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I don't think needling with acell will be any better than needling with anything else.
I don't think there has been any evidence acell will regenerate skin without scars. Maybe skin is the easiest tissue to regenerate, but we are not just interested in regeneration but regeneration at a scar free level. I think if you have a new wound it could prevent scarring, but alot of topicals can tout that. There has been no research it can get rid of old scars, that are programmed into skin, correct me if I'm wrong. Over long periods of time retin-a can do something close, but not instantaneously. I know it's the pure ecm and all, but does that recode the skin not to scar? No one really knows at this point. I know burn victims would love it if this were true, and I'm sure the army will dole it out to the wounded soldiers if it works. When I see it working for the burn victims, I think it will work for us.
I just sent this email to Dr. Chu. It's highly unlikely he'll reply, but worth a shot...
Hi there,
My name is Alex and you treated my acne scars a couple of years ago with Subcision, n-lite laser and Isologen, I received good results, so thank you!
I have a quick question, I realise you're a busy man and probably won't have time to reply to this but I thought it would be worth a go.
There has been a lot of talk on the internet about a new product called "ACell", it has been used for a few years on animals with great success and has recently been released for human use and FDA approved.
ACell is made from pigs bladder lining and is a pure ECM (Extra-cellular matrix). As you can see here ( http://www.acell.com/vetcases/dudley.pdf ) it shows promising results on a dog! But I was wondering, would you think an ECM such as ACell might be useful to help heal punch excision wounds to correct acne scarring for example? Or are you aware of any trials in this area?
Myself and many others on the acne.org site would be very interested in your opinion as you are probably the most famous Dr. on there!
Many thanks,
Alex.
I cannot agree that skin is the easiest to regenerate.
Skin is actually very complex. It is more complex than the tissue that composes the aorta. It is more complex than the tissue of the esophagus. The reason for this is that skin functions as the organism's barrier to the external environment. It is composed of many layers, each with a specific function. It is designed to breath, to perspirate, to protect against microbes, to absorb light for biomodulation, to absorb uv altered oils for vitamin uptake, to develop folliculas, to respond to changes in the external environment (humidity, temperature, radiation, etc) through complex chemical reactions and inter-cellular communication, etc... It is extremely complicated. It is almost fluid like in its dynamic adaptability to various stimuli. In fact, skin from the epidermis all the way down into the subcutaneous layers is one of the most histologically complex tissues, even while it is just afew mm in depth...
If the Acell ECM works as well as you believe, then this would be great. I hope it does. However, we need to see that no scar is left from the use of this product. I am reluctant to believe this will be the case until I have hard proof. Remember, even if it leaves small scars it would be inappropriate for use on the face.
It would have to reproduce skin perfectly for it to be a satisfactory cosmetic option for scar revision. If you experiment on yourself, do not do so on your face. Safety comes first.
Kirk- what makes you so optimistic for outstanding regeneration of the skin within months if no studies have been done to prove that with the acell ecm? How long do you think it will realistically be until doctors will start removing our acne scar tissue and using this ecm to produce scarless skin?
sw cub, I deduce from what I've researched and with this I'm condfident.
Pure ecm has regenerated a heart aorta, skin is known to be the easiest organ to regenerate and the scarring response in all tissues of the body that scar is similar. It can regenerate an aorta to the surrounding tissue it should be to regenerate skin to the surrounding tissue.
They are expecting to create an esophugus with it (again skin is easier).
Without completing the course the pure-universal-ecm (that all us animals share) regenerated the surrounding local fur as well as skin, that is like running the 100meters and then deciding to do 50meters extra. Skin by itself would have been good enough.
It has regenerated two fingers tips, bone, skin blood vessels etc.
It has been fought over in court...
All wounds lack ecm, when normal skin has ecm.
etc. etc.
Hello Bulgarian Derm,
I'm sure there is some quote in this thread were someone quotes some 'expert' in the game who claims skin is the easiest tissue to regenerate, and I may have it some where in my documents I've saved, which I have hundreds. And I know that an expert once said if scarfree healing works on one tissue it will work on another because the scarring process is very similar in tissues, in the body that scar and do not regenerate. It works, on skin, it will work on other organs...
Skin like all tissue when you look at it microscopically is complex, they all have evolved a degree complexity for its role in a nervous system on the biosphere earth.
And when you micro analyise anything it looks complex, you micro analyise our metabolic system in a micro way it would be many, many more time complex than analysing mere tissue regeneration which unlike a metabolic system, to my thinking is universal amongst mammals who do not keloid. But we still got a simple cure for scurvy without micro analysing the metabolic system, meaning curing scurvy was not as complex as it looked. Anyway someone has already figured out the mechanism of scarring and scar free healing as it is, Dr Katz. And my bet is part of the mechanism would have ecm in it as the conductor. Though I may be wrong. Maybe she studied the conductor?
And regarding scarring if we did not have the universal-pure-ecm (the conductor), to direct growth factors to switch them on and off, to attract and direct stem cells etc. it would probaly take us lots of intense therapy to remove a scar over time. I mean Dr's would be sitting around a patient watching his reactions and then be like a reactive surgeon injecting him with this over the next half hour and that over the next ten minutes, prompted by a beep on a machine etc. And we would probably spend many years trying out treatments that do not treat the cause before we got to that stage were the Dr can act like an ECM conductor. Not very practical.
It is designed to breath, to perspirate, to protect against microbes, to absorb light for biomodulation, to absorb uv altered oils for vitamin uptake, to develop folliculas, to respond to changes in the external environment (humidity, temperature, radiation, etc) through complex chemical reactions and inter-cellular communication, etc... It is extremely complicated. It is almost fluid like in its dynamic adaptability to various stimuli. In fact, skin from the epidermis all the way down into the subcutaneous layers is one of the most histologically complex tissues, even while it is just afew mm in depth...
The pure-universal-ecm seems to know what the tissue to is regenerating is supposed to do, that what makes it special in my logic. You mention a lot of functions of the skin and I'm assuming you think the ECM does not go past just making a basic cover like a scar does (a scar does not have the fluid quality you mention, it does not regulate temprature etc.). In my post I mention in a metaphor it went 50 meters more than 100meters, by growing fur, fur that matched the local environment, it has grown any local tissue around it many times. Now to me that says, in my logic, if it regenerates an evolved extra it will regenerate everything it needs to regulate. I would bet that it regenerates every recpetor it needs... I would put all my chips down and gamble and logically predict that is what it does.
In my current logic ecm does the micro managing already, it is very special when you deduce. It make regeneration easier, in the same way as a micro managing conductor makes the orchestra tick.
If the Acell ECM works as well as you believe, then this would be great. I hope it does. However, we need to see that no scar is left from the use of this product. I am reluctant to believe this will be the case until I have hard proof. Remember, even if it leaves small scars it would be inappropriate for use on the face.
I'm off the opinion if you use the universal-pure-ecm on the edges of a wound that hasn't been denatured, or oxygenated to long, and put this potent conductor stuff on raw wounds you will get regeneration over the scarring response. This means smaller wounds will be better suited than bigger wounds because they will have more oxygenated ecm over time. This means you would need semi-skillfull application over time until the gel comes out.
You make it sound on this instance that we need goal post moving perfection always, and forget there may need a revision process. Saying if it scars we can not use it.
My thinking is, if you use the pure-universal-ecm you will get a regeneration response over a scarring response, and on occassions through poor quality ecm, poor application, you might get a bit of scarring, but isn't a bit of scarring, you can revise, better than the mass of scarring you get from a scarring response?
But remember this, the pure ecm regenerated 4X4 gaping holes with fur, it completely regenerated an aorta (I've heard of denatured ecm having 95% regeneration in hole in heart operations).
Also I would rather have pure-universal-ecm in a gaping wound than the traditional scarring inflamation response.
My thinking is still that this pure-universal-ecm will be potent...
I would like to know how does this work on old burn scars? Would the skin have to be cut out first?
Can ACell grow other things, like, say you are a woman with breast cancer and you get a mastectomy...Could something like this actually grow back tissues and glands, etc? Or would that be more along the lines of stem cell reseach?
Is this considered Tissue Engineering?
Does it build andipose (spelling?) tissue?
What about Scaffolds? What exactly are they and what do they do? Are they like biodegradable bandages that slowly merge into the skin?
What about skin grafting?
What exactly has been treated so far with ACell and can we access any photos?
Are there any scientific journals that have reviewed this or any published articles by the inventor?
Will this be prescribed or applied at the doctor's office? Can it be purchased directly?
These are some of the questions that I have...
Jan31
Hi Kirk,
I like your logic... I believe you are a smart and dedicated individual. 
You have a vision, as encapsulated by your perspectives, that is in many ways superior to the near sightedness present within the medical community. You are flexible in your analysis and not weighed down by the structural rigidity that all too often controls the minds and actions of those who have the power to help.
I truly hope with ever drop of my soul that you are right.
Cheers,
BRD
January-
I truly hate it when people say this to me, but this is one occasion where I must say this. Go back and read through the thread. It's long, but contains all the answers to your questions. I probably wouldn't have mentioned it had you not mentioned so many that have been discussed.
However, to answer all of your questions at once, no one is 100% sure either way on any of those from what I've gathered.
January-
I truly hate it when people say this to me, but this is one occasion where I must say this. Go back and read through the thread. It's long, but contains all the answers to your questions. I probably wouldn't have mentioned it had you not mentioned so many that have been discussed.
However, to answer all of your questions at once, no one is 100% sure either way on any of those from what I've gathered.
These are some of the questions that I would like someone to ask Mike Manning from ACell...
I just want to contribute some ideas for some questions...
Hi Kirk,
I like your logic... I believe you are a smart and dedicated individual.
I truly hope with ever drop of my soul that you are right.
Cheers,
BRD
QFT. Thanks for both of your guy's input. True healing will not come about fast enough through one medication. It is the dedication and open-mindedness of this conglomerate of individuals who seek the truth and are ready to roll with the punches. Keep this fire stoked.
did anyone see the news segment on i think msnbc the other day?it had the asia guy from the science channel.he was talking about the regeneration of body parts and skin.no too far in the future.
In the not too far future? That is very generalistic, 50 years is also considered a "not too far future". Recently, Ive watched a scientific documentary called 2054. By that time humans are able to regrow complete organs through organ printers, and once any vital organs are damaged, a transplant with a lab organ will solve the case.
They dont mention anything about scarless healing though. But like everyone said the steps for regeneration goes like this. Skin, then finger regeneration, then limb/organs.
Remember, even if it leaves small scars it would be inappropriate for use on the face.
What about when it is used in conjunction with agressive skin needling, which as you know doesn't leave scars in the first place? I think acell or alike used in combination with needling will allow everyone to get the best results we see in people at the moment.
The problem I see with this is needling does not get rid of any scar tissue, but rather builds up collagen underneath the scar to plump it up. Acell works by replicating healthy tissue which is surrounding it. If there is a scar wall(which is still present after needling) Acell will be unable to take signals on how to produce healthy, scarless skin.
Needling does break up scar tissue bro, i realise it isn't really what acell is for but if you can get enhanced results with 0 risk, as you may have with cutting out whole chunks of tissue, i think it's worth it. Needling works so well because it does recruit stem cells and such to the area of injury, if you can enhance this you will enhance the results a great deal. You can alter the difference between one person getting amazing results from dermaroller and another not getting any.
Other reasons i believe Acell and such will be good with needling is that it is anti inflammatory and is known to heals wounds much faster obviously. The reason why most of us scarred in the first place is because our inflammatory response to tissue injury is to high. This is why you get scarring while on tane.
I really believe the levels of collagen you would get from needling would be much higher with acell. It is also interesting to note that dermal papilla ((hair follicles) which also have a large bundle of stem cells at their base) can in the right condition eat through scar tissue by secreating certain enzymes. Again i believe if you can recrute more stem cells when you form a microscopic injury you will break up more scar tissue and have better collagen placement.
Guys, as much as I hate to say it I think a lot of us are jumping the gun regarding A-Cell's capabilities.
Truth be told we have no scientific data relating to A-Cell producing scarless healing in humans; there are no peer-reviewed studies and no double-blind placebo testing or trials. This is a fact that can't be disputed but due to us being blinded by hope it is quite easy to overlook. All the anecdotal stories about the regrowing of fingers, hyper-media coverage, results from animal use etc. can very easily distort our view of the product. It makes us think that this is the solution we have been hoping for for so long and we want to believe that. Add the fact that none of us are scientists here so it is very easy to speculate.
Surely if A-Cell could regenerate skin scar free in humans then how hard would it take to produce some evidence of this? We've seen nothing scientific and controlled. The Spievak pictures are virtually worthless as due to their poor resolution (You can't zoom in and analyse the integrity of the skin), the angles they were taken and the conditions in which they were taken (ie in uncontrolled non-scientific environment by a civilian who just happens to be the brother of the person developing the A-Cell for commercial production).
You have to remember that previously doctors could not offer any surgical help to people who had lost limbs. Now, however, a doctor can propose to a patient, "You will live for the rest of your life without that limb, we can however give you the opportunity to partake in very early testing of a product that may or may not regrowth the limb." Basically the doctors/patients' view is that trying something is better than nothing. So doctors try whatever is offered to them and A-Cell is one of the very many products being tested.
I want to have hope but I don't want to keep getting my hope destroyed by profligate claims from companies when their products fail to live up to expectations. Before you can judge and hope you need scientific evidence, not hearsay; and this is the main problem with the Internet, speculation turns into fact which then spurs a veneer of hope. It is very easy to make claims, but it takes courage to prove them.
I don't want to sound pessimistic here, I just worry how we are all going to feel if A-Cell doesn't work out as there are very few products that are ready for release over the next two or three years; and the ones that are ready after that time frame have quite an average success rate.
Bulgarian Derm the only thing you can go by imo is your deducement ___+___=___ using what information is available , I always research and I never completely believe experts on both sides, experts who in the main will always have a bias one way or another and may want to control your expectations etc..
And again with what I've seen, I'm still very confident the pure-universal-ecm is very potent. It is obvious to me.
e.g. If a denatured ecm can regenerate a heart tissue (bio star) 95% then, I'm very confident for the fought over in a court pure ecm. If it can go the extra 9yards with regenerating fur on top of the skin I'm very confident.
Anyway thank you for the compliment, I pay you the same compliment and I pay it to all who add to this thread and give out links to research so we can all reseatch and make our deducements.
That picture makes the manufacturing process seem just so easy it's tempting to try 
.
I'm sure any pig slaughterhouse would be happy to give you a bladder for free as they are usually just disposed of and not considered a valuable part of the pig. A pig raised in an organic environment and free from pathogens would be ideal; again I don't think this aspect would be too problematic. The difficult stage would be in cleaning and sterilizing the bladder after removing the layer of muscle. I wonder if something like vinegar would be okay to use?
Acell's ECM should be released for human use within the next few days, at least some time before the end of the month. The only think I'm slightly concerned about is how hard will it be to purchase it? Does it require a prescription from a doctor or is it available OTC? I think the latter would be sensible as it doesn't seem to have any notable side-effects.
If anyone hears a more news or sees any updates on the Acell site then please post here ASAP, thanks!
Acell's ECM should be released for human use within the next few days, at least some time before the end of the month. The only think I'm slightly concerned about is how hard will it be to purchase it? Does it require a prescription from a doctor or is it available OTC? I think the latter would be sensible as it doesn't seem to have any notable side-effects.
If anyone hears a more news or sees any updates on the Acell site then please post here ASAP, thanks!
You'll need a prescription.
Skin care clinic possibly pursuing Acell for acne scars:
http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/board_en...scasc-DESC.html
Someone's got to find out who the doctor is who wanted to try acell for the scars.
Hey I saw this in another forum. Someone tried to contact Mike Manning and this is what he said.
We believe ACell will be an effective treatment for scars but it will require removal of the scar tissue. We hope to investigate this further once our product is available.
We will post news of product availability and research updates on our web site.
Best regards,
Mike Manning
Technical & Customer Services
ACell, Inc.
800-826-2926
www.acell.com
This reassures me abit. I got this from this forum:
http://healthyskin.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a...52/m/1950092315
Also, I read from the board that acell plans to have a list of surgeons who are using acell by august. Hopefully, some of them will be using it for scars.