your blessings that: 1) the problem was discovered/remedied, and 2) your body didn't get accustomed to the the Pill in the first place. (I've been on it for roughly 14 years--which means I can anticipate a bad reaction to stopping it again.)

When I took Accutane at age 19, I was given the then-available lowest dosage, and I experienced pain/aches in my ribcage muscles. I could barely sleep, and my derm. took me off of the drug immediately. The symptom went away, so I can surmise that Accutane was to blame.

I haven't tried the products that are only meant to be left on for 10 minutes. This one I'm using is an overnight deal. Time to experiment I think!

I'm guessing that De La Cruz Sulfur Ointment is only meant to be applied for 10-15 minutes at a time because it contains 10% sulfur. (Most prescription sulfur products seem to have no more than 5% sulfur.) I suppose 10% could prove a bit drying, although I suspect that it would still be less harsh than BP.

Like socks?! Hehe, the things we do for our skin! Thing is, if it works for you it wouldn't matter what it smelt like. It's odd because when I think of apple-cider vinegar I think of something fruity. I'll have to smell this stuff for myself!

Here's a link to the brand of it that I use (Bragg's), in case you might be interested in trying ACV: http://bragg.com/products/bragg-organic-apple-cider-vinegar.html .

Okay' date=' now for the Dermarolling-related questions. [img']

1) Do you perform your own Dermarolling procedures? I've heard it said that it should only be done by a medical-care pro. Yet I recall one forum member saying that s/he has skin damage due to a doctor performing the process incorrectly, or so it would seem based on the negative side effects s/he is experiencing.

2) If you do the procedure yourself, what Dermarolling product/kit did you purchase?

3) I've heard people discussing the use of copper peptides (CPs) along with Dermarolling. (I know squat about CPs.) Are they contained in the A/B/C serums that you currently use?

4) Are CPs absolutely required for use with Dermarolling, or are there other products that can help reduce scarring in combination with Dermarolling?

1: No! The thought of home treatments scares the heck out of me.... There should be no negative side effects and it should always be done by a professional.

Who do you get to perform the Dermarolling procedure' date=' then? So far, I've no indication that any U.S.-based doctor in my area could/would perform it. I'm guessing that most of them would say that they've never heard of it. And I wouldn't put it past some of them to lie about not having heard of it, so as to encourage patients to get useless (temporary) fillers and laser procedures. (One plastic surgeon played dumb when I asked about subscision, which is the reason for my opinion/feeling on the matter.)

3. The only product I have with copper in it is the Antioxidant Soothing Serum as part of the kit above. My normal skin care routine doesn't include it. I might ask about it this Friday when I'm having my next Dermaroller treatment.

Please, do let me/us know what your practitioner says about the (possible) importance of copper peptide use after each Dermarolling session.

4. I'm sold on the skin care products I'm using post needling and in general. So I'd say no, CP's are not required. I personally think Vitamin A is much more effective but I guess everyone is different.

I wonder if people could get a less pricey version of Vitamin A to benefit their skin? I once heard of someone grinding up Vit. A tablets into a powder and adding water to it to make a paste that was applied to the skin. The person said it seemed to help reduce acne inflamation. Still, you wonder about the usefulness of it, as I suspect that such a homemade paste isn't necessarily absorbed very well.

Maybe I've been blinded by my love for the Dermaroller... what pitfalls have you been warned about?

The forum member who had a problem from it said that his/her skin seemed to be damaged, that the skin's integrity was weakened and softish, I believe. (I can't even recall where the thread is, or I'd provide a link to it.)

...I don't think there is any make-up out there (besides Dermaflage) that will conceal indentations. My scarring does seem a little less obvious when I don't wear make-up but the trade-off is that if I don't put make-up on I end up walking around looking like I've just gotten out of bed! I think it looks less obvious when I don't have makeup on because my skin tone is a little uneven and you can see my freckles etc, drawing the attention away from my scars. Putting make-up on makes my skin tone even so naturally the first thing to catch your eye is then my scarring.

I find that my scarring is less obvious in the morning, when my face is still more plump from fluid "resting" in my face during the nighttime period. I think that as the day wears on, the fluid content--and, thus, the plump appearance--wears off due to gravity and such.

For me, I think that even though makeup evens out my skin tone, it also settles into indented scarring, making it more obvious--especially as the day wear on. It's a Catch-22. *sigh* Guess I need some method of healing my scars a bit more, so that I don't have this quandary to deal with. Heh...

BTW, you said that each Fraxel Re:Store session required a 2-week rest period for you. Did each treatment use up all of your annual vacation time, or do you have a lot more than that in AU? That's my biggest issue about pursuing Re:Store--or especially Re giving up all of available and much-needed vacation time.