Also what length are these Sam? make sure your getting a good few mm of penetration into your scars!!

The needles are 4mm long,is that long enough lamar?

Lamarr,

I saw your brief post on DenD359's thread about

the Divine Beauty ECIT kit (with 1 mm and 1.5 mm).

Was wondering you thoughts about the technique itself (price aside),

punching straight down vs angular punching (dermarolling).

Kinda made sense to me, but I'm really a begginner at

rolling. Any thoughts?

Does anyone know if the results from dermaroller on acne scars are permanent, or does it only make the scars better as long as you roll?

Hey Lamar!

Where could I find CHEAP PEN NEEDLES? The one you linked was worth 45 US$ !!

Where did you guys find a high gauge 30-40 gauge needles instead of wedge-tipped lancets?

THANK YOU SO MUCH!

Hey Lamar!

Where could I find CHEAP PEN NEEDLES? The one you linked was worth 45 US$ !! 🙁

Where did you guys find a high gauge 30-40 gauge needles instead of wedge-tipped lancets?

THANK YOU SO MUCH!

Praisethelordfor,yes the dermaroller and needling does make scars permanently improved.

Rentstuff,who uses 30-40 gauge needles?

I use 33g micro-fine lancets which are 4mm long but i don't think anyone uses 40 gauge on here,i maybe wrong so could you tell me who does and if there is a link to where i can buy the 40g needles.

Here is where i get my 33g needles from which are cheap,i don't know if they ship worldwide though.

http://www.pcpdirect.co.uk/Pharmacy/Diabet...2mm_33G_100.htm

It seems like a lot of people bought the LEDs about 6 months ago now, are there any more reports on their progress? I realise some people have been posting in other threads, but as I don't come on here regularly it's hard to keep up, and it can be hard to find them. I've found legend's thread, which doesn't seem to come to any particular conclusion. Are there any other relevant threads that show progress (or lack of it) with the LEDs?

I've been using the needling, dermarolling and LEDs for about 3 months now.... not quite six but I've seen some improvement... nothing stellar, but I get the impression that it's gradually smoothing the scars up, improving texture. I do feel some scars have gotten wider and broader. Overall I think it looks healthier. But I guess it'll be easier to say once I've been doing this longer.

Thanks for reporting on your progress. It doesn't sound as great an effect as Lamar suggested, but maybe it needs more time. I'd be worried if my scars were getting 'wider and broader' though, doesn't that make them more noticeable?

it's strange... some of my scars seem broader and wider, but less deep. I definitely think it's better than not needling and rolling.

You need to remember that when you first begin rolling you WON'T be doing it properly. I still struggle to do needling as agressively as professionals do it. But over time you get better, it is an art. Given time you will get better results because you become more thorough with the procedure. People shouldn't underestimate how many times you need to penetrate the scars to get good results.

I should post my experience.

I've been doing needling along with LEDs per Lamarr's advice for about the past 6 months.

It isn't a miracle cure and the results are slow, but it's the best thing I've ever tried for my scars.

It was much better than tca cross especially for me (better results, and much less terrible scar magnifying redness).

I have ice pick and box car type scarring mainly. The scars that I was most aggressive on (i.e. had the most sessions on and punctured the most times per session) have had the best results. I typically focus on individual scars w/ 3mm diabetic needles, but when my schedule permits downtime I will also do full face 2.0 or 2.5mm roller.

There is one scar that was a mid sized box car that has been raised significantly, I'd say 40% improvement. That is the one I have been most aggressive on and had the most sessions on, which is probably why it's had the best results. There are a few icepicks that have also improved about 30% and again they are the ones I was most aggressive on. Many of my other scars have only improved around 10% or not at all, but these are generally the ones that I was not as aggressive on and/or did not have as many sessions on.

Now, if I jump on them very aggressively too is that going to cause them to improve a lot as well? Who knows, with scars you can't predict anything. But I will say again that this method has the most promsie to me of doing that than any other I've tried.

Like many treatments, your scars will still look red and thus worse than normal as you go through this process, and you have to be patient and have many sessions. There were certain sessions when I felt I had been very aggressive on certain scars and then got no improvement over the following month - but then I tried again on them a month later, with the same level of aggression, and got a solid 10 or 15% improvement over the following month. Perhaps the first time undermined the scar in an unnoticeable way making it more ammenable to the next session, or perhaps it was just luck and the chance of where in the scar you prick and at what angle. One of the conclusions I draw from it is that I should try to do as many sessions (no less than a month apart though) on as many of my scars as I can, being as aggressive as I can (while still being safe).

A few other pointers: Firstly, I believe the LEDs are very key. I've used them pretty religiously, once per day about 5 days per week. I use my red and yellow leds for about 7 minutes each. I'm not very familiar with the science behind them and my understanding is that 5 minutes may be optimum. I just prefer a couple minutes longer, as it seemed to improve my results ever so slightly but that's just me and it could simply have been a coincidence. Point is that I think the LEDs are key as Lamarr has said again and again.

Secondly, after you do a session, get as much sleep as possible over the following week at least. I'm a workaholic and part-time student and often only get 4 hours a night. I've had no choice but to do most of my sessions under those conditions - however, there was one session where i was able to reduce my workload for the subsequent week and get plenty of sleep, and that was my best session in terms of results.

Thirdly, I take a whole lot of vitamin C. Other stuff may help as well (I also take yeast tablets and a multi), but C is obviously worthwhile.

As far as topicals go, I do use the terproline that Lamarr suggested. I don't believe it made a major difference in the results (though I could be wrong). But I like it, it doesn't break me out and it moisturizes.

So the ideas are: be very aggressive, do as many sessions as possible (allowing >1 month of healing in between), use the LEDs, get lots of sleep, take vitamin C.

Use these ideas at your own risk. These are essentially the ideas Lamarr stated from day one, so I'm not providing anything new. I'm mainly here (as others have been) to say that I believe that this works. Whether it can achieve 100% improvement on my icepick and boxcar scarring I do not know yet, but I can verify that it's achieved 40% so far on at least one of them.

I'm mad busy but will try to update with my progress and any other procedures I try in the coming months. Best of luck you guys. If you cure your scars, try to help others w/ permanent problems and never base ur treatment of a book on its cover.

Lamar, I have recently tried the "vinegar method" for my hypertrophic scars and ended up making my scars even worse. Now I am extremely depressed about my scars and I'm desperate to get rid of these scars so I can move on with my life. I remember you mentioning LLLT for hypertrophic scars and I was just wondering if you can tell me what you know about this treatment (how effective, do you know anyone that tried this, what have you read about it, where to get it, etc) My hypertrophic scars are on both sides of my jawline, they are red, slightly elevated, and quite painful to touch. Also I remember you saying that needling was effective for hypertrophic scars. If so, how deep should I go for hypertrophic scars and should I use LEDs after needling these scars since LEDs induce collagen formation and hypertrophic scars are caused by over production of collagen. I need your help bro...thanks.

I'm curious how do you guys needle with the diabetic needles? I find it hard to get the right angles since the needles are very short.

Lamar, I have recently tried the "vinegar method" for my hypertrophic scars and ended up making my scars even worse. Now I am extremely depressed about my scars and I'm desperate to get rid of these scars so I can move on with my life. I remember you mentioning LLLT for hypertrophic scars and I was just wondering if you can tell me what you know about this treatment (how effective, do you know anyone that tried this, what have you read about it, where to get it, etc) My hypertrophic scars are on both sides of my jawline, they are red, slightly elevated, and quite painful to touch. Also I remember you saying that needling was effective for hypertrophic scars. If so, how deep should I go for hypertrophic scars and should I use LEDs after needling these scars since LEDs induce collagen formation and hypertrophic scars are caused by over production of collagen. I need your help bro...thanks.

Well if i was you i would purchase some 5mw 650nm red laser diodes and use them to expose your scarring to. If you use them for the right amount of time you can cause bioinhibition and reduce the size of the scars.

If you go on aixiz.com you can get a small power supply and a couple of laser diodes for like 20 bucks. I think this would be the best bet for scarring like yours...

I'm curious how do you guys needle with the diabetic needles? I find it hard to get the right angles since the needles are very short.

Thats why we are using 4-5mm needles bud, look up the ones i have posted in this thread. Sam also uses something similar...

great thread lemar....i have a few questions if you wouldnt mid answering

1) where i the uk do you order the needles from? or do you oder them form the us? can you please give me the uk site or wherever you get yours from (i looked in this thread and can't find it)

2) could you tell me if the following are the correct steps

1. put a thick layer of ELMA, massage it well into skin...reapply in thin areas, make sure its thick and even

2. cover face with saram wrap, it will stick to the ELMA..press the saram wrap firmly onto face

3. leave this on for 1 hour (the saram wrap over the ELMA cream)

4. after 1 hour, remove the saram wrap, and rinse the ELMA residue

5. start rolling/needling

3) can i roll and needle the same day? do i roll first and then start needling straight after?

thanks again...look forwards to your response

hey lamar,

I brought the red and yellow LEDs. You said use them about 5 mins each every day. Do you use the red or yellow first? How long do you wait to use the other LED following the first one? Do you use the LEDs immediately after dermarolling or wait a few days later? I know you said that before but I just forgot what the specifics were.

great thread lemar....i have a few questions if you wouldnt mid answering

1) where i the uk do you order the needles from? or do you oder them form the us? can you please give me the uk site or wherever you get yours from (i looked in this thread and can't find it)

2) could you tell me if the following are the correct steps

1. put a thick layer of ELMA, massage it well into skin...reapply in thin areas, make sure its thick and even

2. cover face with saram wrap, it will stick to the ELMA..press the saram wrap firmly onto face

3. leave this on for 1 hour (the saram wrap over the ELMA cream)

4. after 1 hour, remove the saram wrap, and rinse the ELMA residue

5. start rolling/needling

3) can i roll and needle the same day? do i roll first and then start needling straight after?

thanks again...look forwards to your response

First of all, i love helping people. But guys i have answered this stuff over and over!!

Anyhow i will repeat again because i don't want to seem mean :P.

Go on google and search "BD Micro-Fine Pen Needle 31 G x 5mm." i listed these in my first post, you can get them from numerous places. express chemist is fine...

Not allowed to give links...

Your steps are correct, but personally i dissinfect the skin AGAIn when im taking the EMLA off. I use alcohol pads, my skin gets on fine with them but some people may not. Give them a try by themselves to see how your skin responds and use isopropyl 70% pads to take the EMLA off.

You can roll and needle the same day yes. Do the needling first otherwise you won't be able to identify the scars as much and you will be sore. Dermaroller straight after this...

I have become parranoid about infections recently so i always have some bactroban, hibiscrub etc handy. Wash your skin with hibiscrub for a few minutes before you begin ALL the above processes. It's very cheap and has a lasting effect e.g. will carry on killing microbs for a few hours after washing.

hey lamar,

I brought the red and yellow LEDs. You said use them about 5 mins each every day. Do you use the red or yellow first? How long do you wait to use the other LED following the first one? Do you use the LEDs immediately after dermarolling or wait a few days later? I know you said that before but I just forgot what the specifics were. :redface:

5 Minutes per area, as close to the skin as possible is best. When i say 5 mins per area i mean if you have a smaller device e.g. 90 leds then you need to move this several times for 5 minutes EACH area you are treating. Or you can just hover over the entire area for 15 mins.

I use either first, i don't believe it matters. I personally use them immediately after dermarolling yes, others wait a few days... The jury is still out on that one.

Hey Lamarr, I suggest you put a note on your first post in this thread and list down the FAQs frequently asked questions and an "last updated" date so other members would take note

Thanks lamar.

I also brought a sunscreen with zinc oxide. Is SPF 45+ alright? How long do you wait to apply the sunscreen over your regular treatment? (teropline?)

SPF isn't really themain concern, but so long as you have the zinc oxide like you have, your all good. Leave it 5-10 mins before applying the sunscreen over terproline.

thanks Lamar.

Is it alright to use a 1.5mm needle on the temples area since it's thinner than most of the face?

dang, how come i never ever bought the right needle, here the one that i bough, turn out they have bevel. i don't understand, it clearly state diabetic needle, how come...

https://www.amazon.com/PIC-Insupen-Diabetic-Pen-Needles/dp/B001A6HTV6/

do you think they could work lamarr?

1.5mm should be ok on the temples, just don't press as hard as the rest of your face and go a bit more carefully....

Cuuca, those look fine fromt he picture, when i say beveli mean and obvious bevel, not how most needles are where they are kind of sliced dianally at the end. So long as the bevel is still 31g it should be ok. I really need a close up picture with a good quality camera to be able to say for certain though!!

Hey Lamarr,

I'm in the same boat you were, i dont have enough money to pay for the treatments with Dr Chu, so I think i will have two more with him, then i'll do the rest myself. But, is there any chance in when doing the procedure that you could possibly make things worse....obviously, i'm not gonna be perfect at it so i'm just a little scared that i may do it wrong and cause more damage.

Also, what are you're thoughts on this particular roller...

[Edited link out]

I have seen loads with the wooden handle, like the one Dr Chu uses but when i type it up in ebay the above one always comes up. Any advice is appreciated.

K

This is the roller Dr Chu uses.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-3-LINE-DR-ROLLER...93%3A1|294%3A50

Lamar,wouldn't i be better off getting the 10mW 660nm than the 5mW 660nm or even the 35mW 660nm then it wouldn't take as long to reach the 6 joules to start Bio-inhibition?