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My point is we don't need scarless healing to fix our scars, combining existing treatments that work with optimized healing and, above all, persistence should eventually yield a satisfactory result e.g. near-perfect skin that appears normal to everybody else. Apply some transparent primer and voila, even the micro-scarring is gone and you appear to have smooth, perfect skin.
We already know how to fill up icepicks/pores, we already know how to level out boxcar and rolling scars, we already know which biochemical actives yield spectacular healing results, we already have dozens of resurfacing options for finishing things up, we already have the solutions, although they're not in a neat, simple package.
Impatience prevents people from staying on the correct course, they feel a certain course of treatment is working "too slowly" so they foolishly stop and move onto something else, something that may actually be even less effective. And naturally, disappointment ensues.
Bottom line is this: the deeper and more pronounced your scarring is the longer it will take to fix it. It may take a couple of years, maybe more, other than excision there is no quick fix. But as those recent combination therapy studies have shown, it IS possible to gradually reverse atrophic scarring, at least in a significant number of patients.
My point is we don't need scarless healing to fix our scars, combining existing treatments that work with optimized healing and, above all, persistence should eventually yield a satisfactory result e.g. near-perfect skin that appears normal to everybody else. Apply some transparent primer and voila, even the micro-scarring is gone and you appear to have smooth, perfect skin.
We already know how to fill up icepicks/pores, we already know how to level out boxcar and rolling scars, we already know which biochemical actives yield spectacular healing results, we already have dozens of resurfacing options for finishing things up, we already have the solutions, although they're not in a neat, simple package.
Impatience prevents people from staying on the correct course, they feel a certain course of treatment is working "too slowly" so they foolishly stop and move onto something else, something that may actually be even less effective. And naturally, disappointment ensues.
Bottom line is this: the deeper and more pronounced your scarring is the longer it will take to fix it. It may take a couple of years, maybe more, other than excision there is no quick fix. But as those recent combination therapy studies have shown, it IS possible to gradually reverse atrophic scarring, at least in a significant number of patients.
Okay, show me ONE, just ONE example of someone who in the same photographs and lighting set up, frame, posture from a before and after pic has EVEN 60 (better than chance) improvement. JUST ONE.
I searched for patents filed through India for the cold process with no sucess. It leaves me uncertain/leary about Vav life's product. The fact that they used the burned infant hand images treated with the cherismon also increases my suspicions.
I want to trust other suppliers, but again not being able to find the Vav patent leaves me suspicious of their claims. The patent should be findable in some for if they applied for one.
First off, did Vav Life ever say their extraction method was patented? I've only ever seen the word "proprietary" used, and that doesn't necessarily mean that a patent has been filed, only that the thing in question is a trade secret and is protected by other legal instruments such as non-compete and non-disclosure contracts. This is actually advantageous because these contracts can be stipulated to last in perpituity, unlike patents which have a fixed expiration date. For example, the Coca Cola formula was never patented, its a proprietary recipe that relies on trade secret legislation to enforce secrecy.
>>VAV Life Sciences has developed a cold proprietary technology for the extraction of oil from chicken eggs which preserves the therapeutic property of the oil.
Protection of trade secret can, in principle, extend indefinitely and therefore may provide an advantage over patent protection, which lasts only for a specific period of time. Coca-Cola, for example, has no patent for its formula and has been very effective in protecting it for many more years than the twenty years of protection that a patent would have provided. In fact, Coca-Cola refused to reveal its trade secret under at least two judges' orders.[7] The disadvantage is that there is no protection once information protected as trade secret is uncovered by others through reverse engineering, for example, whereas patent has a guaranteed time of protection in exchange for disclosing the information to the public.
So there being no patent filed doesn't necessarily suggest something shady, in fact, it's pretty commonplace.
Regarding the burned infant pics. I noticed that too and it bugged me at first but then I looked more closely at the language used and saw that Vav Life never claimed that it was their egg oil (OLEOVA) that was used, only that an egg oil product had been used.
Which is technically correct. So to their credit they weren't misrepresenting that particular thing. That same article also cites a CHARISMON study, though not by name.
Finally, Vav Life Sciences has been around since 2003 and has developed a pretty good reputation by all accounts, they export most of their wares (90%) to the West and have been consistently growing and expanding since their inception, winning several awards along the way. They're actually a big enough company to warrant a Wikipedia article:
VAV Life Sciences Private Limited is an Indian company producing healthcare ingredients including lecithin and phospholipids, with products serving the food, nutrition, pharmaceuticals, cosmetics and drug delivery markets. In recognition of EYOVA hair Nutrient, it was awarded India's Best SME Innovation Award 2013 by Yes Bank & Business Today (business magazine).[1] The company also features in Dun & Bradstreet's list of leading SMEs of India 2014.[2]
Located with research and manufacturing facilities in Vasai (Thane district) near Mumbai, VAV Life Sciences along with its subsidiary VAV Lipids Private Limited, serves the global market with 90% of its sales outside India. In the pharmaceutical segment, VAV Life Sciences™ presence straddles four main therapeutic areas”hepatology, neurology, cardiovascular and oncology. The company is also building a new plant for pharmaceutical grade phospholipids at Ratnagiri, a coastal town of western India.[5]
So we're clearly talking about a respectably-sized and reputable biotech company here, not some fly-by-night scam operation, I really don't see them risking the loss of that hard-gained reputation by producing and promoting a product of questionable quality and efficacy, it would ruin their brand to do so.
Also note that they've recieved an award for their EYOVA product, which is essentially OLEOVA for hair, both are egg yolk oil products.
So, considering all the above I think its safe to assume that OLEOVA is the real deal, and I'm actually going to order a liter once I can scrape the money together and see what miracles it can do.
I have tried making egg oil myself but as you mention its a messy process with a ridiculously low yield, so if somebody else can do it better and more efficiently they can take my money.
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If you manage to get some for testing before I do. Please share how it worked out. Also thanks for sharing all of what you have. I really want to try it as well and even if it doesn't work. It won't be a big deal to me
I am going to do a test site first. If it heals with a scar. No big deal. Just another attempt that failed. Been there done that, but failures eventually lead to success. There's enough history on this oil to give it a try. Now going as far back as the 40's in publication form to prevent scaring and Acient Rome to be used on wounds to promote healing. It's worth a shot. What's one more scar... and if it works
Well hey wouldn't that be something.
My point is we don't need scarless healing to fix our scars, combining existing treatments that work with optimized healing and, above all, persistence should eventually yield a satisfactory result e.g. near-perfect skin that appears normal to everybody else. Apply some transparent primer and voila, even the micro-scarring is gone and you appear to have smooth, perfect skin.
We already know how to fill up icepicks/pores, we already know how to level out boxcar and rolling scars, we already know which biochemical actives yield spectacular healing results, we already have dozens of resurfacing options for finishing things up, we already have the solutions, although they're not in a neat, simple package.
Impatience prevents people from staying on the correct course, they feel a certain course of treatment is working "too slowly" so they foolishly stop and move onto something else, something that may actually be even less effective. And naturally, disappointment ensues.
Bottom line is this: the deeper and more pronounced your scarring is the longer it will take to fix it. It may take a couple of years, maybe more, other than excision there is no quick fix. But as those recent combination therapy studies have shown, it IS possible to gradually reverse atrophic scarring, at least in a significant number of patients.
Okay, show me ONE, just ONE example of someone who in the same photographs and lighting set up, frame, posture from a before and after pic has EVEN 60 (better than chance) improvement. JUST ONE.
Heh, I can show you more than just one. If you've been keeping up with the clinical studies you'll notice that combination therapies are the next big thing in treating acne scarring, essentially combining several different treatments that each effectively target a specific type of scarring/skin damage. When brought together they synergistically yield quite significant results, much more than any one treatment alone.
So let's see.
There's the Indian study that showed how multiple rounds of subcision + needling + TCA peeling yielded dramatic improvements in patient's scarring, with all ending up with significant reduction in scarring (by grade) and with some even managing to go from Grade 3 to Grade 0 e.g. no (atrophic) scarring.
Results:
Out of 16 patients with Grade 4 scars, 10 (62.5%) patients improved to Grade 2 and 6 (37.5%) patients improved to Grade 3 scars. Out of 22 patients with Grade 3 scars, 5 (22.7%) patients were left with no scars, 2 (9.1%) patients improved to Grade 1and 15 (68.2%) patients improved to Grade 2. All 11 (100%) patients with Grade 2 scars were left with no scars. There was high level of patient satisfaction.
And before you say "it's just swelling" please note that the results remained unchanged a year later.
At the end of 1-year of follow-up, it was observed that all the 49 patients sustained the level of improvement in their grade of scars which was attained at the end of the last procedure
So now a similar Pakistani study has been published, this time combining only subcision and needling. The lack of TCA peeling seems to have somewhat lessened the degree of improvement seen in the Indian study as only a handful of patients managed to achieve Grade 0:
Regarding grades of acne scar after 3 months of treatment, no patient could achieve grade 0 in group A (control) and 6 patients in group B (17.1%) achieved grade 0.
4 patients in group A (11.4%) remained in grade 4 while no patient remained in grade 4 in group B
However, while noting that:
Achieving grade 0 i-e complete recovery of acne scars is very difficult even if combination of treatment modalities is used
they can't say it is impossible because a handful of patients did manage to achieve that level of improvement. Furthermore, they logically suggest that:
If duration of study is extended beyond 3 months then even better results can be achieved in both groups
Meaning the more rounds of combination therapy you have the better your improvements. If Grade 4 scarring can be reduced to Grade 2 scarring in the space of 3-6 months (typical length of this type of study) then there is no reason why a further 3-6 months of the same shouldn't then reduce that Grade 2 scarring to Grade 0, especially if you're aiding the healing with collagen enhancers.
The reason why this approach seems to work so well was explained by noted acne scar specialist Dr Greg Goodman in his commentary on the Indian study:
Quite extraordinary results are seen here with minimally invasive techniques. One wonders why this particular combination of peels, subcision and needling was proven to be so effective, but the method of attacking the scars from a multitude of vantage points is probably the reason.
Added to this they have kept this barrage of insults going for many weeks inducing much scar remodeling. I really think this is breakthrough thinking and they should be congratulated.
Basically, by keeping your skin in a state of constant remodeling for an extended period of time by routinely injuring it in different ways, you're not letting the scars "settle" while the constant (over)production of collagen fills in the atrophied area, meaning that when you finally let up there's a significantly higher amount of collagen that's been deposited than there otherwise would be. And because all that "filler" is your own collagen, it is permanent, those gains are forever. It makes a lot of sense, which is always good.
Now, remember that they're not talking about the removal of scar tissue, only the reversal of atrophy, which is an important distinction to make. So even if you achieve Grade 0 for your atrophic acne scars you still likely won't have absolutely perfect skin there, only flat, smooth, non-pitted skin, there will probably still be a degree of demarcation apparent. That is where resurfacing comes in. Combine that with a potent healing agent like egg yolk oil or something similar and you should eventually be able to minimize the scar tissue and end up with something that's near-perfect or good enough that you won't be bothered anymore or, at the very worst, something that's quickly and easily covered up with make up for a flawless finish.
And if hydrogel ends up working then that resurfacing is easy and the skin will grow back perfectly and quite flawless.
I have around 60%+ improvement (with indents) and its been just under a year, some scars responded better than others. I still have a little ways to go before I'm satisfied with my scars, but they certainly don't bug me quite as much as before.
Wow, that's great man! And going by the above, all you really need to do to eventually achieve Grade 0 is just keep doing what you're doing, it might take a longer period of time to get there as you pass the notorious 70% mark (law of diminishing returns?) but if you can get 60% in a year then reaching 99% or even 100% in another year or so doesn't seem far-fetched at all, just be unrelenting and consistent.
If you manage to get some for testing before I do. Please share how it worked out. Also thanks for sharing all of what you have. I really want to try it as well and even if it doesn't work. It won't be a big deal to me
I am going to do a test site first. If it heals with a scar. No big deal. Just another attempt that failed. Been there done that, but failures eventually lead to success. There's enough history on this oil to give it a try. Now going as far back as the 40's in publication form to prevent scaring and Acient Rome to be used on wounds to promote healing. It's worth a shot. What's one more scar... and if it works
Will do! And I'm not basing my confidence in egg oil on just its traditional use and anecdotal history, the fact that several recent clinical studies have also demonstrated its efficacy is quite compelling to say the least.
Just curious, how to you plan on testing it? Are you first going to ablate the scar somehow? And is it a regular (linear) scar or an atrophic scar?
Factoid, I don't accept any of those results. The afterphotos in all the studies you cited above have dramatically different lighting and angles. WHO THE HELL DO THEY THINK THEIR FOOLING.
Now all of you know how the medical establishment publishes supposed breakthroughs and progress in peer reviewed studies, and the amount of blatant dishonesty. And thy would have been posting pics of their BEST RESULTS!!!! LOLOLOLOLOL
Now all of you can see for yourself. There isn't even 30 percent in improvement in ANY OF THOSE PHOTOS! I don't care what they said they'd achieved. Let's see the evidence. ALL BULLSHIT.
Factoid, I don't accept any of those results. The afterphotos in all the studies you cited above have dramatically different lighting and angles. WHO THE HELL DO THEY THINK THEIR FOOLING.
Pics are always going to be tricky. But fortunately, they weren't the sole arbiter of improvement:
Patients own evaluation of improvement was assessed.
There was high level of patient satisfaction.
The physician's analysis also correlated with the patient's assessment of improvement in scars with 12 (75%) patients with Grade 4 scars reporting improvement as very good, 8 (36.4%) patients with Grade 3 scars as excellent and 11 (100%) patients with Grade 2 scars as excellent with poor response reported by none of the patients.
So, as seen, the patients themselves also corroborated the excellent outcomes. Unless you want to argue they're also lying.
Now all of you know how the medical establishment publishes supposed breakthroughs and progress in peer reviewed studies, and the amount of blatant dishonesty. And thy would have been posting pics of their BEST RESULTS!!!! LOLOLOLOLOL
LOLOLOLOL ZOMG CONSPIRACY LOLOLOLOL. Yes, because they stand to make an INSANE amount of money by suggesting cheap combination therapy outperforms ridiculously expensive laser treatments. Makes perfect sense!
Anyway, the whole point of peer-review is that peers REVIEW and when necessary CRITICIZE published papers and in so doing weed the crap out. So if you think they're full of shit, by all means, submit a detailed rebuttal for publishing. We'll wait.
Now all of you can see for yourself. There isn't even 30 percent in improvement in ANY OF THOSE PHOTOS! I don't care what they said they'd achieved. Let's see the evidence. ALL BULLSHIT.
Why should anybody care what you think? Are you a qualified, licensed plastic surgeon or just a jaded conspiracy nut?
If you manage to get some for testing before I do. Please share how it worked out. Also thanks for sharing all of what you have. I really want to try it as well and even if it doesn't work. It won't be a big deal to me
I am going to do a test site first. If it heals with a scar. No big deal. Just another attempt that failed. Been there done that, but failures eventually lead to success. There's enough history on this oil to give it a try. Now going as far back as the 40's in publication form to prevent scaring and Acient Rome to be used on wounds to promote healing. It's worth a shot. What's one more scar... and if it works
Will do! And I'm not basing my confidence in egg oil on just its traditional use and anecdotal history, the fact that several recent clinical studies have also demonstrated its efficacy is quite compelling to say the least.
Just curious, how to you plan on testing it? Are you first going to ablate the scar somehow? And is it a regular (linear) scar or an atrophic scar?
I will remove an older inch long linear scar from the top side of my finger that I recieved from a knife/wood wittling accident 20 years ago. I will be using a double sided razor blade or simple pronged cuticle trimmer to remove/cut out the scar. I used a dremel sanding wheel on one of my nose scars before. It improved it a bit. If the oil works on the finger scar i will probably try the dremel sanding wheel on my nose scar again going deep enough this time to remove the entire scar from my nose before treating it with the oil. Gotta find a diamond graze-sp this time. I'll have to see how the finger works out first, before trying something more bold like that. Will it heal scar free will it also restore the tissues height. Only way to find out is by testing it. I also own a Kerr Labs Ultra Waxer. I can burn away scars with it if I can find a way to reheal the new wounds scar free. It has a temperature control feature. Goes from 100f to like 500f. 300 degrees f will burn the skin pretty deep in a matter of a few seconds. The other issue for me is weight lifting. I work out everyday. 4 weeks off to heal a wound is lost strength and lost gains. I didn't let my scars rule my life to a point where I stopped living it. I do other things now to build my self esteem and to be ready for the new life I may have if and when the cure for scars is found
I will remove an older inch long linear scar from the top side of my finger that I recieved from a knife/wood wittling accident 20 years ago. I will be using a double sided razor blade or simple pronged cuticle trimmer to remove/cut out the scar.
Woaaaaaaaah.....that sounds pretty gnarly, man. Needling is one thing, you're just creating tiny puncture wounds that quickly close up again but what you have in mind sounds like (minor) surgery, which is inherently more risky, and I don't mean the risk of further scarring but infection or even septic shock, which can totally kill you.
Are you going to be able to properly sterilize the blade/trimmer? How do you plan on suturing the wound? The patent filings mention how the oil was applied as the sutures were being sewn in.
Will it heal scar free will it also restore the tissues height. Only way to find out is by testing it.
I'm not certain that it will be able to restore lost tissue completely, it may just work on healing open wounds with minimal or no scar tissue, regeneration of an entire chunk of flesh might be asking too much.
I can burn away scars with it if I can find a way to reheal the new wounds scar free. It has a temperature control feature. Goes from 100f to like 500f. 300 degrees f will burn the skin pretty deep in a matter of a few seconds.
Haha, don't you feel pain at all??? Why don't you try doing a chemical burn instead? Something like 100% TCA will dissolve a fair bit of tissue but is also self-neutralizing so the worst you can do is end up with a scar. A TCA burn will also output an excess of collagen so its ideal for filling in atrophic scarring.
I don't see why a chemical burn would heal much differently than a regular burn, there's a good chance the oil would have a similar effect on both.
I will remove an older inch long linear scar from the top side of my finger that I recieved from a knife/wood wittling accident 20 years ago. I will be using a double sided razor blade or simple pronged cuticle trimmer to remove/cut out the scar.
Woaaaaaaaah.....that sounds pretty gnarly, man. Needling is one thing, you're just creating tiny puncture wounds that quickly close up again but what you have in mind sounds like (minor) surgery, which is inherently more risky, and I don't mean the risk of further scarring but infection or even septic shock, which can totally kill you.
Are you going to be able to properly sterilize the blade/trimmer? How do you plan on suturing the wound? The patent filings mention how the oil was applied as the sutures were being sewn in.
>Will it heal scar free will it also restore the tissues height. Only way to find out is by testing it.
I'm not certain that it will be able to restore lost tissue completely, it may just work on healing open wounds with minimal or no scar tissue, regeneration of an entire chunk of flesh might be asking too much.
I can burn away scars with it if I can find a way to reheal the new wounds scar free. It has a temperature control feature. Goes from 100f to like 500f. 300 degrees f will burn the skin pretty deep in a matter of a few seconds.
Haha, don't you feel pain at all??? Why don't you try doing a chemical burn instead? Something like 100% TCA will dissolve a fair bit of tissue but is also self-neutralizing so the worst you can do is end up with a scar. A TCA burn will also output an excess of collagen so its ideal for filling in atrophic scarring.
I don't see why a chemical burn would heal much differently than a regular burn, there's a good chance the oil would have a similar effect on both.
I've cut a pilomatrixoma-sp cyst out of my arm. The razor I'll be using should be safe and sterile - its a double sided cart blade for the older styled facial razors. I never thought about sutures or stitching- but I've done that to myself with human hair before, which might not have been sanitary, but at least I knew where it came from. I figure there may be no need to reclose the wound. The 3rd degree burn wounds on the mice were left untreated for the first 24 hours. I find that interesting and it didn't prevent the oil from working. As far as pain goes, I probably have a higher threshold than most.
I didn't find the study. See it on the prev pages.
I find a publication:
No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm actually kinda optimistic about it working, its just that even if it does work its going to be a few years yet until it becomes available for cosmetic applications, years which you could spend filling your scars up by other methods.
And even if it doesn't work, there are other options. The egg yolk oil looks promising and its available right now, there's no reason to lose hope.
No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm actually kinda optimistic about it working, its just that even if it does work its going to be a few years yet until it becomes available for cosmetic applications, years which you could spend filling your scars up by other methods.
And even if it doesn't work, there are other options. The egg yolk oil looks promising and its available right now, there's no reason to lose hope.
There has been a steady stream of publications on skin regeneration for years now.
I'm not sure about the egg yolk thing, but there are many universities and research groups actively looking into this and can be found in the dozens of links we have posted in this thread. There are plenty of fallbacks if hydrogel fails.