Acne.org Products
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3489067?dopt=Abstract
Could DMSO be a piece in the regeneration puzzle?
Bulgarian Derm turned me on to DMSO and it's therapeutic potential.
The stanford-scar-war team has finally made an anti-scar product by manipulating wound environment. It was faster than expected.http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/india-...e_10048248.html
It's encouraging!
People like Dr. Geoff Gurtner and Dr. Mark Ferguson can salvage our lives.
Here is an interview with Dr. Geoff Gurtner
http://170.224.106.75/stemcells/2008/0806/...ls.2008.95.html
When is this supposed to be available to physicians?
It should be available very soon and the team has actually patented the bandage.
It makes the wound heal flat.
http://www.trendhunter.com/trends/anti-sca...-make-it-better
the only problem that i see with this bandage is how would you replace the ecm? This may prevent raised keloid scarring, but it won't regenerate missing tissues. It also can't ensure that there is no atrophy to the healed wound...at least I'm pretty sure.
Before I email him, perhaps we can list a series of questions to ask:
1. When will it be available?
2. Can the bandage be changed frequently (daily or every other day) so that it can be used with ECM scaffolds.
...any other questions to add to the list?
the only problem that i see with this bandage is how would you replace the ecm? This may prevent raised keloid scarring, but it won't regenerate missing tissues. It also can't ensure that there is no atrophy to the healed wound...at least I'm pretty sure.
Before I email him, perhaps we can list a series of questions to ask:
1. When will it be available?
2. Can the bandage be changed frequently (daily or every other day) so that it can be used with ECM scaffolds.
...any other questions to add to the list?
Perhaps ask him if light, specifically at wavelengths between 670-810nm, can travel through the bandage.
Okay, this is a weird link and the results are not *that* incredible but:
[removed]
I know many people have had bad results from TCA Cross..... but what if the area to be treated was first injected with stem cells say a day or a week prior --- then do TCA cross and COMBINE with Acell (or ECM equivalent). Hmmmm. I wonder.
holdontohope said:Okay, this is a weird link and the results are not *that* incredible but:[removed]
I know many people have had bad results from TCA Cross..... but what if the area to be treated was first injected with stem cells say a day or a week prior --- then do TCA cross and COMBINE with Acell (or ECM equivalent). Hmmmm. I wonder.
I am very curious about this, as well. Perhaps BRD can add his insight into this.
Franklins Tower said:holdontohope said:Okay, this is a weird link and the results are not *that* incredible but:[removed]
I know many people have had bad results from TCA Cross..... but what if the area to be treated was first injected with stem cells say a day or a week prior --- then do TCA cross and COMBINE with Acell (or ECM equivalent). Hmmmm. I wonder.
I am very curious about this, as well. Perhaps BRD can add his insight into this.
Every scientific paper I've looked through tells me that stem cells can enhance any of the current scar revision/resurfacing techniques employed. The only problem is that up until the present time I don't have practical experience with stem cells. I am however setting up the necessary equipment that will allow me to do some simple experiments to see how infact I can get these microscopic progenitor angels to come to our rescue.
The theory is that the right stem cells can both incorporate themselves into host tissues and guide/stimulate the regenerative activity of other cells in and around damaged tissues. For example, there is some evidence that stem cells release growth factors that are needed for tissue regeneration as opposed to the growth factors many other cells produce during an injury that stimulate an inflammatory response and a cosequent scar formation. At the same time stem cells can also differentiate into various cells that are a part of the complex living matrix that is the epidermis, dermis and hypodermis.
So it may just be that a critical mass of the right stem cells (ie: for cosmetic procedures relating to dermal defecits = adipose derived mesenchymal stem cells) can guide epithelial fibroblasts, macrophages, keratinocytes, etc to act more like they do in a first trimester foetus than in the way they act within adult skin. Furthermore, a recent animal (mouse) experiment showed that such stem cells tend to utilize their plasticity to incorporate themselves into damaged tissue deficient areas of the dermis in order to prop it up to its normal level of aesthetic and histological functionality.
I also believe that adding some injected ecm components along with the stem cells will further guide them to lay in new areas of dermal ECM. Indeed the rodent model experiments have shown that ECM components suspended in a gel that is injected along with the stem cells can guide the activity of these cells and essentially program them to produce ~5X more collagen than an equal nuumber of differentiated fibroblasts. In other words, stem cells have the equipment to construct tissues by way of a program (gene expression activation/deactivation) based on contact and communication with host tissue cells, yet this process can be made even more efficient and effective when a specific blueprint/scaffold is introduced. Doing this, one can control the stem cells' activity and direct them to build more cells that produce a desired type of collagen, elastin, etc, which can counter the degenerative effects of various conditions, including those that impact people like us who have acne scars.
I also think that injecting Tgf-B3 along with the stem cells would help immensely. Perhaps some Fetuin-A, Thymosin-B4 and Laminin 511 would also come quite in handy with such a procedure. They key is to try to enhance communication between the stem cells and specific tissue cells, while also essentially sending messages to them via the various proteins listed above in order to create a kind of "total quality management" environment for the histological construction works happening within the treated skin. I hypothesize that these proteins are abundant when tissue is injured in an early gestation foetus, and this along with the potent foetal stem cells leads to perfect regeneration. Of course there are many other proteins, such as the tremendous number of growth factors, that play a part. Some we know and some we don't quite know just yet. The Tgf-B3 mentioned above is just one important component... Cytokines are also important. So in the end it's a matter of combining these molecules, stem cells, ecm components in vivo in the area that needs them the most. From there I expect nothing short of a revolution in cosmetic dermatology, plastic surgery and other medical spheres.
Anyway, I think you can all start telling your doctors about these things. Talk to them about isolating mesenchymal stem cells from your adipose tissue. The procedure is quite simple. Talk to them about the various biotech suppliers on the net that provide the various proteins I mention above. Tell them that if they want to they can start doing these procedures today because there are already various physicians that do this in all corners of the globe. Get the word out. You are the patient and doctors are supposed to listen to their patients. Believe me, I understand that it won't be easy talking to many of these thick headed ducks, but there will also be doctors who will hear you out and they will start thinking about what you've said. Once they realize that doing such procedures offers them a competitive advantage, they will jump on the wagon. Then their competitors will take note and they too will join the gold rush. Soon enough there will be a freight train forcing its way through the medical community, and you will have become both a benefactor and a beneficiary of a new medical paradigm.
Well it is how it is... Money fuels medical progress, scientists and medical doctors are the engine that runs on that fuel, but you the patients are the pilots who have the power to control and direct the entire vessel. You just have to have insight, hope and overwhelming dedication to work tirelessly for your cause. I think you have that...
So don't just wait for others to talk to their doctors and report back here. Don't just give up when you come across an a**hole who thinks a procedure such as excision invented centuries ago is good enough. Just keep trying and trying. Drive the progress where you want it to go. Holdontohope is doing just this in the way that she think she can best do it. She has her talents and you have yours, and together you/we can make this happen sooner than later.
Ask yourself if you want to help yourself and others who suffer just as you suffer? Ask yourself how you can best do this? Since I know the answer to the former question is "yes" I know you can come up with an answer to the latter one as well. So write up a plan and go out there to do your thing... Make your wildest dreams come true!
New pics on Dr Robert Jones's Acell blog
http://www.drrobertjones.com/acell.html
The dudes on hairsite.com have been following closely as well: http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/board_en...category-0.html
Another link I found on hairsite.com which explains that a scab is made of fibrin and will result in a scar. It talks of something called plasmin which breaks down fibrin, and if that's present in a wound it will heal with less scar formation. So, Bulgarian Derm, could PLASMIN be another ingredient in the skin regeneration puzzle? Here's the link on scabs, fibrin, and plasmin:
http://stke.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abs...;2007/392/tw226
There was a scab on Dr Jones's patient, so naturally, I think it would scar. Dr Jones's first Acell test was not carried out as best as it should have been. The wound should have been kept moist and Acell generously reapplied til totally healed. I think things would look remarkably better if that was the case.
Dr Jones's first Acell test was not carried out as best as it should have been. The wound should have been kept moist and Acell generously reapplied til totally healed. I think things would look remarkably better if that was the case.
According to Manning, the Acell rep, the new scar can be excised and acell applied to regenerate what is genetically supposed to be there.
Every scientific paper I've looked through tells me that stem cells can enhance any of the current scar revision/resurfacing techniques employed. The only problem is that up until the present time I don't have practical experience with stem cells. I am however setting up the necessary equipment that will allow me to do some simple experiments to see how infact I can get these microscopic progenitor angels to come to our rescue.
The theory is that the right stem cells can both incorporate themselves into host tissues and guide/stimulate the regenerative activity of other cells in and around damaged tissues. For example, there is some evidence that stem cells release growth factors that are needed for tissue regeneration as opposed to the growth factors many other cells produce during an injury that stimulate an inflammatory response and a cosequent scar formation. At the same time stem cells can also differentiate into various cells that are a part of the complex living matrix that is the epidermis, dermis and hypodermis.
So it may just be that a critical mass of the right stem cells (ie: for cosmetic procedures relating to dermal defecits = adipose derived mesenchymal stem cells) can guide epithelial fibroblasts, macrophages, keratinocytes, etc to act more like they do in a first trimester foetus than in the way they act within adult skin. Furthermore, a recent animal (mouse) experiment showed that such stem cells tend to utilize their plasticity to incorporate themselves into damaged tissue deficient areas of the dermis in order to prop it up to its normal level of aesthetic and histological functionality.
I also believe that adding some injected ecm components along with the stem cells will further guide them to lay in new areas of dermal ECM. Indeed the rodent model experiments have shown that ECM components suspended in a gel that is injected along with the stem cells can guide the activity of these cells and essentially program them to produce ~5X more collagen than an equal nuumber of differentiated fibroblasts. In other words, stem cells have the equipment to construct tissues by way of a program (gene expression activation/deactivation) based on contact and communication with host tissue cells, yet this process can be made even more efficient and effective when a specific blueprint/scaffold is introduced. Doing this, one can control the stem cells' activity and direct them to build more cells that produce a desired type of collagen, elastin, etc, which can counter the degenerative effects of various conditions, including those that impact people like us who have acne scars.
I also think that injecting Tgf-B3 along with the stem cells would help immensely. Perhaps some Fetuin-A, Thymosin-B4 and Laminin 511 would also come quite in handy with such a procedure. They key is to try to enhance communication between the stem cells and specific tissue cells, while also essentially sending messages to them via the various proteins listed above in order to create a kind of "total quality management" environment for the histological construction works happening within the treated skin. I hypothesize that these proteins are abundant when tissue is injured in an early gestation foetus, and this along with the potent foetal stem cells leads to perfect regeneration. Of course there are many other proteins, such as the tremendous number of growth factors, that play a part. Some we know and some we don't quite know just yet. The Tgf-B3 mentioned above is just one important component... Cytokines are also important. So in the end it's a matter of combining these molecules, stem cells, ecm components in vivo in the area that needs them the most. From there I expect nothing short of a revolution in cosmetic dermatology, plastic surgery and other medical spheres.
Anyway, I think you can all start telling your doctors about these things. Talk to them about isolating mesenchymal stem cells from your adipose tissue. The procedure is quite simple. Talk to them about the various biotech suppliers on the net that provide the various proteins I mention above. Tell them that if they want to they can start doing these procedures today because there are already various physicians that do this in all corners of the globe. Get the word out. You are the patient and doctors are supposed to listen to their patients. Believe me, I understand that it won't be easy talking to many of these thick headed ducks, but there will also be doctors who will hear you out and they will start thinking about what you've said. Once they realize that doing such procedures offers them a competitive advantage, they will jump on the wagon. Then their competitors will take note and they too will join the gold rush. Soon enough there will be a freight train forcing its way through the medical community, and you will have become both a benefactor and a beneficiary of a new medical paradigm.
Well it is how it is... Money fuels medical progress, scientists and medical doctors are the engine that runs on that fuel, but you the patients are the pilots who have the power to control and direct the entire vessel. You just have to have insight, hope and overwhelming dedication to work tirelessly for your cause. I think you have that...
So don't just wait for others to talk to their doctors and report back here. Don't just give up when you come across an a**hole who thinks a procedure such as excision invented centuries ago is good enough. Just keep trying and trying. Drive the progress where you want it to go. Holdontohope is doing just this in the way that she think she can best do it. She has her talents and you have yours, and together you/we can make this happen sooner than later.
Ask yourself if you want to help yourself and others who suffer just as you suffer? Ask yourself how you can best do this? Since I know the answer to the former question is "yes" I know you can come up with an answer to the latter one as well. So write up a plan and go out there to do your thing... Make your wildest dreams come true!
Thank you, BRD, for this very insightful and elaborate explaination!
Woudl you happen to know which would be the right stem cells for hypertrophic scars?
New pics on Dr Robert Jones's Acell blog
http://www.drrobertjones.com/acell.html
The dudes on hairsite.com have been following closely as well: http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/board_en...category-0.html
Another link I found on hairsite.com which explains that a scab is made of fibrin and will result in a scar. It talks of something called plasmin which breaks down fibrin, and if that's present in a wound it will heal with less scar formation. So, Bulgarian Derm, could PLASMIN be another ingredient in the skin regeneration puzzle? Here's the link on scabs, fibrin, and plasmin:
http://stke.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abs...;2007/392/tw226
There was a scab on Dr Jones's patient, so naturally, I think it would scar. Dr Jones's first Acell test was not carried out as best as it should have been. The wound should have been kept moist and Acell generously reapplied til totally healed. I think things would look remarkably better if that was the case.
I think the scab maybe proof of something being denatured, or it is the cause of denaturing probably on the right hand side.
However from the latest pictures though I get the feeling that part of the wound is already on its way to a complete regeneration.
Regarding keeping the wound moist. Has anyone looked up hyaluronic acid, which is the stuff that keeps ECM and everything else moist in the womb. Also Hyaluronic acid absorbs 1000 times its weight in water and is said to inhibit excessive scarring.
I reckon in one future demonstration, Hyaluronic acid should be used?
Am I the only one who thinks that the ACell looks to be working pretty well actually?
I think the left side of that scar is close to healing, maybe a better stitch job and the right side would be there too. I think this is going on a good path, not quite 2 months and the skin looks near perfect in some places and the color will fade.
Am I the only one who thinks that the ACell looks to be working pretty well actually?
I think the left side of that scar is close to healing, maybe a better stitch job and the right side would be there too. I think this is going on a good path, not quite 2 months and the skin looks near perfect in some places and the color will fade.
Erm, look above your post 
Am I the only one who thinks that the ACell looks to be working pretty well actually?
I think the left side of that scar is close to healing, maybe a better stitch job and the right side would be there too. I think this is going on a good path, not quite 2 months and the skin looks near perfect in some places and the color will fade.
I too think the healing is going quite well. The only thing that worries me (and I don't know how your skin is) is that my skin will heal THEN the white scar will happen like a month or so down the line... Judging by HOW it seems to be healing though, I am very hopeful. I am starting to think if this DOES work, Dermabrasion (like you said) is the best shot for our scaring. I think excising each little scar on my shoulders and chest would take to long and wouldn't be practical.
Let's hope this stuff can do it guys.
Am I the only one who thinks that the ACell looks to be working pretty well actually?
I think the left side of that scar is close to healing, maybe a better stitch job and the right side would be there too. I think this is going on a good path, not quite 2 months and the skin looks near perfect in some places and the color will fade.
I too think the healing is going quite well. The only thing that worries me (and I don't know how your skin is) is that my skin will heal THEN the white scar will happen like a month or so down the line... Judging by HOW it seems to be healing though, I am very hopeful. I am starting to think if this DOES work, Dermabrasion (like you said) is the best shot for our scaring. I think excising each little scar on my shoulders and chest would take to long and wouldn't be practical.
Let's hope this stuff can do it guys.
I believe that dermabrasion will not be invasive enough to remove acne scar tissue. My theory includes very strong TCA Cross as the substitute for your method.
Am I the only one who thinks that the ACell looks to be working pretty well actually?
I think the left side of that scar is close to healing, maybe a better stitch job and the right side would be there too. I think this is going on a good path, not quite 2 months and the skin looks near perfect in some places and the color will fade.
I too think the healing is going quite well. The only thing that worries me (and I don't know how your skin is) is that my skin will heal THEN the white scar will happen like a month or so down the line... Judging by HOW it seems to be healing though, I am very hopeful. I am starting to think if this DOES work, Dermabrasion (like you said) is the best shot for our scaring. I think excising each little scar on my shoulders and chest would take to long and wouldn't be practical.
Let's hope this stuff can do it guys.
I believe that dermabrasion will not be invasive enough to remove acne scar tissue. My theory includes very strong TCA Cross as the substitute for your method.
IMO there would be different techniques depending onhow and were the acne or scar is, some may need the acne cut out, some may use tca, some may eventually use enzymes.. My thinking here is you get 'all' the scar out with what tool is needed.
I believe that dermabrasion will not be invasive enough to remove acne scar tissue. My theory includes very strong TCA Cross as the substitute for your method.
won won, I'm with you. Scar tissue and atrophic defects affect all the layers of the skin. It's not just sitting on the top waiting to be abraded away. That's something that we seem to be ignoring in this thread. Realistically speaking, all of the scar tissue and defective skin needs to be removed. I don't get why people are thinking that you can grind a scar HALF way down and expect it to grow back normally. It doesn't make sense. Of course, what I'm saying is quite drastic and I'm not advocating that anyone create a large full-thickness wound on their face and hope Acell brings it back. But.....how else are we going to "start over"? Or is that really the wrong way of looking at things?
I believe that dermabrasion will not be invasive enough to remove acne scar tissue. My theory includes very strong TCA Cross as the substitute for your method.
won won, I'm with you. Scar tissue and atrophic defects affect all the layers of the skin. It's not just sitting on the top waiting to be abraded away. That's something that we seem to be ignoring in this thread. Realistically speaking, all of the scar tissue and defective skin needs to be removed. I don't get why people are thinking that you can grind a scar HALF way down and expect it to grow back normally. It doesn't make sense. Of course, what I'm saying is quite drastic and I'm not advocating that anyone create a large full-thickness wound on their face and hope Acell brings it back. But.....how else are we going to "start over"? Or is that really the wrong way of looking at things?
The heavily pock marked will need to slow down and concentrate on small areas at a time in order to have hope of a complete transformation. This method with the incorporation of ACell will work best when problem areas are targeted instead of large scale abrasion/ peel/ needling/ laser/ etc. Treat this medical breakthrough like you have only one shot to get it right and take all available precautions. In my opinion, Dr. Jones has done a very poor job with his experiment and has given ACell a bad name. I know he was not treating acne scarred victims, but he still did not adhere to some strict guidelines which would have helped immensely.
The Morrow Institute, a cosmetic surgery clinic, has there own stem cell research lab and some of the Institute's surgeons were honored at the Congress of the International Society of Aesthetic Surgery - http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/ho...amp;newsLang=en
I am supposed to send photos to Dr. Wu and book a free consult to discuss if the use of adipose derived stem cells will be effective for my hypertrophic scar. I sure hope so.....
One thing you can say about some people who view this thread is knee jerk reactions.
I remember the last images http://www.drrobertjones.com/2008/12/six-weeks-later.html at the six week point, in how some people thought it was a crap scar etc. and conveying it was the final version. And the sky is falling in being quick to write ecm off completely, disregarding the logic.
Now comparing the images on the 11th and the 19th http://www.drrobertjones.com/2008/12/blog-post_19.html : 'they look like two different wounds,' one looked bumpy like the regenerated shaping had failed, and the yet the newer one one looks as flat as the local tissue, in fact the left hand side looks like it will be completely regenerated, provided of course the scab has not denatured... Anyway we can tick off regenerated shape as being done, by the ecm. Now lets hope there is not much or any denaturing with the scab.
I believe that dermabrasion will not be invasive enough to remove acne scar tissue. My theory includes very strong TCA Cross as the substitute for your method.
I understand what you mean, but have you seen the procedure done with the layered dermabrasion? It seems a great degree more invasive than just a simple dermabrasion. And if you think about it... aren't you just grinding skin down? Who's to say there's a limit? Why couldn't you just keep going if need be? I mean theoretically could you not grind away the WHOLE skin layer? (Extreme I know, just using it as an example lol). The reason I suggest dermabrasion, is because of the type of scarring we have, and over the area we have it. I am talking about the white fibrous raised kind, not pitted. So a cross has no benefit... And excising hundreds of small scars over the back, shoulders, and chest is just impractical and would take forever. Some of the scars aren't very deep, while others are... So varying methods for each region will need to be used I think, but to get a "faster" "general" removal to start with, a deep layered dermabrasion is needed.
One thing you can say about some people who view this thread is knee jerk reactions.
x2
LOL
Logically, the more your body has to do to heal will detract from the overall attainment of perfection in any given area. I caution to concentrate on large areas at once due to this simple fact. You can't throw any given miracle powder on a wound and expect something from it just because it did wonders for a cat. It is unreasonable to think that the same can be said for an unhealthy (not at all debatable) balding man or acne sufferer who most definitely has inhibited wound healing mechanisms to begin with. My point: aim for the fast and easy approach and see little improvement as opposed to the slow and perfected approach that will achieve the maximum in wound healing standard.
My views on acne in general are very harsh. I have pitted scarring that has been treated with a plethora of widely used applications. I blame myself and circumstance for what has happened to me. It is time that we own up and realize that it took us years to get to where we are and it will take years (after the discovery of a cure) to get to where we think we should be.